#Snowden: Last Word For Today, and It's For You, DU...

[JackRiddler]

"Unfortunately, the mainstream media now seems more interested in what I said when I was 17 or what my girlfriend looks like, rather than, say, the largest program of suspicionless surveillance in human history."

[uponit7771]

1. Nah, we're more interested in why you would go through these lengths for a known known

...basically an extension of a story that come out more than 6 years ago

[RobertEarl]

6. Because he is a patriot!

The guy is a hero to the people.

[drynberg]

100. YES, A WHISTLE BLOWING PATRIOT

Mr. Snowden has sacrificed so much for the love of his country, with the only fear being that "nothing changes". We need to rally behind Edward Snowden, as a defender of liberty and truth.

[RobertEarl]

110. Rallywith Snowden

He hopes, as I do, that Obama will be forced to make audacious changes.

Obama will, if enough of us tell him too.

[Abukhatar]

123. so why would Snowden report about US spying on other countires?

if he really cared only about spying on US citizens why reveal we spied on China and other countries? By this act, he is committing treason - i don't think he gets to decide what is good for our country - raising a stink about domestic spying is one thing, revealing national security activities is treason. Perhaps he is using the domestic spying as a cover for his more malicious intent

[Enthusiast]

127. Other countries already know.

That's the point.

China should trust us. We gave them all of our jobs with more on the way.

[Abukhatar]

138. just like we already knew...

Since 2006

[Rincewind]

118. What people ?

I'm a people, and he isn't a hero to me. I don't think he's a traitor, but he certainly isn't a hero.

[gholtron]

140. I am not calling him a Hero.

I still don't know what he has revealed that we didn't already know about Patriot Act. I still don't know the laws he revealed that that the government broken that qualifies him as a whistle blower? I still don't know why we should call him a Hero. I know I am going to get a lot of smart ass responses but really What did this man do? I don't like the Patriot Act, however it is the law of the land until the Supreme Court tells us otherwise. So why didn't we have this protest years ago when the Patriot Act when it was first talked about?

[TheMadMonk]

160. He revealed a lot which we may well have known, but...

...could not demonstrate.

He got admissions to what was still being denied just days earlier.

He showed us just how already over reaching, emergency measures made permanent, were being creatively interpreted to reach even further.

[ohheckyeah]

15. I keep seeing this statement - a

statement which is obviously incorrect. If the story were known by the majority of people then nobody would care now. Why are you trying so hard to act like this isn't news to many people? You ignore the fact that what Snowden brought to light was proof of a suspicion...nobody had seen one of these documents before, including previous whistleblowers. Let's see, should we believe uponit7771 or 4 men who sacrificed their careers, trying for years to bring the issue to the light?

All you appear to want to do is shove this back into the darkness of secrecy.

[rusty fender]

33. + 1

Excellent response to the inanity of the spying deniers.

[zeemike]

40. "old news" is a dismissal tactic.

some people seem to think that if they can show it has been covered before it can't be covered again...they make these rules up for us to follow....it is the authoritarian way.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

73. Imagine someone coming forward to provide undeniable proof 9/11 was an inside job...

I'm talking internal Pentagon documents of the building of drone aircraft and the transcripts of the team that flew them into the WTC and Pentagon. Toss in final orders based on weather reports to make sure visibility would be excellent and a snide remark from some asshole about 9/11 being like 911 on the phone.

You can bet someone would come forward and say, "Old news. We knew this already."

[JackRiddler]

132. Spitfire, I believe you will enjoy the following.

I wrote it almost seven years ago! Ack! It posits exactly the scenario you describe, including the "old news" angle...

"Cheney Says He Masterminded 9/11, But the Spinners Refuse to Be Spun"
http://rigorousintuition.ca/board2/viewtopic.php?t=16245&p=168307

[Spitfire of ATJ]

158. "Before you celebrate that 9/11 has been exposed,...

....remember that the UN-led Chinese Army is poised along the Mexican border. They are here to impose a one-world, Satanist government led by Jimmy Carter, Hillary Clinton, Nelson Mandela, George Soros, Gorbachev, Zionists, euthanasiasts, Freemasons and Bilderbergers."

"And make no mistake," Stones thundered. "They will take our guns away!""

[Maedhros]

52. If there's room under the bus for David Sirota

I'll post a link to an article today on Salon discussing exactly why the surveillance program is problematic:

link:http://www.salon.com/2013/06/17/were_all_terrorist_suspects_now/

Thus, when the NSA is successful in getting such a warrant from the FISA court, both the agency and the court are implicitly asserting that such a warrant meets the constitution’s Fourth Amendment requirement that warrants are only issued when there is “probable cause.”

That requirement, of course, is not vague. Unlike many other amendments that deliberately left wiggle room for ongoing interpretation, the Constitution’s Fourth Amendment is inarguably set in stone in declaring that in the United States “no warrants shall issue but upon probable cause.” The inflexibility of that language was no accident – colonists’ backlash to the British monarchy’s use of general no-cause warrants was one of the main factors sparking the American Revolution. Consequently, as the Electronic Frontier Foundation shows, the founders sculpted the constitution to explicitly outlaw those boundless, no-cause general warrants.

Sirota quotes Rep. Grayson from his congressional floor speech:

According to their published statements, including a statement by their Director last Saturday, they maintain that it’s legal because of a single Supreme Court case decided in 1979 that said that the government, specifically local police authorities, could acquire the phone records of one person once…Because the Supreme Court says that, at that point, the government could acquire the phone records of one person once, the NSA is maintaining that its entire program is legal and that it can acquire the phone records of everyone, everywhere, forever. That is a farce.

The heart of the matter:

Put another way, NSA defenders’ argument that the FISA court’s mass-surveillance warrants comply with the Fourth Amendment boils down to this: no matter who we are or what we do, the government has probable cause to automatically consider all of us suspects all the time.

Is such a perpetual population-wide presumption of criminality legitimate? Does the executive branch really have “ongoing” probable cause to view the entire citizenry as potential criminals worthy of judiciary-sanctioned surveillance? These are some of the huge questions that the Supreme Court has used technicalities to try to avoid.

Similarly, they are questions that Obama officials don’t want to have to answer, likely because they (in part) don’t want to have to argue in public that yes, they believe all Americans should be considered suspects and that therefore the government has probable cause for surveillance. They don’t want to publicly make such an argument because they know it would almost certainly be politically unpopular. This may be one of the reasons the administration has fought to keep its legal rationale for such surveillance secret.

[klook]

135. Thank you. Good piece. (n/t)

[tblue]

147. [phone]! I can't believe

so many people here are defending this program. What the heck are they trying to protect? Or maybe the question is WHO are they trying to protect?

[LondonReign2]

21. It's amusing

seeing the brigade here trying to stuff the genie back in the bottle, sweep the bottle under the rug, and then claim it's an old bottle anyway and why would anyone be interested in a genie in the first place?

[Yo_Mama]

23. Yup. A nice summary.

I'm quite unhappy and confounded by events, but I'm not going to pretend that this all isn't happening.

[Civilization2]

39. Exactly these terror-state lackeys are jumping through hoops and denying the hoops exist simultanius

ly.

fun to watch, yet sad,. and more than a little pathetic.

[rhett o rick]

72. You left out that they have to denigrate all that looked at the genie. There was no genie.

Authoritarians must rely on the authoritarian structure and lash out at anyone that suggests there is a problem. These people would have stoned the boy that dared to exclaim that the Emperor had no clothes. Sadly these closed minded people call themselves Democrats. Obviously anyone can call themselves a Democrat.

[LondonReign2]

76. Not only is there no genie

The genie is also there for our own protection. If the genie existed - which it doesn't -- we can trust the government to only use the genie for good purposes. Besides, anyone claiming there is a genie-- which there isn't, except when it is being used to protect us -- is only doing so because they are a narcissist.

[rhett o rick]

79. .

[GoneFishin]

156. +1

[JackRiddler]

126. Ayup! Thanks!

[Coccydynia]

26. My take from your response is this:

The longer we know something, the less wrong it is. I guess I don't understand why we eliminated slavery and granted women the vote. On the other hand it will explain why we will ultimately do nothing about global warming.

[DesMoinesDem]

46. ...

[IMG][/IMG]

[grahamhgreen]

65. A "known known". Something Rumsfeld coined.

[JDPriestly]

68. Because the mainstream media has ignored the story as they

ignore so much of the real news.

Because a lot of people do not "get" what a serious, menacing development this is regardless of when it started or was first made known.

I remember prior statements by other whistleblowers, but their message was lost in the controversy over whether they should be indicted for giving away states' secrets.

[sabrina 1]

90. Then it's not important, so why all the fuss?

Just want to say also, that was one of the NSA's talking points in the memo that was released. 'It's an old story' which they said, was meant to diminish the importance of the story. Have you seen the memo btw?

I think they need new talking points. That one doesn't work, for the simple reason that it is incorrect.

[Th1onein]

92. Hey, you know what? That meme don't float.

It's either a leak or old news. Can't be both.

[bobduca]

105. PLONK

[SkyDaddy7]

136. EXACTLY!!

He basically told us NOTHING NEW except for maybe the name of the program.

But that does not make the mythology being created around Snowden that interesting!!

[railsback]

2. I'm more interested in why you ran away

Actions speak louder than words.

[uponit7771]

3. +1, for basically a non story

[Comrade Grumpy]

45. Yeah, nothing to see here, move along...and this traitor needs to be jailed for life.

Which is it?

[JackRiddler]

10. In other words, you'd like to see him dead or imprisoned...

in solitary confinement for the next two to four years before his zombie-like remains are trotted out in front of a kangaroo court, and, best of all: SILENT. Saying nothing.

Because that's what you're saying, whether you want to stand up to it or not.

Guess what, this is a digital war that began a long time ago. #Snowden chose to fight, and what a fight it's been so far.

[railsback]

14. Ok, now I'm thinking of a number between 1 and 55,483

Tell me what I'm thinking.

[JackRiddler]

27. I don't need to know what you are "thinking."

It's no concern of mine.

I read the words you write.

Are you thinking them? I don't know, maybe it's copy paste.

What matters is that, apparently, I understand the meaning and necessary consequences of your words better than you do.

[railsback]

29. You just told me what I'm thinking

so you MUST be concerned.

[frylock]

80. derpa derpa derp?

[JackRiddler]

125. heh. Good to see you, frylock.

[LanternWaste]

32. And from that, draw both inferences and conclusions that are based

"I read the words you write...."

And from that, draw both inferences and conclusions that are based as much as on our own biases as those of the literal words from speaker we are responding to. And from those inferences and conclusions, it seems we speak as much for them with our interpretations and misinterpretations as do they.

[JackRiddler]

124. Yeah, whatever. Where do you think Snowden would be "speaking" today...

If he'd followed the advice of turning himself in? Simple as that. Are you in denial?

[whopis01]

141. Is it 69?

[railsback]

151. Not fair

You must have seen my wife

[whopis01]

155. LOL! n/t

[treestar]

113. I'd rather see anyone who committed a crime imprisoned

If they are found guilty.

[backscatter712]

142. Exactly. railsback is another authoritarian neurotic, obsessed with punishing people.

Seriously, do these fascist nutbags think Snowden's fucking stupid? Of course he's going to get out of Dodge after the way previous whistleblowers were treated. That's common sense, not cowardice.

[whatchamacallit]

20. Dumbest argument ever

Congratulations.

[railsback]

28. Well, I guess I'd have to be a blind hero worshipper

to understand why that's the dumbest argument ever. Maybe you could poke my eyes out and convince me the NSA never monitored anything.

[DeSwiss]

60. ''Because he's not an idiot, Alex?'' :-| n/t

[JoeyT]

93. Take a look at how Manning was treated.

That pretty much answers your question.

Actions do speak louder than words, and torturing the last whistle blower pretty much guarantees every one after him are going to haul ass.

[railsback]

95. Manning released classified documents

Snowden hasn't produced anything concrete other than just opening his mouth.

[JoeyT]

96. Really? So he's not going to be arrested?

If he came back to the US he'd be on the street for about two seconds before he got tackled and drug off to a hole to wait for a kangaroo trial two or three years down the road.

[railsback]

106. Its always easiest to assume the worst

when looking for vindication.

[Warren Stupidity]

116. Then he can't be running away from anything as he hasn't done anything.

[Th1onein]

122. LOLOLOL! Yeah, right.

That's why their having apopletic fits trying to find him.

[JackRiddler]

133. Obviously you are not following this story very well.

#Snowden has produced highly concrete documents backing up what he says.

[railsback]

153. Yes, so, an inaccurate PRISM Power Point presentation

and some other documents, apparently only seen by The Guardian, saying we're all spying on each other. The only thing Snowden has done so far is put the U.S. at a severe disadvantage against all the countries spying on us.

I follow this story well enough to not be one of the many pouring gasoline on their heads and striking a match for all the wrong reasons.

[treestar]

112. Manning was in the military

That is an entirely different system.

[backscatter712]

145. Snowden isn't stupid. We both know he'd be supermaxed the instant he was caught.

I know, the very thought of seeing him suffer makes you moist and tingly inside.

[railsback]

150. Yes, we are all soothsayers

Just like we all know that the government is spying on everyone.. because we just know.. even after numerous companies are making public their records of NSA requests, which is like miniscule crumbs in the grand scheme of the giant melting pot that is America, we still just know that's not the case. These companies are obviously lying, WH cronies as Greenwald likes to call detractors, because we saw it in the TEA LEAVES.

Good Gawd.

Bag away.

[backscatter712]

154. We've explained it to you and your fellow authoritarians 20 times.

I don't feel like explaining to you again how Bradley Manning was and is being treated, and how Snowden's likely to be treated the same way.

So instead, why don't I just call you out on your dishonest circular arguments.

Then why don't I give you the finger and dump you in my ignore list with all the other junior quislings.

And then you can whine to a jury like the pathetic authoritarian spoiled brat that you are, and explain how I'm the bad guy that makes DU suck, rather than you and your fellow 50-centers.

Because you're never going to convince people like me that Snowden's the horrible person you say he is, and you get paid not to be convinced by people like me.

Goodbye.

[railsback]

157. Manning deserves what he's getting

As should probably Snowden for telling China how we spy on them. Its not like they didn't know we were spying on them, they just now have an apparatus to zero in on. Awesome. I'm sure you're happy for China, Russia, and all the other countries, too. They, of course, will stop spying on us now.

[RobertEarl]

4. Screw the mainstream media

WE are the media.

This whole issue is about who owns your personal info.

The government claims that they alone own whatever info it can collect about you and me.

Snowden says that is not so. He says it is your info and you have the right to know how it is collected and what is being done with that information.

[randome]

9. Snowden claims that's what the government does.

But he offers no evidence to back it up.

During the Q&A, he changed what he meant by 'direct access'. Now it turns out he didn't mean tapping into the Internet, just someone looking at the phone metadata.

I agree that maybe better controls can be put on that kind of access but it's nothing at all like his claim that the NSA can watch our thoughts form as we type.

The guy went to an enormous amount of trouble, and probably ruined his life, for no good reason.

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[flamingdem]

11. +1

:grumpy cat:

[RobertEarl]

17. Prove it

C'mon, be a hero.

Prove that they can't tap every electronic communication you make. You'll be a hero.

But you can't be a hero, because the truth is they can tap everything.

[randome]

31. I'm not about to attempt to prove a negative.

If Snowden had all this unfettered access he claims, why not show us something?

Sure, the NSA could be watching my thoughts form as I type, as Snowden claimed. They could be downloading the entire Internet on a daily basis.

But I am no more worried about that than I am that kangaroos are about to fly out of my butt and start zapping the world with laser eye-beams.

Now if someone wanted to show me evidence that this is possible, I'd listen. Snowden even walked back his claim that the NSA has 'direct access' to every Internet provider. He did himself no favors with this Q&A.

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[RobertEarl]

36. Not very heroic of you

All the evidence says that they can download whatever they want.

Just because you don't realize that does not mean they can't.

Reading your words we see and you go off into fantasy land about your butt, kangaroos, and laser beams. No wonder you can't be a hero.

Snowden, however, is a hero.

[JDPriestly]

78. There are a lot of people out their on tranquillizers who never

worry about anything. That does not surprise me. The German people did not worry about Hitler either. They paid for it dearly.

A government that spends so much energy on surveillance of its own people and so little on their healthcare and education is headed for trouble. That's simply how life works.

Imagine parents who spend a lot of money on a home security system and let their children grow up without education. That is the situation in the US. And many of those who aren't worried about this surveillance are among those with too little knowledge of history and the world to comprehend what this kind of surveillance means for future generations.

The ignorance and willingness to be treated like dirt even among some on DU is just astounding.

[JimDandy]

114. +1000 n/t

[Blue State Bandit]

35. It's up to Snowden to prove it. When he shows these programs targeting Occupy Protesters...

and not just claim that it's "possible" I'll be behind him 110%. But he's not doing that.

His whole premise for outing the NSA was, in his words, because it violated Americans' civil liberties. But all I hear about is China this and foreign allies that. Then, he runs to China, a country that has been shipping infected USB drives to the US for over a decade and stealing everything from Movies to Advances Weapons designs.

Show the NSA using their programs to go after "Occupy Wall Street" and he will earn my respect. Till then, he's no better in my book that the plain-clothed cops that infiltrated OWS to start fights.

[RobertEarl]

38. No. It is not up to Snowden.

It is up to you to find out what your government is doing. It is your right to know.

What the government is doing is keeping it a secret.

I ask you: Do you think the NSA is not capable of going after Occupy?

Snowden told you they can and are. Have an answer to that simple question?

[Blue State Bandit]

44. When and where did he "show" NSA going after OSW? I am fully convinces of the technical capability..

I know a couple of 8th graders who have similar "capabilities".

My problem is that you, and many others here use that term "Government" with scorn equal to what I would find on RedState.

My problem with this is not the US government having these "capabilities", but that the private sector (read Corporate Persons) has access to this. It's that those with access are not sworn law enforcement or military service members.

Again, when he puts out transcripts of convos between elements of OSW, I will reconsider. Untill then, he can STFU.

P.S. If you don't want someone accessing your network, close it.

[RobertEarl]

50. Convinced?

Then that is a yes to the question?

You claim, that I use the word government in scorn. Like you see on redstate. What is that, a con website?

But if they too have a scorn of the government collecting info about me, and keeping it a secret, then it seems they are more interested in your rights than you are?

Maybe they realize that if you are spied on and they allow such, that they can't complain when the secret government spies on them?

Does it not concern you that the government can secretly spy on you? And after gathering all that info, can do as they please: say put you on a list of some kind? Really, does that make you feel safe?

[Blue State Bandit]

64. Nice round robin sir. But you don't get to claim such a win here.

"But if they too have a scorn of the government collecting info about me, and keeping it a secret, then it seems they are more interested in your rights than you are?"

That's called social security, the census, and taxes. That's kinda what Government has been doing for centuries now and what RedStaters call "Gubment all in my Biz". And I'm sure they ave no problem with this because it is pure disaster capitalism.

I never said I was comfortable with such a program, and I'm sure it will be flagrantly abused under it's current configuration (in the hands of a private military contractor), but this is not Snowden's argument. He claimed illegal actions against Americans. Show me this.

And again. When such information is abused, people should go to jail. But I don't remember China being covered by the Bill of Rights.

[JDPriestly]

83. The program is a violation of the Constitution which is the highest

law of the land.

This massive collection of a database chills many of our rights including our First Amendment rights. It also chills our right to counsel and our right to confront the witnesses against us in a criminal trial among other things.

U.S. Constitution


Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/first_amendment

If they know they are under surveillance, people will watch what they say, the press will watch who they talk to and what they print, and people will not have the freedom of association to exercise their right to "peaceably . . . assemble."

That this procedure chills our basic rights is a violation of the Constitution.

[Blue State Bandit]

91. Agreed.

They can survey the comments that I post. They can track my phone, that has GPS, and they can watch me walk through town.
But without probable cause of a crime, they can not act to restrict, or restrain me.

Someone show me transcripts of illegally obtained phone conversations and I will be pissed.

Until then. I know my rights, and the limitations on privacy/secrecy that reality presents.

Come to think of it, even the NSA can't keep everything private/secret.

[reusrename]

101. He has proven it. It's very simple really. No one is really disputing it anymore, either.

The main revelation of his coming forward seems to be the bit about analysts being able to access and read individual emails or listen in on individual phone conversations. Everyone seems to be agreeing to the following facts, which were unclear before the Snowden revelations:

Yes, they do need a separate warrant.

Yes. the analyst can access the phone calls without first getting a warrant.

The FISA law allows 72 hours after the fact to seek the warrant.

So, the truth is, the analyst has access, on his own, if he is verbally authorized to do so by either the Attorney General or the Director of National Intelligence.

That is the law, AFAICT.

James "least untruthful answer" Clapper testified falsely to front of Congress that these were not the facts, and he is the only one trying take back his words.

[Blue State Bandit]

108. Proof of NSA transcripts of US citizens

organizing protests? Liberal/Teabagger planning conferences?

Or the capability.

I don't want this program to exist, but not because I distrust Obama. And only secondary to whom eventually follows him. I'm more concerned about the private organizations having/selling access to this data.

[reusrename]

109. I think he has proved his main point about the analysts being able to listen in on us.

As to what they are doing with this capability, I suspect more is to come. Folks in the know say this is just the tip of the iceberg.

[JDPriestly]

115. Hong Kong is China but also not China. It's kind of in a gray

zone between China and the rest of the world.

[Progressive dog]

58. +1

[eridani]

97. Metadate is ever so trivial!

If I know that you called a suicide hotline and didn't listen to the actual conversation, I just don't have the vaguest idea what you talked about.

[Thinkingabout]

5. Snowden has opened his mouth and now there is investigations into every aspect of his life. He

claims he wants to tell about NSA data collection, now his life is being outed, guess he doesn't like the tell all after all. Now we have a cause to expose him for what he is.

[RobertEarl]

8. Think about it

You need to right here, right now, expose yourself.

Why don't you? What are you afraid of?

[morningfog]

12. What does "what he is" (whatever the hell you think that is),

have to do with the NSA data-mining? What does it have to do with the possibility that there is warrantless access of content as well? What does it have to do with the US spying on allies? What does it have to do with the lies that have been told to keep this from us?

[Thinkingabout]

49. What do you mean by warrantless access, are you following this story? Read the Patriot Act and know

all about FISA court. Did Snowden tell you it was warrantless? If he did this information may be flowed. If the cause you fight for is against warrantless collection then the cause has been answered, now they get a warrant. It's over cause satisfied.

[morningfog]

56. Mueller suggested warrantless access. That is why I said

"possibly." Are you following this story?

You failed to answer any of my questions on the relevance of "what Snowden is" with respect to the government's actions.

[Thinkingabout]

82. Snowden is a criminal and investigations are on going, charges will be following.

A suggestion by Mueller is such, just a suggestion.

[morningfog]

84. You have still not said why Snowden is relevant

to the discussion of government acts and policies.

[reusrename]

104. There are several problems with the warrants.

The warrants aren't being sought until after the calls are listened to/emails are read.

The analysts can listen in on whatever they want, they do have that discretion.

Since these are blanket type warrants, they don't meet the probable cause standard.

The FISA court has ruled some of this behavior (we aren't allowed to know what, exactly) unconstitutional and the case and the decision has been sealed from the people.

Secret courts are not authorized under the Constitution.

[zeemike]

47. That is the creepiest thing I have heard to date on this.

It is something I would expect to hear from some guard in a torture camp or something....someone who enjoys their work.

[Thinkingabout]

51. I get the picture, be watching your back, they collect every stroke of the keyboard and they collect

your phone calls, upside down huh.

[JDPriestly]

86. I would like to see everyone who thinks it is fun and fair to expose

the lives of whistleblowers and other dissidents who are disapproved of by the government post their names so that we can look in the voter registration files and make sure they are really Democrats. Because I have a reasonable suspicion that some of them are not and that they just post on DU because they like to get attention and cause what they think is "trouble" and maybe also because they really don't care about much of anything and have nothing better to do.

[bobduca]

107. Please post your browser history for the past 6 months

those with nothing to hide please reply to this subthread, or risk being branded a COWARD by a random stranger on the internet!

[ucrdem]

7. So they were saving pole-dancer for the grand finale.

Nice strategery.

[Cali_Democrat]

13. I'm not sure what the hell he's talking about

The mainstream media has covered his allegations extensively. From PRISM to the phone record collection.

For him to claim the media has very little interest in this is ridiculous.

It's appears as though he's inventing his own reality.

[ucrdem]

18. I'm waiting to see the dog.

There's gotta be a dog.

[Cha]

81. But, it plays well with the

St Leaker Snowden is such a bleedin' Martyr, crowd.

[JI7]

128. he is playing to a certain crowd

[JEB]

16. The mainstream media (and even a few DUers) are running away from the truth.

The way to avoid the obvious truth is to attack the truth teller. Oldest trick in the book.

[markiv]

43. disturbingly common on DU

this is often more a place of personalities and teams, than issues and ideas

the latter promotes thinking, the former shuts it down

[JDPriestly]

87. Right.

[NightWatcher]

19. When someone makes fantastic claims, you want to check their veracity

Claiming to have access to everyone's calls and information is a spectacular claim for someone with a GED who washed out if the military, and who's timetables don't match up with records.

If you claim something, people want to check you and it out, especially when you make spectacular claims.

[October]

22. Yes, many of us are waiting rather than jumping on the proverbial bandwagon.

There are many more DU'ers attacking people who dare to post or question anything.

It doesn't mean we don't believe or support Snowden, it means we are waiting to see what comes out of all of these allegations.

Watergate was a slow drip, as I recall. It took time and it was given time to develop. In this 24/7 news cycle with splashy headlines, we need to let the truth come out.

Just MHO.

[JackRiddler]

24. Fantastic claims! Unprecedented! Unverifiable!

Funny thing is that other members of the Shut Up Chorus push the line that this is all old news, what's the big deal, we already heard it six years ago. Have you done that one yet or do you prefer to remain consistent in your shit slinging?

3 NSA veterans speak out on whistle-blower: We told you so (excellent information)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023030479

By the way, re: GED, etc. Your class hatred is showing.

PS - Given what the US military actually does most of the time, "washed out of the military" should be one of its highest honors.

[LondonReign2]

25. What do you think of the claims of Drake, Binney, and Wiebe?

They have also blown the whistle on the NSA

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023030479

[Maedhros]

62. Let's run a tally

The Guardian reports on the NSA Surveillance program:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/10/nsa-spying-scandal-what-we-have-learned

Which is corroborated by three other news organizations:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/us-surveillance-architecture-includes-collection-of-revealing-internet-phone-metadata/2013/06/15/e9bf004a-d511-11e2-b05f-3ea3f0e7bb5a_story.html

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-06-14/u-s-agencies-said-to-swap-data-with-thousands-of-firms.html

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/secret-prism-success-even-bigger-data-seizure

The Director of National Intelligence admits the surveillance took place and, at least on one occasion, violated the 4th Amendment:

http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20120720/17450619780/feds-wait-until-late-friday-to-admit-that-yeah-they-ignored-4th-amendment.shtml

Which means that Clapper most definitely lied to Congress:

http://www.salon.com/2013/06/12/james_clapper_must_go/

Mother Jones reports that an 86-page court ruling “determined that the government had violated the spirit of federal surveillance laws and engaged in unconstitutional spying.”:

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/06/justice-department-electronic-frontier-foundation-fisa-court-opinion

All in addition to the three other whistleblowers who have come forward (see LondonReign2's link).

Hard to shrug that off with a few sneers and a ROFL emoticon.

[LondonReign2]

75. Thank you

Very handy summary

[JDPriestly]

88. Not if that someone is a computer whiz whose job is to

repair and maintain the computer systems for the companies that are doing the eavesdropping. Not at all. It doesn't take a PhD to be able to figure out how to hack into the internet if you get a lot of help and the keys to the system.

The guy is one of the systems managers for one of the companies doing the spying. I believe he probably could go into the system and pretty much take out what he wished. And he could do it for others too.

Computers have created a new world.

[arely staircase]

30. traitor says what?

nt

[Life Long Dem]

34. The media

John Cusack wrote,

Mika Brzezinski on MSNBC suggests that Glenn Greenwald's coverage was "misleading" and said he was too "close to the story." Snowden was no whistleblower, and Glenn was no journalist she suggests.

Jeffrey Toobin, at the New Yorker, calls Snowden "a grandiose narcissist who deserves to be in prison."

Another journalist, Willard Foxton, asserted that Glenn Greenwald amounted to the leader of a "creepy cult."

David Brooks of the New York Times accuses Snowden- not the Gov--of betraying everything from the Constitution to all American privacy ...

Michael Grunwald of TIME seems to suggest that that if you are against the NSA spying program you want to make America less safe.

Then there's Richard Cohen at the Washington Post, who as Gawker points out, almost seems to be arguing that a journalist's job is to keep government secrets not actually report on them.

The government's reaction has been even worse. Senators have called Snowden a "traitor," the authorities claim they're going to treat his case as espionage. Rep. Peter King outrageously called for the prosecution of Glenn Greenwald for exercising his basic First Amendment rights. Attacks like this are precisely the reason I joined the Freedom of the Press Foundation board (where Glenn Greenwald and Laura Poitras also serve as board members)

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/john-cusack/snowden-principle_b_3441237.html

[Enthusiast]

131. I'm with John........nt

[Coyotl]

37. Everyone, go check out my pole-dancing girlfriend and what I said when I was seventeen!

Maybe he should call attention to what really matters, and not mimic what he bemoans. He protesteth too much.

[ucrdem]

41. He mentioned his girl-friend?!?

Oh for shame !!

[riqster]

42. I'm with the "show me" camp.

PowerPoints are not proof of the capabilities he's alleging. Show me some actual program output: it would have been easy for him to produce. The fact that he has not shown, say, a screenshot of what he viewed via his "authorities", even one that has been redacted, diminishes the credibility.

Ellsberg, by contrast, laid the facts and the supporting info on the table straight away.

Talk is cheap. Show us something.

[usGovOwesUs3Trillion]

48. Authentic TOP SECRET documents aren't enough for sophists

But fortunately it is for courts and the rest of the reality based community.

[riqster]

67. Sophist, Schmophist.

All I'm asking for is a single screenshot showing me that he DID what he CLAIMED to do.

Ellsberg documented everything he said. This cat, not so much.

[George II]

53. Snowden, why aren't you here telling your story first hand?

[JackRiddler]

54. Is this a joke post?

Snowden, why aren't you here in some hellish solitary confinement for the next three years before you are trotted out as the Face of Evil for a kangaroo court to sentence, "telling your story first hand"? Apparently, the story that George II wants (are you missing a I, by the way) is SILENCE.

By the way, it's 2013 and there's an Internet. #Snowden is telling his story first hand.

[George II]

117. He's the altruistic martyr, isn't he?

[JackRiddler]

130. I don't get the impression you're the least bit...

interested in this story. Do be well.

[backscatter712]

143. This. Snowden ain't stupid. n/t

[Summer Hathaway]

55. The MSM is more interested

in trivial nonsense than actual news?

Did he figure this out all by himself? That kind of insight is pretty damned impressive!

[JackRiddler]

57. Not everything that's true needs to be new.

Should one not make this observation?

Should one just surrender and die already, since It Is What It Is and Nothing Will Ever Change?

Maybe you should be watching the Kardashians after all?

[Summer Hathaway]

66. I find the current state of the MSM 'news'

to be on a par with the Kardashians. That's why I watch neither.

[michigandem58]

59. "Mainstream media" = right wing terminology

Wake up people.

[Fumesucker]

120. Nope, the wingnuts call it "The Liberal Media"

Mainstream Media or M$M is very common parlance on DU.

[midnight]

61. Gossip sells... and distracts....

[nolabels]

137. It also might depend if his girlfriend is really that hot

Or did they break up, pole dancers and damn gossip, it is all so hard to keep up with

[WillyT]

63. K & R !!!

[xchrom]

69. Du rec. Nt

[fasttense]

70. He's a man that couldn't be bought

and has principles. That's what really bothers those TPB. Most of the destruction of our democracy has been cause by men and women who sell it off little by little to satisfy their greed.

Snowden can NOT be bought off and it scares the handful of uber rich people who buy off our governments and fear that the value of their wealth will drop. Because if every one stood up for their principles their would be little corruption and rich men would have little power.

[JI7]

71. oh course the media sucks, now why not tell us what about what he claims is so important

[reflection]

74. Proud to be the 100th rec.

Regardless of Snowden's status, the assessment of the media is spot on.

[99Forever]

77. The "mainsteam media" is TPTB's lapdog, and...

... not worth the time tell them to go eff themselves.

[jmowreader]

85. I'm interested in how you were able to get out of a SCIF with top-secret documents

SCIF means "sensitive compartmented information facility." To say they are heavily guarded is an understatement. There are three strands of chain-link fence around them, the tallest fence you can buy, with barbed wire atop each. There are armed guards walking between the strands. It's not electrified so the guards won't get killed, but I think it was tried once. There are motion sensors on the fence, though. There is one passage through the fences, and it's got armed guards manning it. There are cameras. There is a security checkpoint before you enter the building, and it's got armed guards, metal detectors, X-ray machines, people who search all your bags on entry and exit...and, occasionally, you get frisked when entering or exiting. You can't bring a fucking Furby in those places. You can't bring a cell phone. If you brought a book along to read on the bus, the guards would flip through it to be sure there weren't any little pieces of paper stuck between the pages. And you're not supposed to be able to bring a CD, a tape, your calculator, some film or anything like that. (You know how checkbooks come with calculators in them sometimes? The MPs at my site would look in people's checkbooks to make sure there were no calculators in them.) So I am really wondering how Bradley Manning and Edward Snowden got out of their buildings with all this classified information. More to the point, how did they copy this stuff onto removable media without anyone noticing?

[JackRiddler]

129. I am incredibly uninterested!

He got it out, good for him.

You gonna deal with what's actually in there, or worry about how the National Security State that eats all possibility of a humane future fucked up?

Stop identifying with the authoritarian state and asking its questions. Recognize that the real enemies of the American people are right here at home.

[jmowreader]

148. I can deal with two things at once

Having actually been a part of the national security state, my perspective is a bit different from yours.

From 1982 through 1994 I was in Army Intelligence. My first job was Signal Security Specialist. You would know it better as a wiretapper; we monitored DoD-owned phones and radios listening for security leaks. Then I became a Signals Intelligence Analyst and did...well, analysis. In regards to this Prism stuff, let's say that but for the grace of god go I.

There is a regulation called United States Signals Intelligence Directive 18. It was written right after Watergate, when they found out the Army Security Agency was spying on Americans.(The Army discharged everyone involved, pulled their clearances so they couldn't work in the intelligence apparatus again, and rolled all its MI forces into a new organization called the Intelligence and Security Command, led by the people who uncovered this in the first place) It's classified SECRET Handle Via COMINT Channels Only (yes, that is an actual classification--the paragraph marking is S-HVCCO) but you can feed "USSID 18" into your search bar and read it right now. It is the very first thing they teach you in MI school, and there is an annual requirement for every SIGINTer to receive no less than one hour's training on this directive. What USSID 18 says, is the United States SIGINT System is not allowed to spy on Americans.

When we learned Bush was spying on Americans I said they needed to stop doing this shit right now. There were other indications the US was spying on Americans and every time I said they needed to stop doing this shit right now. And when this came out I said the same thing. Not only is it totally invasive to Americans' privacy, it doesn't even work. The Dick can run around all day talking about how this coulda prevented 9/11 and Fort Meade can talk about how they stopped 30 plots with this, and I say you could have gotten just as far, or farther, with non-USSID 18-violating collection methods. For instance, where the hell was the government when FlightSafety International reported there were foreign nationals who wanted to learn to fly airliners but not to land them?

Furthermore, I would hazard a guess that every old-school USSID 18-believing SIGINTer is aghast at this, just as we were when the warrantless wiretapping news hit. Simply put, You Don't Do This. And it needs to stop. There is no reason for Americans to spy on Americans.

While we're at it, we need to end the drug war and we need to amend the Constitution to put the words "All persons covered by this Constitution have the right to privacy" because your modern conservative, who can't read, can't figure out that "secure in your papers and personal effects" is a grant of the right to privacy.

At the same time, I wonder what else Snowden walked out of the SCIFs he worked for. It is thoroughly possible that he took this data and released it to a journalist (we'll be charitable) in hopes that the resulting damage control will cause NSA's Special Security Office not to notice Snowden also walked out with information useful (and salable) to the Chinese, the North Koreans or a terror group. He fled to a communist country for a reason; if he wanted to go somewhere that values free speech he picked a curious place.

Having said all these things, I must wonder if Americans truly care about privacy anymore. Some of the people who are loudest on the anti-NSA thing are very prolific Facebook posters. Yes, I know you choose to put things on Facebook but some of the things people choose to post! Any decent foreign agent could piece together a very revealing portrait of this country simply by tapping into Zuckerberg's ad-serving routine or into Google AdSense.

Set that aside for now and return to my assertions:

Assertion One: America needs to stop spying on Americans.
Assertion Two: America's intelligence apparatus needs to quit letting secrets walk out the door in its agents' pockets. We won the Cold War with computers that used removable storage you couldn't conceal in a pocket; at the very least go back to PS/2 keyboards and mice, seal the USB ports with hotmelt glue to preclude the use of thumb drives, and prohibit carrying CDs into secure areas...remember, Bradley Manning got his data out by writing Lady Gaga's name on a blank CD and carrying it into the SCIF.

[Fire Walk With Me]

89. They attack the messenger when they can't discuss the message. n/t

[Gin]

152. Yep.... I agree.

[blue neen]

94. How do we know that it was even Snowden saying this today?

Snowden tells us not to trust our government, but we're supposed to unconditionally trust everything he may or may not say online.

[Vietnameravet]

102. Very good point!

[backscatter712]

144. I presume Glenn Greenwald knows.

But didn't you know, he's also on the Authoritarian Shitlist, and therefore Not To Be Trusted.

[blue neen]

159. Presume?

We are being told to not trust the government, but we are being led to believe everything a supposed Glenn Greenwald and a supposed Edward Snowden are supposedly saying.

This is one of the reasons people have questions about Snowden. They are real questions, and they are legitimate questions. It has nothing to do with Authoritarianism or Totalitarianism (as mentioned in another thread).

IMHO, that is one of the reasons I am a Democrat...because I like to ask questions and don't automatically believe everything I'm told, no matter who is saying it.

So, you can believe as you wish, and I can make up my mind as I wish.

[Octafish]

98. What's he think this is? A democracy?

L.O.L.

[alfie]

99. Is he surprised?

I would have expected this if I had done what he did...right or wrong...doesn't matter. He is now a public figure of his own making.

[warrprayer]

103. Whip it! K&R

[treestar]

111. If he cannot take the heat, he should not have done it

Everyone who thrusts themselves into the spotlight is subjected to this.

So are big hero is whining about that.

[ReRe]

119. K&R

Thanks a bunch, JackRiddler!

[JackRiddler]

134. ;-)= !!!

[avaistheone1]

121. k&r Snowden really speaks well.

I think he is solid person. The more I learn about him I believe he is a truth-teller and a whistle-blower.

I believe in our Constitution and our Bill of Rights. So far he has my support.
He is the only person who comes across as honest and likeable in this affair.

[idwiyo]

139. K&R

[Harmony Blue]

146. Snowden is a hero

[existentialist]

149. Indeed, it is possible to disagree, possibly even inteliigently disagree about Snowden's character

But Snowden's character is insignificant in comparison with the issues he has raised.

And Snowden is abosultely correct in his comment on the point.

[backscatter712]

161. I cannot agree with character assassination. Ever.

When we have a large group of people spreading the most vile smears possible, with zero evidence, or based on flimsy rumors, I say fuck that shit.

I'm sorry, but I can't be nice or civil to the dirty, rotten shitbags who think those sorts of tactics are OK.

[Rex]

162. The M$M is owned by the same people that own our govt.

Their paid for opinion/mouthpieces permeate the Interwebs.

[JackRiddler]

163. 209 recs! Thank you.