The growing U.S. involvement in Syria proves this:

[Ken Burch]

We can't let the so-called "liberal hawks" get the ear of any future Democratic presidents.

If you're a hawk on foreign policy, you aren't a liberal anymore-the money needed to fund the killing you demand makes it impossible for anything liberal to be done in this country, and in the rest of the world, American militarism can no longer produce "liberal" or even humane outcomes. We freed no one in Korea, no one in Vietnam, no one in Nicaragua, no one in Grenada, no one in Iraq and no one in Afghanistan. All that was left after each of those interventions was grief and poverty.

From here on in, we should only fight wars for our own territorial defense...nothing else, in this day and age, is worth the life on any more Americans or the lives of any civilians in any other countries that we choose to "intervene" in.

And the "National interests" our leaders say we are fighting for are simply the interests of the wealthy.

If any of our parents, spouses, children or grandchildren die in any future war, their lives will have been taken for nothing.

The rigid and lethal foreign policy ideas of Harry Truman, Lyndon Johnson and Scoop Jackson have no place in the Party of the People. Let's be a party that tries working WITH the world for once, rather than beating it back with a stick.

[cali]

1. good luck with that.

this country couldn't break out of its war stance if Gandhi was President.

The business of America may be business, but it's the business of war and domination. and for all those that think I'm being dramatic: bullshit. Just take a dispassionate look at a few elements, like the number of military bases we have all over the globe, and our most "profitable" businesses.

[Laelth]

8. Speaking of military bases ...

What does this image say, exactly? It appears we have Iran nearly surrounded. This map shows that we have been working on "isolating" Iran for some time.

Truly haunting.

-Laelth

[graham4anything]

2. LBJ was the 2nd greatest President of all time after Lincoln. FDR should have entered WW2 early

there is NOT one major democratic person who is a pacifist, nor were they ever

(btw, to the Elizabeth Warren fans(and I myself am, just I want Sen.Warren to lead the senate for 24 years), said herself
that NOTHING is off the table in Iran.

And Washington would himself have been considered a no-go as would EVERY OTHER PAST PRESIDENT except maybe
Jimmy Carter.

So -1 to the OP idea.

and I for one won't stand with Rand(who would already have bombed Iran, as would his father who voted FOR Afghanastan, though
his supporters of course, forget the inconvienient truth).


btw, the only thing in retrospect that the protests of 1968 did, was that the war did not end to 1968.
Ironic in that what happened was the opposite of the intent.
Had LBJ not been driven from the race(because LBJ had a heart and cared), the war ended 1968.
The direct happening was that Nixon won, the war remained til what, 1974.

I know, let's fracture the democratic party and elect Jeb Bush.(satire).
Yeah, that's the ticket as Tommy Flannagan once said.

[cali]

3. yay. sis boom bah. endless fucking war and all that

we deserve more blowback than we've gotten. we're fucking lucky with all the vile shit we've done internationally that we the blowback hasn't been MUCH worse than 9/11. No the people don't deserve it, but our government has been doing horrendous shit for decades.

YOU and people like you are part of the problem. a big part.

[graham4anything]

4. Name a specific MAJOR can win person who would fit your description.

not some fringe person who wouldn't win one electoral vote

Name ONE who would tell the world NO involvement in anything during their term.

(btw, this is democratic underground, so it has to be a DEMOCRATIC party registrant as of this moment.)

(and don't say Jill who in the world is Stein).

remember- the person must be able to win 270 electoral votes and not be a cause person who has no chance.

remember-the other party won't be doing this, and electing Jeb Bush/Rand Paul ticket well, that won't cut
the mustard.


this is also for the OP

[cali]

7. we're talking across a gulf so wide, we might as well be in different universes.

you dwell in one reality. I, in another.

really, it's pointless for us to even attempt anything beyond "hello".

[graham4anything]

9. Ah, so there isn't any I guess. Republicans win in 2016 to prove a point?(like 1968 and 1980, 52,56.

Remember, one cannot in any shape or form idolize Eisenhower(though some do),he was the single biggest
war monger of all time, bar none).

So, I guess the OP demand, is to lose in 2016.
Yeah, that's a great plank to run on, like the one Captain Hook would want the democratic party to walk off of straight into
the gators mouth.

[cali]

11. you really don't get what I'm saying. I'm not thinking in terms of political parties.

start with that. if you can.

[graham4anything]

14. I live in THIS world. Not in a movie world. I live where 270 votes are needed.

and in a world where in 1952, 1956, 1968,1972,1980,1984,1988, 2000,2004 the ennui that either led people to stay home
or to vote with the opposition led DIRECTLY 100% to the republican being elected in all the above except(the republican seated in 2000).

There are not some "oh let's 100% change the world at a snap of the fingers" abilities anywhere.

Protest=other side wins.

Harp all you want, but there is NO 2016 magical everything instantly changes.

Barack Obama IS the 2nd term winnable Jimmy Carter, who was not elected because for some reason or other
even people I myself support (like Elizabeth Warren who I support vigorously to remain senator for 24 years) Sen.Warren voted
for Ronald Reagan but now realizes I would assume, what a major mistake that was.

People have to put wedge issues aside and come to the table knowing 270 is what is needed.


One is not going to find peace in any candidate that is not the democratic one,
and there is NO ONE in the OP that would fit the description that would win any states whatsoever.

If there is, please specifically name the person. but that person does NOT exist.
Wishing and hoping (like Dusty Springfield sang) won't make it happen.

And really, take all things off the table when one doesn't know what is going to be served? Ah, no thanks.

FDR should have entered the war years early, however, the public didn't have the appetite then so he didn't.
But didn't don't mean shouldn't.

Mantras are nice, I use them myself.
But let's get real here.

[cali]

15. you live in a world that's defined and measured by republican/democrat electoral politics.

my world is a tad more expansive than that.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

19. If there is one thing history shows,...it's that America is fickle,...

....but it HATES to vote for crazy people....

[cali]

23. you're a caricature right out of central casting and that's it. nothing more. nothing less.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

17. I love how you assume this country will not elect someone who wants peace....

Despite the fact that this country is sick of war.

BTW: NO President has won that talks about going to war. They have ALL talked about peace,...even DURING war. FDR talked about post war peace plans during WWII. Nixon won by LYING about peace plans. Even Bush talked about living in peace with the Middle East so the notion of someone RUNNING on bringing peace being an absolute LOSER is,...oh wait,...Obama ran that campaign. McCain was the guy talking about bombing Iran. Tell us all again how it would be a disaster for the party to wimp out and talk about peace.

[graham4anything]

20. That was NOT the question in the OP. Hillary WANTS peace. Wishing & hoping though ...

but this is reality world, and because someone WANTS peace, doesn't mean it happens as we do NOT control the other
countries good or bad people.

BTW- Korea today in a Sunday article, now wants to come to the table and lay their rhetoric behind.
And in a suprirse, Iran voted in a somewhat moderate yesterday

It would of course be easier if terrorism had borders like in the days past.
But it doesn't.

And instigators out there (ala the Bush family who never wanted the cold war to end in the first place) rile things up and
it leads to other things. And Jeb is coming in 2016, so one has to deal with a family that for whatever reason, is indeed
popular with some in this country.

and there has NEVER been a period in the world that was at total peace, and I don't believe it will ever happen.
So one does their best.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

24. Does it even sink in with you that we have been at war alone?

[graham4anything]

26. Ah, no, but, we also are war for the soul of the USA vs. the republican party

and there is clearly only way to win the war with the republican/tea/libertarian party.

And sorry, but there are bad people out there, and yes, there are bad people in the USA too, but that would include
all of the Bush family who believes in that (if there are members of their family that don't, I haven't seen any).

And being that there never actually has been a race of two total opposite philosophies (like had Jeb run vs. Obama),
we are going to all be able to vote on it in 2016.

but to allow the Jeb side to win accomplishes 50 more years of it.

To totally repudiate their family in 2016 in the electoral vote is the only way one is going to do it, and in the process,
also get the tea party part of their party out of things, so all the other issues can move quickly forward that are now
obstructed
(like bridges, roads, tunnels, trains, etc.)

Keep in mind, Chris Christie won't get you that either after he single handedly said NO to a new tunnel that was 100% paid for
already that would have provided tens of thousands of jobs and much needed income.

BTW, if say in 2023, we are living in peace and harmony thanks to Hillary45 and the people she brings in, will everyone applaud that fact and say how good things are in the world?

but first one has to get to the point where it is possible, and until Jeb and the family are 100% forever repudiated AT THE POLLS,
it won't happen.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

32. IOW: Play their game only better?

[Ken Burch]

49. We can't win the war for the soul of the U.S. by being just as pro-war as the Right.

If the last four years have taught us anything, it's that wars don't have liberal outcomes.

Oh, and the Iranian people elected the more moderate candidate because THEY wanted to....it wasn't the U.S. threats that made that happen.

[Heather MC]

28. During the 2008 campaign Obama often said the fight

Needed to be in Afghanistan not Iraq. He didn't speak of peace, but rather reshifting our focus from one country to next.
Unfortunately, people hear what they want to here and many got angry when he sent more troops into Afghanistan.

He was less hawkish than McLame. But he wasn't all rainbows and unicorns either.

Also Raytheon just won a $105 million missile contract. Trust me they plan to drop that baby on someone during the next administration

Personally I stand with John Lennon "give peace a chance

Everyone thinks it's so wonderful that gays are allowed in the military and women can now serve in active duty combat. But I see it for what it is plans for more future wars. And there just aren't enough straight poor men to add to the front lines anymore. We plan for war, I wish we would start planning for peace. But there is no money in peace.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

30. Obama had the longest timeframe to get out of Iraq....

Kucinich had the shortest. He was going to start withdrawing troops immediately.

But then, he wanted to impeach Bush and Cheney too for lying us into a war so he was considered to be a nut.

Right?

[John2]

33. I'll make this rebuttal to

you and Mr Graham on here. Barrack Obama was a nobody, until he got important people to support him and went out to the people asking for their votes. The Establishment favorite was Hillary Clinton. I clearly remembered Clinton making an insinuation a Black man couldn't win the Presidency.

A lot of the old establishment including within the Black community didn't believe Obama could win so they went with Clinton. Obama got the support of an important Liberal Democrat named Kennedy and Caroline Kennedy. He also got important groups from the Left to support him against Hillary Clinton. You know what they attacked Clinton and several other Democratic candidates with the most. It was Clinton's vote on the Iraq War and her being part of the Washington establishment. What really made her husband mad, they hit her with making the racist remark, a Black person couldn't win.

The suggestion that people are powerless in this country is further from the Truth with Obama's own election. Just as much as there were Republicans didn't believe Obama could win, there were some Democrats too. Don't compare the War in Afghanistan to Iraq, because we were attacked by the people that built terrorist camps in Afghanistan. The Taliban was protecting them. Americans are not stupid. We know who attacked us. Our mission was to go there and bring them to Justice, and get out. I don't think any American that gave Obama their votes expected anything else from this man and he knows it. Nobody gave him their votes to double down on nationbuilding or he wouldn't be President period! They just as well voted for McCain or Romney. If I was talking to him face to face, I wouldn't equivocate or beat around the bush. He claimed that he was working for us. We want him to get out of these countries and spend our resources at home. Let those countries, take care of themselves for a change instead of blaming everything on America. I don't think Americans are impressed with the Empire building.

[Ken Burch]

48. I wasn't talking about total pacifism-I said restrict our wars to territorial defense.

Why wouldn't the American people be happy with leaving it at that? It's not like there's this massive groundswell of public support for U.S. involvement in the Middle East...Americans aren't an unalterably militaristic people.

And why can't we find ways to involve ourselves with the world that aren't based on inflicting mass death or threatening it?

You're asking us to doom ourselves to eternal war when we don't really have to.

As to LBJ...he was great, but ONLY on domestic issues. On foreign policy his inflexible militarism and his adamant insistence that the U.S. should always back the wealthy in any class-based dispute anywhere made us a hated nation during his era. He should have allied himself with the world's poor, not the bazillionaires...and he shouldn't have insisted that EVERY situation in which the poor were rising against the powerful could only be happening because the Soviet Union wanted them to rise. But he drank Joe McCarthy and J. Edgar Hoover's koolaid on all of that, and that's why he not only escalated in Vietnam when he knew we could never win that war(when you get right down to it, we haven't actually WON a war since 1945)but also abetted the essentially fascist military coups in Brazil and Greece and sent our Marines in to keep the rich in power in the Dominican Republic.

The American people didn't demand that LBJ do ANY of that.

[burnodo]

5. Well, I'm sorry

if there's a Democrat in power, you know he's going to have a bunch of warmongers advising him

[graham4anything]

10. actually, I would consider LIBERAL SOS John Kerry to be a man of peace, wouldn't you? I do.

[burnodo]

13. he voted for the IWR

and running for president he told us how he'd "kill" the terrorists

Not really a man of peace, even in your variegated worldview

[graham4anything]

16. SOS Kerry knows the real world, and never does anything loosely or lightly.

and though I mistakenly said a few not nice things in the heat of the interim Mass. senate elect as he was becoming SOS,
and apologized for that more than once, but it was in the heat of the moment.

Sorry, but I will defend John Kerry to the hilt.

You pick the best advisors you can, and go with it.
After all, JFK put his 100% trust in McNamara,and well, anyhow, JFK and RFK would NOT have fit the OP here anywhere.

NO ONE would. The person does NOT exist that would fit the OP and be able to win in 2016.

Superman is just a reimagined comic book and doesn't exist.(and one I myself would rather they would have put Chadwick Boseman of 42 in the role, and not the person who for some reason or other ended up with the role(did everyone else turn it down?)

[Spitfire of ATJ]

22. "Sorry, but I will defend John Kerry to the hilt."

Despite his own caving.

[John2]

39. If I could

find someone better than John Kerry, I would vote for him or her. There was nobody better than Kerry when he ran, but I know several people held their noses and voted for him. They considered him part of the establishment. There are people that refuse to vote, because they don't see much difference now between the Democratic Party and the Republican Party. Kerry considered John McCain of all people for his vice President. They ask for our votes, and when they get them, they run from our issues. It started with Bill Clinton and this Triangulation crap.

John Kerry is still in bed with the likes of John McCain and Lindsey Graham. This entire country is changing Demographically. The Democratic Party does not need to continue, to run towards the right. The majority of America is moving more to the left with each generation. The Gay Rights and Drug issue, should be a good indicator of it. Back then, I could understand a Democratic politician moving more to the center, but times change and so does America. It is a maturation process.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

45. Kerry was the last gasp of the DLC....

They even did their "wisdom" of tossing in a slippery, horndog Southerner for the women's vote.

And, yes, Edwards was to be Clinton Mark II.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

46. "There was nobody better than Kerry when he ran"

Kucinich.

Oh,...but that's right,...he wasn't "electable".

[burnodo]

44. So you admit he's not a man of peace

Which is what you said up thread

[Ken Burch]

51. RFK would have fit it in 1968.

He was calling for a clear break with LBJ's militarism...and a real effort to switch to non-lethal means of engaging with the world. Bobby was championing the GLOBAL poor in that election, not just fighting for the poor in this country...and he had got it that the status quo didn't work anymore. In my view, that's why he was killed(Sirhan was just a patsy, and in any case he wasn't in the right position in the Ambassador pantry to have fired the shot that killed Bobby...Sirhan was in front of Bobby and his gun, according to the witnesses, and the shot that killed Bobby, according to the coroner, was fired from BEHIND Bobby and from between 1 1/2 and 3 inches away from Bobby's head.)

[Egalitarian Thug]

37. Yeah sure, but what do you think of Ralph Nader? n/t

[ReRe]

35. Especially when you choose a "team of rivals" :-( n/t

[newfie11]

6. +MILLON!!!!!!!!!

And here at home bridges fall down, kids hungry, families homeless, but we must go to war on the other side of the world, on the same side as Al Qaeda no less.

Insane country we live in, now that it is controlled by the very rich with their own agenda.

[B Calm]

12. Korea is still a divided country!

You'd think after fighting a war with Korea, the US could have won something.

[graham4anything]

18. What about Germany? What about believe it or not, Vietnam(now a tourist area).

and btw, just today I read that Korea wants to come to the table in peace, after the rhetoric of the last few years.

[B Calm]

21. If we had won the Korean War

we wouldn't be having peace talks!

[Spitfire of ATJ]

25. Define a "win"....

Because by using war it's "death to all who oppose us".

[B Calm]

27. The Korean War was fought to

stomp out communism. 60 years later we still have the threat. So what did we win? NOTHING

[Spitfire of ATJ]

29. That's because war doesn't work anymore....

The world doesn't play by the same rules. There was a time when you could wipe out everybody and take over their land but that's considered a crime now. Hell, they used to not only wipe out all the people but wipe out any record they ever existed.

[democrank]

36. Hello there, graham4anything.

Vietnam may now be a "tourist area" according to you, but many of the soldiers who fought the Vietnam War probably aren`t going on vacation anytime soon. Especially the one I live with who has cancer. In three places. Remember Agent Orange?

I spent much of the last several months at the VA in White River Junction, Vermont. I didn`t hear one, single war cheerleader. Not one chest thumper. Not one, "I`d do it all over again if I had the chance."

The young (very young) man I know of who got both hands blown off in Chickenhawk Bush`s Iraq War certainly doesn`t want another crack at it.

It`s time to get our imperialism in check and it`s time to reject immoral domination of others.

I`m nearly 70 years old and I`m fed to hell up with the pro-war crowd.

[John2]

43. I came up through

the Vietnam Era and I saw some of my friends and family fight in that War. I had family members that died and came back with problems fighting in Vietnam. I was on the latter end of it and received Vietnam veterans benefits, which Congress started to renege on.

I was for the protesters, even while we were fighting in that War. There was a Draft and we had to go. The support was for the soldiers, but not the politicians that got us into that War. Many of us did not even know what Communism was. Some of our heroes refused to go such as Cassius Clay, and we supported him.

In the end the North Vietnamese won, and the World didn't come to an end. It would have according to the likes of John McCain. He is still pushing the same rhetoric now, that he was pushing back then. It didn't threaten the U.S. at all because the North Vietnamese won. What it ended up being, was the reunification of Vietnam, and the Vietnamese people deciding for themselves what is best for them. Now they have a mix of Communism and Capitalist ideas, for the betterment of their people. The same thing is happening with China. The same will happen in the Middle East, Iran and even Korea, without foreign intervention. There are two ways they can bring it about. They can do it peacefully or violently, but it has to be self determination.

I would even argue that process happened in this country with our Civil War and it is still evolving. We are just further ahead in the process.

[Ken Burch]

54. Vietnam isn't a tourist area because WE bombed the living shit out of it.

And North Korea's(interesting that you called it "Korea&quot apparent change of heart doesn't vindicate the confrontation rhetoric on our side.
If you want the DPRK to really change, you should be calling on our government to pressure South Korea to back of it it's bloodthirsty tone. It's not like only one side is to blame there.

[PuraVidaDreamin]

31. The "National interests" our leaders say we are fighting for are simply the interests of the wealthy

I may meed to banner an overpass with this quote!

[Ken Burch]

52. Please do. And don't limit yourself to one overpass if you feel the need to banner many.

Have a nice weekend.

[SHRED]

34. War= BIG business

Like Bob Dylan once sang, "Money doesn't talk, it swears".

[East Coast Pirate]

38. It looks like we're fighting a proxy war with Iran.

Over 100,000 dead so far.

We fought China in Korea. We fought Russia in Vietnam and Afghanistan.

Nuclear weapons were supposed to end war. The super powers found a way around that.

[cali]

41. of course we're fighting a proxy war with Iran and not just in Syria

and for that matter, not just with Iran.

[JackRiddler]

55. It looks like the roster for World War III, doesn't it?

US, UK, the oil kingdoms, Turkey, France and "al-Qaeda" (whatever it is) directly involved for the rebel forces vs. Russia, Iran and Hezbollah for Assad, China somewhere behind them, and Israel as the insane wildcard liable to do anything. The other day Egyptian president called on volunteers to join the international brigades. Enjoy!

[ReRe]

42. I believe Peace can be as lucrative as war.

K&R

.... War is so... Old Testament. It's uncivilized. It's senseless. It's EVIL incarnate.

It's the 21st Century, for Christ's sake! We can't afford this anymore. We are going backwards because of it. Our people need education. And food!!! Most of our infrastructure is 100 effing years old. We need to plan for sustainability without fossil fuels. We need to get the frankenfood off the shelves once and for all. We need to bring back some regulations and save our effing lives! Put a cap on these $Trillion businesses. Or tax the sin out of them. Effing unprivatize everything that's been privatized over the last 60 years. Reclaim our commons! Get the effing corrupt Corporation out of our government. You get the gist....

I do realize that all this would take years to do, as we didn't get here overnight. But it needs to be done, or this country is toast, and all of us that live in it.

Our lives are not our own anymore!

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

47. But..but...erecting bogeymen to fight worked ever so well for LBJ, Nixon, and Bush.

It displayed how "tough" they were....with the blood of the cannon-fodder sent to give them "tough guy" PR.

[99Forever]

50. K&R

War is ALWAYS the ultimate failure. ALWAYS.

[dkf]

53. Susan Rice and Samantha Powers are "Humanitarian Hawks".

Get prepared for perpetual war as they get their way.