New BREAKING scandal: Snowden provides evidence that US and UK spy agencies spy on other countries

[Cali_Democrat]

I kid you not. This is what counts as a scandal now days. Revealing information that spy agencies are engaging in spying.

GCHQ intercepted foreign politicians' communications at G20 summits:

http://www.guardiannews.com/uk/2013/jun/16/gchq-intercepted-communications-g20-summits

NSA targeted Dmitry Medvedev at London G20 summit


http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/16/nsa-dmitry-medvedev-g20-summit

Spy agencies actually spying? Holy shit. This is scandalous.

Snowden is well past his expiration date.

[randome]

1. The PowerPoint slide! He led off with a fucking PowerPoint slide!

It's all downhill from here on in.

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[leveymg]

3. This thread is all downhill.

Just another cheap shot with nothing new to say.

[randome]

4. As is Greenwald's latest 'revelation'.

Or the 20 other threads telling us that the NSA is downloading the entire Internet every day. They are watching my thoughts form as I type!

[hr]
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[usGovOwesUs3Trillion]

41. Well, let's see how our alies react to our spying on them and their businesses

to gain competitive advantage.

Of course I suspect those who benefit from the crooked game to be quite pleased with the arrangement, but not many others.

We are witnessing the death spiral of America, all thanks to the neoCONs & neoLiberals, the real TRAITORS in my opinion.

Maybe we should not have raised our Children on the notion of truth, justice, and fairness, eh?

Is that how you have raised yours?

[randome]

43. You know, we have been doomed and 'death-spiraling' since I joined DU in 2001.

Still waiting for that Hammer Of Dismay to descend. We have problems and they need to be fixed. But we can persevere. So can my daughters. I raised them to go out and make their marks on the world, not to be afraid.

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[usGovOwesUs3Trillion]

44. Yep, and it just keeps getting worse, doesn't it?

Well, except perhaps for the 1 percent, but they see what's coming and that is precisely why they have rigged the system. first to steal from us, and now propping it up as long as they can... to be ready, for the inevitable consequences once they no longer can.

I hope you instilled in your daughters a respect for the truth, and to not be fooled by the slick salesman out there ready to spin anything up for them to get what they want.

These young men you slander on here daily have left a much greater mark than you or your daughters, thus far, let's hope they will take note and go on to be as selfless, patriotic, brave, and honorable as they.

[treestar]

53. that has to be the funniest post on DU

our allies will be shocked at this?

[Leopolds Ghost]

67. I don't care about spying

as long as it's not on a government's own citizens or residents, or for war crimes
such as targeted killings of people that do not pose an imminent physical threat, or for criminal gain.

You do realize the US is educating an entire generation of hackers with these programs, though.

[bahrbearian]

18. Nice try Nixon

[JI7]

55. i have a hard time taking things presented with powerpoint

seriously.

and it always seems to be douchebag types who use it

[usGovOwesUs3Trillion]

64. just reveals your ignorance to the most popular means of presenting info in corp and gov today

thats all

but, wait... are you saying the NSA are "douchebag types"... can you clarify?

[Leopolds Ghost]

80. Well, Snowden was an NSA type, and there are a lot of douchebags who rely on powerpoint

who work for gov't / big business. But there are also a lot of well-meaning bureaucrats who use it.

I feel for them, they are stuck in their ways.

[NYC_SKP]

2. When are his 15 minutes up, FFS?

[Leopolds Ghost]

48. Et Tu, NYC?

[NYC_SKP]

52. LG!

I've grown impatient with Snowden and suspicious about the timing of things and this apparent trickling of new information.

But I'm delighted that this news, which isn't exactly breaking, is again the subject of discussion.

[Leopolds Ghost]

63. As always with this sort of stuff, I don't always trust the messenger.

I applaud Snowden for what he did but he's making some bone-headed moves if I'm reading his statements correctly. It could be chalked up to inexperience. Holing up in a country like China is too clever by half. It reminds me of liberals who go on about how wonderful RT television is because they are the only network that is willing to criticize the US government -- true, but they don't apply the same standard at home -- it's like the BBC.

He should have remained anonymous. But then that would have brought unbearable heat down on anybody who was an anonymous whistleblower in tech, and there are... um, there were... many. Besides they would have secretly found out who he was anyway.

But he overestimated the competence of the US Gov't to actually **do anything** with the info, as anyone from the DC area could have told him. (which is another argument against the effectiveness of NSA wiretapping...) He should have gone to a neutral country, sought asylum in an embassy *there* and came out in the process. A quick honeymoon with the girlfriend to Iceland.

Doing so in China puts him and us in an uncomfortable position where he appears to be grey-mailing the US to ensure his own safety (thereby obscuring the message by tarnishing the messenger) instead of relying on popular support to end the abuses. If he wanted to use go that route he should do so quietly, like, say, "I have a bunch of files that I showed to journalists whom I trust, but them and me mutually agreed that it would be inappropriate to release them to the public, because FUCK CHINA, that's why. So all we did was make copies... many many copies."

I just got back to DU today.

I wrote something on Thursday and it took me till today to gather the links and data to type it out. Stay tuned for an epic post by me ranting about this issue.

[BumRushDaShow]

5. K&R

[Life Long Dem]

6. Time for the next hyperbole scandal

[flamingdem]

21. I am soo bored, bring on the next scandal posthaste!

[OilemFirchen]

57. Next up

American cheese isn't really cheese.

[timdog44]

75. Or even worse

it isn't really American. Makes me wonder where Swiss cheese comes from?

[flamingdem]

102. I bet that Swiss cheese is really

Chinese. The Yellow Peril mit holen!

[Whisp]

90. and make it in power point!

in burgundy and navy with white Helvetica, what do you think?

[usGovOwesUs3Trillion]

7. Not only that we are spying on our allies, but we are passing on business info for competitive

advantage.

something we accused china of, claiming we would NEVER do such a thing.

See that is just another problem with Harvesting, storing, and analyzing ALL communications, it is not done for terrorism.

[FreeState]

23. +1 n/t

[Cali_Democrat]

105. So the US is hypocritical?

We accused China of hacking...meanwhile...he hack China all day long.

Yes...this is true.

[ProSense]

8. I'm renaming this

OMG-Gate.

The original reporting was so shoddy that the only way to keep the revelations new via hyperbole and misinformation.

Countries are spying!!!

OMG!

[FSogol]

9. +1. OMG!

[bahrbearian]

10. Of Course you would.

[ProSense]

12. Damn skippy.

People reacting knee-jerk to every bogus media report need not climb on a high horse.

[bahrbearian]

13. Damn Skippy, you would be knee jerk. and then talk about a high horse.

[Progressive dog]

17. +1 more

OMG-Gate

[Cali_Democrat]

20. LOL

[flamingdem]

22. How about "Good heavens! - gate" - the British version

[BumRushDaShow]

26. Or "Crikey-gate"

[flamingdem]

29. blimey-bugger-with-bangers gate!

gawd save the queen

[BumRushDaShow]

35. !!!!

[Tarheel_Dem]

59. "blimey-bugger-with-bangers gate!".

[NBachers]

60. Odds bodkins-gate

[treestar]

54. Haha +1

[Cha]

106. lol! GG can't admit that or it would look like he got

duped or something.. so the only way forward is Just Get Messier.

OMGATE

[Andy823]

11. Spies spying on spies

It's been going on longer than anyone here on DU can remember. It's what developing nations have done for ages,, and now with more high tech ways to spy, even the smaller nations are doing it. It shouldn't be a surprise to find out that the U.S., UK, China, Russia, all have been doing this for a long, long time. If one of these countries is "shocked" to find this out, well that's just plain BS.

[BumRushDaShow]

14. Exactly. +1

[Trekologer]

27. It would be a scandal if the U.S. wasn't keeping tabs on other countries and their spies

To quote the James Bond movie Goldeneye, "We prefer not to get our bad news from CNN".

[DCBob]

15. Shocking.. Obama should be impeached!

[flamingdem]

24. bloody 'ell 'n bangers 'n mash!

[Progressive dog]

16. Who would have guessed that spy agencies spy.

It took Hong Kong Eddie to tell us that after he fled to an authoritarian country.

[flamingdem]

25. Yeah, but he's making us "dialog" about it now

He meant well, oh except for telling the Chinese all they wanna know

[Thinkingabout]

19. Are those here who have not heard of the show "I Spy", James Bond and on and on.

Snowden must be some kind of a hero, he has now revealed the US and UK spy on other countries. Hey, Snowden there are agents spying on you also, oh, they also know every keystroke you made while at the NSA and also the files you copied.

[timdog44]

78. I'll bet he has

a telephone in his shoe.

[Earth_First]

28. What this new revelation means, in my opinion...

Is that the wild accusations that Snowden was/is working espionage for the Chinese government and/or this was a political plot against the Obama administration are even more unfounded.

It's disheartening to see that the usual suspects are still wildly shouting down the larger importance of this story as this continues to unfold into a larger situation.

[randome]

33. You mean Ed "I'm-not-here-to-hide-from-justice" Snowden?

From his 'undisclosed location' in Hong Kong?

You mean that Ed Snowden?

I suppose the Chinese authorities will take extra special care to be sure that Mr. Snowden's civil rights are respected.

If he wasn't working for the Chinese when he went there, he will be soon. Unless he's extradited back here.

His resume hasn't held up. His claims haven't held up. Why would anyone believe a thing he has to say?

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[bowens43]

36. Obama's operatives are out in force tonight. Do they pay you for posting this stuff?

His claims have held up.


THE GOVERNMENT HAS OPENLY ADMITTED THAT THEY ARE SPYING ON AMERICAN CITIZENS ON A MASSIVE ALL ENCOMPASSING SCALE!!!

unfucking believable.

[randome]

38. Can you provide a link to that bold assertion? I must have missed it.

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[treestar]

51. Who's paying you, the Koch brothers? nt

[OilemFirchen]

39. Still not buying that the Chinese turned him.

He looks to be a free agent.

[randome]

42. I think you're right. I don't buy it, either. He seems too unsophisticated.

I don't even think he's much of an IT 'genius' as his friend claimed on the Lawrence O'Donnell show. I think he's spent much of his life pretending and smoothing his way past people to hide very deep-seated insecurities.

Just armchair speculation, of course.

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[zeemike]

62. That post just went right over your head didn't it?

It is not about the Big Brother surveillance state that spend 80 billion dollars spying on every American but about that little rat fink Snowden....get that little bastard and leave those nice corporate oligarchs alone...How dare he mess with the racket they have going.
Too much money involved to let some kid mess it up for them...

Release the hounds to destroy him...And the barking and snarling continues.

[randome]

74. His claims do not hold up.

If he can't furnish evidence of his outlandish claims, then of course his credibility becomes an issue.

The NSA can see our thoughts form as we type!

The NSA is storing all communications from everyone, in other words, they are downloading the Internet on a daily basis. This isn't even Sci-Fi stuff, it's magical Harry Potter crap!

He said "I saw things." What things? He never specified!

His 'direct access' crap -based on a PowerPoint slide, no less!- has been thoroughly debunked. If he had half the IT smarts he claims, he would have addressed the totally plausible explanation that those servers are secure FTP servers. In other words, a way for the big companies to put data that they turned over because of LEGAL WARRANTS.

He said he could monitor the President's email! Do you think he might have shown us one to support that claim?

I'll believe anything Snowden or Greenwald have to say. They don't need to prove it to me. Just show me some evidence. So far they haven't.

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[usGovOwesUs3Trillion]

86. Old tired lies, which are often pointed out to be false, will never sway the sophist (VIDEO)

3 NSA veterans speak out on whistle-blower: We told you so
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2013/06/16/snowden-whistleblower-nsa-officials-roundtable/2428809/

NSA taps directly into fiber optic trunk cables of ATT (AT&T Whistle-Blower's Evidence)
http://www.wired.com/science/discoveries/news/2006/05/70908

Daniel Ellsberg On Edward Snowden: 'He Made The Right Choice' (VIDEO)
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/13/daniel-ellsberg-edward-snowden_n_3438431.html

Edward Snowden himself, which has caused the hill to go apoplectic...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/video/2013/jun/09/nsa-whistleblower-edward-snowden-interview-video

As I said, NOTHING will get a sophist to change their tune, except their master calling the tune.

Fortunately, all of you, are losing your psyop war here on DU, as the polls on here have indicated all week.

Though I want to toast you for all the teachable moments you provide for, thank you

[randome]

88. Really, you're going to bring up Bush, Jr. to support Snowden?

As I said, Snowden & Greenwald have shown us no evidence, only outlandish claims. That's how I see it.

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[usGovOwesUs3Trillion]

91. I brought up a lot more than that, but don't let that stop your transparent spin

The whistle blowers have the entire gov in a tizzy right now, especially Snowden with his TOP SECRET documents (whos authenticity has not been denied by the gov - of course even that doesn't phase you) that speak for themselves, but all you got is your continued lame denial even when evidence is presented to you directly.

again, thank you for the opportunity to point out your spin, out right lies, and to present the evidence.

[zeemike]

87. So you are saying then

That NSA does not store our data, and does not spend 80 billion to do it?

But tell us how you know that these things he said are not true....do you have some special knowledge or are you just acting on your hunch because you can look into his eyes and see his soul?

No sir I think you are just following the crowd, and repeating the talking pints they gave you....I can tell because of how you articulate it...it is to contrived to be normal.
Did you finish high school?....do you have a girl friend?...does she dance?

[randome]

89. Show. Me. Some. Evidence.

That's all that's required for me to change my mind about something.

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[hr]

[usGovOwesUs3Trillion]

93. You have been shown evidence repeatedly, but thank you for the opportunity to present it again...

3 NSA veterans speak out on whistle-blower: We told you so
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2013/06/16/snowden-whistleblower-nsa-officials-roundtable/2428809/

NSA taps directly into fiber optic trunk cables of ATT (AT&T Whistle-Blower's Evidence)
http://www.wired.com/science/discoveries/news/2006/05/70908

Daniel Ellsberg On Edward Snowden: 'He Made The Right Choice' (VIDEO)
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/13/daniel-ellsberg-edward-snowden_n_3438431.html

Edward Snowden himself, which has caused the hill to go apoplectic...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/video/2013/jun/09/nsa-whistleblower-edward-snowden-interview-video

As I said many times, but bears repeating, NOTHING will get a sophist to change their tune, except their master calling the tune.

Fortunately, all of you, are losing your psyop war here on DU, as the polls on here have indicated all week.

Though I want to toast you, again, for all the teachable moments you provide for, thank you

[zeemike]

94. Why should I ?

There has been tons of it posted here for the last week....if you did not believe it from them why would you believe it from me?

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

30. OH NOES!! Maybe this will bring down the black, socialist Muslim from Kenya!!

[OilemFirchen]

31. It would appear that Snowden...

while busily fantasizing about tapping the President's phone was merely stealing State secrets. He likely is not providing any damning information about the evil gummint spying on us, because he likely doesn't have any.

He does, however, seem to be establishing his bona fides to interested third parties, seemingly in the beginning stages of creating a new business venture.

Now... how are our citizens' liberties advanced by these revelations?

[bowens43]

34. Wow.

First of all, the 'gummint ' as you so call it IS spying ion us. He has already provided the damning information and that information has been verified bu several people in the federal government.

'how are our citizens' liberties advanced by these revelations?' Seriously? If you have to ask, you wouldn't understand the answer.

[bowens43]

32. Yes keep spinning

Snowden is a hero , your spin won't change that

[RC]

45. Ya looked under your bed and didn't see anybody, so no one's spying on us, right?

You just keep thinking that while the rest of figure out how best to fix the problem of our own government spying on us.

[SoapBox]

46. Hero?

Phfffft.

Traitor weasel that fled to China.

Ya, some hero.

[timdog44]

81. Now that

makes real heroes look bad. And I know a few. He does not qualify to wipe their ass.

[sarisataka]

37. Uh oh...

[dlwickham]

40. I was waiting for someone to post something from Spy v. Spy

[Coccydynia]

47. The takeaway from this post is ...

Breaking news, globe is warming, so what.
Breaking news, Banksters steal, so what.
Breaking news, semi-automatics kill faster, so what.

I guess we needn't concern ourselves when politicians we support do nothing to change the status quo.

How dispiriting.

[Leopolds Ghost]

58. This generation never seems to do. Or mine.

Welcome to DU, Coccydynia.

At least there are a few people out there who care.

[Coccydynia]

83. Thank you Leopolds Ghost

I shall endeavor to make meaningful contributions to DU and continue to encourage my kids' generation to engage.

[uppityperson]

99. Welcome to DU and interesting name

[Coccydynia]

100. A medical play on words

Coccyx is tailbone, and denia means pain. So we have tailbone pain or as I like to think of myself, a pain in the a$$

[uppityperson]

103. Indeed, good pun.

[Coccydynia]

110. I must credit my wife, an ER nurse.

[Leopolds Ghost]

111. You are awesome!

[treestar]

49. Duh

We probably spy on the Chinese and Russians too. Pakistan, India, Indonesia, Iran, Iraq. Oh the horror!

[Bonobo]

50. But he's narcissistic, so it CAN'T be true! nt

[Pirate Smile]

56. Wow - spy agencies spy. No shit. The cover of this being about our "civil liberties" is gone.

[Tarheel_Dem]

61. I didn't click the link, but is this Greenwald's latest installment in the continuing saga?

[OilemFirchen]

66. Yurp.

Sometimes the stories write themselves.

[Tarheel_Dem]

68. Thing is, this story wrote itself with the invention of phones. Where's the news?

[Leopolds Ghost]

76. You mean, you grew up believing phones should be tapped?

Funny thing is, you know who invented mass mail surveillance in this country? The prewar Confederates. They read all mail in order to round up abolitionists. That's why it's considered a big no-no here. If they hadn't done it first we'd be doing it. Just like carpet bombing. Hitler did it first, but we followed suit, so it became OK even though it used to be a war crime.

[Leopolds Ghost]

70. "I didn't click the link"

"I'm not one of those people who care about this issue, honest!"



Drip... drip... drip. It appears Greenwald understands how the media works better than Gellman, who trusted his bosses at the Washington Post.

[Tarheel_Dem]

73. I don't mind all links, I just don't visit The Guardian since GG joined them.

[Leopolds Ghost]

77. What do you have against him?

Just wondering. I tend to applaud whistleblowers.

[Tarheel_Dem]

85. !!!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3028804

[Leopolds Ghost]

92. ???

I have been harping on this issue for years, without the benefit of being a journalist or a good writer like Greenwald.

Keep in mind that there are people out there, who presumably know people who *have* been affected personally by this. As in, people assigned to look into their Facebook who then came out and told the person of interest (who was, hypothetically speaking, an activist of some sort) and got fired for refusing to monitor them anymore. Having heard of stories like this, none if this was news -- the Harpers article that came out years ago just confirmed other accounts we've heard going back years. And as the administration themselves noted, everyone who was remotely plugged in already "knew this was going on but agreed not to talk about it" -- it's been an open secret that doesn't make it right, especially when they pretend it's legal because they're not doing it, then they're doing it but you already suspected it so it's ok -- sounds like date rape justification to me.

I was planning to post a scan of the Atlantic (?) article on Palantir before this story came out, as it was big news on the warrantless wiretapping front if you ask me.

Especially the part about how NSA had decided to hack Palantir and make their own version without the safeguards advocated by Palantir's makers.

[usGovOwesUs3Trillion]

95. that's it, attack the messenger, well how about wired or usa today (LINKS)

3 NSA veterans speak out on whistle-blower: We told you so
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2013/06/16/snowden-whistleblower-nsa-officials-roundtable/2428809/

NSA taps directly into fiber optic trunk cables of ATT (AT&T Whistle-Blower's Evidence)
http://www.wired.com/science/discoveries/news/2006/05/70908

Daniel Ellsberg On Edward Snowden: 'He Made The Right Choice' (VIDEO)
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/13/daniel-ellsberg-edward-snowden_n_3438431.html

Edward Snowden himself, which has caused the hill to go apoplectic...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/video/2013/jun/09/nsa-whistleblower-edward-snowden-interview-video

As I said many times, but bears repeating, NOTHING will get a sophist to change their tune, except their master calling the tune.

Fortunately, all of you, are losing your psyop war here on DU, as the polls on here have indicated all week.

Though I want to toast you, again, for all the teachable moments you provide, thank you

[Tarheel_Dem]

97. The polls also indicate that the American people want Snowden prosecuted. We don't....

like traitors either. As for "losing", are you talking about DU, the haven for Green/Paulite rejects who don't have their own discussion board? The good news for us "psyop warriors" is that the media has gotten over the initial sensationalism, and are collectively taking a much harder look at Hong Kong Eddie.

[usGovOwesUs3Trillion]

98. Multiple New Polls Show Americans Reject Wholesale NSA Domestic Spying

https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2013/06/multiple-new-polls-show-americans-reject-wholesale-nsa-domestic-spying

What about you, eh?

[flamingdem]

104. + 1 to this "DU, the haven for Green/Paulite rejects who don't have their own discussion board? "

[Tarheel_Dem]

112. It's their MO. Destroy the infrastructure that others have built, because they're too stupid or....

stoned to build their own.

[alfredo]

65. Water is wet

[MisterP]

69. do creepy Blairite false saviors and their slavering lackeys have expiry dates?

[Leopolds Ghost]

71. Blairite?

[Beacool]

72. New BREAKING scandal............

Water is wet, snow is cold and spy agencies.......errr........cough, cough..........spy on each other.

Who would have thunk it?

Snowden could have saved himself the cost of airfare to Hong Kong.

[Leopolds Ghost]

79. And targeted killings. There's, y'know, that too.

[Iliyah]

82. Wonder what other country will be outed

on spying.

Civil liberties, the US Constitution and by golly the 1st, 2nd, and 4th Amendments GAWD damn it.

Staying in line for almost 5 hours or more. Women's rights - a few, equal pay and body parts. Workers - low salary and no benefits to name a few. SNAP proposal of cuts. Welfare is the cause of the downfall of our society, et al.,

Personally, don't assume my understanding of what the fuck is happening is no concern nor non caring. My view, I've lived the ups and mostly the downs and try to keep informed.

VOTE. Wanna make a difference? Shit the Tea party heads did, and look what we got cause "us" stayed home. Congress has the purse (house) and creates the laws and can repeal, change or take away.

[kentuck]

84. Call 60 Minutes!

That's like saying the US has been hacking Chinese computers since 2009! Wow! Never mind that they have been hacking ours since the late 1990's. That is no secret. I could have told you that.

[usGovOwesUs3Trillion]

96. Did you know this was being done for competitive business advantage, and not counter terrorism?

Im sure some of our alies might not appreciate that, especially since we have EMPHATICALLY, and under OATH, have denied EVER doing that.

Well?

[mick063]

101. I'm not laughing

Un rec.

[Jamaal510]

107. .

[ucrdem]

108. Transparent effort to kneecap Obama at the G8.

Whose I don't know. Could be US neocons, could be MI5. I'm leaning toward the Halliburton gang. Probably some combination of all three.

[Cali_Democrat]

113. Inetersing point

It's being timed perfectly to coincide with the G8. Also, noticed how the China leak coincided perfectly with Obama's meeting with the Chinese leader.

[mfcorey1]

109. WTW? Countries have always spied on each other. Nothing here and moving on. eom