Greenwald: Edward Snowden's worst fear has not been realised – thankfully (cites polls)

[ProSense]

Edward Snowden's worst fear has not been realised – thankfully

The NSA whistleblower's only concern was that his disclosures would be met with apathy. Instead, they're leading to real reform

In my first substantive discussion with Edward Snowden, which took place via encrypted online chat, he told me he had only one fear. It was that the disclosures he was making, momentous though they were, would fail to trigger a worldwide debate...Snowden, at least in that regard, can rest easy. The fallout from the Guardian's first week of revelations is intense and growing.

If "whistleblowing" is defined as exposing secret government actions so as to inform the public about what they should know, to prompt debate, and to enable reform, then Snowden's actions are the classic case.

US polling data, by itself, demonstrates how powerfully these revelations have resonated. Despite a sustained demonization campaign against him from official Washington, a Time magazine poll found that 54% of Americans believe Snowden did "a good thing", while only 30% disagreed. That approval rating is higher than the one enjoyed by both Congress and President Obama.

While a majority nonetheless still believes he should be prosecuted, a plurality of Americans aged 18 to 34, who Time says are "showing far more support for Snowden's actions", do not. Other polls on Snowden have similar results, including a Reuters finding that more Americans see him as a "patriot" than a "traitor".

- more -

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jun/14/edward-snowden-worst-fear-not-realised

Poll: Majority Says Snowden Did A Good Thing, But He Should Be Prosecuted
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023008441

Most disapprove of gov't phone snooping of ordinary Americans

Polling analysis by Sarah Dutton, Jennifer De Pinto, Anthony Salvanto and Fred Backus

<...>

Seventy-five percent of Americans approve of federal agencies collecting the phone records of people the government suspects of terrorist activity, but a 58 percent majority disapproves of this type of data collection in the case of ordinary Americans.



<...>

When asked if the government's collection of Americans' phone call records is a necessary tool to help find terrorists, a slight majority of 53 percent say it is.

There is broad support for the government monitoring the internet activities of those living in foreign countries. Seventy-two percent of Americans approve of this practice and there is agreement on this across party lines.

<...>

But fewer Americans are concerned about their own personal communications being monitored. Just over a third is at least somewhat concerned about the government collecting their own phone records (38 percent) and monitoring their internet use (35 percent); six in 10 are not concerned.

Asked if the government has gone too far in infringing on people's privacy in its efforts to fight terrorism, 46 percent think the balance is about right, but 36 percent say the government has gone too far. Just 13 percent think the government hasn't gone far enough. Republicans are more likely (42 percent) than Democrats (26 percent) to say the government has gone too far.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-250_162-57588748/most-disapprove-of-govt-phone-snooping-of-ordinary-americans/

(Snowden)...Showed Hong Kong Newspaper Documents Revealing US Hacking Attacks On China (updated 2x)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023001669

Glenn Greenwald's 'Epic Botch'?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023012813

Snowden Is Using 'Specific' Evidence of the U.S. Hacking China to Stay Out of Jail
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023015740

[Cali_Democrat]

1. This poll was conducted prior to revelations he's a Chinese espionage agent with a fake resume. n/t

[ProSense]

4. Greenwald is admitting that Snowden

committed a crime to spark a "debate" and usher in "reforms."

"This poll was conducted prior to revelations he's a Chinese espionage agent with a fake resume. "

And it still shows that the majority wants him prosecuted.

[Whisp]

10. does that make Greenwald an accomplice?

sounds like it to me he is admitting to being a part of the illegality of it all.

[sabrina 1]

5. And the people you want us to trust with our Rights and Security hired a 'Chinese Espionage Agent'??

Lol, it's hard to defend violations of our Constitutional rights without tripping yourself up, isn't it?

Better to just stick to principles and the truth. The 4th Amendment is a good enough guide for me regarding who we should trust with our Rights and Security. And when our government violates the Constitution, it's much easier NOT to try to defend them.

[Marr]

14. +1

That's made me shake my head throughout all the personality-driven attacks here. Apologists attack Snowden as if breaking him down makes their case stronger.

How? It doesn't change the information that was released one iota, and it only paints the picture of a surveillance state so massive and incompetent that it's reduced to hiring completely unqualified people.

[ProSense]

18. "Better to just stick to principles and the truth."

Truth:

Snowden)...Showed Hong Kong Newspaper Documents Revealing US Hacking Attacks On China (updated 2x)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023001669

[sabrina 1]

21. Are you trying to make a point? I'm missing it I guess.

So I'll say it again and include a few pronouns this time.

It is better for the American people to sick to principles and be guided by their Constitution rather than trust any government, and especially one that it now appears was so cavalier with our secrets they are hiring twenty somethings without much background checks, to dispense with the 4th Amendment on the promise of safety and security.

Who is this guy anyhow? I never heard of him until this week, and don't much care about him.

I'm saying what I always said, I oppose Bush policies, ALL of them, how about you?

[ProSense]

22. And

So I'll say it again and include a few pronouns this time.

It is better for the American people to sick to principles and be guided by their Constitution rather than trust any government, and especially one that it now appears was so cavalier with our secrets they are hiring twenty somethings without much background checks, to dispense with the 4th Amendment on the promise of safety and security.

Who is this guy anyhow? I never heard of him until this week, and don't much care about him.

I'm saying what I always said, I oppose Bush policies, ALL of them, how about you?

...what does that have to do with the point of the OP? A few things become clear:

It's not about Snowden, unless he's being hailed as a hero.

It's not aout Greenwald, unless he's a national treasure.

It's not about Obama, unless he's being portrayed as a liar.

One of the most fascinating aspects in the aftermath of this leak is watching people resort to hyperbolic prose (invoking the Constitutation and pretending they're the only defenders of it) while misrepresenting the facts. You "oppose Bush policies"? Well, good for you. So did I, and I'm not the one pretending that Bush's policies are the same as Obama's.

Prior to the FISA amendments, Bush was intentionally targeting Americans in collecting metadata without a warrant and bypassing the FISA Court.

That was illegal, but more specific is the fact that Bush was actually eavesdropping on Americans.

While many details about the program remain secret, officials familiar with it say the N.S.A. eavesdrops without warrants on up to 500 people in the United States at any given time. The list changes as some names are added and others dropped, so the number monitored in this country may have reached into the thousands since the program began, several officials said. Overseas, about 5,000 to 7,000 people suspected of terrorist ties are monitored at one time, according to those officials.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/16/politics/16program.html

"As part of its battle to win votes in favor of war against Iraq," the Observer had reported on March 2, 2003, the U.S. government developed an "aggressive surveillance operation, which involves interception of the home and office telephones and the e-mails of U.N. delegates." The smoking gun was "a memorandum written by a top official at the National Security Agency -- the U.S. body which intercepts communications around the world -- and circulated to both senior agents in his organization and to a friendly foreign intelligence agency." The friendly agency was Britain's Government Communications Headquarters.

http://www.commondreams.org/views05/1227-26.htm

The fact that the FISA amendment gave the telecoms retroactive immunity for their role in the law-breaking acivity is being misinterpreted to mean the law made Bush's activities legal.

That's like claiming that someone given immunity for cooperating in a criminal investigation means that the crime being investigated becomes legal.

In a country where surveillance has been part of the fabric of law enforcement and national security (http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023013882), with the acknowledgment that it's a necessity, the debate is about how to do it while protecting Americans, classified information and the Constitution.

Report: Yahoo Challenged PRISM In 2008
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023015163

[flamingdem]

2. What would the majority of Americans say about Snowden compromising US interests

in China in return for saving his own hiney?

[ProSense]

6. Nothing to see here,

"What would the majority of Americans say about Snowden compromising US interests"

...he just wanted people to discuss the issue. The OP is beyond hilarious.

"Most significant" leak in history, and likely one of the dumbest.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022987178

[sabrina 1]

9. Who hired him and gave him access to such sensitive material?

Could it have been those you trust with our rights and security? Lol, this tactic won't work either. Either we can trust the competence of our Intel Community with our Rights and Security, or we can't. I don't trust anyone who tramples on my Constitutional Rights so it wouldn't surprise me if the did hire a Chinese Spy.

[Rex]

13. What you keep saying over and over (and with no reply from some)

is very important here and is a real scandal imo. Who hires a guy with a GED and lies his ass off on his resume to handle some of the most sensitive information the government keeps secret?

This should scare the living shit out of all Americans - we are being spied upon by people that were hired by our government with no qualifications and evidently no oversight.

How fucked are we now!?

[sabrina 1]

17. Thanks, I just can't get an answer as to why, assuming the detractors of Snowden are correct,

we should trust those who hired him with our 4th Amendment rights. It's getting harder and harder for them to try to defend this. Every smear they raise, only makes it more imperative that we abide by the Constitution and stop these Bush policies NOW before it's too late.

[Rex]

20. They are like the snake that ate it's tail.

IF you are condemning Snowden AND not actually holding the federal government responsible for this huge breach of security...then why NOT? Just think the one subject is good enough to rant about? NO SIR, this is very bad and will get worse as the years go by. Our security has been compromised by private industry that evidently the government approves of. A very flawed private industry as we see now. Dangerous? About as dangerous as it can get.

All I hear is the *crickets* and they don't seem to comprehend this huge black hole in the middle of our surveillance community. That has the backing of both parties.

[sabrina 1]

40. It's outrageous that anyone would even try to defend any of this. On the positive side, so far

anyhow, polls are showing that a majority of Americans do not. However the propaganda will be fierce. We've already seen the prepared NSA's memo of talking points. And watching CNN this morning, their 'terror expert' rambled on about why they believe this program is necessary. He talked about the capture of a Terrorist Cell in London being one of the cases the NSA has cited, but without explaining how spying on the whole country, had anything to do with it.

He was very 'professional', and ended with 'this one of the cases they have referred to so far'. It was cleverly done. But throughout his enitre piece he never explained even remotely, how this had anything to do with spying on the American people. However if you just tuned and listened, you would think that he had. Amazing, the deception.

[ProSense]

19. So you're admitting

"Who hired him and gave him access to such sensitive material?"

...that he shouldn't have had "access"? Apparently, it's getting harder to defend Snowden.

NSA Director Says Leaker’s Wiretapping Ability Claims Are ‘False’
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023007548

Report: Snowden Stored Documents On Thumb Drive
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023010060

[arely staircase]

3. I would like to see a poll regrding his sharing of US hacking techniques with the Chinese

nt

[sabrina 1]

7. I would like to see a poll regarding our Intel Community who we are supposed to trust

with our Rights and Security hiring someone without having a clue that he might have the potential to share our secrets with the Chinese.

I think if anyone believes he is a Chinese spy they might want to rethink handing over our rights to those who hired him.

[arely staircase]

8. I agree with all of that

to me the biggest scandal is that we give the likes of this guy access to our secrets.

[flamingdem]

11. Yes, exactly. History will not see him as a hero

no matter what results. Especially with the Chinese caper. Now the Chinese people trust the US way less, which matter long term for the whole world.

[Major Hogwash]

25. Yeah, I agree.

Going to Hong Kong was a huge mistake.
I don't know if that was Greenwald's advice or not, but since he was there too, it would seem so.

[ProSense]

32. Agree. n/t

[sabrina 1]

12. Because it isn't about our security, it's all privatized now. Follow the money, and follow the

Private 'Security' Contractors in and out of their Multi Billion dollar Corporations, like Booz Allen, right back into our Government. See Clapper, former and probably future employee of Booz Allen (Snowden's last employer) now Director of Intelligence. Makes you feel all warm and fuzzy about who we are allowing access to our personal information. Do they outsource the work, to China maybe? Who knows, it's all so secret.

[Cha]

27. Wondering if that poll will

ever happen?

[Life Long Dem]

15. Real reform

They'll revoke some system privileges for private contractors to keep them out of certain areas in the database and they'll declassify some things for the public to see. At least that's what I got from D. Feinstein.

[CakeGrrl]

16. Seems to me is only REAL concern is avoiding jail time. -nt

[ProSense]

23. Exactly, and pulling out

polls taken and statements made during the frenzy and before the recent reports about his actions in Hong Kong to create the impression that everything is going rosy.

[CakeGrrl]

24. It'll shake out soon enough

I think I'll check life outside the bubble while it unfolds. It's been making things pretty toxic and crazy around here, to say the least.

[ProSense]

26. It always does. n/t

[Tarheel_Dem]

30. He's taken a page from the Julian Assange playbook. If you have friends in high places....

you can escape prosecution. He's not the MLK/Rosa Parks type figure some (Chris Hayes) are trying to make him out to be. They had the courage of their convictions, and they took their lumps.

[Number23]

35. Girl, you should hear what the Aussies say about Assange

Did you know that he is thinking of running for the Senate in Australia? http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/julian-assange-to-take-wikileaks-party-global/story-fn59niix-1226664137440

Snip: "Green said he doubted the WikiLeaks Party would attract more than 4 per cent of the primary vote in Victoria, so its fate hinged on preferences and its position on the Senate ballot. His view was shared by political analyst Malcolm Mackerras of the Australian Catholic University.

"Assange has no hope of winning a Victorian Senate seat," Professor Mackerras said. "However, it is possible to imagine him getting, say, 4 per cent of the vote."

That gives you an idea of what people think about this Down Under. And on a personal, anecdotal level, I don't know anyone that thinks his Senate run is a good idea.

It was very telling last year when the ABC (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) ran Assange's Christmas message. The ABC is CONSTANTLY being attacked by politicians and others who say that it is too liberal and too left wing.

After they played Assange's Christmas message, the two Aussie journalists looked silently into the camera. The male journalist, with what could only be described as a bit of sneer said, "I thought only the Pope and the QUEEN gave Christmas messages?"

Brutal.

[Tarheel_Dem]

36. Assange has an inflated sense of self, and though he may be popular on sites....

like this, in the REAL world, he's an asshole who was fortunate enough to know some rich & influential folk who assisted him in escaping the rule of law that applies to us mere mortals. If Australia is dumb enough to give this egomaniacal, attention seeking whoredog a place in their government, and trust him with state secrets, then they will surely get what the hell they deserve.

[Number23]

37. dayum!

egomaniacal, attention seeking whoredog


Don't hold back, now!

I agree with you on the ego maniac. I think Wikileaks as an entity is far more interesting than Julian Assange is. My sense is that he's pissed off pretty much everyone but his most swooning supporters at this point.

[Tarheel_Dem]

38. Ya got that right. His former Wiki colleagues have some interesting tales to tell.

That's where I got the "egomaniacal, attention seeking whoredog" from. As for his "swooning supporters", they are marginal at best, and total hypocrites at worst. According to most of them, everyone should face the bar of justice except Herr Assange.

[OilemFirchen]

28. This isn't about Snowden.

Which is why Greenwald, in possession of "thousands" of pages of information, including "dozens" which are noteworthy, emerged from the shadows not to reveal any of this information, but to explain why this is actually about Snowden.

And how is it about Snowden? He triggered a conversation which Greenwald welcomes, despite his acolytes bemoaning that the conversation is actually not happening because it's become all about... well... Snowden.

I'll admit to having had little patience with Greenwald and his fans. There might have been a very useful dialog had either one actually revealed anything nefarious, as they had promised. More's the pity that's clearly not going to happen.

[ProSense]

39. Well,

"I'll admit to having had little patience with Greenwald and his fans. There might have been a very useful dialog had either one actually revealed anything nefarious, as they had promised. More's the pity that's clearly not going to happen. "

...that's what happens when misinformation meets OMG!!!

[graham4anything]

29. What I love in this poll is that it actually says the MAJORITY APPROVE

cut and pasted this

When asked if the government's collection of Americans' phone call records is a necessary tool to help find terrorists, a slight majority of 53 percent say it is.

There is broad support for the government monitoring the internet activities of those living in foreign countries. Seventy-two percent of Americans approve of this practice and there is agreement on this across party lines.

between that and the fact that 59% think the gov't doing enough or should do EVEN MORE.

It goes without saying-
Probably a poll of 100% of Ron Paul Fans would show 100% agreement that it is bad.

but most Americans think the opposite of Ron and Rand Paul fans.

[Tarheel_Dem]

31. Let's see if those numbers shift when the American people make the China connection. Lots of folk..

admired the nobility of the first leak, but I don't think they were prepared for Snowden to start spilling his guts to the Chinese. I think for many of us, "whistleblowing" is sort of okay, but leaking American secrets to another country borders on treason, and Americans despise traitors. He harmed himself by choosing Hong Kong.

[ProSense]

34. Yes,

"He harmed himself by choosing Hong Kong."

...he did.

Snowden’s Leaks on China Could Affect Its Role in His Fate
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023019504

[HipChick]

33. I wonder if we will see as much reform going on as much as gun reform

oh yeah..DOH!