Grow up, Libertarians!

[arely staircase]

While libertarianism as a philosophy is superficial, juvenile nonsense, particular libertarian proposals are sometimes worthwhile on their merits. The seastead and charter cities movements are examples. If libertarians want to move to converted offshore oil platforms or multinational-owned company towns in the jungles of Central America, I for one will wish them well.

http://www.salon.com/2013/06/13/grow_up_libertarians/

[Savannahmann]

1. Strange

I always thought we could reach agreement with the Libertarians on several issues. For example, legalizing drugs. While I'm not sure I'm on board with the idea of legalizing PCP, Meth, Cocaine, and the other hard drugs. I am sure that many liberals can agree that legalizing marijuana would be a great thing nationally. http://www.bryansr.com/legalize-marijuana-a-libertarian-point-of-view/

GLBT rights. Again, Liberals are almost universally in agreement with the Libertarians on this issue. The Libertarians claim to have reached the conclusions first, but that is a debate for another time. In this instance, and ally on the issue is all I want, and I can disagree later on other issues like Government Responsibility and scope etc. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian_perspectives_on_LGBT_rights

So right there are two issues in which we could reach agreement with, and mutually support each other. We would never agree on Gun issues, and we could never agree on many other social issues. But are we so ideologically pure that we must throw any potential allies overboard because they don't agree with us on this issue or that position?

Agree to work with the more Libertarian members of congress towards those goals, when we reach them, then we can see if we agree on anything else. If we don't, wish them well, and move on to another issue, and get the damned problems fixed.

[arely staircase]

2. libertarians are for leaving drug laws and gay rights up to the states

on the first that may be fine but not the second

[Savannahmann]

3. At least with that to start with,

We can debate and negotiate and find a common ground to make it nationwide. With a hard blue dog dem, or a RW DB, we have no common ground to move from.

[arely staircase]

5. if libertarians had there way Texas' sodomy law would still be on the books

I have no use for them.

[Savannahmann]

7. I have issues with some of the Libertarian platform.

But that is nonsense. From the article I linked.

Repeal of all laws regarding consensual sexual acts between adults (with the age of consent reasonably defined). This would include abolition of laws prohibiting prostitution and solicitation, whether gay or straight.
Repeal of legislation prohibiting unions between members of the same sex, and the extension to such unions of all legal rights and privileges presently enjoyed by partners in heterosexual marriages.
An end to the use of loitering statutes and entrapment procedures as a means of harassing gays and prostitutes.
An end to the collection by government agencies of data on the sexual preferences of individuals.
Elimination of regulations specifying homosexuality as a justification for denying or revoking state licenses (for doctors, lawyers, teachers, hairdressers, etc.).
Repeal of laws prohibiting cross-dressing.
Recognition of the right of a homosexual parent to be considered for custody of his or her natural child, and of the child to choose the homosexual parent as guardian.
Elimination of laws specifying homosexuality as grounds for denying the right of adoption.
Equality of treatment of gay people in regard to government service, including particularly membership in the armed forces.
End the usage of zoning and loitering laws to harass gay people and gay-owned businesses.
Equal treatment for gay immigrants.
End government sanctioned closing of gay bathhouses.


Now, I've spoken with several Libertarians, defined as more than one. They are pretty consistent in the ideals of personal freedom. I absolutely disagree with many of their platform issues. But I can not find fault for their support of GLBT rights. I mentioned Guns before, and I could move right along to public financing of education, public expenditure for the arts, public funded health care, aka single payer. I could go on and on with issue I disagree with them on. But for the ones where they are in agreement with me, even if our logic and reasons are very different, I'll take any ally I can get for the issue.

[arely staircase]

11. so why didn't you post the very next paragraph in that article?

"The brochure then went onto explain that libertarians opposed efforts to prohibit private sector discrimination because people have the right to be wrong, and that peaceful persuasion was the better method to deal with prejudice than civil rights legislation."

so if a landlord wanted to deny housing to a gay couple the libertarians would back the landowner.

[Savannahmann]

14. Again, I don't agree with everything.

But if I can get support from any corner to expand the civil rights for GLBT community in any way, I'll take it. Even if they don't agree with me on my entire position, I'll take the small victory, and move forward with it. We didn't get single payer out of the ACA, but we got an improvement, and that is better than what we had.

Right now, there are some 1,100 laws that discriminate against GLBT people. If I can use the Libertarians to get rid of even half of those, then I'll take the support for that. Because each law that we repeal, or revise, is a victory for people who have been discriminated against for far too long. My point of view is one of Civil Rights. Theirs is reduction of Government interference. Take the help for the issues you can, and then wish them well. Libertarians are never going to be a major political force because of a number of reasons. But every little bit of help on those issues we care about means we move our agenda forward.

Refusing to take the potential win on some of what we want, because of a determination to denounce, is cutting off your nose in spite of your face to quote my Grandmother.

I don't think I'd support legalization of the hard drugs, and I would not support continuation of the criminalization of Marijuana. But on that one minor issue, give me any allies I can get. After we get marijuana decriminalized, lets talk and consider the rest. Perhaps they have a point I have not considered.

Again, my focus and my guiding principle is Civil Rights. Theirs is individual liberty. We aren't going to intersect often, but when we do, we should not eschew the support of any group. Shit. If the Catholic Church came out in favor of a Civil Liberty issue I cared about I'd say welcome aboard. And I have very little use for any Religious Organization.

[arely staircase]

16. problem is that private citizens deny the rights of other citizens too

like in the case of the landlord. anyone who would back the landlord or oppose a law to prevent him from doing so is not advancing civil rights.

[Luminous Animal]

12. The campaign against prop 8 welcomed the help of individual libertarians and

libertarian organizations. Are you saying that we should have barred them from participating?

[arely staircase]

17. no of course not

nt

[Luminous Animal]

18. Then why are you giving Savannahman such grief...

Here is what he said:
"Agree to work with the more Libertarian members of congress towards those goals, when we reach them, then we can see if we agree on anything else. If we don't, wish them well, and move on to another issue, and get the damned problems fixed."

[arely staircase]

19. what grief?

he is perfectly capable of defending libertarianism but I don't have to agree with it.

[Luminous Animal]

21. I don't see Savannahman defending libertarianism. I see him...

defending coalition work on areas where liberals need the assist. I, as an atheist and a member of the LGBTQ community, have worked with religious homophobes on poor people's issues (not charity - which I think is bullshit - but rather, economic justice) but I didn't sign on to the rest.

[Luminous Animal]

22. Then you are okay with Glenn Greenwald writing a paper on drug decriminalization for the Cato Inst.

[arely staircase]

24. CATO and Greenwald are a perfect fit

why would I have a problem with it?

[Luminous Animal]

25. Really. Greenwald, who believes in Medicare, Social Security, public funding of elections,

that corporations wield too much power, in the public option for health care and raised money for Democratic candidates (including Russ Feindgold) fits right in with the Cato Inst.

Really.

[onehandle]

6. Libertarians are Right-Wing Republicans, who don't want pesky laws getting in their way.

At least that's what they are now.

[arely staircase]

10. you have problems with "some" of the Libertarian platform?

what do you think about medicare?

[Luminous Animal]

20. I'm on board for marjuana legalization and personal use decriminalization for all others.

Portugal decriminalized not legalized drug use to the entire country's benefit. It has saved oodles of money on incarceration and drug use has decreased. (See Glenn Greenwald's white paper on this. I can't give a link because he did it for the Cato Inst. and many DUers would try to smear me and Greenwald for providing one - but google Greenwald Portugal and you'll find a great study.)

[LeftInTX]

4. And as for your Social Security checks, I'm sure you won't have any need for them

And maybe even having a social security number or a driver's license is a bad idea. The govt could find out a lot about you from that. Oh and if you go to the doctor an office staffer may just leak your medical records to your employer or something. So, if you don't want that to happen you better not allow medical records to be stored at their office. And what if a corrupt teller at a bank leaks a bunch of stuff about your accounts? Well, the government won't be able to help you cuz you've made it small enough to drown in a bath tub.

[disidoro01]

8. Isn't it

worthwhile to reject the democratic notion that we should bomb wedding parties in other countries? To reject the democratic belief that we must dismantle our civil liberties in this country? How democratic is it to have a pay for play system where the elite buy all of this power over our lives. Libertarians seem to be cast as the greatest evil in existence and that amazes me. It simply amazes me how people on this forum are either silent or cheer when we murder innocent people because they gathered in large groups.
If we are going to use these blanket insults against any who profess to be or support aspects of the libertarian, I say i should be able to ask any democrat why they believe it's right to kill innocent 10 year olds who are simply celebrating a wedding in Pakistan. Fair is fair right?
The left and the right bludgeon those who do not march in lockstep yet neither side tries to fix what is broken. As long as President Obama is bombing those wedding parties, it's ok. Or, if it isn't ok, we'll just keep quiet.
Your democracy looks pretty crappy right now, forgive me if I look for another way. I don't want the blood of our soldiers on my conscience anymore, I don't want the blood of innocent men, women and children on my conscience anymore, I don't want indefinite detention to be in my vocabulary anymore, I don't want police state and united states to be used together anymore. Afghanistan, Iraq, Egypt, Libya, and look out Syria, here we come. President Obama isn't responsible for starting this, but he is continuing it. I expected him to be better, why am I the jerk now that he really isn't showing to be better? now, he'll arm Al-qaeda affiliates in much the same way George HW Bush did in the lates 1980's. I wonder when this will turn around on us?

[octoberlib]

9. Charter cities are pure fascism and are a horrible idea. nt

[OneGrassRoot]

13. I found this truth-out article so interesting re: libertarianism

http://truth-out.org/opinion/item/16856-the-impossible-community-an-interview-with-john-p-clark-on-grassroots-revolution

The term “libertarian” was invented in New Orleans in the 1850’s by the French anarchist philosopher Joseph Déjacque. While he was here, Déjacque wrote his most important work, L’Humanisphère, and an important letter to Proudhon, the most famous anarchist thinker of the time. Despite their agreement in opposing the centralized state, Déjacque harshly criticized Proudhon on two grounds, first, for his sexism and support for patriarchy, and secondly, for his belief that the contribution of each individual to the value of a product could be determined. For Déjacque, true freedom requires the abolition of all historic forms of domination, including, obviously, the age-old system of domination of women by men. It also requires that production and distribution be designed to fulfill the needs of all, rather than being based on a spurious individualist theory of value and entitlement. Déjacque concluded in his letter that because of Proudhon's acceptance of patriarchy and economic injustice, he was not a true libertaire or libertarian.

Déjacque’s analysis also explains the meaning of anarchism in its deepest sense. This is discussed in the chapter of The Impossible Community entitled “Against Principalities and Powers.” Anarchism is not merely an opposition to coercion or to any particular form of domination, such as the centralized state. Rather, it is the quest for freedom from all forms of domination—capitalism, the state, patriarchy, racial and ethnic oppression, bureaucratic and technological domination, gender and sex role oppression, and the domination of other species and of nature.

[MattBaggins]

15. The problem with their Islands is they want to have it both ways

They actually expect to have full business and legal rights in other countries with none of the responsibility.

They think they should be allowed to make a living in the US during the day, but sleep on these private islands at night with no obligations to the countries they leech off of.

[Drew Richards]

23. Kinda like our corporations do to us today...