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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsSnowden Had a Breaking Point, Where He Decided to Risk It All to Fix This Country -- What's Yours?
Snowden Had a Breaking Point, Where He Decided to Risk It All to Fix This Country -- What's Yours?
Change starts with action, and each of us has a way to contribute.
...
Snowden sparked protest, lawsuits, criticism of the administration and US intelligence. His action shows the power that comes when someone inside the system break ranks and tells the truth. Successful movements depend on people breaking ranks: questioning, demurring, disobeying, defecting and withdrawing support. As Ken Butigan writes in Waging Nonviolence, the impact can start a metamorphosis for all of us:
the individual conscientious objector, the abstainer, and the resister the one who, as Gandhi said, pits ones whole soul against the will of a tyrant. Not only do the Edward Snowdens of the world help the rest of us see more clearly the realities we are up against in this case, the institutionalization of unfettered, massive data collection on and profiling of the population they can shock us into realizing that part of our job description as human beings is our obligation to withdraw our passive or active consent from such policies.
What is your breaking point? This is the question we must all ask ourselves, especially those who have not yet taken action. As whistleblower Sibel Edmonds wrote this week, the inaction and apathy of people is our greatest enemy: Apathy is a must ingredient for any police state, authoritarian regime, dictatorship, for abuses of power, for corruption, national atrocities, genocide. . . .
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One or a few people can make a tremendous difference. Sam Smith, the editor of Progressive Review, reminds us of the unpredictable power of action, recalling: there was the time in early 1960 when four black college students sat down at a white-only Woolworths lunch counter in Greensboro, NC. Within two weeks, there were sit-ins in 15 cities in five southern states and within two months they had spread to 54 cities in nine states. By April the leaders of these protests had come together, heard a moving sermon by Martin Luther King Jr. and formed the Student Non-Violent Coordinating Committee. Four students did something and America changed. Even they, however, couldnt know what the result would be.
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Carl Gibson, founder of US Uncut, recently spoke to Dennis Trainor, Jr. about the uprising in Iceland as a model for a mass movement in the US. Many of the ingredients are in place in the US such as growing wealth inequality and a government corrupted by big finance. Though it seems we are up against a powerful opponent, we have the information and tools we need to create the society in which we want to live.
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Much more here: http://www.alternet.org/activism/whats-your-breaking-point-take-action?paging=off
ProSense
(116,464 posts)By John Shiffman, Mark Hosenball and Kristina Cooke
<...>
An avid gamer, he posted on the ethics of video game piracy in 2003: "I feel the mega corporation is promoting hyper-materialism and I don't like that. That means I want to punish the company in any way I can."
"Legality does not factor into this, getting away with it (OMG dispensing justice LOL!) in order to do it again does," Snowden added. "If my actions contribute to driving the corporation I view as "evil" into the ground, I'll sleep easier at night knowing I have (in my mind) done society a service."
On Ars Technica, Snowden gave more advice than he sought. To others hoping to land U.S. government jobs, he bemoaned high living costs and commuting hassles in Washington.
"My life is great except for the fact that while I'm making twice the average income, I could not afford a house in my zip code without robbing a bank," he wrote in 2006.
- more -
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/06/14/us-usa-security-snowden-online-idUSBRE95D02320130614
grasswire
(50,130 posts)aquart
(69,014 posts)The only way to know if people will stand with you is to stand up first. Utterly useless are the ones who sidle up afterwards and whisper, "You know, I really agree with you."
Which is what I'm seeing.
Personally, I have no respect for Snowden who is an amazing hero in his own mind, but I am glad we are having this spying on Americans conversation. The ones who are watching us need to know we're watching them.
Booz Allen needs to be called in to justify every hire for the last ten years. I trust them so little I have no particular worries over their spy skills.
otohara
(24,135 posts)I don't have parents who helped me get a cushy govt. job, but I have called and emailed hundreds of times to the various yahoooos in DC..to no avail. Sometimes I've lost it on the phone - I hope Mr. Snowden likes Chinese food and their government, once he learns what they are saying.
Catherina
(35,568 posts)Bye now
otohara
(24,135 posts)no need to get icky, the OP says "What's Yours" - there's not much I can do, but I do what I do to make this country better and have fought with many a snarky interns at Rand Paul's office, Allen West..etc.
I did have my picture taken on a pony once - when we lived in the projects back in the 60's. Never had any expectations for having a pony either .... being disabled from the age of two put the kibosh on many things I wanted to do, but couldn't. I would have settled for two parents and two good legs over a pony any day.
I do find it amusing that Snowden risked it all... when he had it all handed to him due to mommy and daddy.
Plus all this info from The Guardian - you don't trust them do you? All that nasty stuff they said about the new Pope with the fake pics.
Catherina
(35,568 posts)Edward Snowden Demonstrates the Power of Breaking Ranks
By Ken Butigan, www.wagingnonviolence.org
June 13th, 2013
...
This can be more than switching positions. In some cases it can herald a transformation of identity. To no longer support a policy, an institution or a whole system can signal a profound metamorphosis. We no longer identify with this policy. We no longer draw meaning or comfort from going along. At times we break ranks not only with a particular social issue but also from the system, and its assumptions and values, that created and sustained it.
Sometimes, though, the long-term process of a whole society doing this is given a jolt by a particular example: the individual conscientious objector, the abstainer, and the resister the one who, as Gandhi said, pits ones whole soul against the will of a tyrant. Not only do the Edward Snowdens of the world help the rest of us see more clearly the realities we are up against in this case, the institutionalization of unfettered, massive data collection on and profiling of the population they can shock us into realizing that part of our job description as human beings is our obligation to withdraw our passive or active consent from such policies.
...
In many settings over the past 40 years and especially in the run up to various wars, like the 1991 Persian Gulf War and the U.S. war in Iraq Ellsberg has urged government employees, contractors and policymakers with security clearances to break ranks with policies of impending destruction and go public. Retired Army Colonel Ann Wright who was working in the State Department as the war in Iraq was brewing submitted her resignation one day before the invasion began and a handful of others are examples of conscience trumping silence in this way.
But Ellsbergs hope does not only hinge on government officials. He believes in people power, something he has affirmed by engaging in innumerable acts of nonviolent resistance and stints in jail in the 40 years since releasing the Pentagon Papers. He invites all of us to break ranks. Without conscientious, coordinated, and creative nonviolent resistance, this superstructure of surveillance and control will simply become more sophisticated, intrusive and anti-democratic. The Roman satirist Juvenalasks in one of his plays, Who will guard the guardians? Ultimately, this is up to all of us.
http://www.popularresistance.org/edward-snowden-demonstrates-the-power-of-breaking-ranks/
Beware the propagandists.
Don't entertain their garbage no matter how repetitively they paste their links.
graham4anything
(11,464 posts)that goes too far. So the other side loses me with their over the top hyperbole.
Dr. King DID NOT run away and hide.
Dr. King did not heckle.
Dr. King just did.
Dr. King did not attempt to overthrow a president, Dr. King worked very hard with President Lyndon B. Johnson, and the two
were on the same team
Dr. King did not wear a mask or hide his identity or name(in fact, Dr. King was protesting against masks and the anonymity and the John Birch Society, of which people like Ron Paul and George Wallace and Rand Paul and David Duke and Jorg Haider are in synch with.
even Daniel Ellsberg stood trial (and would have been convicted for a long time had Nixon not done illegalities and the charges were dropped).
and being that I am Jewish, and had my family be forced to leave Austira because of Hitler, the Hitler comparisons are just so
silly.
The constitution says UNREASONABLE. Nothing that is being done is illegal nor unreasonable.
And the majority of the public approve of it when one reads the full polls.
BTW, where is the love these days for FDR? His name was mentioned 24/7/365, all of a sudden, no one mentions FDR's name.
Why is that?
Doesn't FDR's mojo fit in with this discussion anymore?
I for one don't cut and run based on some wedge issue.
The constitution itself says this is legal, and if not SCOTUS will change it.
Yeah, I hold my breath awaiting Justice Scalia reading the ruling.
not that anyone wants to hear what Ihave to say.
But I am exercising my right to say it in a civil manner.
regardless what the major league or minor league media thinks.
Ask the alt media, who would Rand Paul pick for the US Supreme Court.
Who would Jeb bush pick for the US Supreme Court.
Who would Ralph Nader pick for the US Supreme Court.
the day the hyperbole would ever stop, is the day a conversation can begin.
I don't stand with Rand.But the alt media, major media, and Jeb Bush does.
Jeb Bush would pick Rand Paul for the same reasons Bush41 picked Dan Quayle. The two are equals.
Monkie
(1,301 posts)its just hyperbole?
did you watch cspan speaking to rep. Sanchez, a democrat?
http://thehill.com/video/house/305047-dem-rep-lawmakers-learned-significantly-more-about-surveillance-programs-in-nsa-briefing#ixzz2W1vDJJVM
do you ignore the fact that Clapper lied, and lied poorly, Mueller lied, saying one thing in public hearings ´contradicting` the private one?
its funny how everyone wants to discuss conspiracy theories about snowden, but nobody wants to discuss what sanchez said after being briefed, is that not strange? you can hear crickets chirping in the thread about Rep. Sanchez´s reaction to the secret hearings.
graham4anything
(11,464 posts)why would Scalia and Alito and Roberts and Thomas go against the Bush's?
In fact, they will rule it 100% legal, which will make Jeb/Rand very happy in 2016 if they can fracture the democratic party.
All of a sudden Scalia is against the Bush's? Now, that is something.
Monkie
(1,301 posts)your conspiracy theories are interesting, i dont mind discussing them, but why is everyone so afraid to discuss the actual issue at hand?
why will you not watch what democratic Rep. Sanchez says and discuss it?
she was actually at the secret hearing, you really have nothing to say about this?
you spoke of your family in germany, would they have discussed this or been afraid?
graham4anything
(11,464 posts)Anarchy is something to be afraid of.
Zimmy in Florida I am afraid of.
I btw, am watching a DVD now so can't watch anything.
Watching the old Get Smart.
I am on the side of Control, against the evil forces of Kaos.
Mel Brooks got it correct all those years ago.
the Hitler references by the way are 100% over the top.
When the hyperbole stops, conversations begin.
Monkie
(1,301 posts)i still dont get it i think?
you are not the only person with family that has experiences of that war, or the ´great´ war before that.
japanese internment camps differed from what happened in germany, but they were brutal.
saying my family suffered so i wont speak about the issues at hand might not be hyperbole but it is a cop out.
personally i fear government more than anarchy, if your family suffered at the hands of the nazi state then i am sure that you know your history, and i also know you then cant deny that the surveillance state in the US is far more advanced and comprehensive than anything the nazi´s had, or the stasi, it is unprecedented in human history? you speak of control, but this is what all dictators have wished for, chaos is their enemy, what they fear.
i am on the side of peace, and love.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)stand with Democrats, like Wyden who is and always was the most persistent and eloquent defender of our Civil Rights especially during the Bush years when he was a lonely voice many times, standing up for our Constitutional rights.
He too is Jewish, he has a different take on allowing these abuses to continue. His family did flee Germany and thankfully, in time. But not all of his family and friends escaped. He remembers how it all progressed, he recognizes the dangers when he sees them. He knows more of what they are doing. He has been trying, though gagged, to warn the American people for quite a while now.
I also stand with Democrat, Alan Grayson, Democratic Rep Sanchez, Conyers and a whole host of other Democrats.
I don't stand with Republicans, despite their current support for Obama. I know I am on the wrong side if Ari (they-better-watch-what-they-say) Fleischer is on my side. Or Dick Cheney, or Peter (we-count-the-votes) King, or Clapper or Bush.
I'm happy to still be on the opposite side of those Republican morons.
ucrdem
(15,512 posts)Convenient to neocons that is. Just sayin'.
graham4anything
(11,464 posts)ucrdem
(15,512 posts)loyalsister
(13,390 posts)There may be some purity to his motives, he and Greenwald both come across as egomaniacs to me.
It is a worthwhile conversation that could have been initiated in a way that did not shed so much light on the actors and their hyperbole that the need, process, and actual possible solutions are almost overshadowed.
graham4anything
(11,464 posts)So, blaming Obama for what Bush's did, is so typical of 41 and all of his people including Karl Rove.
That is what they did with John Kerry and Al Gore and what they tried, but couldn't do to Bill Clinton and Barack Obama.
loyalsister
(13,390 posts)Help me out?
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)Anderson Cooper this week 'for keeping Bush's policies and protecting the American people'. Peter King supports Obama also. And of course there are all those Republicans Obama appointed to his cabinet, not to mention Republican Clapper, Director of Intelligence (why is a Republican in that position, are there no Democrats Obama could find for all these powerful positions?
Don't worry, Obama has plenty of Republican support on this. It was their idea after all, to spy on the American people.
graham4anything
(11,464 posts)Same as Ron Paul tells people he loves to toke, but in reality as a doctor, I bet he never even partook.
He is an ultra conservative.
What he likes is the kids money who donate to his lavish lifestyle, and his sons lifestyle, so he says he loves pot.
Oddity is Texas and Kentucky are two of the top states for the harshest penalties if caught with any at all.
(they even harass Willie Nelson and Snoop Dog(Lion) day in, day out).
Shows that the Paul family doesn't practice what they say. All they want is to cull voters to their team.
btw, NO ONE is spying and maybe, when the hyperbole stops, then a conversation can begin.
But we can not discuss anything longst as that hyperbole continues.
After all, no info is being learned except after a warrant. And the fourth says UNREASONABLE and nothing is unreasonable as the court already ok'd it.
And as Boston proves, they are not looking for two kids going on thrill kills, they are looking for international terror orgs
who's members have direct contact with bin-laden (til he was caught and apprehended), and the other biggies.
They are not(unlike ron and rand) peeping into anything
And anyone who buys 1984 (a really juvenile book that was so, well 1980s), on Amazon, has more info known about them
just from the big River, than the nsa.
But it makes a good soundbyte.
Of course the Bush's are doing this, because, and thanks to it, it will be blessed by Scalia and Thomas, and after that,
watch what happens.
If you recall, it is how they made Oliver North into a free man, and a national treasure to republicans/Fox and conservatives all over
(with the ACLU blessing of all things).
Remember how (if you are old enough) back in 1988 when Bush41 mocked the ACLU and Mike Dukakis, and called them
un-American. Well, Bush41 sure loved the ACLU when it freed Jolly Olly.
And just because people back then said they didn't like W, did NOT correspond to them liking Obama.
After all, Cheney himself did not like W in the 2nd term either. So this fake faux unreal bush=Obama is statistical static,
i.e. meaningless.
As I am from NYC, and every day, five or so minutes from my house see the NYC skyline, instantly one is reminded of 9-11.
And, thanks for mentioning Peter King REPUBLICAN.
What do you think Mr. King would do if the President dictator style snapped his fingers and it was gone?
He would say the democratic party is soft on security, and guess what
it would be the biggest landslide of all time for the republican party
because the 95% of the democratic party strongly supports the president
and I bet, judging by the past, the 5% on the far far left still would not support the democratic party, being that most
are Ron Paul/ Rand Paul/ Ralph Nader/ Jill Stein supporters, so it would be a net loss.
Meanwhile, not one Ron Paul/Jill Stein supporter wants gun control.
Isn't that weird?
What takes away more rights than the 2nd amendment as interpreted now?
BTW, difference between this Snow guy and Ellsberg is- Ellsberg stood trial, never ran, and put himself out there.
This guy is just an illusion, one doesn't even know anything about him at all.
Ellsberg readily accepted jail, and in fact would have been sentenced to decades or life in jail, but for technicalities that
got his charges dropped, same as Ollie got his dropped.
Didn't mean Olly North wasn't guilty. Just meant he got off.
BTW- I see no difference between this and the leaker of Valerie Plame. And nothing was done about that.
In fact, in Valerie's case, it was far worse than anything here.
I would say 100 to 1.
So Bush will be laughing when Jeb is president and Rand is VP, and then, truly, Jefferson's words will ring out again.
The only ones considered people will be those that look and acted like Jefferson did in his own life.
And never forget, Rand Paul is part of Team Bush.
Think I will stick with Team Obama.
and all the SCOTUS ruling will end up doing is, indeed making all this 100% out loud transparent legal and reasonable.
Do you really think Justice Scalia and Thomas are going to vote against it?
You need Hillary45 to change the courts and render a different verdict.
That is truly, truly, ironic.
(see:what the protest of the war got people circa file 1968...all it got them was Nixon).
LondonReign2
(5,213 posts)How is when the information came out covenient? When would have been a better time for this to come out?
ucrdem
(15,512 posts)where all are pals will be waiting with their knives out.
LondonReign2
(5,213 posts)I find it unlikely anyone would say, "Let's time this to come out...before the G8 meetings."
cliffordu
(30,994 posts)Then he needs a ditch somewhere.
Catherina
(35,568 posts)if that was his angle, he could have sold it off very quietly with no one the wiser for a long time. In the final run though, this is no longer about him but about us. Even if he sells stuff down the road, that won't change what NSA has been doing and the lies they've been telling everyone, especially Congress.
Hope you're not pulling my leg lol and that you're doing well
UTUSN
(70,674 posts)gulliver
(13,180 posts)He spied for the Chinese and is gulling the credulous into thinking he's a hero.
Tarheel_Dem
(31,230 posts)"Hong Kong Eddie" won't be the celebrated hero he was a few days ago. Bank on it!
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)who let them know, he isn't the issue. Jaded smear campaigns are now familiar to the people here and all over the world. The support for whistle blowers demonstrates the failure of attacking the messenger while refusing to deal with the issue. Same old same old, it's yawn inducing at this point.
If they have done nothing wrong they have nothing to hide, so what's all the fuss? Let's get it all out in the open, and end the secret courts and secret trials and secret warrants with no probable cause that is required by the Constitution. That is Bush garbage, we elected Democrats and thankfully Democrats like Ron Wyden has been trying to warn us for a long time about all this.
Hong Kong Ron will be next I suppose.
Well at least it rhymes.
Tarheel_Dem
(31,230 posts)something different. I get that you're prone to hyperbole, but a majority think Snowden should be prosecuted.
"When asked if the government's collection of Americans' phone call records is a necessary tool to help find terrorists, a slight majority of 53 percent say it is.
There is broad support for the government monitoring the internet activities of those living in foreign countries. Seventy-two percent of Americans approve of this practice and there is agreement on this across party lines.
But fewer Americans are concerned about their own personal communications being monitored. Just over a third is at least somewhat concerned about the government collecting their own phone records (38 percent) and monitoring their internet use (35 percent); six in 10 are not concerned.
Asked if the government has gone too far in infringing on people's privacy in its efforts to fight terrorism, 46 percent think the balance is about right, but 36 percent say the government has gone too far. Just 13 percent think the government hasn't gone far enough. Republicans are more likely (42 percent) than Democrats (26 percent) to say the government has gone too far.
But an almost identical number of Americans 53 percent still said he should be prosecuted for the leak, compared to 28% who said he should not."
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023016898
Expect that 53% to grow. Hong Kong? Really?
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)And now for the rest:
But there's more. So far, Gallup has one of the better-worded questions, finding that 53% of Americans disapprove of the NSA spying. A CBS poll also showed that a majorityat 58%of Americans disapprove of the government "collecting phone records of ordinary Americans." And Rasmussenthough sometimes known for push pollingalso recently conducted a poll showing that 59% of Americans are opposed to the current NSA spying.
So, let's see:
CBS = 58% disapproval
Rasmussen = 59% disapproval
And last and least of this batch of polls:
Pew = 56% Approve
There are others, but that will do for now. And those numbers are expected to go up as more information is revealed.
As Ron Wyden, a great Democrat, stated; IF the American people knew what they are doing with the law, they would be outraged'.
Even without knowing all of what they are doing, it appears they are already outraged.
War = Peace
Truth = Lies
Laelth
(32,017 posts)-Laelth
Tarheel_Dem
(31,230 posts)that Americans don't like traitors. He screwed himself by fleeing to Hong Kong, and becoming a tool of the Chinese government. You Occupy types can try and justify that if you like, but as the media keeps digging into Mr. Snowden, the calls for hanging will only grow louder, and will come from some very unlikely sources.
With your usual technique of deliberate obfuscation, and your tendency to make broad grandiose statements (like Snowden), rarely backed up by fact, you changed the subject of my original post. But that's okay. Americans still don't like traitors, and while they disapprove of widespread "domestic" data collection, an equal number think Snowden should prosecuted, and count me among them.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)separate the messenger from the message, as the polls show, WHEN THE MESSAGE IS TRUE. And we won't be distracted by attempts to make this about him.
Have you read the NSA Talking points btw? Good to see a confirmation as they have been all over DU for the past week. As if people didn't recognize them anyhow.
The issue is the violations of the 4th Amendment and that's the only issue.
One other issue you brought up, probably inadvertently. IF it is found that the smears against Snowden ar true, that makes the issue all the more important, doesn't it? That they would place the Rights of the American people in the hands of anyone whose hiring practices are that incompetent, only confirms the fact that these anti-Constitutional, Bush programs have to go.
So bringing up Snowden, on second thoughts, probably is a good idea. This is what people feared most about giving up their rights. Who was in handling that information?
Tarheel_Dem
(31,230 posts)Is this royal "WE" again? More grandiosity from sabrina. I'm shocked! Shocked I say!
Hey, did you ever find that poll to back up your claim that Dennis Kucinich is hugely popular in Europe?
struggle4progress
(118,273 posts)who have ideas about how to move the country in the right direction on various issues, either by carefully paying attention to regulatory actions, or by organizing boycotts, or by going to court, or by demonstrating, or by lobbying congress or the state legislature, or by supporting workers on strike, or by educating the public on the street corner or over the radio, or by working to get our friends into public office and then pushing them into higher office, or by civil disobedience, to name a few
It's been a long slow education for me because I'm not always a fast learner -- but, to be honest, I really believe in the interplay of all the tactics I mentioned above, because the status quo is flexible and evolving: you just never know what might work until you shake the scaffolding to see what loose bolts fall out
I've picked up a few little lessons along the way, though. First, like it or not, political and social struggles depend on reaching out to people you don't know, and who may not initially be sympathetic, and getting them on board after really understanding where THEY come from. Second, you can't know what people are thinking unless you converse with them, and when you converse you better have an understandable analysis based on accurate facts, because your easily-lost credibility depends on that. Third, successful movements for change and reform require the development of new consciousness among people: it's not a matter of having the right leaders or the right heroes or the right slogans: leaders and heroes come and go, and they all have feet of clay
Frankly, I'm not seeing much evidence Mr Snowden has much depth. He's a libertarian who originally supported the Iraq war; for a while (he says) he was with the NSA and the CIA; then he's drawing a healthy salary in Hawaii as an NSA contractor; and then suddenly he pops up in China, claiming to have thousands of NSA documents, and just at the right moment to embarrass the President. That could be all kinds of things. It could be a clumsy CIA attempt to plant a spy in China. It could be a story to cover his recruitment as a Chinese agent. It could be just an adolescent whim of an attention-seeking wannabe. It could be evidence that Mr Snowden is easily manipulated and allowed Mr Greenwald ( who has his own definite agenda) to talk him into this stunt. Or it could be that Mr Snowden, with a sort of well-intentioned (but also ignorant and arrogant) self-righteousness decided that it was the time for him to play martyr-and-messiah. There are probably quite a few other possibilities that have not yet occurred to me. And I'm not really in a great hurry to sort it out
It is certainly true that we need a national discussion about the spying issues Mr Snowden says he is trying to raise. Whether that will be the result of his splash into the headlines, however, remains to be seen, because the actual outcomes here rather depend on who Mr Snowden turns out in fact to be. One particular outcome nevertheless seems likely to me: Congress will once against have an excuse to shove whistleblower protection onto the back burner