Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

Catherina

(35,568 posts)
Fri Jun 14, 2013, 07:19 PM Jun 2013

Snowden Had a Breaking Point, Where He Decided to Risk It All to Fix This Country -- What's Yours?

Snowden Had a Breaking Point, Where He Decided to Risk It All to Fix This Country -- What's Yours?
Change starts with action, and each of us has a way to contribute.


...

Snowden sparked protest, lawsuits, criticism of the administration and US intelligence. His action shows the power that comes when someone inside the system break ranks and tells the truth. Successful movements depend on people breaking ranks: questioning, demurring, disobeying, defecting and withdrawing support. As Ken Butigan writes in Waging Nonviolence, the impact can start a metamorphosis for all of us:

“the individual conscientious objector, the abstainer, and the resister — the one who, as Gandhi said, pits ‘one’s whole soul against the will of a tyrant.’ Not only do the Edward Snowdens of the world help the rest of us see more clearly the realities we are up against — in this case, the institutionalization of unfettered, massive data collection on and profiling of the population — they can shock us into realizing that part of our job description as human beings is our obligation to withdraw our passive or active consent from such policies.”

What is your breaking point? This is the question we must all ask ourselves, especially those who have not yet taken action. As whistleblower Sibel Edmonds wrote this week, the inaction and apathy of people is our greatest enemy: “Apathy is a must ingredient for any police state, authoritarian regime, dictatorship, for abuses of power, for corruption, national atrocities, genocide. . . .”

...

One or a few people can make a tremendous difference. Sam Smith, the editor of Progressive Review, reminds us of the unpredictable power of action, recalling: “there was the time in early 1960 when four black college students sat down at a white-only Woolworth’s lunch counter in Greensboro, NC. Within two weeks, there were sit-ins in 15 cities in five southern states and within two months they had spread to 54 cities in nine states. By April the leaders of these protests had come together, heard a moving sermon by Martin Luther King Jr. and formed the Student Non-Violent Coordinating Committee. Four students did something and America changed. Even they, however, couldn’t know what the result would be.”

...

Carl Gibson, founder of US Uncut, recently spoke to Dennis Trainor, Jr. about the uprising in Iceland as a model for a mass movement in the US. Many of the ingredients are in place in the US such as growing wealth inequality and a government corrupted by big finance. Though it seems we are up against a powerful opponent, we have the information and tools we need to create the society in which we want to live.

...
Much more here: http://www.alternet.org/activism/whats-your-breaking-point-take-action?paging=off
38 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Snowden Had a Breaking Point, Where He Decided to Risk It All to Fix This Country -- What's Yours? (Original Post) Catherina Jun 2013 OP
While working for spies, Snowden was secretly prolific online ProSense Jun 2013 #1
that's a really interesting article, tx nt grasswire Jun 2013 #2
Still, Hong Kong is not quite setting himself on fire. aquart Jun 2013 #3
Thanks For Asking otohara Jun 2013 #4
I'm sorry you didn't get your pony Catherina Jun 2013 #7
Bye Now? otohara Jun 2013 #21
Edward Snowden Demonstrates the Power of Breaking Ranks Catherina Jun 2013 #5
When someone tries to tear down President Obama, Joe Biden, Hillary Clinton, John Kerry, Susan Rice, graham4anything Jun 2013 #6
so when rep sanchez says `tip of the iceberg` Monkie Jun 2013 #9
hey, ya think Bush's program will be ruled illegal by Bush's SCOTUS? That would be groovy. graham4anything Jun 2013 #10
so what are you so afraid of that you will not respond to what i asked you to respond to? Monkie Jun 2013 #13
What am I afraid of? Guns/bullets in the hands of individuals who aren't police or national guard. graham4anything Jun 2013 #16
so you cant respond to what Rep. Sanchez said about secret hearings cause you are scared of guns? Monkie Jun 2013 #22
'I don't stand with Rand'. Do you stand with Fleischer, because he stands with you. Me? I sabrina 1 Jun 2013 #27
He picked an awfully convenient moment to break. ucrdem Jun 2013 #8
What a coinky-dinky, right. At just the time of 2 special elections, immigration, guns, etc. graham4anything Jun 2013 #11
2 international summits, too. Important ones. nt ucrdem Jun 2013 #17
It's definitely no coincidence that he has garnered fame over it loyalsister Jun 2013 #19
for 50 years, the basic tenet of the Bush's is, to take someones best point, and twist it around graham4anything Jun 2013 #20
I don't get the connection here loyalsister Jun 2013 #24
Really? Bush's people are supporting Obama on this. Ari Fleischer praised the President on sabrina 1 Jun 2013 #28
ah, no. They have their own ulterior motives, but it is not the same. Nuance means something to me. graham4anything Jun 2013 #32
How so? LondonReign2 Jun 2013 #12
It puts pressure on him going into the G8 ucrdem Jun 2013 #14
The President is pretty much doing something important al the time LondonReign2 Jun 2013 #38
He's MY hero!! unless, of course he is selling this stuff cliffordu Jun 2013 #15
I'd be disappointed if he sold anything but I highly doubt he will Catherina Jun 2013 #18
Well, let's see: I never cared about luxury in hotel rooms. n/t UTUSN Jun 2013 #23
Or... gulliver Jun 2013 #25
You run with that. I have a feeling after his latest stunt, the American people will disagree. Tarheel_Dem Jun 2013 #26
The American people so far oppose the government spying on them. I doubt they care much about sabrina 1 Jun 2013 #29
Anarchist Wannabe's Unite! Your outrage is duly noted, but the numbers, as usual, say..... Tarheel_Dem Jun 2013 #31
Lol. Thought you'd produce the Pew Poll. sabrina 1 Jun 2013 #33
Excellent post. n/t Laelth Jun 2013 #34
They all show disapproval for domestic spying. That's not news. What IS news is..... Tarheel_Dem Jun 2013 #35
Snowden is irrelevant, he's merely the messenger and the American people can sabrina 1 Jun 2013 #36
"And we won't be distracted by attempts to make this about him." Tarheel_Dem Jun 2013 #37
Frankly, I don't know what his motive was. Over the years, I've worked hard with various people struggle4progress Jun 2013 #30

ProSense

(116,464 posts)
1. While working for spies, Snowden was secretly prolific online
Fri Jun 14, 2013, 07:25 PM
Jun 2013
While working for spies, Snowden was secretly prolific online

By John Shiffman, Mark Hosenball and Kristina Cooke

<...>

An avid gamer, he posted on the ethics of video game piracy in 2003: "I feel the mega corporation is promoting hyper-materialism and I don't like that. That means I want to punish the company in any way I can."

"Legality does not factor into this, getting away with it (OMG dispensing justice LOL!) in order to do it again does," Snowden added. "If my actions contribute to driving the corporation I view as "evil" into the ground, I'll sleep easier at night knowing I have (in my mind) done society a service."

On Ars Technica, Snowden gave more advice than he sought. To others hoping to land U.S. government jobs, he bemoaned high living costs and commuting hassles in Washington.

"My life is great except for the fact that while I'm making twice the average income, I could not afford a house in my zip code without robbing a bank," he wrote in 2006.

- more -

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/06/14/us-usa-security-snowden-online-idUSBRE95D02320130614

aquart

(69,014 posts)
3. Still, Hong Kong is not quite setting himself on fire.
Fri Jun 14, 2013, 07:33 PM
Jun 2013

The only way to know if people will stand with you is to stand up first. Utterly useless are the ones who sidle up afterwards and whisper, "You know, I really agree with you."

Which is what I'm seeing.

Personally, I have no respect for Snowden who is an amazing hero in his own mind, but I am glad we are having this spying on Americans conversation. The ones who are watching us need to know we're watching them.

Booz Allen needs to be called in to justify every hire for the last ten years. I trust them so little I have no particular worries over their spy skills.

 

otohara

(24,135 posts)
4. Thanks For Asking
Fri Jun 14, 2013, 07:34 PM
Jun 2013

I don't have parents who helped me get a cushy govt. job, but I have called and emailed hundreds of times to the various yahoooos in DC..to no avail. Sometimes I've lost it on the phone - I hope Mr. Snowden likes Chinese food and their government, once he learns what they are saying.

Catherina

(35,568 posts)
7. I'm sorry you didn't get your pony
Fri Jun 14, 2013, 07:42 PM
Jun 2013
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Bye now
 

otohara

(24,135 posts)
21. Bye Now?
Fri Jun 14, 2013, 08:29 PM
Jun 2013

no need to get icky, the OP says "What's Yours" - there's not much I can do, but I do what I do to make this country better and have fought with many a snarky interns at Rand Paul's office, Allen West..etc.

I did have my picture taken on a pony once - when we lived in the projects back in the 60's. Never had any expectations for having a pony either .... being disabled from the age of two put the kibosh on many things I wanted to do, but couldn't. I would have settled for two parents and two good legs over a pony any day.

I do find it amusing that Snowden risked it all... when he had it all handed to him due to mommy and daddy.

Plus all this info from The Guardian - you don't trust them do you? All that nasty stuff they said about the new Pope with the fake pics.





Catherina

(35,568 posts)
5. Edward Snowden Demonstrates the Power of Breaking Ranks
Fri Jun 14, 2013, 07:39 PM
Jun 2013

Edward Snowden Demonstrates the Power of Breaking Ranks

By Ken Butigan, www.wagingnonviolence.org
June 13th, 2013

...

This can be more than switching positions. In some cases it can herald a transformation of identity. To no longer support a policy, an institution or a whole system can signal a profound metamorphosis. We no longer identify with this policy. We no longer draw meaning or comfort from going along. At times we break ranks not only with a particular social issue but also from the system, and its assumptions and values, that created and sustained it.

Sometimes, though, the long-term process of a whole society doing this is given a jolt by a particular example: the individual conscientious objector, the abstainer, and the resister — the one who, as Gandhi said, pits “one’s whole soul against the will of a tyrant.” Not only do the Edward Snowdens of the world help the rest of us see more clearly the realities we are up against — in this case, the institutionalization of unfettered, massive data collection on and profiling of the population — they can shock us into realizing that part of our job description as human beings is our obligation to withdraw our passive or active consent from such policies.

...

In many settings over the past 40 years — and especially in the run up to various wars, like the 1991 Persian Gulf War and the U.S. war in Iraq — Ellsberg has urged government employees, contractors and policymakers with security clearances to break ranks with policies of impending destruction and go public. Retired Army Colonel Ann Wright — who was working in the State Department as the war in Iraq was brewing submitted her resignation one day before the invasion began — and a handful of others are examples of conscience trumping silence in this way.

But Ellsberg’s hope does not only hinge on government officials. He believes in people power, something he has affirmed by engaging in innumerable acts of nonviolent resistance and stints in jail in the 40 years since releasing the Pentagon Papers. He invites all of us to break ranks. Without conscientious, coordinated, and creative nonviolent resistance, this superstructure of surveillance and control will simply become more sophisticated, intrusive and anti-democratic. The Roman satirist Juvenalasks in one of his plays, “Who will guard the guardians?” Ultimately, this is up to all of us.

http://www.popularresistance.org/edward-snowden-demonstrates-the-power-of-breaking-ranks/


Beware the propagandists.

Don't entertain their garbage no matter how repetitively they paste their links.

 

graham4anything

(11,464 posts)
6. When someone tries to tear down President Obama, Joe Biden, Hillary Clinton, John Kerry, Susan Rice,
Fri Jun 14, 2013, 07:39 PM
Jun 2013

that goes too far. So the other side loses me with their over the top hyperbole.

Dr. King DID NOT run away and hide.
Dr. King did not heckle.
Dr. King just did.
Dr. King did not attempt to overthrow a president, Dr. King worked very hard with President Lyndon B. Johnson, and the two
were on the same team
Dr. King did not wear a mask or hide his identity or name(in fact, Dr. King was protesting against masks and the anonymity and the John Birch Society, of which people like Ron Paul and George Wallace and Rand Paul and David Duke and Jorg Haider are in synch with.

even Daniel Ellsberg stood trial (and would have been convicted for a long time had Nixon not done illegalities and the charges were dropped).

and being that I am Jewish, and had my family be forced to leave Austira because of Hitler, the Hitler comparisons are just so
silly.

The constitution says UNREASONABLE. Nothing that is being done is illegal nor unreasonable.
And the majority of the public approve of it when one reads the full polls.

BTW, where is the love these days for FDR? His name was mentioned 24/7/365, all of a sudden, no one mentions FDR's name.
Why is that?
Doesn't FDR's mojo fit in with this discussion anymore?

I for one don't cut and run based on some wedge issue.

The constitution itself says this is legal, and if not SCOTUS will change it.
Yeah, I hold my breath awaiting Justice Scalia reading the ruling.

not that anyone wants to hear what Ihave to say.
But I am exercising my right to say it in a civil manner.

regardless what the major league or minor league media thinks.

Ask the alt media, who would Rand Paul pick for the US Supreme Court.
Who would Jeb bush pick for the US Supreme Court.
Who would Ralph Nader pick for the US Supreme Court.

the day the hyperbole would ever stop, is the day a conversation can begin.

I don't stand with Rand.But the alt media, major media, and Jeb Bush does.

Jeb Bush would pick Rand Paul for the same reasons Bush41 picked Dan Quayle. The two are equals.

 

Monkie

(1,301 posts)
9. so when rep sanchez says `tip of the iceberg`
Fri Jun 14, 2013, 07:53 PM
Jun 2013

its just hyperbole?
did you watch cspan speaking to rep. Sanchez, a democrat?

http://thehill.com/video/house/305047-dem-rep-lawmakers-learned-significantly-more-about-surveillance-programs-in-nsa-briefing#ixzz2W1vDJJVM

do you ignore the fact that Clapper lied, and lied poorly, Mueller lied, saying one thing in public hearings ´contradicting` the private one?
its funny how everyone wants to discuss conspiracy theories about snowden, but nobody wants to discuss what sanchez said after being briefed, is that not strange? you can hear crickets chirping in the thread about Rep. Sanchez´s reaction to the secret hearings.

 

graham4anything

(11,464 posts)
10. hey, ya think Bush's program will be ruled illegal by Bush's SCOTUS? That would be groovy.
Fri Jun 14, 2013, 07:57 PM
Jun 2013

why would Scalia and Alito and Roberts and Thomas go against the Bush's?

In fact, they will rule it 100% legal, which will make Jeb/Rand very happy in 2016 if they can fracture the democratic party.

All of a sudden Scalia is against the Bush's? Now, that is something.

 

Monkie

(1,301 posts)
13. so what are you so afraid of that you will not respond to what i asked you to respond to?
Fri Jun 14, 2013, 08:09 PM
Jun 2013

your conspiracy theories are interesting, i dont mind discussing them, but why is everyone so afraid to discuss the actual issue at hand?
why will you not watch what democratic Rep. Sanchez says and discuss it?
she was actually at the secret hearing, you really have nothing to say about this?
you spoke of your family in germany, would they have discussed this or been afraid?

 

graham4anything

(11,464 posts)
16. What am I afraid of? Guns/bullets in the hands of individuals who aren't police or national guard.
Fri Jun 14, 2013, 08:17 PM
Jun 2013

Anarchy is something to be afraid of.

Zimmy in Florida I am afraid of.

I btw, am watching a DVD now so can't watch anything.
Watching the old Get Smart.

I am on the side of Control, against the evil forces of Kaos.
Mel Brooks got it correct all those years ago.

the Hitler references by the way are 100% over the top.

When the hyperbole stops, conversations begin.

 

Monkie

(1,301 posts)
22. so you cant respond to what Rep. Sanchez said about secret hearings cause you are scared of guns?
Fri Jun 14, 2013, 08:34 PM
Jun 2013

i still dont get it i think?
you are not the only person with family that has experiences of that war, or the ´great´ war before that.
japanese internment camps differed from what happened in germany, but they were brutal.
saying my family suffered so i wont speak about the issues at hand might not be hyperbole but it is a cop out.
personally i fear government more than anarchy, if your family suffered at the hands of the nazi state then i am sure that you know your history, and i also know you then cant deny that the surveillance state in the US is far more advanced and comprehensive than anything the nazi´s had, or the stasi, it is unprecedented in human history? you speak of control, but this is what all dictators have wished for, chaos is their enemy, what they fear.

i am on the side of peace, and love.

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
27. 'I don't stand with Rand'. Do you stand with Fleischer, because he stands with you. Me? I
Sat Jun 15, 2013, 02:44 AM
Jun 2013

stand with Democrats, like Wyden who is and always was the most persistent and eloquent defender of our Civil Rights especially during the Bush years when he was a lonely voice many times, standing up for our Constitutional rights.

He too is Jewish, he has a different take on allowing these abuses to continue. His family did flee Germany and thankfully, in time. But not all of his family and friends escaped. He remembers how it all progressed, he recognizes the dangers when he sees them. He knows more of what they are doing. He has been trying, though gagged, to warn the American people for quite a while now.

I also stand with Democrat, Alan Grayson, Democratic Rep Sanchez, Conyers and a whole host of other Democrats.

I don't stand with Republicans, despite their current support for Obama. I know I am on the wrong side if Ari (they-better-watch-what-they-say) Fleischer is on my side. Or Dick Cheney, or Peter (we-count-the-votes) King, or Clapper or Bush.

I'm happy to still be on the opposite side of those Republican morons.

loyalsister

(13,390 posts)
19. It's definitely no coincidence that he has garnered fame over it
Fri Jun 14, 2013, 08:21 PM
Jun 2013

There may be some purity to his motives, he and Greenwald both come across as egomaniacs to me.
It is a worthwhile conversation that could have been initiated in a way that did not shed so much light on the actors and their hyperbole that the need, process, and actual possible solutions are almost overshadowed.

 

graham4anything

(11,464 posts)
20. for 50 years, the basic tenet of the Bush's is, to take someones best point, and twist it around
Fri Jun 14, 2013, 08:24 PM
Jun 2013

So, blaming Obama for what Bush's did, is so typical of 41 and all of his people including Karl Rove.

That is what they did with John Kerry and Al Gore and what they tried, but couldn't do to Bill Clinton and Barack Obama.

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
28. Really? Bush's people are supporting Obama on this. Ari Fleischer praised the President on
Sat Jun 15, 2013, 02:49 AM
Jun 2013

Anderson Cooper this week 'for keeping Bush's policies and protecting the American people'. Peter King supports Obama also. And of course there are all those Republicans Obama appointed to his cabinet, not to mention Republican Clapper, Director of Intelligence (why is a Republican in that position, are there no Democrats Obama could find for all these powerful positions?

Don't worry, Obama has plenty of Republican support on this. It was their idea after all, to spy on the American people.

 

graham4anything

(11,464 posts)
32. ah, no. They have their own ulterior motives, but it is not the same. Nuance means something to me.
Sat Jun 15, 2013, 03:52 AM
Jun 2013

Same as Ron Paul tells people he loves to toke, but in reality as a doctor, I bet he never even partook.
He is an ultra conservative.
What he likes is the kids money who donate to his lavish lifestyle, and his sons lifestyle, so he says he loves pot.

Oddity is Texas and Kentucky are two of the top states for the harshest penalties if caught with any at all.
(they even harass Willie Nelson and Snoop Dog(Lion) day in, day out).
Shows that the Paul family doesn't practice what they say. All they want is to cull voters to their team.

btw, NO ONE is spying and maybe, when the hyperbole stops, then a conversation can begin.
But we can not discuss anything longst as that hyperbole continues.

After all, no info is being learned except after a warrant. And the fourth says UNREASONABLE and nothing is unreasonable as the court already ok'd it.

And as Boston proves, they are not looking for two kids going on thrill kills, they are looking for international terror orgs
who's members have direct contact with bin-laden (til he was caught and apprehended), and the other biggies.

They are not(unlike ron and rand) peeping into anything

And anyone who buys 1984 (a really juvenile book that was so, well 1980s), on Amazon, has more info known about them
just from the big River, than the nsa.

But it makes a good soundbyte.

Of course the Bush's are doing this, because, and thanks to it, it will be blessed by Scalia and Thomas, and after that,
watch what happens.

If you recall, it is how they made Oliver North into a free man, and a national treasure to republicans/Fox and conservatives all over
(with the ACLU blessing of all things).

Remember how (if you are old enough) back in 1988 when Bush41 mocked the ACLU and Mike Dukakis, and called them
un-American. Well, Bush41 sure loved the ACLU when it freed Jolly Olly.

And just because people back then said they didn't like W, did NOT correspond to them liking Obama.
After all, Cheney himself did not like W in the 2nd term either. So this fake faux unreal bush=Obama is statistical static,
i.e. meaningless.

As I am from NYC, and every day, five or so minutes from my house see the NYC skyline, instantly one is reminded of 9-11.

And, thanks for mentioning Peter King REPUBLICAN.
What do you think Mr. King would do if the President dictator style snapped his fingers and it was gone?
He would say the democratic party is soft on security, and guess what

it would be the biggest landslide of all time for the republican party

because the 95% of the democratic party strongly supports the president

and I bet, judging by the past, the 5% on the far far left still would not support the democratic party, being that most
are Ron Paul/ Rand Paul/ Ralph Nader/ Jill Stein supporters, so it would be a net loss.

Meanwhile, not one Ron Paul/Jill Stein supporter wants gun control.
Isn't that weird?
What takes away more rights than the 2nd amendment as interpreted now?

BTW, difference between this Snow guy and Ellsberg is- Ellsberg stood trial, never ran, and put himself out there.
This guy is just an illusion, one doesn't even know anything about him at all.

Ellsberg readily accepted jail, and in fact would have been sentenced to decades or life in jail, but for technicalities that
got his charges dropped, same as Ollie got his dropped.

Didn't mean Olly North wasn't guilty. Just meant he got off.

BTW- I see no difference between this and the leaker of Valerie Plame. And nothing was done about that.
In fact, in Valerie's case, it was far worse than anything here.
I would say 100 to 1.

So Bush will be laughing when Jeb is president and Rand is VP, and then, truly, Jefferson's words will ring out again.
The only ones considered people will be those that look and acted like Jefferson did in his own life.

And never forget, Rand Paul is part of Team Bush.

Think I will stick with Team Obama.

and all the SCOTUS ruling will end up doing is, indeed making all this 100% out loud transparent legal and reasonable.

Do you really think Justice Scalia and Thomas are going to vote against it?

You need Hillary45 to change the courts and render a different verdict.

That is truly, truly, ironic.

(see:what the protest of the war got people circa file 1968...all it got them was Nixon).

LondonReign2

(5,213 posts)
12. How so?
Fri Jun 14, 2013, 08:03 PM
Jun 2013

How is when the information came out covenient? When would have been a better time for this to come out?

ucrdem

(15,512 posts)
14. It puts pressure on him going into the G8
Fri Jun 14, 2013, 08:11 PM
Jun 2013

where all are pals will be waiting with their knives out.

LondonReign2

(5,213 posts)
38. The President is pretty much doing something important al the time
Sat Jun 15, 2013, 07:02 PM
Jun 2013

I find it unlikely anyone would say, "Let's time this to come out...before the G8 meetings."

Catherina

(35,568 posts)
18. I'd be disappointed if he sold anything but I highly doubt he will
Fri Jun 14, 2013, 08:21 PM
Jun 2013

if that was his angle, he could have sold it off very quietly with no one the wiser for a long time. In the final run though, this is no longer about him but about us. Even if he sells stuff down the road, that won't change what NSA has been doing and the lies they've been telling everyone, especially Congress.

Hope you're not pulling my leg lol and that you're doing well

Tarheel_Dem

(31,230 posts)
26. You run with that. I have a feeling after his latest stunt, the American people will disagree.
Sat Jun 15, 2013, 02:24 AM
Jun 2013

"Hong Kong Eddie" won't be the celebrated hero he was a few days ago. Bank on it!

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
29. The American people so far oppose the government spying on them. I doubt they care much about
Sat Jun 15, 2013, 02:57 AM
Jun 2013

who let them know, he isn't the issue. Jaded smear campaigns are now familiar to the people here and all over the world. The support for whistle blowers demonstrates the failure of attacking the messenger while refusing to deal with the issue. Same old same old, it's yawn inducing at this point.

If they have done nothing wrong they have nothing to hide, so what's all the fuss? Let's get it all out in the open, and end the secret courts and secret trials and secret warrants with no probable cause that is required by the Constitution. That is Bush garbage, we elected Democrats and thankfully Democrats like Ron Wyden has been trying to warn us for a long time about all this.

Hong Kong Ron will be next I suppose.

Well at least it rhymes.



Tarheel_Dem

(31,230 posts)
31. Anarchist Wannabe's Unite! Your outrage is duly noted, but the numbers, as usual, say.....
Sat Jun 15, 2013, 03:41 AM
Jun 2013

something different. I get that you're prone to hyperbole, but a majority think Snowden should be prosecuted.

"When asked if the government's collection of Americans' phone call records is a necessary tool to help find terrorists, a slight majority of 53 percent say it is.

There is broad support for the government monitoring the internet activities of those living in foreign countries. Seventy-two percent of Americans approve of this practice and there is agreement on this across party lines.

But fewer Americans are concerned about their own personal communications being monitored. Just over a third is at least somewhat concerned about the government collecting their own phone records (38 percent) and monitoring their internet use (35 percent); six in 10 are not concerned.

Asked if the government has gone too far in infringing on people's privacy in its efforts to fight terrorism, 46 percent think the balance is about right, but 36 percent say the government has gone too far. Just 13 percent think the government hasn't gone far enough. Republicans are more likely (42 percent) than Democrats (26 percent) to say the government has gone too far.

But an almost identical number of Americans — 53 percent — still said he should be prosecuted for the leak, compared to 28% who said he should not."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023016898


Expect that 53% to grow. Hong Kong? Really?


sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
33. Lol. Thought you'd produce the Pew Poll.
Sat Jun 15, 2013, 04:42 AM
Jun 2013
Multiple New Polls Show Americans Reject Wholesale NSA Domestic Spying

The only poll showing less than a majority on the side of government overreach was Pew Research Center, which asked Americans whether it was acceptable that the NSA obtained "secret court orders to track the calls of millions of Americans to investigate terrorism." Pew reported that 56% of Americans said it was "acceptable." But the question is poorly worded. It doesn't mention the widespread, dragnet nature of the spying. It also neglects to describe the "information" being given—metadata, which is far more sensitive and can provide far more information than just the ability to "track the calls" of Americans. And it was conducted early on in the scandal, before it was revealed that the NSA doesn't even have to obtain court orders to search already collected information.


And now for the rest:

Yesterday, the Guardian released a comprehensive poll showing widespread concern about NSA spying. Two-thirds of Americans think the NSA's role should be reviewed. The poll also showed Americans demanding accountability and more information from public officials—two key points of our recently launched stopwatching.us campaign.

But there's more. So far, Gallup has one of the better-worded questions, finding that 53% of Americans disapprove of the NSA spying. A CBS poll also showed that a majority—at 58%—of Americans disapprove of the government "collecting phone records of ordinary Americans." And Rasmussen—though sometimes known for push polling—also recently conducted a poll showing that 59% of Americans are opposed to the current NSA spying.


So, let's see:

Gallop = 53% disapproval

CBS = 58% disapproval

Rasmussen = 59% disapproval

And last and least of this batch of polls:

Pew = 56% Approve


There are others, but that will do for now. And those numbers are expected to go up as more information is revealed.

As Ron Wyden, a great Democrat, stated; IF the American people knew what they are doing with the law, they would be outraged'.

Even without knowing all of what they are doing, it appears they are already outraged.

Hyperbole = Facts!

War = Peace

Truth = Lies

Tarheel_Dem

(31,230 posts)
35. They all show disapproval for domestic spying. That's not news. What IS news is.....
Sat Jun 15, 2013, 04:03 PM
Jun 2013

that Americans don't like traitors. He screwed himself by fleeing to Hong Kong, and becoming a tool of the Chinese government. You Occupy types can try and justify that if you like, but as the media keeps digging into Mr. Snowden, the calls for hanging will only grow louder, and will come from some very unlikely sources.

With your usual technique of deliberate obfuscation, and your tendency to make broad grandiose statements (like Snowden), rarely backed up by fact, you changed the subject of my original post. But that's okay. Americans still don't like traitors, and while they disapprove of widespread "domestic" data collection, an equal number think Snowden should prosecuted, and count me among them.

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
36. Snowden is irrelevant, he's merely the messenger and the American people can
Sat Jun 15, 2013, 04:55 PM
Jun 2013

separate the messenger from the message, as the polls show, WHEN THE MESSAGE IS TRUE. And we won't be distracted by attempts to make this about him.

Have you read the NSA Talking points btw? Good to see a confirmation as they have been all over DU for the past week. As if people didn't recognize them anyhow.

The issue is the violations of the 4th Amendment and that's the only issue.

One other issue you brought up, probably inadvertently. IF it is found that the smears against Snowden ar true, that makes the issue all the more important, doesn't it? That they would place the Rights of the American people in the hands of anyone whose hiring practices are that incompetent, only confirms the fact that these anti-Constitutional, Bush programs have to go.

So bringing up Snowden, on second thoughts, probably is a good idea. This is what people feared most about giving up their rights. Who was in handling that information?

Tarheel_Dem

(31,230 posts)
37. "And we won't be distracted by attempts to make this about him."
Sat Jun 15, 2013, 05:22 PM
Jun 2013

Is this royal "WE" again? More grandiosity from sabrina. I'm shocked! Shocked I say!

Hey, did you ever find that poll to back up your claim that Dennis Kucinich is hugely popular in Europe?

struggle4progress

(118,273 posts)
30. Frankly, I don't know what his motive was. Over the years, I've worked hard with various people
Sat Jun 15, 2013, 03:09 AM
Jun 2013

who have ideas about how to move the country in the right direction on various issues, either by carefully paying attention to regulatory actions, or by organizing boycotts, or by going to court, or by demonstrating, or by lobbying congress or the state legislature, or by supporting workers on strike, or by educating the public on the street corner or over the radio, or by working to get our friends into public office and then pushing them into higher office, or by civil disobedience, to name a few

It's been a long slow education for me because I'm not always a fast learner -- but, to be honest, I really believe in the interplay of all the tactics I mentioned above, because the status quo is flexible and evolving: you just never know what might work until you shake the scaffolding to see what loose bolts fall out

I've picked up a few little lessons along the way, though. First, like it or not, political and social struggles depend on reaching out to people you don't know, and who may not initially be sympathetic, and getting them on board after really understanding where THEY come from. Second, you can't know what people are thinking unless you converse with them, and when you converse you better have an understandable analysis based on accurate facts, because your easily-lost credibility depends on that. Third, successful movements for change and reform require the development of new consciousness among people: it's not a matter of having the right leaders or the right heroes or the right slogans: leaders and heroes come and go, and they all have feet of clay

Frankly, I'm not seeing much evidence Mr Snowden has much depth. He's a libertarian who originally supported the Iraq war; for a while (he says) he was with the NSA and the CIA; then he's drawing a healthy salary in Hawaii as an NSA contractor; and then suddenly he pops up in China, claiming to have thousands of NSA documents, and just at the right moment to embarrass the President. That could be all kinds of things. It could be a clumsy CIA attempt to plant a spy in China. It could be a story to cover his recruitment as a Chinese agent. It could be just an adolescent whim of an attention-seeking wannabe. It could be evidence that Mr Snowden is easily manipulated and allowed Mr Greenwald ( who has his own definite agenda) to talk him into this stunt. Or it could be that Mr Snowden, with a sort of well-intentioned (but also ignorant and arrogant) self-righteousness decided that it was the time for him to play martyr-and-messiah. There are probably quite a few other possibilities that have not yet occurred to me. And I'm not really in a great hurry to sort it out

It is certainly true that we need a national discussion about the spying issues Mr Snowden says he is trying to raise. Whether that will be the result of his splash into the headlines, however, remains to be seen, because the actual outcomes here rather depend on who Mr Snowden turns out in fact to be. One particular outcome nevertheless seems likely to me: Congress will once against have an excuse to shove whistleblower protection onto the back burner

Latest Discussions»General Discussion»Snowden Had a Breaking Po...