If Greenwald and Snowden are heroes, why aren't they talking about Syria?

[ucrdem]

Why are they trying to scare up storm over programs launched by Bush-Cheney and cleaned up by Obama at the very moment dubious evidence is being used to push the US into yet another catastrophe in the Middle East? Just yesterday the Obama administration reluctantly made a concession to the drum-beaters to increase military aid to Syrian "rebels," which I was really hoping wouldn't happen:

Sources: U.S. to send small arms, ammo to Syrian rebels
By Saad Abedine and Barbara Starr, CNN
updated 6:54 PM EDT, Fri June 14, 2013

http://www.cnn.com/2013/06/14/world/meast/syria-civil-war/

Isn't trying to prevent US military intervention in a sovereign nation more important than kneecapping Obama at a US-China summit and getting a national scare on about the NSA? Does NSA-gate sound like something a progressive hero would focus attention on at this vital moment? It doesn't to me.

[Fumesucker]

1. I for one want to know where Greenwald and Snowden stand on austerity.

How can any critic of the system have any credibility at all if they don't address austerity?

[ucrdem]

2. Okay point taken, but the residents of Austerity have nothing to fear.

Syrians however are not so fortunate.

[dgibby]

79. Could you please tell me which continent Austerity is on?

I wasn't worried about the Austerity residents until you mentioned them, but now I'm concerned. Couldn't find it on a map. Your help would be greatly appreciated.

[ucrdem]

80. I think it's on Risibilia

next to Ribaldistan. But googlemaps is down atm so I'll get back to you later with the details.

[dgibby]

82. Are you sure it's not Oceania

or maybe Eastasia? I'm sooo confused!

[ucrdem]

83. I'll have to Ask Jeeves

when he gets back.

[aquart]

3. My first laugh of the day and it's after 4:30. Thanks!

[railsback]

43. Everyone is really good at cherry-picking their priorities

Even here.

[Luminous Animal]

4. Waaaa! Why isn't Greenwald writing about everything I care about!

Why isn't he an expert on EVERYTHING! Why isn't he writing about pepperpots!

[ucrdem]

5. Thanks, I think we've covered that angle.

Now can we start to think about why Greenwald and his backers chose this particular moment to roll out the latest episode of RNC Theater Presents?

[Luminous Animal]

6. I won't answer your question until you find out why Greenwald isn't writing about pepperpots.

[ucrdem]

8. Let's set GG and Snowboy aside for a moment.

They caused a huge ruckus which like the last several ruckuses is proving to have no substance. But it's been a huge distraction at a moment we really need to focus on this Syria intervention before we're bombing yet another sovereign nation into the stone age.

Do you think the time of NSA-gate was purely coincidental?

[nadinbrzezinski]

11. I thought yesterday this Syria thing was

wag the dog...damn, thanks for proving it.



And before you say it, no Assad is not a good guy...by the way I am not surprised, but the timing of Syria now is rather curious to this cynic. And that tinfoil really goes well with my clothes...it matches.

[ucrdem]

13. Wag the dog is one way of putting it.

Another would be to say that enormous pressure is being exerted on the Obama administration and NSA-gate is part of it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

17. You might want to do some reading

This NSA-gate is a serious story. So excuse me while wag the dog *at this moment* and the Cold War with Iran comes up as primary motive and not Sarin Gas.

[ucrdem]

19. I have and I'm encouraged that the Obama admin has acted responsibly

in contrast to the regime that actually launched all this crap. Syria is an entirely different order of magnitude. I don't know how you feel about it but I strongly object to military or any other aid to what used to be known as Al Qaeda.

[nadinbrzezinski]

29. We have been in Syria

For a while...seriously.

They are just making it official.

But secret wars are ok, even wars against the American citizenry.

They are waving the bloody flag to distract from the NSA scandal. Those are the Crown Jewels and did not start with Bush...it started with Truman. That's what I mean about reading .

[ucrdem]

30. We have not been dropping bombs in Syria.

But our allies especially UK and France would very much like us to have their backs. One of the things I like about Obama is that his resistance to war-mongering is exemplary. If he ultimately gives in, and I hope he doesn't, it won't be because he didn't put up a good fight.

[nadinbrzezinski]

34. My god, you don't need to physically drop *bombs.*

I will leave it at that.

Suffice it to say, whether I like it or not, we are going full in...this is about Iran and the pnac plan.

Oh forgive me, to tje NSA bots...fuck Hoover...read the fourth amendment guys

(I used words in the dictionary)

[dgibby]

81. Not bombs.

Think CIA, think black ops, think civilian contractors like Blackwater, think cyber wars.

[Luminous Animal]

31. Gate? Let's retire that sorry assed 40 year old suffix.

As I told my daughter when she was 15 and listening to my old punk rock albums... "Quit poaching on my generation, create your own."

If you are so concerned about Syria, then create your own movement with like-minded comrades against it or join one already in existence. I have.

[muriel_volestrangler]

42. Syria has been an issue for over a year

Are you saying that Snowden should have waited until it was resolved? That could take months, or even years.

[ucrdem]

48. But the public committment to send weapons came TODAY.

http://www.cnn.com/2013/06/14/world/meast/syria-civil-war/

[muriel_volestrangler]

49. So you're accusing Obama of trying to hide sending weapons inside the NSA affair?

Well, it might be possible, but I'd say that the confirmation of the use of nerve gas was what pushed him. But, if you want to accuse Obama of trying to bury bad news, go ahead.

[ucrdem]

59. No of course not. But the NSA affair weakens his bargaining position

at the G8 where our allies are very eager for our help in their latest caper.

[muriel_volestrangler]

77. Honestly, you're making no sense whatsoever

You seem to be saying random things. Judging from your other posts on the NSA affair, you seem to want something to make Snowden and Greenwald look bad. In this thread, you've tried Syria, and no-one seems to think you have said anything worth talking about - everyone is laughing at the OP. Now you're talking about the G8 and a 'caper'. Are you just picking things at random from the headlines in the hope of getting someone to think you make sense?

[ucrdem]

78. I'll put you down for "disagree." nt

[DisgustipatedinCA]

9. It's pretty obvious to me that Greenwald is trying to keep people from focusing...

...on the grass fire in Cotati next to the freeway.

http://www.pressdemocrat.com/article/20130614/ARTICLES/130619780/1350?Title=Catalytic-converter-suspected-in-Hwy-101-grass-fire

[nadinbrzezinski]

12. And I thought it was the house fire in Santee

(Well played, well played)

The fire is in overhaul by the way

[zappaman]

15. This deserves its own OP. n/t

[Whisp]

7. That sounds quite familiar...

Waaaa! Why isn't Obama doing everything I care about!

Why isn't he an expert on EVERYTHING! What is he doing about pepperpots!

[ucrdem]

10. Yeah I thought only BOrGers made that arugment.

Next up: where's my pony?

[Luminous Animal]

20. Funny. But it is Obama's job to address everything in regards to national policy

If he wasn't up to the task, he shouldn't have run for president. And he has a huge staff and and control of oodles of departments with huge staffs to do all the expert grunt work and deliver their reports.

[Whisp]

24. and all the Presidents before him weren't up to the task either, were they?

Otherwise when Obama stepped into office it would have been smooth sailing, instead he got a bleeding nightmare to live with for 8 years.

No one knows what waits on that desk when they campaign.

ha! well, except the Clintons and the Bushes.

[NoOneMan]

14. And what is their stance on circumcision?

Huh? Why the silence? I wan't my heroes to be there on every human issue!

Oh, not saying anything is making the loudest statement. I hear them loud and clear, those bastard!

[ucrdem]

16. Bombing a nation to smithereens is not exactly on the same scale as circumcision.

Is it?

[NoOneMan]

26. Tell that to the billions of foreskins rotting in local landfills

Billions!


Look....some people don't do every issue. Some people get their stuff out there and focus on their expertise. I don't see where you are coming from at all on this one.

Yeah, bombing sucks. How else can the US control the geopolitical situation to ensure they can keep heating up the globe burning their cheap dirty oil?

Why aren't those guys saying anything about global warming (which will kill far, far, far more people than the Syrian war in our lifetime). I'd rather they not.

[LondonReign2]

18. Is this supposed to be an attempt at logic?

[Luminous Animal]

21. Unfortunately, yes.

[ucrdem]

23. It's an effort to look at the big picture

which as of last night I find extremely disturbing.

[DesMoinesDem]

22. LOL. Dumbest post ever?

[ucrdem]

27. I've seen a few dumber. nt

[burnodo]

37. +1

[Marr]

25. Let me get this straight.

They're villains for what they're NOT talking about now?

Some of you apologists are really bad at this.

[ucrdem]

28. Forget the daring duo. The point is that NSA-gate is distraction

from a much more serious issue, namely US military intervention in Syria.

[Luminous Animal]

32. Believe it or not, DUers can rub their tummy and pat their heads at the same time.

[nadinbrzezinski]

35. And spying on the American people is pretty dam

Serious. I wonder if our friend is enlisting...soon

[ucrdem]

38. Which friend?

Surely you get my point here nadin?

[nadinbrzezinski]

39. Well, part f the huge big picture you are missing

Is opinion control...you have not seem anything yet, starting at places like the army and NSA.

It used to be illegal to lie to the American people, not anymore.

That is a huge big picture.



Sorry if this s missed.

[dgibby]

85. Maybe not illegal,

but is sure as hell is unconstitutional, especially when it's being done by a branch of DOD.

[Gravitycollapse]

60. I'm pretty sure spying on millions of Americans is an extremely serious issue.

Nice try though.

[ucrdem]

62. And there's no evidence that anyone is. nt

[Gravitycollapse]

64. Except the fact that there's a lot of evidence.

[ucrdem]

65. Except that there isn't. Metadata is not considered private and is not protected

by the 4th amendment.

[Gravitycollapse]

66. I never mentioned the legality. I said they were spying. Which they are.

But keep arguing that technicality. It doesn't look at all like you're grasping at straws.

[ucrdem]

67. Well, the IRS is also spying in that sense, ditto the SSA.

But they aren't listening in on anyone's cyber-chats without a FISA warrant and that's what I'd consider spying.

[Gravitycollapse]

68. The IRS is data mining without our consent?

[ucrdem]

69. Depends on what you mean by consent.

Is it lawful and constitutional according to the SC, yes. So I give my consent, but I imagine some might disagree, like this estimable defender of our freedumbs:

[Gravitycollapse]

70. So what data does the IRS covertly mine?

[ucrdem]

71. The IRS routinely mines data they collect.

It's called auditing and it's their job.

[Gravitycollapse]

73. Auditing only occurs when there is evidence of wrongdoing or a mistake...

And is performed by a small team, often even one person, who personally goes through the financial information of the person in question. It is all transparent and with good cause and is subject to accountability both by the person being audited, the IRS administration and the legal system at large.

It is not a clandestine operation anonymously mining zettabytes of data from millions of Americans.

So, yeah, really grasping at those straws.

[ucrdem]

74. And who catches the mistakes and evidence of wrongdoing?

Let me guess, Glenn Greenwald?

[Gravitycollapse]

75. Is this funny to you? Maybe that's the problem because it's not funny.

[ucrdem]

76. Okay I'll give you that, it isn't funny. nt

[dgibby]

84. Here's the problem:

The NSA is collecting personal data on all of us. This, in and of itself, is unconstitutional because NSA is part of the Dept of Defense, which is explicitly barred by the Constitution from any activity targeting US citizens. DOD is only allowed to target foreign entities.

NSA has outsourced this data collection to civilian contractors, one of which Booz-Allen-Hamilton, which is 70% owned by The Carlyle Group, which is closely connected the the Bush Family and their friends.

FISA Court judges have been appointed by the most conservative SCOTUS in my lifetime (I'm 67), thereby almost assuredly guaranteeing NSA will have no problem getting a warrant for whatever it wants. In fact, the head of NSA is referred to as the Emperor by agency insiders because he gets whatever he wants whenever he wants it, meaning he's one of, if not THE, most powerful person in America.

There is little to no Congressional Oversight due to the fact that the briefings are scheduled to coincide with the time our elected representatives are knocking each other down to get out of town for one of their 4 day weekends. In addition, they don't want to be briefed because then they can't talk about anything in the briefing.

According to those members of Congress who have spoken out, this program is much more intensive, far reaching, and invasive than was intended when it was devised.

Some of the witnesses called to testify before Congress (Clapper, for one) have admitted they were untruthful under oath.

The problem with these secret programs is that, while we are told there are checks and balances, there is NO PROOF that what they're telling us is the truth.

Given the government's penchant for being less than truthful with We, The People, I, for one, am quite skeptical of anything I'm told. Don't kid yourself, this NSA mess is a BIG 'Effin' Deal.

[graham4anything]

33. As they say on Broadway, it's always about the timing.

[ucrdem]

36. Exactly. And the G8 summit starts Monday

in fact I heard that Holder is already there:

Crash course: The G8 summit
Liam O'Brien , Simon Usborne Saturday 15 June 2013


This year’s meeting of the Group of Eight – or the G8 – begins in Fermanagh, Northern Ireland, on Monday. The summit draws the world’s most powerful leaders – as well as protests and disruption.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/politics/crash-course-the-g8-summit-8656314.html

[ucrdem]

40. . . . and then there was that disastrous Obama-Xi summit last weekend

preceded by a mass shooting the first day:


http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014502822

[graham4anything]

41. And as said, the 2 special elections Markey and Booker.

Markey will be closer. If they can deflate the democratic vote, they can steal that seat, and others.

[ucrdem]

44. Right, I'd forgotten about those.

MA is June 25 I think, a week from Tuesday. And that would be a huge loss.

[Warren Stupidity]

45. Why aren't they buying me lattes at 'bucks? Huh?

Heroes? Meh.

[Marrah_G]

46. I find your posts amusingly transparent.

[Trajan]

47. Why haven't they cured cancer?

Those BASTARDS!

[WovenGems]

50. OOPS!

Sending M16's to a bunch folks who grew up using AK47's is going to get bunch of Sunni(rebels) killed.

[bowens43]

51. If by cleaned up, you mean expand then you got obama right

to say that protecting our constitution should be ignored in order to stop obama from making yet another mistake is ridiculous.

Yes, contrary to your very strange concept of progressive , protecting our civil rights is absolutely something a progressive should focus on.

[still_one]

52. That is not snowden's issue. However, Greenwald does talk about it, but not when the rebels or

civilians were be killed by the government, or when they used poison gas.

Nope, he talked about it when Israel attacked the borders of Syria, which Israel said were missiles intended for Hezbollah in Lebanon, and where he condemned Israel.

Regardless, whether one believes or not Israel's position, Mr. Greewald's causes are very selective. He obviously has little to say about the civil war in Syria, or Muslims killing Muslims, but any opportunity he has to criticize Israel, he will not miss.

I love selective journalism

[muriel_volestrangler]

53. He also talked about whether a rebel suicide bombing would be called terrorism

http://www.salon.com/2012/07/18/the_damascus_suicide_bombing/

That's Muslims killing Muslims.

[still_one]

55. His view of events is as selective as he is criticizing

others of doing

[markpkessinger]

54. On the other hand . . .

. . . and call me a cynic if you like, but it seems to me that the sudden ratcheting up of rhetoric about Syria serves the function of a bright, new, shiny object to distract us from thinking about these pesky NSA issues.

[ucrdem]

56. I wouldn't rule it out.

That's usually what's meant by "wag the dog," a term based on the perception that whenever Bill Clinton got in hot water he would divert attention by launching bombing sorties against terrorists. There was even a 1997 movie with a Clinton-like president filming fake stories of brutalized peasants in a studio. From wiki:

Just days before a presidential election, a Washington, D.C. spin doctor (De Niro), distracts the electorate from a sex scandal by hiring a Hollywood film producer (Hoffman) to construct a fake war with Albania. The film was released just prior to the Lewinsky scandal and the subsequent bombing of terrorist strongholds in Africa.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wag_the_Dog

I saw it and it was kind of a long one-liner. On the other hand, on the day Clinton was impeached in 1998 -- which happened to be my birthday -- he launched a bombing sortie in Iraq as I vividly recall.

So it's conceivable though I think with Obama it would be more a case of strategically choosing his battles and throwing Assad overboard to keep the ship of state afloat. But the bottom line is that even if last night's weapons announcement was partly or wholly wag the dog, he wouldn't need to wag it if he wasn't getting hammered by the NSA story.

[reorg]

57. so, when they are going to bomb Syria

it'll be all Greenwald's fault, got it.

[ucrdem]

63. Greenwald will be the first to heap burning coals on Obama, have no fear.

And this little caper of his will be yesterday's news.

[GeorgeGist]

58. All Syria. All the time.

Got it.

[ucrdem]

61. It will be in short order if past is prologue.

And the loudest complainers then will be the loudest complainers now. Fine, I'm just suggesting that there might be a connection and it wouldn't hurt to be cognizant of it.

[MNBrewer]

72. If they're heroes, why haven't they cured cancer?