Charles Saatchi photographed in public clenching Nigella Lawson's neck 4 timees during an argument

[snagglepuss]

He calls it a playful tiff but by all appearances it looks like outright abuse. Onlookers at the restaurant said they were horrified by what they saw.

One witness said 'It was utterly shocking to watch. I have no doubt she was scared. It was horrific, really'

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2342922/Nigella-Lawson-Charles-Saatchi-says-row-playful-tiff-held-throat-emphasise-point.html#ixzz2WUrSlwXo
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

[Politicalboi]

1. And if he ends up killing her

He will plead not guilty, and the trial will be all about the victim. Seen it before. Why would she stay with a monster like that is amazing.

[snagglepuss]

5. An Australian DJ has sparked outrage asking women to boycott Lawsons's books

until she stands up to Saatchi. I don't see why people are so outraged by the DJ's comments. I think they are bang on.
snip

'It’s hard to look a the photos of Nigella Lawson, her eyes wide with panic, her husband Charles Saatchi’s hand wrapped around her throat, without feeling revulsion and disbelief,' she initially wrote. 'The ‘Domestic Goddess’ is not flirty and fun as fans of her cooking shows know her, but fearful.'

She went on to ask why Nigella then posted a 'picture of a buttered, toasted bagel on her official Twitter page, as though nothing else was on her mind but food' while the pictures of the apparent row were going viral online.


'That’s not the response we were after, Nigella,' she added. 'We think you are strong, beautiful and successful [... and] we don’t like to think of you cowering from a thug. A man so boldly abusive he had no qualms about attacking you in public.

'Nigella, like it or not, you’re a beacon for women from all walks of life. If you want us to buy your books and watch your shows on how to run our kitchens, then we need you to make a stand on domestic violence.'


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2343150/Australian-DJ-provokes-outrage-implying-people-boycott-Nigella-Lawsons-books-stands-husband-Saatchi-following-throttle-pictures.html#ixzz2WUwZDzjo
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[closeupready]

22. Gee, maybe because SHE is the victim here, and

her husband the aggressor; yet, the DJ is calling on the public to penalize HER.

[snagglepuss]

29. She is not going to the poor house if people stop buying her books but she could

end up dead if she doesn't get out. What is not open to debate is the fact that her children have already been profoundly damaged by witnessing her abuse. They are the real victims.

[BainsBane]

31. That's insane

That's as misogynistic as the batterer. WTF is wrong with people? Punish him. This culture despises women. Unfucking real.

[snagglepuss]

34. What proposed is a fucking boycott. It won't destroy her. It simply sends a message

that she needs to wake the fuck up.

[BainsBane]

36. punishing a victim is malicious

and shows a profound hatred for women. People like that are clueless about domestic violence and determined to compound the abuse. It's disgusting. It's like the school district that fired the woman who was a victim of domestic abuse. Misogynists always punish women because they despise us. They'll be contributing to the husbands defense fund next.

[closeupready]

39. Totally agree with you on this issue.

We may disagree on other things, but there is no way to mistake this for anything other than misogyny.

And in the case of the DJ, self-hatred.

[BainsBane]

41. misogyny is not perpetrated by men alone

Sadly, a great deal of it is internalized.

[snagglepuss]

42. Bullshit. Where's the punishment? No one is blaming her. And if I were you

I wouldn't be so quick to jump to conclusions. I grew up with an extremely violent and emotionally abusive father . He was so emotionally out of control he was denied a drivers license and this is going back decades when no one ever heard of road rage. I grew up with relatives who knew what was happening and looked the other way. I grew up with a mother who chose to stay. To say that my life was irrevocably destroyed by both parents is an understatement.

[BainsBane]

48. The DJ and everyone advocating for the boycott

There is a difference between looking the other way and punishing the victim. Why not call the police and have the batter arrested?

See this post: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3035002

and this

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3035035

I have personal experience with this too and know far more about it than I would like.

[redqueen]

51. My background is very similar to yours.

I put the blame where it belongs.

My mother was as much my father's victim as I was. Mothers are human - and it is unfair to expect that their minds react with any different psychology than any other human being's.

[snagglepuss]

57. No disagreement there but when others see what is happening they have a moral

obligation to speak up. When any sort of violence is in public, it becomes a public matter.

[redqueen]

60. I agree. There should be a heavy social price for abusers to pay.

They should be shamed.

But often they, too, are afraid of making things worse for the victim later on, in private. Too many of us know too well how the legal system fails to protect victims.

That is what really needs to change. We need victims to believe that they won't be put in even more danger if they do try to get away. Because that happens too damned much, and it is that fear that abusers use to control their victims, and to dissuade onlookers as well.

[chervilant]

76. A few things:

1) Fully 50% of survivors of relationship violence are killed after they escape from their abuser. You are spot on about this grim reality.

2) Survivors of relationship violence cite love and fear virtually equally as reasons they stay in a battering relationship. It's essential to remember that batterers present initially as the most charming, trustworthy, empathetic and loving partner a person could ever hope to meet, and survivors must work hard to understand the difference between the real person (the batterer) and the fake presenting persona (one's 'true love').

3) Helping survivors recognize the strength and courage they've used to survive in what is essentially a war zone with the life partner you should be able to trust is a critical reframing that empowers survivors, and prepares them for the tough decisions they'll have to make.

4) Relationship violence escalates over time, and happens more frequently. Survivors leave an average of seven times before they leave for good.

5) Friends might say "Just leave!" with a loving heart, but this is not what survivors need. They need for friends to actively listen and be supportive -- no matter how much we disagree.

[lapislzi]

54. I would like to say...

That I am sorry to learn of the terrible circumstances of your upbringing. I'm also sorry that your mother wasn't able, for whatever reason, to leave such a horrible man.

I survived abuse. I was able to leave. Not everyone can.

I wish you healing, snagglepuss. I understand that your comments are arising from a place of deep pain, and I am sorry.

[Number23]

69. Completely agree. The DJ has faced alot of backlash for her idiotic comments

Punishing Nigella for not volunteering to be the poster girl for domestic violence is indeed, punishing the victim.

[Skidmore]

49. The last time Australian DJs got involved in something,

someone died. Perhaps they should stick to playing music.

[closeupready]

56. Or stop trolling for DJ's in lobotomy clinics.

[3102Angel2013]

81. Charles Saatchi Profession bully and DV'er

Charles Saatchi is a serial DV'er, he used to bully his brother Lord Maurice Nathan Saatchi as well as non family, such as the pop impressario Pete Waterman and other innocent people, see the proof here http://archive.org/details/CharlesSaatchiProfessionalBully and more here http://archive.org/details/Httpwww.saatchi-gallery.co.ukNewScotlandYardsaatchiDirectorBlackmail and here

Saatchi takes advantage of his wealth and political influence to bully others and this should be stopped.

[redqueen]

7. I wish more psychologists would speak up more about this dynamic.

It is very disheartening to see victims of domestic violence become the targets for scorn for not responding the way people think they should.

[lapislzi]

13. +1

It is for Ms. Lawson to deal with the situation as she sees fit. We are not here to judge her, but, as advocates, to support her in whatever decision she feels she must make.

It's so easy when you're looking in from the outside. You have no idea what this woman is going through.

It breaks my heart when women I've counseled return to their abusers even though they know exactly what's in store. It breaks my heart, but IT AIN'T ABOUT ME, or my heartbreak, or my arguably messianic tendencies, or anything like that. It's about what this woman, in this situation, today, believes is necessary.

That's what support looks like, and it's difficult as hell.

[redqueen]

18. Thank you for spelling it out.

[snagglepuss]

32. Bullshit. I grew up with an emotionally abusive violent father and a mother

for her own reasons who chose to stay. I was profoundly traumatized and damaged. The children are the truly powerless victims in these scenerios and for their sakes Nigella needs to leave.

[lapislzi]

40. You can call bullshit all you like.

I am not disagreeing with you that witnessing and experiencing abuse is terribly traumatic and damaging, especially for the young.

I am not disagreeing with you that Ms. Lawson should leave her abusive relationship.

All I am saying is that it is not for you, or me, or anyone, to judge another person in that situation. You simply cannot. Your experience is not her experience and never will be. You hope that your good counsel, your example, your appeals to reason, will get through and she will make the decision on her own.

But if she doesn't do what YOU think she should do, are you going to withdraw your support? Are you going to heap scorn on her for being "stupid?" How does that help her?

You don't open your mouth until you know the shot. Period.

[snagglepuss]

45. Such advise pertains to those close to her. It is meaningless to the larger public.

Once abusive behavior is displayed in public then it becomes a public matter. If I were there I would have called the police and gone up to table and told Saatchi to stop. If that embarassed either of them then tough shit. Being witness to abuse is abuse.

[lapislzi]

50. Not disagreeing.

It is a criminal matter, but I doubt that you will see it prosecuted.

But you've changed the subject. The discussion was your point "she should leave the relationship." I agree with that. I also understand, intellectually, the many, many reasons why she may choose not to at this time. They might look like bad reasons to you and me.

But, you and I, not being on the inside of that relationship, don't know the full dynamic. What he's threatened her with. What he's threatened the children with. What he may have reduced her to, emotionally. What financial control he exerts. All these factors contribute to a decision that, to an outsider, makes no sense.

We are witness to a public manifestation of a severely dysfunctional relationship. It's seeing a photograph of an iceberg and saying it goes down 30, 40, 100 feet. You just don't know. You don't know the currents steering it, the temperature of the water, anything.

You and I can't prosecute this man, as much as we think he richly deserves to be in jail. Only Ms. Lawson can do that, by pressing charges. And that is a scary thing in and of itself, let me tell you.

Please try to get out of your own head and understand the compassion required to bear witness and support a survivor--no matter what.

Peace to you.

[BainsBane]

38. Do you see this misogynistic effort to punish Nigela

by an Australian radio show, the boycott that some are defending here? The hatred of women in Western culture really knows no bounds. It's as disgusting as the battery itself.

[closeupready]

43. Note also, A beats B; solution: B leaves. NOT A goes to jail.

NOT A is arrested. NOT A should be boycotted, or penalized.

Getting angry just thinking about it.

[BainsBane]

44. Me too

Also think though the message that sends to other women in Nigela's situation. Many women stay in abusive relationships because they have no way to support themselves if they leave. Nigela is not poor, but anything that threatens her livelihood also threatens her economic independence and ability to find a new home and support her children without her husband.

Also, the idea that Nigela is at fault only worsens the situation. Battered women are taught to believe the abuse is their fault. This boycott only reinforces that message. How they treat Nigela sends a message to the millions of women currently in abusive relationships.

[redqueen]

47. We are all raised in it.

Finding some way, any way, to take the focus off men so we can blame women is practically second nature.

[chervilant]

92. Ain't that the truth!

I find it most disheartening that so many women have internalized the misogyny inherent in our patriarchal society.

[Warpy]

61. Asking why she stays is just more victim blaming

Often women who live with their abusers are so gaslighted by these men that they don't see the throat grabbing (and worse) as assault and they certainly don't think of themselves as being worthy of better treatment.

I hope she still has friends who have hung in there despite the isolation that abuse generally includes and that those friends rub her nose in the photos and convince her that no one is bad enough to deserve that kind of treatment.

I shudder to think what happens in their home.

(And yes, I'm aware that a minority of abuse cases are done by women who gaslight, isolate and abuse male partners, so don't go there. This is about a specific dynamic)

[Bigmack]

2. Shucks.... that's just a little love play.....

[bullwinkle428]

3. Sounds like a total bully/control-freak. Hope his $$$ doesn't allow

him to slide when it comes to domestic violence charges, but I'm not holding my breath.

[msanthrope]

4. She needs a lawyer. Jeebus...she looks terrified. nt

[Tom Ripley]

6. He should say it was an installation

[redqueen]

8. Is that your attempt at making a joke? nt

[Tom Ripley]

62. No, a very short monograph

[cali]

10. hahaha. yeah, that's really funny. NOT

[Tom Ripley]

63. It was not meant to be funny; art is serious business.

[eissa]

9. She was abused by her mother

No wonder she appears to tolerate his abuse. What a monster. Hope she seeks some help and gets out of that toxic marriage. I have one of her cookbooks, and some of her recipes have been a real hit.

[madrchsod]

11. that boy needs to be tuned up....

[truebrit71]

30. ^^^This^^^

[Comrade Grumpy]

12. Who? And why should we care about some foreign celebrity bafflegab?

[redqueen]

16. You call choking a woman in public and reducing her to tears "bafflegab"?

Wait, I just noticed the username. Of course you do.

The OP is talking about domestic abuse.

[muriel_volestrangler]

17. You dismiss what may be marital abuse as 'bafflegab'?

That's appalling. Where can we start with you? We need to educate you in basic human feelings.

[Liberal_in_LA]

28. negative 5

[Comrade Grumpy]

53. There is plenty of domestic abuse right here.

It's a big world. I'm sure something bad happened to somebody in India, too, and probably Nigeria. I just don't get all involved in about becaus some scandal sheet published something.

[redqueen]

65. So because it was in a tabloid, it doesn't count and no one should care?

Or is it because other women have it worse that you think this one incident is undeserving of any attention?

[Lex]

78. minimizing domestic violence of anyone

is bullshit

[Sheldon Cooper]

14. Jesus christ.

A playfull tiff? That fucker had her by the throat repeatedly. And tweaked her nose, another method of humiliating and controlling someone. What a fucking asshole. Nigella get out while you can. Who the fuck is Charles Saatchi anyway?

[snagglepuss]

15. An art collector. Ten or so years ago he was in the news for including in

an art show a controversial piece from his substantial art collection entitled Virgin Mary Covered in Elephant Dung. The piece struck me as misogynistic, I think I nailed it.

[Bluenorthwest]

23. The name of that painting is The Holy Virgin Mary and you and Rudy are very wrong about

the nature of the work and the message it is intended to convey. It is a very African image in both the image and the way the image is built. It is not called 'Covered in Elephant Dung' and it does not depict anyone so covered. The dung is one of the mediums used, which is culturally meaningful as elephant dung is used as fuel and a component of housing in some places, among other things. While you say 'Oh, Euro nasty dirty dung is bad' others see it as a natural resource.
Not to mention the fact that Mary is famous for laying down in a a stable, home of animal dung, to give birth to the Big Deal Child.
How people miss the point of that art is beyond me. Have you ever seen it? Google images 'Chris Ofili holy virgin mary' take a look.

[snagglepuss]

35. If I misquoted the title its that I was going from memory. The title though is beside the point.

The association of women with shit, whether the image is covered in it or made from it is imo misogynistic.

[Tom Ripley]

64. +1

[Bluenorthwest]

19. A major force in advertising, founder of Saatchi and Saatchi, builder of Thatcher's campaign

and that of her Party, also an art collector with a famous gallery. Old man, 20+ years on Nigella. Richer than hell. Right wing.

[muriel_volestrangler]

20. As well as an art collector as mentioned above, a former major figure in world advertising

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saatchi_%26_Saatchi

At its peak in 1988, the business made profits of about $200 million a year.

[polly7]

21. and in another photo, covered her mouth.

She should have bit him. But then it probably would have turned into an even more playful smack in the face.

[lapislzi]

24. Deny, minimize, gaslight.

Whatever you can get away with as an abuser. Insiders and outsiders alike will be lied to outright. If the abused partner has the audacity to challenge you, make sure that she knows she's crazy and imagined the whole thing.

I actually (this is true) at one point begged my abuser to hit me again to prove that "I could take it." I won't go into the brutal detail of how he reduced me to that state, but over the course of years, a successful, talented, intelligent person can be reduced to the status of a non-person.

Who the fuck is Charles Saatchi? He is an abuser and he should be in jail.

[Arkansas Granny]

25. If he does this in public, who knows what kind of abuse she suffers in private.

But, he says he was just playing, so it must be OK. Just move along, folks, nothing to see here.

[Liberal_in_LA]

26. I almost posted this yesterday. Thanks for starting the discussion about it

horrifying

[Liberal_in_LA]

27. playful tiff my ass

[yellerpup]

58. Not the first time this has happened.

I'm sure this scenario has played out many times in private. She must wonder if he's willing to kill her in public. He is a threatening individual.

[okaawhatever]

33. I read earlier she was seen with a suitcase leaving her home. nt

[redqueen]

66. Good for her.

Now let's hope he leaves her alone.

[JI7]

37. i was hoping it was not what it looked like , but they say she has left and taken the kids

with her to some other place.

[RebelOne]

71. Who is "they"? n/t

[JI7]

72. some news report

can't remember which but it was on TV

[ZRT2209]

46. put that ******* in prison already

[LittleBlue]

52. In a restaurant of all places, what a brazen goon

Playful, eh? Her tears make that claim ludicrous.

Find a decent guy, Nigella.

[Zoeisright]

55. That is horrifying.

I love Nigella's shows and have them all on DVR. I wish she'd leave that piece of shit. But punishing her by not buying her books is fucking stupid.

[boomer55]

59. I feel lucky. I have no idea who either of these ppl are

[alp227]

67. Sadly modern society is full of ignorant half wits who believe women LIE about abuse.

The Internet is full of misinformation websites that spread the belief that women make false accusations of rape or domestic violence out of "MISANDRY" or to extort money from men "gold digging" or just be evil and ruin men's lives or take away children in custody disputes. Their first instinct to stories like this? "Oh the bitch is lying she's trying to steal the man's money out get revenge for some BS"... never mind how this shit happens IN PUBLIC too! F THE PATRIARCHY.

[muriel_volestrangler]

68. Update: Saatchi has accepted a caution for assault

Updated at the Daily Mail link in the OP, and also on the BBC:

On Monday evening Scotland Yard said: "Officers from the Community Safety Unit at Westminster were aware of the Sunday People article which was published on Sunday 16 June and carried out an investigation.

"This afternoon, Monday 17 June, a 70-year-old man voluntarily attended a central London police station and accepted a caution for assault. "

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22935683

[Sheldon Cooper]

73. "accepted a caution"?

What's next? A sternly worded letter?

[muriel_volestrangler]

75. It would be significant in divorce proceedings, for example

He now has a police record. If she is unwilling to give evidence in court, a caution may well be as far as they can go.

[Honeycombe8]

70. So...which restaurant patron interceded and stopped it? No one, you say?

Isn't that interesting? Other patrons now are shocked, just shocked, they say, at this cruel and abusive behavior. She was definitely fearful, one patron said. And yet...no one thought it was a big enough deal to do anything, or even make a call to authorities? Interesting.

This is what mild abuse looks like. Her reaction is part of the reason he's doing those things. And she's having the right reaction, if she wants his behavior to continue.

He's responsible for his behavior. That's abuse...whenever you grab someone else's throat, pinch their nose, while having a heated argument. I mean,,,he wouldn't do that to a professional boxer, now, would he? That's because the boxer would DO something about it. And the boxer would know that's not "playful" behavior.

She is also responsible, though, for accepting the behavior and not doing something about it. We are all responsible for accepting or rejecting abusive behavior, sooner or later (once we're adults). Yeah, I know...posters will say I'm blaming the victim. No, I'm not. HE is responsible for his behavior, which is obvious by the photos is abusive. But that doesn't let her off the hook for playing the passive martyr instead of doing something about it. It is her decision, whether she accepts someone grabbing her throat. She accepts that, and he knows that. My guess is that he was overly controlling and easy to anger while they dated, too. Which must be what she wanted.

[Sheldon Cooper]

74. We teach people how to treat us.

I don't want to blame Nigella for her asshole husband's behavior. But unlike other victims, she has ample means to get her and her kids away from him. She is not dependent on his money. She needs to dump that loser and get on with her life.

[chervilant]

77. Survivors of relationship violence

are NOT "playing the passive martyr"! I encourage you to read about the dynamics of relationship violence before making judgmental assertions.

Try

The Mermaid and the Minotaur (Dinnerstein)

Beyond Power (French)

Ending the Violence (Thorne-Finch)

to start.

[Honeycombe8]

79. We will have to agree to disagree. I grew up in an abusive home.

I've had friends with this dynamic in their relationship, too.

They each play a role in the behavior. They each get something out of it. It didn't start during marriage, either. It started when they were dating.

If the passive one were to put a stop to it during dating, or not accept it...the relationship would end, and he would move on to someone who would accept it (unless they have to get married, like in the old days if she's pregnant). It is a vital ingredient in such an abusive relationship to have someone who will accept it.

What does she get out of it? I'm not sure, since I'm not like that. But from my observations and knowledge of the women I've known, they feel taken care of, more feminine, more secure in the knowledge that their man is a take-charge guy, not having to make decisions or control things themselves. And a big thing is not rocking the boat...it is of utmost concern not to tick him off or cause more hostility in the household. Confrontation (i.e., speaking the truth to the abuser) is not something that's done.

[chervilant]

80. I've been an advocate

for survivors of relationship violence for more than thirty years. I've created and facilitated peer support groups, and I get a lot of personal growth insight during group, having grown up in abuse and having married unfaithful, deceitful men twice (the first was an abuser).

I have learned that blaming and shaming wastes time and energy. I have learned that survivors have enormous reserves of courage and strength, and tend to be resourceful. I have learned that survivors who reach out for advocacy are ready to set boundaries, and offload any baggage that has made them vulnerable to abuse.

We work in group to erase the negative, delimiting mental tapes implanted by our abusers (and/or parents, sibs, friends, society). We work on trust, conflict resolution, and effective communication. We work on recognizing healthy, loving relationships.

We learn, most importantly, not to blame ourselves for our abuser's behavior, because no one "deserves" to be abused -- and survivors don't "ask" to be abused.

I have other resources I can share, if you're interested. (pm me -- confidentiality is an essential part of my advocacy).

[Honeycombe8]

82. As I said, I didn't blame her for his behavior. But she's not off the hook for her own behavior.

Each person is responsible for his/her own behavior. Him for acting like that. Her, for accepting it. And it started a looooong time before, in a smaller way. It got to the point where he felt perfectly comfortable grabbing her throat and squeezing her nose. And he knew she'd accept it. She sent that message a long time before then, in smaller ways.

The abuser needs someone who accepts abuse. They will move on, if they don't find it in one woman. I hope you point that out to them. That the abuse started in little ways while they dated, and how to avoid attracting that sort of man again. Tell them to observe how women who do NOT get with men like that...what those women do to avoid it, whether it's intentional avoidance or just by default.

[chervilant]

83. "Accepts abuse"

is a blaming and shaming -- and simplistic -- way to describe a survivor's role in a relationship marred by violence. It's similar to saying "she was wearing that miniskirt and sheer blouse -- she was just asking for it!"

Batterers initially present as charismatic, loving, trustworthy individuals. In group, we learn to accept that this person with whom we fell in love doesn't really exist, and we mourn the loss of this "loving partner" and the trust we had that we were getting honesty and love from someone who has become violent and dangerous. We learn to recognize "red flags." We 'unlearn' behaviors or expectations that make us vulnerable to abuse.

I encourage you to read Lenore Walker's "The Battered Woman," and Thorne-Finch (see above). You might also benefit from William Ryan's "Blaming the Victim."

[Honeycombe8]

84. As I said, I don't blame her for HIS behavior. But she is responsible for her OWN behavior.

Abusive relationships are a two-person dynamic. Each person plays a part. Each is reliant on the other to behave a certain way, for the abusive relationship to exist.

He's not abusive with everyone. Only with certain people.

She CHOSE him. He wasn't a stranger who burst into the house & beat her up. Something she did, something she CHOSE was in his manner, his behavior, that she WANTED. That some other women chose NOT to accept.

It's learning how to protect yourself against a storm. You're not responsible for the storm. But you are responsible for protecting yourself against it. If you keep finding yourself injured because of a tornado, while others don't...blame the tornado, but ALSO look at your actions to see if you're not protecting yourself well enough against it.

Get it? That's what women who CHOOSE abusive men need to learn. How not to choose such men.

Tell her to look at other women who do not choose such men, and to mimic what they do and accept and say, in the dating phase. There's a difference. Something in that woman's behavior lead her to accept the abusive or controlling behavior in the dating phase. Maybe low self-esteem, maybe a liking of the "manly" behavior...whatever. She needs to re-learn that.

If she gets rid of one abusive man, and survives, there is always another waiting 'round the corner. UNLESS SHE LEARNS TO AVOID SUCH MEN. Capiche? I knew you'd get it.

[chervilant]

86. Condescension in

online discussions ("Capiche," etc.) tells me a lot about the person with whom I'm 'debating.'

I do not need you to tell me how to advocate for survivors. Furthermore, I now realize that you have no interest in expanding your knowledge about this complex and pernicious problem.

I sincerely hope you aren't in a position to work with survivors, because you'd suck at it.

[Honeycombe8]

88. You are condescending. Attempting to "learn me" somethin'. When I GREW UP WITH ABUSE.

I have an opinion based on personal knowledge. It's as valid as yours or anyone else's. Don't take that "I'll teach her with my great knowledge" attitude with me. You do NOT have more knowledge than I do, or most others, about this subject.

If you are really wanting to help others, then you must teach THEM how to avoid the situation they got themselves into in the first place. If you hide your head in the sand and blame ONLY the abuser, then that doesn't help her go forward. SHE was HALF of the situation that many other women successfully avoided.

Capiche? (A very common word, meaning "Do you understand?&quot I didn't realize you had limited vocabulary, or I would've used smaller words.

[chervilant]

90. Oh, my goodness!

Sharing resources is trying to "learn" you something?! I sincerely doubt that you have any interest in learning anything about relationship violence, since you "grew up with abuse" and that has apparently made you an expert.

[lapislzi]

85. You are brilliant.

I wish more outsiders could absorb your thoughtful insights. You and I come from similar backgrounds: abused, who went on to counsel the survivors.

It is very, very difficult to persuade the well-meaning but ignorant who constantly refrain, "why doesn't she just leave?"

As if it were ever that easy and safe. I don't have statistics handy, but I know that most of the murders occur after the victim has left her abuser.

Thank you for speaking truth with eloquence.

[chervilant]

87. I appreciate your thoughtful post.

For my graduate thesis, I implemented a peer support group for undergraduate students, because I believed that high school and college students were experiencing relationship violence at levels similar to marital and conjugal partners--and very little research had been done regarding relationship violence in those populations.

I agree that helping the general population understand the dynamics of relationship violence is difficult and frustrating. Far too many go straight to 'blame and shame' mode, revealing a pitiable need to 'distance' themselves from this ubiquitous problem.

[Honeycombe8]

89. That's not the subject of the post she was responding to. Once she leaves, then what?

Unless she learns why she CHOSE an abuser in the first place, she is destined to repeat it. And unless she learns why she ACCEPTED it, she might encourage another to hurt her.

She needs to mimic those women who don't get into these situations. What do they do, when dating, that she does not? How do they react in that early instance when he's bully-like? It's these things that will help her avoid abuse in the future. If only she had learned those things BEFORE she chose an abuser to spend her life with. And yes, she chose an abuser. There are signs before you marry that he's a bully. His character is right there on his sleeve. Other women passed him by for that reason, but she did not.

This is after she gets out of the abusive situation, of course. But unless she learns from her mistakes, she is destined to repeat them. We all are.

Look for these statements in women you know (things I've heard):

When he throws dishes or food in anger...she weakly says, "Oh, Bob...." or "Bob, the children are asleep."
"I'd go there to see you, but he won't let me drive that far by myself."
"I wish I could go with Angie, but Bob won't let me see her any more. He doesn't think she's a good influence."
"I'd like to work part-time, but Bob wants me home to raise the children full time."
"I'd like to work, but Bob says he's the provider."
"I have to go. Bob will be home soon, and he has a fit if dinner's not on the table when he gets home."
"I wanted a one-story house, but Bob says the two-story is better for us, and the stairs will be good exercise for me."
"I want children, but Bob says it'll ruin my figure."

See the pattern? The marriage should be called, "All about Bob." These are the things similar to what I've heard from overly passive and/or abused women. Things that independent women, or women in happy marriages, don't say, usually. Bob is very controlling, and it will escalate, unless she quits acquiescing to his demands and cowtowing to his controlling behavior.

[chervilant]

91. Why are you so defensive,

and adamant about blaming survivors for "choosing" an abuser? Why do you believe that advocacy for survivors means avoiding any mention of personal responsibility, or failing to identify red flags? Have you participated in a support group wherein everyone sat on their pity pots and personal growth was vigorously avoided?

Relationship violence is a pervasive AND pernicious reality. Effective advocates often draw on personal experience, and share resources in hopes that survivors will learn how to identify loving, supportive potential partners. Advocates cannot "control" what survivors choose to take away from support groups -- or what fellow DUers take away from others' online observations.

I hope you have found ways to recover from your abuse. I hope you have found a loving, supportive partner.