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A president presides over an invasive surveillance program. A whistleblower leaks information about it. The program exists, as we already knew. The documents leaked provide additional information, some of it unknown beforehand.
In considering whether the program is necessary, useful or legal I ask you this:
What difference does it make whether you like or trust either the president or the whistleblower?
Am I wrong to think the answer "lots" is an answer people should be ashamed to give? You'd find yourself pouncing on lies on a dude's resume while in the next breath you justify lies an administration official told to Congress. You'd have nothing to say about the program itself, just the personalities involved.
Exaggerating a scoop, falsely burnishing your leaker heroism - these are acts that can be readily discovered to the public. The same is not true of the leaked documents, or the nature of the surveillance program.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)that's where you are going off the rails..
jpgray
(27,831 posts)I don't think it makes much difference in the debate on whether the program itself is useful, necessary, or legal.
thucythucy
(8,047 posts)about the program, and not wild speculation, distortions, and exaggerations.
I'm waiting for more documents, more details. I'm troubled by the NSA warrant, but then again I've been troubled since the Patriot Act was passed. My hope is that we can amend or even repeal it, and start over, crafting something that meets security needs without compromising civil liberties. FISA as well--the NSA warrant seems a huge step beyond what was originally intended, and I'm hoping that aspect of this story at least will be argued in the courts. Then again, it was a court that granted the warrant, so it all becomes very convoluted, very circular.
We need a competent, thorough, clear-minded analysis of where we are, how we got here, and where to go from here. The problem is, who does the investigation? I certainly don't want a Ken Starr style circus. I certainly don't trust House Republicans, who chair all the investigating committees. Perhaps a Senate investigation chaired by Senator Warren, but I doubt that will happen -- she hasn't got the seniority. So the question then is: how does this get done?
But to answer your specific comments, from what I've seen the NSA program is "legal"--which to me makes it so unsettling. The warrant was issued by the court, presumably after some review. "Useful" or "necessary" are arguable, and I'm not willing to make a call on those until I see more.
BTW--I think the name-calling on DU these last few days has been dreadful, as have all the straw man arguments. I'd ask folks to refrain from these as best they can.
jpgray
(27,831 posts)I think if you polled the participants of the huge mud-slinging threads on whether they think the Patriot Act is good law that should remain in force, "no" would be the overwhelming answer. Exaggerations on both sides apart, there seems to be a lot of common ground here that is just not being expressed.
n2doc
(47,953 posts)There will never, never, be a clear and complete listing of what has been done or what is being done. It is all shrouded in security and on a 'need to know basis'.
Frankly, the only way we have seen as much as we have is through leaks and pressure. If they had not happened it would all be business as usual and "what they don't know won't hurt them".
thucythucy
(8,047 posts)that seems incapable of doing its job.
In the 1970s, in the wake of revelations about Watergate, COINTELPRO, and other abuses, there was an examination of the excesses and an attempt to set some limits. There were even lawsuits brought by the victims of extra-legal surveillance and dirty tricks, and damage awards. With the election of Reagan we began to step back from those limits, and with the Patriot Act they seem to have pretty much disappeared all together.
If we had an opposition party that wasn't as corrupt, venal, and dishonest as the GOP, we might get such an investigation and tangible result. And if we had a Senate leader with some vision, we might get one as well. What we need is someone with the intelligence, political savvy, and patriotism of a Sam Ervin or Frank Church or George McGovern. And who knows, maybe someone will step up to the challenge.
The underlying problem, as I see it, is this:
No Democratic president will be willing to take the chance on exposing or cutting back the national security state, as long as a successful terrorist attack anywhere near the scale of 9-11 remains possible. If such a horror were to happen, the Republicans would run on "the Democrat failure to protect us" and "soft on terrorism" until 2050--much as they ran on "Who lost China?" and "Democrats are soft on communism" in the 40s, 50s, 60s, 70s, and 80s.
Meanwhile, most Republicans are just fine and dandy with an expanding national security state--it fills the coffers of their major donors, among other uses.
The best outcome of the Snowden leaks would be for President Obama to use this controversy to start scaling back the national security state, just as he's tried (however slowly and tentatively) to get us out of the "war on terror" mindset. This would seem to me to be as good an opportunity as he's going to get.
Whether or not anything like this will happen, I have of course no way of knowing. Meanwhile, all I can do at the moment is contact my Congress people and WH with my concerns, wait for more information, and see what happens.
If you have any other suggestions on a possible course of action, please let me know.
zeemike
(18,998 posts)No matter what law you pass to violate the constitution...and in fact that is the purpose of a constitution is to set some rules that you may not go beyond...dictatorships come about when there are no limits to what laws can be made.
And the forth amendment is not ambiguous at all...
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
marions ghost
(19,841 posts)This is a serious test of whether America is still a democracy. A watershed moment.
You can tell by how many people don't want to see this in unequivocal terms.
thucythucy
(8,047 posts)is that it conforms to laws passed by the Congress, interpreted by the courts, and enforced by the executive, as per the first three articles of the constitution.
Congress passed the FISA law and the Patriot Act, and the US Supreme Court has ruled that both are constitutional, hence, for the moment at least, both are legal under our system of government. Unless you have some magic decoder ring or hold regular seances with the founding fathers, what is in place now is the law of the land and will remain so until the Congress changes the law, or the courts over rule it.
If the ACLU suits or others get to the Supreme Court, and the laws are overturned, then the NSA action becomes unconstitutional and hence illegal. Until then, like it or not, it's legal.
You can post the fourth amendment all you want, and put whatever part of it you want in bold, but for the moment those are the simple facts.
clarice
(5,504 posts)VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)but don't seem to have a problem with all these wealthy multinational companies having so much information on them...that's my problem with this story...
clarice
(5,504 posts)sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)What do you think of Democrats continuing Bush policies, which the president stated clearly last week? What do you think of Democrats defending a Republican who lied to Congress?
Did you support Bush's surveillance programs, the ones the President has stated he 'kept'?
If you voted for Democrats did you expect to see Republicans re-installed to powerful positions, or did you vote for DEMOCRATS to throw Republicans OUT?
Why do we have Republicans in a Democratic Administration?
Why is Clapper, a real Bush guy, Director of Intelligence? Did you trust him when Bush was in the WH?
ctsnowman
(1,903 posts)thanks for the post.
Plucketeer
(12,882 posts)Folks can spin it how they want, but we were LIED to - flat out - thru the last two presidential elections. At least with the GOP candidates, we were told just HOW they were gonna screw us.
allin99
(894 posts)'why was it not okay when gw did it and it's okay now'. and so far it's the question no one answers.
"Why do we have Republicans in a Democratic Administration?"
Another attempt at bipartisanship?
"Best man for the job"?
Really just a case of those really in power keeping the right players in place?
....
Win?!?!
7962
(11,841 posts)sibelian
(7,804 posts)reusrename
(1,716 posts)It's the freaking definition of a whistleblower!
Besides, it's the right thing to do.
It isn't even a close call.
I am astounded people have so much trouble with it.
tavalon
(27,985 posts)Every time you have the urge to argue about the people, just repeat to yourself, "the important thing to focus on is the massive surveillance state being created." It's a long mantra but very, very important.
frazzled
(18,402 posts)Apparently, what Greenwald is trying to sell as PRISM's "direct access" to Internet servers is not at all what he's leading you to believe it is.
See this thread: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023013943
And these articles:
http://thedailybanter.com/2013/06/snowden-and-greenwald-beginning-to-self-destruct-the-nation-and-mother-jones-raise-questions/
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/06/12/heres-everything-we-know-about-prism-to-date/
jpgray
(27,831 posts)frazzled
(18,402 posts)In all but its name, and before FISA warrants were put into place as an oversight; the beginnings of the program, despite its lack of a formal name.
2004 In what would become one of the most famous moments of the Bush Administration, presidential aides Andrew Card and Alberto Gonzales show up at the hospital bed of John Ashcroft. Their purpose? To convince the seriously ill attorney general to sign off on the extension of a secret domestic spying program. Ashcroft refuses, believing the warrantless program to be illegal.
The hospital showdown was first reported by the New York Times, but two years later Newsweek provided more detail, describing a program that sounds similar to the one the Guardian revealed this week. The NSA, Newsweek reported citing anonymous sources, collected without court approval vast quantities of phone and email metadata "with cooperation from some of the countrys largest telecommunications companies" from "tens of millions of average Americans." The magazine says the program itself began in September 2001 and was shut down in March 2004 after the hospital incident. But Newsweek also raises the possibility that Bush may have found new justification to continue some of the activity.
2005 The Times, over the objections of the Bush Administration, reveals that since 2002 the government monitored the international telephone calls and international e-mail messages of hundreds, perhaps thousands, of people inside the United States without warrants. The program involves actually listening in on phone calls and reading emails without seeking permission from the FISA Court.
http://projects.propublica.org/graphics/surveillance-timeline
Read the rest of the timeline for actions taken in 2006, 7, and 8 to change the Patriot Act and, also, FISA courts putting more limitations on Bush admin. surveillance.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)Learn of it until today. Given the long history, going back to '48, I understand why you may think you knew of it.
Here
http://www.eastcountymagazine.org/node/13410
frazzled
(18,402 posts)Overriding all the national journalists and computer and security experts who are contesting this idea of "direct access." But go ahead. San Diego rules, I guess.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)That is a novel attack
Oh and go read this
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jun/14/nsa-partisanship-propaganda-prism
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)Corporate media who has any memory of the past decade or so.
International journalists however, are reporting facts and it appears you are wrong. The MSM is the last place to go if you want facts. I thought we all knew this. Well, we did when Bush was president..
Hekate
(90,645 posts)Ashcroft's refusal to go along with Gonzales in that moment was one of the few times I ever felt respect for the man.
I wonder when amnesia set in for so many DUers? Oh yes, I remember that too. It was when Barack Obama first sat in the Oval Office.
BUSH/CHENEY >spit<
Cha
(297,154 posts)said "the US has been hacking China since 2009".
Hekate
(90,645 posts)They are always testing, testing. And the US certainly gets the Dimwit of the Century Award for allowing outsourcing of the manufacture of defense-related components and infrastructure-related electronics to China.
I really object to the constant surveillance of Americans by, well, everyone and everything. It's like in everyone's mind privacy and anonymity are so 20th Century. That ship has sailed. There are supposedly controls and safeguards regarding government actions, but where are the safeguards for the actions of corporations? In fact, where is even the awareness by citizens as they morph into consumers who just want their shiny toys to keep them connected 24/7?
The whole issue of landing it all on Obama is bullshit, though, just bullshit.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)as he was involved even before this guy went to work at Booz Allen Hamilton.
villager
(26,001 posts)truebluegreen
(9,033 posts)Practicing journalism = conspiracy to commit treason?
News flash: no, it doesn't.
tblue
(16,350 posts)The last thing we need is a bunch of nosy investigative journalists telling us things we'd rather not think about. They're the problem. Off with their heads! No news is good news!!! USA! USA! USA!
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)How about investigating War Criminals, and Wall St. Criminals? Last I heard we were not denying they committed crimes, at least the War Criminals, we decided it was 'best to move forward' rather than apply the rule of law.
Lol, and you want to start prosecuting JOURNALISTS? In a country where the rule of law does not apply to the 1%?
I've seen it all now.. Remember HB Gary?? Their schemes to silence journalists, in particular Glenn Greenwald were exposed by Anonymous.
You know a real journalist when all sides with something to hide, hate him and want to silence him. Bush fans hated him too and suggested just what you suggested.
In a way, that would probably be a good thing. It would be the last straw for most Americans already uneasy about the direction in which their country is going. Start prosecuting journalists. The SC already ruled on this, btw.
woo me with science
(32,139 posts)We have now reached the point of outright advocacy of destroying the free press that is and was designed to be our main defense against government abuse and tyranny.
http://www.democracynow.org/2013/6/12/is_edward_snowden_a_hero_a
NERMEEN SHAIKH: Chris Hedges, one of the problems that people have pointed to is that there arent procedures or mechanisms in place for people within the government to point out wrongdoing when it does occur. Do you think thats one of the problems thats occurred in this case with Edward Snowden? Or, for that matter, your most recent article was on Army whistleblower, Private Bradley Manning.
CHRIS HEDGES: Well, we used to have a mechanism. It was called the press. And we used to be able to tell our sources that they would be protected and that they would not be investigated for providing information that exposed the inner workings of power. Unfortunately, the press, like most institutions in this country, and I would add the legal profession, has largely collapsed under this corporate coup détat thats taken place and is no longer functioning. And I want to get back, that what this is fundamentally a debate about is whether we are going to have, through the press, an independent institution within this country that can examine the inner workings of power or not. And it is nowI mean, many of us had suspected this widespread surveillance, but now that its confirmed, were seeingyou know, why did Snowden come out publicly? Well, because I think he knew that they would find out anyway, because they have all of Glenn Greenwalds email, phone records and everything else, and they can very quickly find out who he was speaking to and whether Snowden had contact with him. And thatyou know, I speak as reporteris terrifying, because it essentially shuts down any ability to counter the official propaganda and the official narrative and expose the crimes. And we have seen in the last few years tremendous crimes being committed by those in power. We have no ability now to investigate them.
....
CHRIS HEDGES: Well, were talking about the death of a free press, the death of a civil society. This is far beyond a reasonable debate. We make the East German Stasi state look like the Boy Scouts. And if we dont wrest back this power for privacy, for the capacity to investigate what our power elite is doing, I think we can essentially say our democracy has been snuffed out.
ljm2002
(10,751 posts)Please see this post by Greenwald regarding claims that his story is inaccurate:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jun/14/nsa-partisanship-propaganda-prism
Here is a relevant excerpt -- although the whole piece is well worth reading:
The Guardian has not revised any of our article and, to my knowledge, has no intention to do so. That's because we did not claim that the NSA document alleging direct collection from the servers was true; we reported - accurately - that the NSA document claims that the program allows direct collection from the companies' servers. Before publishing, we went to the internet companies named in the documents and asked about these claims. When they denied it, we purposely presented the story as one of a major discrepancy between what the NSA document claims and what the internet companies claim
Egalitarian Thug
(12,448 posts)LondonReign2
(5,213 posts)From Greenwald:
"Democratic partisans have raised questions about only one of the stories - the only one that happened to be also published by the Washington Post (and presumably vetted by multiple Post editors and journalists) - in order to claim that an alleged inaccuracy in it means our journalism in general is discredited.
They are wrong. Our story was not inaccurate. The Washington Post revised parts of its article, but its reporter, Bart Gellman, stands by its core claims ("From their workstations anywhere in the world, government employees cleared for PRISM access may 'task' the system and receive results from an Internet company without further interaction with the company's staff" .
The Guardian has not revised any of our articles and, to my knowledge, has no intention to do so. That's because we did not claim that the NSA document alleging direct collection from the servers was true; we reported - accurately - that the NSA document claims that the program allows direct collection from the companies' servers. Before publishing, we went to the internet companies named in the documents and asked about these claims. When they denied it, we purposely presented the story as one of a major discrepancy between what the NSA document claims and what the internet companies claim"
reusrename
(1,716 posts)and here's a little kick for truth:
Response to jpgray (Original post)
seaglass This message was self-deleted by its author.
Dash87
(3,220 posts)I don't get it either. Why are Snowden's motives or his ethics relevant to discussing the NSA surveillance program?
Isn't this nothing more than an attempt to shoot the messenger so that the message does not get out?
bobduca
(1,763 posts)All the usual suspects from way back, marching in lockstep, rigged juries. Just like in real life!
Whiskeytide
(4,461 posts)... It IS. I've been conflicted as Hell over the whole thing!
Snowden did something that brought this to the forefront of our country's attention cycle. Depending on your perspective, mood, whether you've had your coffee, or whatever, that could be brave, stupid, corrupt, criminal, altruistic, selfish, treasonous, opportunistic, naive, heroic or a hundred other adjectives. Or some of all of them! Why isn't it allowable for me to see it from multiple sides?
The program is clearly contrary to our traditional notions of constitutional privacy! But its arguably - and probably - legal under the law, so no one's going to jail! "It's unconstitutional, damn it"!! "No, it's perfectly legal, damn it". "You're BOTH right, damn it"!
It's bad enough the corporate entities already have it, but worse that the government is also getting it. Wait, do I have that backwards? Shit, I don't know anymore!
"They are invading my privacy". "You shouldn't have expected privacy". "Yes, I should have!" "No, you shouldn't have!" "Yes" "No" "Yes" "No" "Yes" "No" "Yes" "No" "Maybe I did" "You probably shouldn't have". "I thought I could" "I can see how you did". But it never seems to get to that last part, does it?
"You're missing the point". "No, YOU are". "But, that's not MY point". "Well, it was mine". "Look at that poster, she's missing BOTH our points". "Awww Hell, what's the point".
I'm pissed that a democratic administration is involved. WAYYYYY pissed! But I also know a Republican administration would be worse - in many ways both related and unrelated to the surveillance program!! If this hangs an electoral albatross around the democrats in 2014 and 2016, what price will the country pay!? Is it okay for me to be pissed at Obama, but still support democrats because, as someone pointed out yesterday, if democrats lose, the country loses??
Wanting something to be black and white doesn't make it so. I, for one, can read an "Its no big deal" post and say, "okay, I get that and it does make sense". Then, I can read a "This is the worst shit since 80's pop music" post, and just as easily think "damn, that's a good point, too". If I want to bounce back and forth over this, who is anyone else to say that makes me a bad democrat???
This IS a turning point in our collective understanding of our government and society. I do believe that. Where we go from this is likely to affect generations. In some ways tolerable, and in many ways maybe not so much. But the baby is in the bathwater, and we have to figure out how to deal with that conflict.
Someone should start a "Chime in if you don't know HOW you feel about this shit" thread.
Sorry for the rant!
Lifelong Protester
(8,421 posts)And I think I pay attention reasonably well-imagine what the average Joe or Joelle is thinking(or more than likely not thinking...about this).
I could not agree more-it is conflicting and complicated. And I do not know when I have seen more name-calling or shouting on this board.
tblue
(16,350 posts)of this much information about individual American citizens. Even if I did, this surveillance might have been started with the best intentions, but then there's a real fast slippery slope that goes in only one direction. This program will be used to neutralize whoever is a threat to the people who collect or use this intelligence. If it's not happening under Obama, it will happen under somebody. Remember in Fahrenheit 911 when it was some little peace group that was infiltrated? I think we all need to watch that film again.
I agree. I didn't like it then, don't like now. But I do not jump to conclusions without a thorough review of all the facts. I became a member of DU because I saw a group of individuals who engaged in intelligent discussions. The last couple of days I have felt as if I was on a right wing website, what with all of the name calling, paranoia and jumping to conclusion without facts.
Number23
(24,544 posts)of hair on fire foolishness that has become DU's go to reaction for ANYTHING that involves this president.
The last couple of days I have felt as if I was on a right wing website, what with all of the name calling, paranoia and jumping to conclusion without facts.
Agree.
barbtries
(28,787 posts)Hekate
(90,645 posts)It is as confusing as hell. One thing I know for certain: It did not start with Barack Obama. How I feel about the rest is very difficult to live with. I am still waiting for more facts, while DU goes through various iterations of rage, hair on fire, indignation, etc., sometimes aimed at one person, then another, then another.
I've been sad for my country for so long now. Through Nixon, Reagan, through Bush and Bush/Cheney, and now this. The current debacle isn't even about Obama: it started long before him, and will endure long after he leaves office.
Rant on.
Scuba
(53,475 posts)NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)has been handled by many. I will bring it around to my thoughts on Assange. I have come to truly dislike the man. The more I read the less I like him. Yet I will always be grateful to him for wikileaks. What he has done there is very special to all people in the world. I don't think we will ever fully grasp the level of fear he has set in the minds of the abusive, oppressive, and powerful.
I can have a negative opinion on the guy who leaked these documents. All of us can if we want. That in itself has nothing to do with the bigger issue. It is much more important to vet the information released. If he is good or bad is of no importance to me. I do not live with him. The validity of his information is important to all of us.
nineteen50
(1,187 posts)documents the names are words.
michigandem58
(1,044 posts)It certainly smells like he has an agenda as he manufactures this "crisis".
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)They have an agenda. They supported Bush's agenda. Did you want Republicans in power when you voted for Democrats? I certainly didn't, I don't trust Republicans or I would have voted for them myself.
We are now defending a Clapper, a Bush pal, the Director of Intelligence, who just got finished lying to Congress. Not that a Republican lying to Congress is anything new. Why is a Bush guy Director of Intelligence? Is that what we voted for when we voted for Democrats?
If Snowden has an agenda because he supported a Republican (at least he couldn't appoint him to Director of Intelligence) then what do you think Obama's agenda is for not just supporting Republicans but putting them back in positions of power AFTER we threw them out??
Enquiring minds are confused by all of this!
zeemike
(18,998 posts)In case you get caught with some truth, you can just throw it in the bag with the shit and claim it is shit too....no one wants to look through the bag.
sibelian
(7,804 posts)... or a Rupaul supporter or a rape oil supporter or a ripe eel supporter F. F. S.
Jesus CHRIST how much more of this silliness can be generated...
IF RON PAUL SUPPORTS KITTENS DOES THAT MEAN I'M NOT ALLOWED TO SUPPORT KITTENS?
michigandem58
(1,044 posts)Paul and his ilk will do anything to try and take down a Democrat. The political agenda certainly matters.
frylock
(34,825 posts)michigandem58
(1,044 posts)against the administration?
frylock
(34,825 posts)muriel_volestrangler
(101,307 posts)The political preferences of the person who transmitted them is not important. He didn't write them.
uponit7771
(90,335 posts)sibelian
(7,804 posts)That's cold, man.
uponit7771
(90,335 posts)...shouldn't matter a bit in this case /sarcasm
Maedhros
(10,007 posts)He provides a rebuttal to your position.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jun/14/nsa-partisanship-propaganda-prism
"How can anyone think that it's remotely healthy in a democracy to have the NSA building a massive spying apparatus about which even members of Congress, including Senators on the Homeland Security Committee, are totally ignorant and find "astounding" when they learn of them? How can anyone claim with a straight face that there is robust oversight when even members of the Senate Intelligence Committee are so constrained in their ability to act that they are reduced to issuing vague, impotent warnings to the public about what they call radical "secret law" enabling domestic spying that would "stun" Americans to learn about it, but are barred to disclose what it is they're so alarmed by? Put another way, how can anyone contest the value and justifiability of the stories that we were able to publish as a result of Edward Snowden's whistleblowing: stories that informed the American public - including even the US Congress - about these incredibly consequential programs? What kind of person would think that it would be preferable to remain in the dark - totally ignorant - about them?"
Egalitarian Thug
(12,448 posts)we all have to begin supporting child slavery?
DC is all one Big Show, it's how they keep us watching the inconsequential shit while they loot the nation.
michigandem58
(1,044 posts)and we should be of a Paul supporter as well.
Egalitarian Thug
(12,448 posts)once in a while, but that still doesn't make it wrong.
Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)Congress voted to fund the building of that,...but not this:
Priorities, jpgray.
....priorities....
DevonRex
(22,541 posts)He proved that right out in the open, right out of the gate way back when he tried to enlist. And again now.
Except for the one document he released, all people are going on about the TWO programs is what he has said. But he cannot be trusted. Credibility IS the issue.
allin99
(894 posts)the ACLU has another crack at the expanded surveillence programs, and that's good enough for me. Who gives a s--t about this guy snowden? i feel bad that he's ruined his life but i'm more concerned with the programs that GWB created that i didn't like then and don't like now. We have another shot at fighting expanded surveillence, why people are opposed to that is beyond me. (i mean, we all know why all the sudden some people are pushing back on scrutiny of GWB's surveillence practices but it's pretty disgusting watching people who say they are liberals switching sides on this. You should see the Aclu page on fb, people all the sudden saying their wrong to sue the u.s. over the program. it's turning quite bizarre, Not everyone mind you, but you'll see people claiming the aclu is suing b/c obama is black, b/c they're affiliated with fox, etc. They sued over it in 2006 and everyone was all for it. and now? something about snowden. i don't get it.
We all know full well if this was GWB in the WH at the time democrats would oppose it.
baldguy
(36,649 posts)Because having the govt receiving metadata from Verizon, AT&T and Google is **BAD**!!!
But having Verizon, AT&T and Google collect that same metadata, and put it up for sale to the highest bidder is A-OK!
The Obama bashers have a cognitive disconnect on what's happening.
Maedhros
(10,007 posts)I am not bashing Obama. I am objecting to blanket domestic surveillance by the NSA, and I am definitely not in favor of the telecommunications giants collecting and selling our data.
baldguy
(36,649 posts)But you are calling out "Obama bashers" i.e. people outraged by the revelation of blanket domestic surveillance by the NSA, not just the OP.
Question: when you opposed the actions of the previous president, did you have Bush Derangement Syndrome?
Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)allin99
(894 posts)same way nothing bad happened to clinton when liberals dems didn't like some of his policy (nafta, whatever). The news is sensational, the republicans are acting crazy, as usual, but nothing bad is going to happen to obama same way nothing happened to bush when he passed FISA, and all the rest. Don't worry about that. Obama is a grown man in one of the most powerful positions in the world, it's okay for citizens to voice their discontent about their calls being tracked.
upaloopa
(11,417 posts)news organization or web site. So who's facts do you accept?
Everyone picks for themselves what the facts are.
Swede Atlanta
(3,596 posts)From a very basic position, the identity of the President, which party holds the majority in the House or Senate or even the composition of the Supreme Court matter to me. What matters to me is whether a program that has been authorized by the required votes in the House and Senate and signed by the President is constitutional.
It is also true that the identities and political affiliations of the players affects my level of concern. The GOP that has a history of intolerance and willingness to trample civil rights is more likely to be pre-disposed to abusing the programs that engage in spying on the American (and other) people. I would hope that the Democrats with a stronger track record of tolerance and support/protection of civil rights would be more circumspect in their use of these powers.
I am fundamentally opposed to the broad sucking up of data that is not, at the time of collection, nor at any time during its retention, targeted to a suspicion or evidence of wrong-doing. This is like saying well I am going to collect this information, much of it highly personal, just in case in future I may want it.
When governments run amuck you see ex post facto laws and where data is handed over not only to government entities but to private parties for their use. Would you like the federal government to hand over your phone call records to your employer if it revealed you have had telephone calls to recruiters and some competitors? Unfortunately you lack the same power to see the calls between your H.R. manager and legal.
Skittles
(153,150 posts)MH1
(17,600 posts)a) if the information source has no credibility, then anything he says that isn't backed up by an actual document that can be otherwise verified, is bullshit.
b) I haven't had time tread everything about this story that I probably should, but the "document" I know about is a freakin' powerpoint slide. A powerpoint slide. As a techie type of person, I agree with Fogel, and think it's reasonable to assume that slide was aimed at non-techie people, as in, "there's good info that you should be using in your analysis, that we are getting directly from these companies" - which they would be, under FISA warrants that we already knew about. Not necessarily a "giant vacuum" sucking up everything in cyberspace, as some as interpreted it. It's a freakin' powerpoint slide, people.
That said, there are reasonable questions to be addressed about all this snooping that we've known about for years, but as for anything Snowden says, refer back to 1).
tavalon
(27,985 posts)or a game of distraction.
Don't look at the surveillance, pounce on the personalities. Hey, look over there!!!!
And a sight too many people on this very list are falling for it.
Come on people, keep your eyes on the important stuff, like the massive surveillance state being created right in front of you.