Sarin my ass. they're LYING to us again.

[cali]

Chemical weapons experts still skeptical about U.S. claim that Syria used sarin

Chemical weapons experts voiced skepticism Friday about U.S. claims that the government of Syrian President Bashar Assad had used the nerve agent sarin against rebels on at least four occasions this spring, saying that while the use of such a weapon is always possible, they’ve yet to see the telltale signs of a sarin gas attack, despite months of scrutiny.

“It’s not unlike Sherlock Holmes and the dog that didn’t bark,” said Jean Pascal Zanders, a leading expert on chemical weapons who until recently was a senior research fellow at the European Union’s Institute for Security Studies. “It’s not just that we can’t prove a sarin attack, it’s that we’re not seeing what we would expect to see from a sarin attack.”

Foremost among those missing items, Zanders said, are cellphone photos and videos of the attacks or the immediate aftermath.

“In a world where even the secret execution of Saddam Hussein was taped by someone, it doesn’t make sense that we don’t see videos, that we don’t see photos, showing bodies of the dead, and the reddened faces and the bluish extremities of the affected,” he said.

Other experts said that while they were willing to give the U.S. intelligence community the benefit of the doubt, the Obama administration has yet to offer details of what evidence it has and how it obtained it.

Read more here: http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2013/06/14/194016/chemical-weapons-experts-still.html?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter&utm_term=news#storylink=cpy

And no, sorry, I don't automatically believe President Obama. I want fucking indisputable PROOF of claims that supposedly justify military intervention.


And yes, I'm angry about it.

[malaise]

1. Of course

they are lying

[Califa]

53. That's because

endless war = endless profits for the freeloading Military Industrial Welfare Kings

[suffragette]

74. Looks like Blair is revving up again

Urging intervention in Syria and, of course, regime change in Iran as well. And he has kept himself deep in the Middle East mix as an envoy and consultant.
Raises alarm bells for me.




http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/15/tony-blair-west-intervene-syria



Britain should arm the Syrian rebels and consider imposing a no-fly zone over Syria to prevent "catastrophic consequences", Tony Blair has said.

~~~


Blair suggested that regime change in Syria was inevitable. "People are no longer going to accept that a minority ruled the country without the say of the majority. It's exactly the arguments we went through over Iraq," he said.

He also reiterated his criticism of Iran, claiming that the transition across the Middle East was being complicated by the policies of the Islamic republic.

"It's not just trying to acquire nuclear weapons, it's trying to export an ideology and an extremism around the region. They continue to meddle in Iraq. It's a hugely destabilising force. I would be 100% more optimistic about the speed with which the region could change if that Iranian regime weren't there."

[malaise]

76. David Kelly will get him in the end

Lennon sang about this crippled scumbag

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=cx0di2_rWUI&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3Dcx0di2_rWUI

[suffragette]

80. "You can live a lie until you die"

I had not seen that before. The lyrics fit Blair well.

And from what Blair said above, it looks like he's still pushing the PNAC agenda and given his Quartet and consulting roles, he still, sadly, has influence in this area.

[malaise]

102. One of my favorite John Lennon songs

[suffragette]

110. Thanks. Now a new favorite for me, too!

[russspeakeasy]

111. +1

[2naSalit]

78. Screw Tony Blair nt

[suffragette]

81. Agree with that completely

But it's good to keep tabs on him since he still has influence through his role with Quartet and his consulting role.

[TakeALeftTurn]

98. Neocon Blair

Typical - he should be carted off to the Hague to face charges of war crimes and rot in jail for the rest of his days.

After fining him, every red cent that he and his family have got.

[nikto]

136. By far, the most important chemical involving Syria...

Is OIL.

[cali]

2. More from the same article

Philip Coyle, a senior scientist at the Center for Arms Control and Non-Proliferation in Washington, said that without hard, public evidence, it’s difficult for experts to assess the validity of the administration’s statement. He added that from what is known, what happened doesn’t look like a series of sarin attacks to him.

“Without blood samples, it’s hard to know,” he said. “But I admit I hope there isn’t a blood sample, because I’m still hopeful that sarin has not been used.”

Even a proponent of the United States providing military assistance to the rebels raised doubts about the possible motive for announcing the chemical weapons conclusion.

In a passionate argument for U.S. involvement in Syria, Anthony Cordesman, a security expert at the Center for Strategic and International Studies in Washington, wrote Friday that “the ‘discovery’ that Syria used chemical weapons might be a political ploy.” The phrase was in an article that described strong strategic and humanitarian reasons for involvement in the crisis, particularly the recent involvement of the Lebanese group Hezbollah on the side of Assad.

Read more here: http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2013/06/14/194016/chemical-weapons-experts-still.html?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter&utm_term=news#storylink=cpy

[B Calm]

3. The USA has a problem with gas,

but it's okay for Syria to kill their people with bullets, hmmm. . .

but at the same time it's okay for US companies to poison American people. .

[dawg]

52. Exactly.

The Kaiser had poison gas. It's not exactly a new thing.

[lamp_shade]

4. "the Obama administration has yet to offer details of what evidence it has" n/t

[Orsino]

9. Colin Powell has poisoned that well.

I'm not sure that the Obama Administration could offer any evidence I'd trust. Too many of the wrong sort of people are vested in extending our perpetual state of war, and too many of them are too close to our president.

[davidpdx]

39. Exactly

I don't think there would be as much skepticism if Bush and his buddies had lied about the WMD in Iraq. The US got burned on that one, so I understand.

The problem is now that there is a huge civil war in a country where crimes against humanity are occurring (even if the Sarin is not being used). How long do you wait to intervene? Bill Clinton waited quite awhile to intervene in the former republic of Yugoslavia. We have no national interest in Syria, however the Russians do. Turkey is turmoil as well and has been taking in refuges from Syria.

[xtraxritical]

116. We should follow Canada's lead, don't get involved.

[davidpdx]

123. Not getting involved has consequences as well

Let me give you an extreme example, World War II. Germany, Italy, and Japan took over dozens of countries in Europe, Asia, and Africa. The Germans were slaughtering Jewish people by the millions. Suppose after Pearl Harbor we said, "we are just going to sit here and only protect ourselves and let the world fend for itself".

[Jackpine Radical]

127. False equivalence.

[davidpdx]

147. You are entitiled to your opinion

Last edited Sun Jun 16, 2013, 06:40 AM - Edit history (1)

but not to be rude. You might want to go look at the TOS for the site. If you act like that you may not be here long.

Edit: Thank you to the six jury members for hiding the insults.

[go west young man]

145. We didn't get burned.

We did the burning. We always knew there were no weapons of mass destruction. We went to war under false pretenses. Cheney and the gang made the whole thing up. Chalabi and Curveball was BS and the US knew it.

[davidpdx]

146. I'm talking in terms of getting lied to

as well as getting stuck with the bill. Americans did in fact pay for the Iraq War in several different ways including monetarily and in terms of the perception of our country. I think you are making the wrong argument with the wrong person.

[russspeakeasy]

112. Yup !

[Marr]

113. I guess they haven't finished drawing it.

[Enthusiast]

119. They need some tubes!

[url=http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php][img][/img][/url]

[Laelth]

5. k&r for exposure.

Reminds me of the Kuwaiti PR prior to the opening of the 1st Gulf War. The Kuwaitis hired a big DC PR Firm to "handle" public opinion in the US. That firm generated the story about the Iraqi soldiers that threw babies out of incubators at a Kuwaiti hospital--a claim later proven to be absolutely untrue, a pure fabrication.

Of course, now it's legal for the Federal Government to lie directly to the people of the United States. The 3rd Party PR firm is no longer required to generate lies in support of neocon policy. As such, we have every reason to believe that our government is lying. After all, it's legal. Heard that defense recently? Official, government lying is now perfectly legal, and in some small minds, that makes it O.K.

-Laelth

[SamKnause]

6. Gas

Yes, they are lying.

You are right to demand proof.

I would like to know why one method of killing is preferable to another method of killing ?

The U.S. uses almost every method available to kill indiscriminately around the globe.

The U.S. is the worlds number one weapons manufacturer.

The U.S. is the worlds number one weapons exporter.

The U.S. is the only country to ever use nuclear weapons.

The U.S. would not sign the international treaty to rid the world of cluster bombs and landmines.

The U.S. has used its own soldiers as guinea in horrendous medical experiments and unknowing subjects in foreign countries.

The U.S. is a hypocrite on every important issue that affects the entire globe.

[tomp]

8. I like your orientation. It conforms with mine.

From this orientation, there is little in the world we cannot predict, or that would surprise us.

I would only specify that it is the government, not the people as a whole.

[SamKnause]

15. Gas 2

I agree.

The governments and the RULING elites of the world are the problem.

There are also a few religious leaders (Theocratic governments, if you will) around the globe that cause immense pain, suffering and promote war mongering.

The majority of people around the world want to live in peace, work at a decent job, feed their families and enjoy their time on this planet.

[tomp]

41. absolutely, really pretty simple.

organized religion (generally) has largely been a hindrance to progress/human rights, frequently outright violent offenders, and (generally) either collaborators or competitors with reactionary governments.

[Enthusiast]

120. The RULING elites are a greater threat than any "terrorism".

Besides, they probably initiate all the terrorism anyway.

[NoMoreWarNow]

35. yes.

which is why we will get involved, of course. Although of course we already have been doing shit there, no doubt.

[xchrom]

7. Du rec. Nt

[quaker bill]

10. Do you really want proof?

Or do you really want us just to not intervene?

It is a relevance of the question thing. If you accept that the regime's use of chem weapons justifies intervention, then proof is what you need and all you need to be good with it. I suspect that this is not the case.

But let's just say it is. Currently, if you believe the story, the regime has killed 94,000 with plain old bullets and bombs, and perhaps 150 or a little more with Sarin. Is it really the last 150 that make the difference? My guess is that this is not the case.

Chemical weapons are a line in the sand drawn at a poorly selected place. Sure Chem weapons are hideous. Bullets and bombs are not much better.

I think you would prefer we not intervene, pretty much regardless of circumstance, a position I have no problem with.

[cali]

12. I want us not to intervene, but damn straight I also want proof of claims that Assad forces

used sarin. so? Why are the two incompatible?

[quaker bill]

70. not incompatible more irrelevant.

if proof, in any amount will not be enough to persuade you, why seek it? Just let your nay be a nay. Proof becomes relevant when it might change your mind.

Seeking proof makes it relevant at some level. What would enough proof look like? Is there such a thing? An more importantly, how would having enough cause you to feel differently?

[Scootaloo]

92. Because if you're going to make a claim, you should back it up

Asserting that another nation has used nerve agents is a rather big claim and should carry a burden of big evidence. Especially after our nation used the exact same claim a decade ago to utterly rape another nation.

[quaker bill]

148. Apparently

Investigators have been to the scene of the battles in question, observed and collected samples from the corpses. Apparently the bodies show the post mortem signs of nerve agent use, flushed reddish faces and anoxic blue extremities, for instance. The body fluids apparently test positive for Sarin. Sarin is not a naturally occurring compound, and is fairly easy to reliably detect when present.

So, for the purposes of debate, lets say the evidence collected by the Brits and French on the ground is real and accurate. If so, are you satisfied, or did you need to be there in person to witness, see videotape, watch the aircraft being loaded from bottles labeled "sarin"... What more do you need? If you got whatever that is, would you then be OK with selling the rebels heavier weapons, which is all I think is being proposed at the moment.

Would you ever be good with intervention of any sort under any circumstances. If so, what and when?

[TomClash]

14. She's pretty much the last DU poster who would support intervention

So you're preaching to the converted.

[SamKnause]

19. Gas 3

............the regime has killed 94,000...........

Have the rebels caused any deaths, or killed anyone ?

The is a civil war.

Both sides are killing.

Do we have proof for which side used the gas ?

[dkf]

59. For me it's both.

And I want to know if this administration is telling the truth or not on something this significant. If not, that would be really scary.

[Comrade Grumpy]

87. The regime has NOT killed 94,000 people.

According to the rebel-friendly Syrian Observatory for Human Rights, 41,000 Alawites have been killed in the civil war. Those are Assad's people. Given their percentage of the Syrian population, they are being killed at a rate about three times that of the Sunnis.

http://gpolya.newsvine.com/_news/2013/05/20/18381226-wests-alawite-genocide-41000-alawites-among-94000-syrian-dead

[Scootaloo]

93. But if the "freedom fighters" kill them, that makes the victims deserving, right?

It's how we worked it in El Salvador!

[Dragonfli]

103. Also, any raped and murdered nuns the freedom fighters attack have it coming by the same logic

It is the evil doers against the freedom fighters and any evil done by freedom fighters is only done to stop evil.

Very simple really.

[delrem]

107. So the regime killed all 94,000? al Qaeda killed none? You sure about that?

[sorefeet]

11. Why would I trust America

[East Coast Pirate]

13. If Obama had wanted to support the rebels

he would have done it months ago. I don't see us putting troops on the ground or even creating a no fly zone. Manipulating the situation? That I can see. We're good at that.

[DCBob]

16. so Sarin is your "red line"?

[cali]

18. no, but I don't like the government lying us into military involvement. do you?

[DCBob]

20. so even if they could prove sarin use your still against getting involved?

[cali]

21. yes, I'm still against it. I don't believe it will accomplish the end to the killing

and suffering. If anything it will prolong it. I don't believe it's remotely possible to ensure that al-qaeda and others will not get their hands on weapons. I don't believe that is the rebels did "win", we wouldn't end up with a syria as bad or worse. I don't believe that an amped up proxy war between Iran and the U.S. is a positive development. I don't believe that a wider conflagration in the middle east is a good thing.

[DCBob]

25. so what does this mean? .. "I want fucking indisputable PROOF"

Whats the point.. you would be against it no matter what.

[cali]

27. the point is that extraordinary claims from the gov't that entail military action

demand proof. Yes, I'd still be against it, but the gov't lying about such a think is a serious fucking thing. DUH.

[DCBob]

31. nearly 100,000 killed so far in the Syria conflict..

at what point should we get involved? Do we wait for 1,000,000?

[cali]

45. hey bob, do you know how many have been killed in the DRC?

well over 5 million. we sure as shit haven't gotten involved in that. And btw, our involvement in Syria may well cause more deaths and prolong the conflict as well as expand it.

Care to comment?

[DCBob]

50. of course we pick and choose which conflicts to get involved in..

based on our national interest and potential for wider conflict that could get out of control. This one has that potential if we dont get involved.

[cali]

54. lol. you're the one that asked if we should just sit back and wait until a million are killed in

syria.

I love hypocrisy in the defense of the indefensible.

[DCBob]

61. I didnt say it was right to ignore millions being killed anywhere.

We should always try to do something. Seems you could care less.

[Comrade Grumpy]

88. Doing something should not entail throwing gasoline on the fire.

This is a cynical attempt to prop up the rebels, who are getting their asses handed to them, in a bid to force Assad to negotiate his own overthrow. The military aid Obama is talking about is not enough to change the balance of power there, but enough to ensure the civil war drags on and thousands more Syrians are killed.

Shame on Obama. He's allowed himself to be cowed into getting deeper into this mess, but only in a half-hearted way. It looks like a lose-lose for us, not to mention the Syrians.

I'll bet he has Susan Rice whispering in his ear. She never met a military intervention she didn't like.

[rhett o rick]

90. With our track record, I dont agree we should always try to do something.

IMO we only "help" people when we have an ulterior motive.

[Enthusiast]

121. Precisely.......nt

[treestar]

48. The point is to assert that Obama is lying us into a war

and is thus no better than Bush.

[DCBob]

51. yes, that point is crystal clear.

[cali]

58. bzzzt. gigantic fail, bobby.

please see post 57

[DCBob]

62. glad to hear that.. that's something you have going for you.

[cali]

57. no. that's not the point and I think Obama is a 1000x better than bush.

the point is that we deserve proof of claims made by the government particularly claims that entail military involvement.

[DCBob]

66. The problem is I doubt you would believe anything they provide as proof.

You will always have the argument we were lied to before with "proof".. eg Bush/Cheney, yellow cake, etc.

[treestar]

71. Bingo. Note post 40 nt

[cali]

22. I answer your questions, why don't you answer mine?

[DCBob]

23. Dumb question.. what kind of idiot would want to be lied into a war?

[cali]

24. lol. your questions are hardly brilliant.

and seems to me some people are fine with ignoring the government lying. perhaps you are one of them.

[DCBob]

26. perhaps.. just trying to clarify WTF you are saying.

Last edited Sat Jun 15, 2013, 10:03 AM - Edit history (1)

[TomClash]

17. Even if we play in the neocon ballpark . . .

Where is the national interest in aiding the Syrian rebels? To what end?

It is right to be skeptical of these sarin claims - even with "proof."

[Aerows]

30. We have no business getting involved over there

period. One side is just as bad as the other, and arming AQ by way of arming these rebels which ARE AQ seems like a recipe for disaster to me. We would do well to not introduce yet more weapons into the situation, but of course, we want the WOT to continue indefinitely.

I can't think of a better way of accomplishing that than arming known members of AQ against Hezbollah. In that contest a mouse could starve on the difference between who is worse.

[indianjoe3295]

32. It shouldn't be about politics,...

Must everything be about "National interest" ? What about because they are human beings ?

[davidpdx]

37. We don't have a direct national interest, but that maybe a good thing

In Iraq it was obvious as daylight it was oil. As a world community we should stop the slaughtering of people which is a crime against humanity. The main problem is the lack of cooperation on the part of Russia. Now they do have direct interests in Syria.

Bill Clinton was criticized in the 90's for waiting too long to intervene in the mess with what used to be Yugoslavia. Whether that criticism was warranted or not is up to history to decide. There was genocide and crimes against humanity there. People getting killed, raped, and executed.

Also there is unrest in Turkey as well which is a neighbor of Syria and has taken in refugees.

The situation isn't getting any better, so the question is how long do we sit back and let it continue.

[cali]

46. how long have we sat back and let the slaughter continue in the Congo?

and btw, it's a proxy war with Iran. We sure as shit have a purported national interest.

[choie]

67. Cali, you are one of my favorite posters...

I agree with you completely - it is a proxy war with Iran. One can just predict the scenario - we (the U.S.) will go in there, see "evidence" that Iran is helping Assad, and then, well -- what comes next? War with Iran, of course! Yay!!!!!!

[TomClash]

91. Yes but it's purported, not real nt

[bornskeptic]

28. If you think it's a lie, blame the British and the French. They started it.

The British and French governments have said that medical samples smuggled out of Syria have tested positive for the nerve agent sarin, and added that they have shown the evidence to a UN investigation.

The Foreign Office confirmed that body fluids collected from victims of one or more attacks in the country were found to contain a chemical fingerprint of sarin at the Ministry of Defence's Porton Down facility in Wiltshire. In Paris, the French foreign minister, Laurent Fabius, said he had passed similar evidence to the head of the UN inquiry into chemical weapon use in Syria, Ake Sellström.

"On France's behalf, I handed him the results of the analyses carried out by our laboratory, chosen by the Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons to identify military toxins," Fabius said. "These analyses demonstrate the presence of sarin gas in the samples in our possession. In view of this evidence, France is now certain that sarin gas has been used in Syria several times and in a localised manner. "We decided to inform the relevant UN mission of the evidence in our possession, immediately and publicly. It would be intolerable for those guilty of these crimes to enjoy impunity."

(snip)

Le Monde reported that the samples tested included urine brought back by Le Monde journalists from Jobar on the outskirts of Damascus between 12 and 14 May. Other samples included blood taken after a Syrian government helicopter attack in Saraqeb, south of Homs on 29 April.

Appearing on French TV news, Fabius said France had no doubt that the gas was used and that in the second case, there was no doubt it was used by the regime and its accomplices as there was evidence all the way along the chain

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/04/syria-nerve-agent-sarin-uk-france

[cali]

40. Yes, I'm aware of the French and British claims, but so what?

The U.S. is the one getting involved based on sarin use claims and it's verifying said claims with no evidence.

[treestar]

49. That looks like actual evidence

Though of course some are going to deem it all "lies." Now watch them find a way to lay it at US feet.

[Comrade Grumpy]

89. Well, yes, I do blame them. The old colonial masters are itching to reimpose their will.

I saw Zbiggy Brezinski on PBS last night calling them the most hated European powers in the region. He was highly critical of Obama's move.

We've gone way down the rabbit hole when the Zbig-man, the guy who brought us the Afghan war against the Russians, emerges as the voice of reason and moderation.

[Number23]

122. Exactly. It was the French that first made the assertion that Assad was gassing his people

I am shocked at the people who are against intervening to help the people of Syria because we're not helping people in other parts of the world. For the US military with all of its useless might, this is the LEAST we should be doing.

[Ilsa]

29. I think it's a lie, too.

But even if it's the truth, I don't think we should be involved in this.

Syria clearly has Russia intervening on its behalf. Do we want another mess with Russia? What do we have to gain by doing that?

Other nations in Africa have been undergoing civil war strife, with hundreds of thousands, possibly millions, murdered brutally. We haven't intervened there, nor should we.

Fuck McCain and Clinton and the Neocon agenda.

[DCBob]

33. so its a lie just because there are no videos or cell phone photos?

[cali]

34. they have provided NO EVIDENCE. Now you want to swallow it whole, feel free

some of us have a higher standard.

you don't. fine.

[DCBob]

36. not swallowing anything.. just trying to clarify what the fuss is all about.

[cali]

38. I think the piece I posted and those quoted, articulate what the fuss is all about.

[treestar]

55. The French found evidence in bodily fluid of victims

[mimi85]

128. The sight of Richard Engel

in that giant ass gas mask was pretty scary. Maybe he's just wearing it for fun.

[reusrename]

42. Sounds like a bunch of yellow cake to me.

I suspect we will be arming both sides of this conflict.

[sellitman]

43. Arabs have been killing Arabs for thousands of years

Nothing has ever changed that dynamic.

When will we ever learn?

[delrem]

108. Europeans have been killing Europeans for thousands of years

Nothing has ever changed that dynamic
When will ever learn?

[Uben]

44. Why lie?

Why would the Obama admin lie about the use of Sarin gas? It has been very apparent they DO NOT want to engage in Syria. They set up a "red line" in hopes Assad would not use it, and when it looks like he did, they are only sending small arms. Not exactly a declaration of war there, Cali. I believe the O admin does not want to engage in another war. I think it's the last thing they want to do.
I'm not saying there are not those in government who want a conflict in Syria, but I do not believe the Obama admin wants any part of it. As leader of the U.S., he can't sit by while Assad hurls deadly gas at the rebels. They were warned. HE took minimal action when it was "supposedly" (for sake of your argument) used. That tells me the whole thing is more of a pain in the ass than a covert action.
Sorry, can't buy your OP....doesn't make logical sense.

[CrispyQ]

47. There is always money to pay for war, but no money to take care of citizens.

[Octafish]

56. Only ones caught with Sarin gas in Syria were al Qaeda affiliated rebels.

So, just because someone found evidence, doesn't mean Assad used it.

[kentuck]

60. WMD's! WMD's!

Have I heard that before? President Obama is not calling the shots. The NSA and the CIA are calling the shots. But he is the President, you say...

[Sunlei]

63. I don't believe either.think those missiles fired in broke containers of city supplies & harmed people

I don't want the gun sales contractors to hand out small arms. What will that do against helicopters and tanks firing missiles on their own citizens?

We need to take out those heles, tanks AND set-up evac camps in a neighboring country so the oppressed-missile bombed people can have a place to flee to. Get rid of Assad-he won't stop raining ruin on his own cities and people.

give them back some kind of internet right away.

[Ford_Prefect]

64. PNAC, AIPAC, MIC, CIA, NSA: Five sources that have ZERO credibility on this, and dangerous agendas.

We have absolutely ZERO interest in getting into a shooting war over Syria. Our military involvement will only spread this walking disaster area further. It will most likely rekindle the cold war with Russia and may well mean a land war with Iran.

It is true that 94,000 or more have died in a horrible civil war fought between roughly 20% of the Syrian people while the rest are trying desperately to get out of the way of the bombs, bullets and bullies. How is militarizing the remaining population helping that equation?

Although Assad is a notorious tyrant that does not automatically make his opposition democratic humanitarians.

How are we to afford a war which will no doubt extend beyond the present territory and likely may continue for 5 years or longer?

This is not Kuwait, or even Libya. This is Kosovo, Sarajevo, Lebanon, and Cambodia where many groups make up both sides and outside interests steering the conflict have additional, individual, and not necessarily complementary agendas (not to mention weapons to sell to any faction).

The Tale is wagging the Dog again. Once more Neo-Cons here and in Israel have written the script for US intervention and baited the trap with faked WMD evidence.

There yet remain other methods to influence this situation without firing more depleted Uranium.

[DirkGently]

65. Mccain ought to go fight Assad himself, if he's

so gung-ho.

What is his deal with getting the U.S. entangled in wars in the ME?

Still trying to prove Vietnam could have "worked?"

[MjolnirTime]

68. You wouldn't know what to do with indisputable proof. You're not a chemist.

At the end of the day, you'll have to take someone's word for it.

Or you could just flail about like a maniac....gnashing your teeth and pulling your hair.

[Ford_Prefect]

69. The last time we did that it turned out to be a grandly staged exercise in deceit.

Genuine experts have expressed substantial doubts over the "evidence" or lack of it.

Presently it neither looks like a duck nor walks like one. Some people are insisting they believe they heard a duck yet no actual feathers have been seen by reliable sources.

[snappyturtle]

101. I'd just like to know if they got a chemist's report at all.

Frankly, I agree with Thom Hartman....we need to stay out of the civil war in Syria.

[chknltl]

132. +1 . I agree with Thom Hartmann too. USA stay away

If the citizens of Syria want democracy or whatever then it is up to the citizenry to go out and get it. It is in our best interest to let Syria figure out what Syria wants.

[snappyturtle]

134. I agree with Hartman in that he says we can go into Syria but in doing so if the

opposition wins and it isn't on solid ground in building a gov't in the aftermath all we have done is create chaos. I'm sure we can each think of a couple of instances of this exact scenario coming into fruition.

[neverforget]

105. I'm against intervention, but if we do it, I prefer proof to lies.

But that's just me. I don't like being lied too.

[dkf]

72. Russia, of all things, is calling us out on this.

RUSSIA QUESTIONS SYRIAN CHEMICAL WEAPONS EVIDENCE

MOSCOW (AP) — Russia's foreign minister said Saturday that the evidence put forth by the United States of chemical weapons use in Syria apparently doesn't meet stringent criteria for reliability.

The Obama administration said this week that it will give lethal aid to Syrian rebels in light of evidence that President Bashar Assad's forces used chemical weapons in the country's civil war.

In Moscow, Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov said the material does not include guarantees that it meets the requirements of the Organization for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons. He said the organization specifies that samples taken from blood, urine and clothing can be considered reliable evidence only if supervised by organization experts from the time they are taken up to delivery to a laboratory.

The OPCW is the autonomous body for implementing the international Chemical Weapons Convention that went into effect in 1997. Its website says Syria is one of six countries that have not signed or acceded to the convention.

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/russia-questions-syrian-chemical-weapons-evidence

[darkangel218]

73. Fuck another war

[Fearless]

75. Even were it true...

It's not our job to police the world. Let the UN handle it.

[ohheckyeah]

77. Maybe they are just doing an investigation.

The EPA announced this month that it was launching a two-year investigation, partially funded by the American Chemical Council, of how 60 children in Duval County, Fla., absorb pesticides and other household chemicals. The chemical industry funding initially prompted some environmentalists to question whether the study would be biased, and some rank-and-file agency scientists are now questioning whether the plan will exploit financially strapped families.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A10728-2004Oct29.html

[leftstreet]

79. Sarin sounds so much cooler than Yellowcake n/t

DURec

[ProSense]

82. "And no, sorry, I don't automatically believe President Obama."

"And no, sorry, I don't automatically believe President Obama. I want fucking indisputable PROOF of claims that supposedly justify military intervention. "

What happens if you don't get it? Also, why would anyone believe that you would believe "indisputable PROOF"?

The President likely believes he has "indisputable" proof. Are you suggesting that he is manufacturing the proof? Or are you suggesting that he's gullible to believe the evidence presented to him?

What if they are telling the truth?

This is likely true, and I see no reason why the President should lie about this. When Hillary Clinton supported arming the rebels, the President could have simply run with that.

I disapproved of it when she suggested it, and I still believe the U.S. should stay the hell out of Syria. No more wars.

You are screaming about the President lying, with no evidence to support your claim.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

83. Whew. For a minute, I thought that the top line was yours. Then I saw the quote marks.

This is reassuring. The world has not turned upside down. Pigs are not flying. Everything is predictible again.

[mike_c]

84. so, what if they are telling the truth?

As noted up thread, 96,000 Syrians have been killed by bombs, bullets, and torture. Maybe 150 by sarin, if the administration is telling the truth. What is so special about those 150 that justify U.S. intervention while 96,000 other bodies didn't?

Full disclosure: I don't believe the administration and even if I did I'd oppose yet more military entanglement in the affairs of other people. But even if they're telling the truth the arbitrary nature of their "line in the sand" suggests ulterior motives that I do not trust.

[ProSense]

86. Well,

"As noted up thread, 96,000 Syrians have been killed by bombs, bullets, and torture. Maybe 150 by sarin, if the administration is telling the truth. What is so special about those 150 that justify U.S. intervention while 96,000 other bodies didn't?"

...that's a good question. Again, I don't think the President has any reason to lie. It's not like this reason resonates with Americans. The nearly 100,000 people killed is a better argument, and while I wish there was something that could be done to stop the killing, I don't want war.

[whatchamacallit]

85. Same bullshit play from the war machine

same Pavlovian response from slack jawed Americans. War, it seems, is unavoidable.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

94. Whether lying or not, it's still a dumbass idea to get involved in another civil war.

Not that I don't think they're lying as usual.

[TakeALeftTurn]

95. Assad is WINNING

He has been warned in no uncertain terms that the international community would come down on him like a ton of bricks, if he used chemical weapons.

He is not stupid.

This reeks of WMD's and Iraq.

If there have been chemical weapons used in Syria (and we have NO reliable evidence that they have) it is FAR more likely they were used by the Islamic Extremist rebels who are LOSING and have been told in no uncertain terms that they will be armed if they can manufacture a chemical attack.

N.B. The Islamists might of got hold of chemical weapons from a captured Assad arms dump a while ago.

We also can't rule out the possibility that the CIA might manufacture a chemical weapon attack on rebel held territory.

[GoneFishin]

114. Bingo. The best proof that he did not use it. Anybody here in his shoes would not bring a

shit storm from the U.S. on top of themselves by using the one, single, and only weapon that would draw the U.S. into the war.

That, combined with the lack of evidence tells me that it is bullshit.

[AverageJoe90]

139. The problem is, this isn't Iraq.

Hussein was a fucking asshole but he wasn't insane(and we actually did NOT have a valid reason to be concerned about Iraq at the time. Bush really did lie.).....but Al-Assad? It's a whole different can of beans here, and frankly, he's a lot more like Kim Jong-Un than some here would like to admit.

And, btw, just be glad Syria doesn't have nukes, in contrast to NK. Because if they did, Al-Assad would certainly be pointing one at us if he could, just like Kim.

[GoneFishin]

153. I have not got my bearings yet on this conflict, so I am not predisposed one way or another.

But I have heard this sarin claim several times, and at least once a team on the ground debunked it. That combined with an understanding that some elements in this country and overseas are anxious for us to be drawn into the fray, makes me cautious about the possibility that we are being screwed over again with deliberately faulty intelligence.

[AverageJoe90]

154. There may indeed be fishy dealings on both sides of the aisle....that I don't doubt.

But I think Obama's a LOT more honest than Dubya ever coulda been.....unfortunately, there are some intel factions that are drawing us in, not because they dislike al-Assad(and frankly, these guys probably don't, TBH), but because they want to secure more power for their Islamist buddies.....

[GoneFishin]

156. I don't see it myself. But in any case I am not going to be sucked in by rumors.

[DirkGently]

97. Gulf of Tonkin, or the sinking of the Maine, anyone?

This isn't a new thing. McCain's determination to continue to go to new wars in the ME is particularly disturbing.

[Catherina]

99. Thank you Cali! Thank you! "Britain Prepared for War in Syria 2 Years Before Crisis Flared Up"

Cali. I love you.

Unfortunately the video is in French but the text basically covers it.

Britain Prepared for War in Syria 2 Years Before Crisis Flared Up, France’s Former FM Roland Dumas Says

06/13/2013

Former French Foreign Minister Roland Dumas said that Britain had been preparing gunmen to invade Syria two years before the crisis there flared up in 2011.

During a TV show, Dumas said ”I was in Britain two years ago, and I met British officials, some my friends…they admitted that they were up to something in Syria.”

”They even asked me to join them in my capacity as a foreign minister, but I declined,” he added.

He indicated that the plan of striking Syria had been prepared in advance long before the 2011 events, adding that the goal was to overthrow the Syrian government that considers Israel an enemy.

The TV show was dedicated to discussing the war in Syria.

http://leaksource.wordpress.com/2013/06/14/britain-prepared-for-war-in-syria-2-years-before-crisis-flared-up-frances-former-fm-roland-dumas-says/

US claims on Syria ‘unconvincing’, says Russia

...

“I wouldn’t like to draw parallels with the notorious (anthrax) vial demonstrated by Secretary of State Colin Powell, but the facts given to us are unconvincing,” Yuri Ushakov told reporters on Friday.

“It would be hard even to call them facts,” Mr Ushakov said referring to the information provided to Russia by the U.S. “What was presented to us by the Americans does not look convincing.”

...

A senior Russian lawmaker accused the U.S. of spreading lies about chemical weapons in Syria.

“Information about the use by [President Bashar] Assad of chemical weapons has been fabricated in the same place as the lies about Saddam Hussein's weapons of mass destruction,” said Alexei Pushkov, head of the foreign affairs in the State Duma, the lower house of the Russian Parliament. “Obama is taking the same path as George Bush.”

...

http://www.thehindu.com/news/international/us-claims-on-syria-unconvincing-says-russia/article4814682.ece

President Obama, STOP before it's too late!! Stop NOW!

[TakeALeftTurn]

100. I am reminded of this :-

Masters of War - Bob Dylan

[ucrdem]

104. See what they got away with while you were distracted?

And they always come up with the best distractions.

[DirkGently]

106. "Naturally the common people don't want war.

Neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, IT IS THE LEADERS of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is TELL THEM THEY ARE BEING ATTACKED, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. IT WORKS THE SAME IN ANY COUNTRY."

--Goering at the Nuremberg Trials

[GoneFishin]

115. This works for spying on your own citizens too.

[DirkGently]

117. Just thinking that.

[killbotfactory]

109. yeah, it's bullshit.

The chemical weapons were allegedly used on such a small scale that nobody is sure they were used or not? Sounds like bullshit.

Certainly no worse than some of the conventional weapons we've been using in Iraq and Afghanistan.

The whole point of preventing chemical weapons is because they can cause mass death and suffering, which is why they are considered WMDs.

[Enthusiast]

118. I figured they were lying when their lips were moving.

[url=http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php][img][/img][/url]

[SammyWinstonJack]

135. heh.

[Cali_Democrat]

124. This post is pointless

You say you want proof, but even if solid proof was given, you'd still be opposed to intervention.

You're just trying to draw attention to the fact that you don't trust Obama.

Big deal. We already knew that.

[ozone_man]

142. We don't have a good track record with telling the truth

before wars, whether it is Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan.. This smells a lot like yellow cake uranium in Iraq, or Colin Powell showing us photos of where the WMDs were.

Where is the evidence? This is even shoddier than in 2003 with Bush, and it's Obama this time.

[fascisthunter]

125. Coockoo heads

making shit up to do what they want. If what they wanted was so for the best interests of the people of this country and others, they wouldn't need to lie.

[MotherPetrie]

126. K&R. Lips moving?

Lying.

[blkmusclmachine]

129. TRUST US.

We wouldn't lie to you

again.

[DeSwiss]

130. K&R

[DRoseDARs]

131. But... it was the French and British that were claiming it weeks ago.

Are you accusing them as well, or only because the US is now agreeing with them? I try to stay out of this mess because it's going to be ugly no matter what we do or don't, but is it fair that you're tarring-and-feathering Pres. Obama even though he's a Johnny-come-lately to the Syria-used-chemical-weapons party?

I'm not an Obamabot by any stretch of the imagination, but if Assad did in fact use wmds (in this case chemical weapons) he and his regime need to be ended by whatever means are necessary.

[Lugal Zaggesi]

141. What if

the "rebels" used wmds (in this case chemical weapons) because they wanted to give The Wests hawks a fake casus belli to get the USA involved in funding and supplying them (more than already) ?

Would you agree that the rebels and their "cause" need to be ended by whatever means are necessary ?

Or are you a hypocrite ?

[DRoseDARs]

143. Your attempt at a gotcha post there is too cute by half, but you need to think deeper than the skin.

If the rebels had somehow managed to secure chemical weapons then you're damn well right we'd need to go in. The rebels aren't a single mass but independent groups all picking at the Assad regime, each with their own cause. Some of these groups are genuinely fighting to free the Syrians from Assad's rule. Other groups are fighting in order to bring their even worse fundamentalist Islamic rule to the people.

For any of these groups to have gotten their hands on chemical weapons shows one of two things: Either Assad's forces have lost control of their stockpiles and the current ownership is unknown, or the weapons were procured by outside means either through blackmarket purchasing or a 3rd party supplied them, leaving both ownership AND supplier unknown. In the scenario you built, it would be more likely that the fundamentalists had utilized the weapons (regardless of HOW they got them) to curry favor and get weapons. That would mean we would have to step in and stop them, plus either secure the rest of the weapons because they'd turn right back around and share their weapons with some other fundamentalist group or go after whomever supplied them the perennial movie plot had finally come true: Someone out there is frickin' selling WMDs to terrorists. In either case, doing nothing is not an option. Those weapons, in the hands of non-state actors, WILL be used in a future attempted terrorist attack.

We cannot allow WMDs to be used by any group in this conflict. We can't let Assad use them on his people, we can't allow the weapons to fall into unknown rebel hands as they'd likely end up on the blackmarket. Pres. Obama had stated publicly before that the locations of Assad's weapons would be physically secured if it looked like they'd fall into uncertain custody. The risks of them being controlled by unknown forces are too high.

As I said, this is a mess regardless of what we do or don't. But if WMDs have been used, regardless by whom, to do nothing is dangerous. If they have been used by rebels and we do nothing, those weapons will come back someday to haunt the West and scores will die as a result.

[cheapdate]

149. I'm not convinced that the isolated use of sarin gas

by the Syrian state is a sufficient reason to justify an escalation of US military involvement in the conflict -- although you do make a compelling argument for action if rebels groups are found to be acquiring and using the gas.

Sarin gas is classified as a weapon of mass destruction by the UN and is outlawed under an international treaty agreement -- to which Syria is a signatory. The response to the possible use of sarin gas by the Syrian state should properly be formulated by the member states of the Chemical Weapons Convention. I understand the Russians have a different perspective and loyalties in the conflict, but I don't think that they have any more desire than us to tolerate the use of sarin gas.

The US should continue its course of pursuing diplomatic solutions while avoiding inserting more weapons into the conflict. Any weapons we insert into the conflict will be impossible to control. Fighters from other countries are pouring into Syria from all sides, while civilian refugees are pouring out of the country. The conflict has become a sectarian-religious-political civil war on a large scale. Reports say that the most effective opposition fighting groups are various, Sunni coalitions with wartime experience and strong anti-American feelings.

The dangers of adding more weaponry into the conflict remain exactly the same as they were before the allegations of the use of sarin gas.

[DRoseDARs]

150. And that post right there is how these debates SHOULD go.

Thank you for not screaming back like a toddler as so many others are doing.

[Lugal Zaggesi]

155. Of course the rebels have access to Sarin

Our NATO ally Turkey has already reported as much, as has the UN:

http://rt.com/news/sarin-gas-turkey-al-nusra-021/

Turkish security forces found a 2kg cylinder with sarin gas after searching the homes of Syrian militants from the Al-Qaeda linked Al-Nusra Front who were previously detained, Turkish media reports. The gas was reportedly going to be used in a bomb.

The sarin gas was found in the homes of suspected Syrian Islamists detained in the southern provinces of Adana and Mersia following a search by Turkish police on Wednesday, reports say.

You're just getting overly alarmed with the "chemical weapons" label.
As I said, the rebels know that Americans will easily be alarmed with the "chemical weapons attacks" stories that they can concoct with the help of willing hawks like McCain and Graham.

Someone out there is frickin' selling WMDs to terrorists. In either case, doing nothing is not an option.
Were you so alarmed after the Tokyo sarin attack ? Some doctor made it in his basement.

http://english.ruvr.ru/news/2013_05_31/Moscow-expects-Turkey-s-explanations-for-Syrian-rebels-sarin-Lavrov-4286/

http://www.globalresearch.ca/turkish-police-find-chemical-weapons-in-the-possession-of-al-nusra-terrorists-heading-for-syria/5336917

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/uns-carla-del-ponte-says-there-is-evidence-rebels-may-have-used-sarin-in-syria-8604920.html
Carla Del Ponte, a member of the UN Independent Commission of Inquiry on Syria, said that testimony gathered from casualties and medical staff indicated that the nerve agent sarin was used by rebel fighters.

Producing sarin is not like producing fusion bombs - that's why chemical weapons are called "the poor man's WMD's".

http://www.fas.org/programs/ssp/bio/factsheets/sarinfactsheet.html
Production: Sarin is made by mixing several commercially available chemicals in the right amounts and in the right sequence. It is debatable how easy it is for the layperson to synthesize sarin. It is somewhat complicated and dangerous to produce.

Germany made it back in the 1930's ! Primitive chemistry.
And who really cares if crazy people kill 50 victims with a gas or with bullets.

[Harmony Blue]

133. This is what a sarin attack looks like

Put up or shut up (evidence) time United States.

[polly7]

137. Who exactly has crossed that red line and I agree .... where is the proof?

It doesn't seem like they were eager for the UN investigation earlier.

From an article the beginning of May:

In the real world it appears that the U.S.-backed Syrian rebels are the ones responsible for having used chemical weapons against the Syrian government. It was the Syrian government who initially accused the U.S.-backed rebels of using chemical weapons, and asked the UN to investigate the attack. This triggered the Syrian rebels and later the Obama administration to accuse the Syrian government of the attack.

A very revealing New York Times article quoted U.S.-backed Syrian rebels admitting that the chemical weapons attack took place in a Syrian government controlled territory and that 16 Syrian government soldiers died as a result of the attack, along with 10 civilians plus a hundred more injured. But the rebels later made the absurd claim that the Syrian government accidentally bombed its own military with the chemical weapons.

Interestingly, the Russian government later accused the United States of trying to stall the UN investigation requested by the Syrian government, by insisting that the parameters of the investigation be expanded to such a degree that a never-ending discussion over jurisdiction and rules would eventually abort the investigation

Thus, yet another secular Middle Eastern government — after Iraq and Libya — is being pushed into the abyss of Islamist extremism, and the shoving is being done by the United States, which The New York Times discovered was funneling thousands of tons of weapons into Syria through U.S. allies in the region, Saudi Arabia and Qatar. We now know that these weapons were given to the Islamist extremists; directly or indirectly, it doesn't matter.

http://www.zcommunications.org/obama-and-u-s-military-divided-over-syria-by-shamus-cooke

[cheapdate]

140. Marco Werman interviewed a chemical weapons "expert"

on his radio show The World and questioned him about the claims that sarin was used in Syria. The "expert" talked confidently about the evidence. Werman questioned him pretty well, and asked for specific details about the sample collection and the testing. To a careful listener, the "expert" seemed to be filling in some details with bullshit.

[awoke_in_2003]

144. "WAR... what is it good for?"...

Making the rich richer.

[bowens43]

151. It's probably a lie but even if it isn't

have we not learned anything a s a nation? Do we really need to get involved in a another war in the middle east?

It's none of our fucking business there and we have no reason to be there.

[rdharma]

152. Fool me once........