"Sympathy for the Luddites" by Paul Krugman at the NY Times

[applegrove]

Sympathy for the Luddites

by Paul Krugman at the NY Times

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/14/opinion/krugman-sympathy-for-the-luddites.html?smid=re-share&_r=0

"SNIP..........................


And the modern counterparts of those woolworkers might well ask further, what will happen to us if, like so many students, we go deep into debt to acquire the skills we’re told we need, only to learn that the economy no longer wants those skills?

Education, then, is no longer the answer to rising inequality, if it ever was (which I doubt).

So what is the answer? If the picture I’ve drawn is at all right, the only way we could have anything resembling a middle-class society — a society in which ordinary citizens have a reasonable assurance of maintaining a decent life as long as they work hard and play by the rules — would be by having a strong social safety net, one that guarantees not just health care but a minimum income, too. And with an ever-rising share of income going to capital rather than labor, that safety net would have to be paid for to an important extent via taxes on profits and/or investment income.

I can already hear conservatives shouting about the evils of “redistribution.” But what, exactly, would they propose instead?

..........................SNIP"

[Squinch]

1. Kick. I heart Paul Krugman eternally. I am dreamily doodling his name on a notebook right now.

[applegrove]

2. Yes. Hard to think of where we'd be without him.

[hfojvt]

21. maybe somewhere better

Krugman now calls for increased taxes on investment income

when just six months ago he was applauding Obama's surrender on ATRA. Which kept most of the Bush tax cuts - including permanently lowering the tax rate on dividends - you know, investment income.

Jan. 1, 2013 was the best opportunity to increase taxes on the rich, and we couldn't do it then, and Krugman did not fight very hard for it. And then applauded the fact that we didn't do it.

Back then we had the wind at our backs. It didn't require any Republican votes at all. It was much easier then. To call for it now, is just spitting into the wind.

[CTyankee]

30. I feel the same way. I am an ardent follower of his NYT blog, my daily Krugman "fix."

The comments from readers on each blog are interesting, too, and very erudite...

[Warpy]

3. Krugman gets it

The only way to create and maintain a healthy and stable middle class is to do it through economic policy that redistributes wealth downward from the hoarding at the top. The best way to do that is through progressive taxation of all income.

The uber wealthy had better answer the clue phone on this one. The longer they stall and hoard, the more violent the reaction against them will ultimately be.

[reformist2]

31. Taxation not just of income, but idle wealth as well.

[Warpy]

32. Yes, but even idle wealth has to be taxed progressively

My own idle wealth nets me an income in the 5 figures, enough to live well on if I hadn't been so poor all my life that I live on half of it. I'm retired and too decrepit to work and I have a lot of company out there.

Once the cat finally dies, I'll go on a spree. I've promised myself to support the economy fully once she's not puking and peeing on everything, poor ancient kitty.

Idle wealth can also generate millions and occasionally a billion or more. That needs to be taxed at a higher rate simply because it tends to pile up in a hoard and not be spent, taken out of the general economy completely, leaving the general economy much poorer.

Money doesn't do anything unless it's moving. Once it stops moving and simply tends to pile up, the taxes on it need to go up proportionately.

[SoCalDem]

4. It all boils down to : Do we take care of them or do we just kill them?

SoCalDem (99,977 posts) Thu May 17, 2012, 07:10 PM

It all boils down to : Do we take care of them or do we just kill them?

Inside EVERY society you will find:

people who seem to enjoy work, and who willingly look for more to do as they finish tasks

people who work because they fear reprisal if they do not, and who do as little as possible

people who seem capable, but whose personal reasons prevent them from doing much work

young who cannot work (and should not be expected to)

very old who cannot work (and should not be expected to)

handicapped who cannot do much or any work

Regardless of the category, these people ARE in the society. They all have the same basic needs...food.... shelter.... water.... companionship... education...health care... a decent life

We ALL need to realize that these people, in varying percentages, have always been with us, and always will be.

The only variable is in how we "deal" with them.

We can grow up, and figure out that "some" people will need assistance. and yes, occasionally a person/ people "might" take more than we think they should, or may be totally "undeserving" of any help.


Or we accept the fact that we (as a society) have no use for these people, and we might as well "get rid of 'them' altogether." Some might say we are already wandering down that path to some degree. We lock up millions of people who turned to crime. We warehouse old sick people in places we would never want to be.. We accept the malnourishment of poor children we will never meet. We under educate millions of children.

We have the "don't-give-a-crap" part down pat.. Now we are just dithering over how it will play out.

[chervilant]

27. Helluva good post! n/t

[Progressive dog]

5. K&R

Paul Krugman is always worth reading and this column is particularly good.

[bvar22]

6. DURec for Krugman.

New Rule (Passed by Congress and signed by President Obama) signals Kiss of Death for Pensions
http://www.cnbc.com/id/100694955

Wealthy win lion's share of major tax breaks
http://www.boston.com/business/news/2013/05/29/wealthy-win-lion-share-major-tax-breaks/Ua0UyYle21EUXub7g1suCI/story.html

Half of America is in poverty, and its creeping toward 75%
http://www.alternet.org/economy/real-numbers-half-america-poverty-and-its-creeping-toward-75-0

Wealth gap widens as labor's share of income falls
http://www.nbcnews.com/business/wealth-gap-widens-labors-share-income-falls-1B6097385

As the Economy Recovers, the Wealth Gap Widens
http://www.usnews.com/news/blogs/rick-newman/2013/03/11/as-the-economy-recovers-the-wealth-gap-widens

Top One Percent Captured 121 Percent Of All Income Gains
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/02/12/top-one-percent-income-gains_n_2670455.html

Corporate Profits Hit Record High While Worker Wages Hit Record Low
http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2012/12/03/1270541/corporate-profits-wages-record/?mobile=nc


These things ^ do NOT happen by accident.
They take careful planning, preparation, marketing, buying the right politicians, message control, and the marginalization of any opposition.

[rhett o rick]

8. Go ahead and say the word. You know you want to, it's a conspiracy.

I am not mocking because it is a conspiracy. "These things ^ do NOT happen by accident.
They take careful planning, preparation, marketing, buying the right politicians, message control, and the marginalization of any opposition." That careful planning is defined as conspiracy. THe conspiracy to redistribute wealth to the FUCKING WEALTHY.

[bvar22]

12. The Wealthy have ALWAYS conspired with each other to Make More Money.

It is called "Capitalism",
and the STUPIDEST thing America has EVER done
was to allow smooth talking Con Men to sell us the idea
that IF we removed the regulations from our Corporations,
that would be GOOD for America's Working Class.

These burdensome "regulations" that our fathers and grandfathers shed BLOOD
to put in place helped build the Largest, Wealthiest, and Most Upwardly Mobile Working Class the World had ever seen.

Removing those regulations in favor of a "Free Market" controlled by a mythological Invisible Hand precipitated its downfall.

If we had a Political Party that represented the Working Class,
we might be able to turn this around,
but that is a big "IF".

Our neighbors in Latin America have given us a Blue Print for "change".
We have the numbers.
All we lack is the will.

When America's Working Class and Poor realize WE have more in common with each other,
than we have in common with the 1% Ruling Class and their mouth pieces in Washington,
THEN, we can have "change" too.

VIVA Democracy!

[rhett o rick]

16. By about 1970 the Great Republican Depression was fading from memory.

People like my father that had to scratch for a living were getting old in 1970 and the next generation had been raised in relative comfort. The capitalists made their move and literally conspired to redistribute the wealth of the fat and happy middle class. The pain has been avoided by longer working hours, two working spouses, and loans. But the shit is going to hit the fan soon. 50% poverty level and growing. At some point the masses will figure it out and revolt. I hope we dont have to get that far, but I think we will. Our only hope is that the Ruling Elite take pity on us (actually throw us a bone to keep us from revolting) but I think their greed will have the best of them.

[bvar22]

18. The shit WILL Hit the Fan.

Wealthy win lion's share of major tax breaks
http://www.boston.com/business/news/2013/05/29/wealthy-win-lion-share-major-tax-breaks/Ua0UyYle21EUXub7g1suCI/story.html

Half of America is in poverty, and its creeping toward 75%
http://www.alternet.org/economy/real-numbers-half-america-poverty-and-its-creeping-toward-75-0

Wealth gap widens as labor's share of income falls
http://www.nbcnews.com/business/wealth-gap-widens-labors-share-income-falls-1B6097385

As the Economy Recovers, the Wealth Gap Widens
http://www.usnews.com/news/blogs/rick-newman/2013/03/11/as-the-economy-recovers-the-wealth-gap-widens

Top One Percent Captured 121 Percent Of All Income Gains
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/02/12/top-one-percent-income-gains_n_2670455.html

Corporate Profits Hit Record High While Worker Wages Hit Record Low
http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2012/12/03/1270541/corporate-profits-wages-record/?mobile=nc

This trend is Unsustainable.
The RICH KNOW that,
and are hastily grabbing up everything of value still remaining in the hands of the Working Class,
and pulling up the ladders....

...because something is gonna break,
and when it does, it won't be pretty.
THAT is WHY the 1% is busy militarizing the local Police Forces,
and building a mammoth Security/Surveillance State.

Lindsey Graham and Dianne Feinstien were on TV yesterday saying they are just fine with the NSA Spying on Americans.
I thought to myself,
"Well, they would be."
Any Old, Extra White, Extra RICH 1%er WOULD be.
"They" are going to need Militarized Police and the Homeland Security State to protect themselves and their loot when the peasants realize how badly they've been screwed.

[rhett o rick]

19. The war we are waging is between the 1% and the 99%. There maybe a few Democrats in Congress that

side with the 99% but not many.

[chervilant]

28. I'm glad I'm in rural Arkansas!

The imminent social 'unrest' will likely be as bloody.

[rhett o rick]

7. First of all there is an alternative to "redistribution of wealth" it's called feudalism.

And secondly, there still is a clear way out of poverty, PowerBall, the new American Dream.

[hunter]

23. The oligarchs have made it very clear they want a feudal form of government...

... and they've largely achieved it.

[toby jo]

9. And we're in for another dose of this shit from Ryan next round.

Still politicking, still stupid.

[reformist2]

10. We're in the absurd situation of having overabundance, with more and more no means to buy anything.

[DissidentVoice]

11. To hear the right-wingers tell it...

...it's "THEFT" whenever one red cent of tax revenue is raised to pay for the "lazy, shiftless welfare queens;" i.e., anyone further down the socioeconomic scale than they are. FTR, I worked years ago as an intake counsellor for a state welfare agency. For every person who tried to "game the system" I found probably 10 who were truly in need.

The alternative, as correctly pointed out, is feudalism.

When this country was formed it was still very close to a feudalistic society...why do you think we have the inane Electoral College? Because the Founders so revered by the far right did not trust the "rabble" to elect the President...it was to be done by their "betters" (electors).

Make no mistake, THAT is what the "conservatives" want to go back to.

[reusrename]

13. Labor should never be taxed. We should only tax wealth.

If taxes really are a disincentive (as the free-marketers proclaim) then why would you want to tax working folks on the work they perform. Why not tax the useless eaters, those sarcastically referred to as the "job creators" instead. They contribute not a thing to society. Even their trading is all automated nowadays.

[reformist2]

14. I agree. Our tax code punishes the middle class workers the most, and protects the idle rich.

And for what? Just so they can have a ever-increasing mountain of money? It's insane.

[reusrename]

15. We could end world hunger if we had the political will to do it.

I don't think any other generation has ever been in a position to make such a claim.

If we declared war on hunger we could win that war in less than a year. And everyone knows it!

[Sirveri]

24. How does one do that without taxing income?

Tax the income, it's the smart thing to do. It demolishes excessive wages if you increase the top tier to 90+%. After all, can a man really perform enough labor to be worth the value of 80 Million dollars in a single year (I want to say the viacom CEO made that much a year or two ago). Taxing stored wealth simply will make the wealth move into offshore tax havens, it must be taxed as it is made. Fail to pay, sieze the instruments they used to 'create' it. AKA steal it, since they only make that money by paying everyone under them less than they have produced.

[reusrename]

25. It's simpler than that.

You just set a per-person threshold and anything over that gets taxed, no matter who it belongs to. Shifting ownership of the 80 million would not relieve the tax burden on that money, no matter who it is given to.

Folks should be required to self report their holdings and anything not reported would be subject to confiscatory rates if it is ever transferred.

[tclambert]

17. Did Krugman really say he supports a minimum income? All right!

Everybody should get the basics: food, shelter, clothing, transportation, and health care. Basics at a basic level. If you want more, you gotta earn it. And frankly, I don't see how your rich daddy setting up a trust fund earns you any respect.

[reformist2]

22. It's fantastic to have someone at his level advocating this!

[Orsino]

26. If we're going to define money as speech, and speech as a right, the conclusion is inevitable. n/t

[ErikJ]

20. GOP Solution: Pick themselves up by their bootstraps.

Instead of minimum income how about a guaranteed stock ownership from birth? If machines are conceivably going to do all the work, I dont see how the people could make any money besides owning stock ......or maybe the govt distribution of corporate dividends.

[chervilant]

29. Maslow noted that our need to create

is as intrinsic as our need for food, water and shelter. The vast majority of our species works because we are driven toward creative outlets. If we look at our nation's GDP, we can see how hard working we are and have been for decades!

Any time a delusional "I-can-be-wealthy-too" water-carrier for the obscenely wealthy snarks about welfare 'fraud,' I remind them of the above AND of how much the corporate megalomaniacs' unapologetic malfeasance cost the WORLD in the last five years.