What I've learned from the Snowden discussions.

[1-Old-Man]

When it comes to apologizing for Government overreach useful idiots are a dime a dozen.

[Turbineguy]

1. Sounds like we could use

a new scandal.

[RobertEarl]

2. That's gonna hurt

If they get down on their knees and ask for forgiveness... I'll forgive.

[99Forever]

3. Yep.

Cheaper than dirt.

[hfojvt]

4. it must be really hard to learn

when you already know it all.

[Fumesucker]

9. Those who think they know everything

Really annoy those of us who actually do know everything.

[libodem]

13. Yep

[sibelian]

18. I think the discussion probably isn't robust enough.

Maybe if we all make one or two more points it'll be a bit more discussion-y.

The truth is somewhere in the middle, next to the lies and the least untruth.

[Aerows]

28. Three sides to every story

Yours, mine and the truth.

[sibelian]

42. ...Aerows...

Please tell me that was satirical.

[Aerows]

47. LOL

Of course it wasn't.

I don't live in a world of black and white. I live in a world of grey. That said, I think this is a load of horseshit, spying on the American public. I also believe in digging the truth out of a problem, too. This is a problem for all of us, and I want to know.

So no, it wasn't satire, I truly believe that.

[Douglas Carpenter]

5. the part that bothers me is that these very same folks would be enraged about government overreach

IF there was a Republican in the White House right now. In other words they don't really believe in transparency in government. They just believe Republicans should be required to be transparent. They are no different than the Fox News gang in reverse.

[avaistheone1]

8. I am afraid so!

[magellan]

11. It explains what's happened to the party

...doesn't it?

[Skittles]

14. yes it does

[Aerows]

44. The lengths that some will go to

is incredible. Explain that the government is spying on you, and how, and I guess you just deserve an ass-kicking. It's amazing how far some will go to defend this just because a (D) is doing it.

[Skittles]

50. I don't believe it is just because of (D)

I believe it is specifically Obama (D)

[carolinayellowdog]

6. penny-a-liners

aka HACKS

[LondonReign2]

7. That would explain their volume of posts

[backscatter712]

30. In China, they're called Fifty-Centers.

That's apparently the going rate there.

[randome]

10. Progressive thought should reflect going wherever the evidence leads, no matter how uncomfortable.

Since you seem to have judged the evidence supplied by Snowden as acceptable, perhaps you can explain it to us how the NSA is downloading the Internet on a daily basis and is watching our thoughts form as we type.

Schematics, maybe? Diagrams? How does this magical system work?

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[zeemike]

16. And you judged it as unexceptable.

Because he was a high school drop out with a dancing girlfriend?....
Oh yes I forgot, the evidence was a power point presentation, and as we all know they are just lies and cannot be used as evidence...(there is a rule against that I guess)....at least that is what you say and I can't say because I have never been in the board room when one was given.

Someone needs to make a list of the acceptable and the unacceptable evidence so that we know ahead of time.

[randome]

29. I've never said anything about his education or girlfriend, other than the fact that she's hot.

I have no college degree and I've done quite well for myself in the IT field.

All the companies involved have confirmed that the 'direct access' bullet point on the PowerPoint slide does not allow the NSA to spy on the world

For Snowden to not even have this basic understanding of how it all works astonishes me.

As does the idea that he cannot furnish anything more than a PowerPoint slide. I doubt he had the access he claimed.

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[Aerows]

34. Well hello

Here roars in the IT expert.

[zeemike]

49. OK then....power point presentations are not evidence.

And I am sure there are other things that are not evidence too and will come up from time to time....they always do, as is normal, they will say "there is absolutely no evidence...none....zip....nada"....I believe that is the usual phrase....the one I have heard many times before...(it seems that they must say absolutely none to make it stick)

But glad to know that YOU know all about it...that gives me some comfort...I am guessing that you work for the NSA or a company that has a contract with them and that is how you know Snowden is full of shit.

[sabrina 1]

21. You're asking the wrong questions. As the President has confirmed, the NSA is constrained by

the law. And btw, was it you who didn't agree that the FISA Court had no jurisidiction over Domestic Data Collection? The president thankfully, has confirmed that also.

Those actually doing the Domestic Spying are the Security Contractors who are NOT constrained by the law as Congress and the NSA are. So they've farmed it out and can later say 'well, we didn't know they were doing this'. And they can say 'we are not the Government we are a private Corp and there is no law against what we are doing'. But there should be. Because Congress is awarding them billions of our dollars which DOES make them accountable.

And who provided the warrant we saw last week that supposedly made this all okay? The FISA Court cannot issue a warrant without probable cause (thanks for confirming this Mr. President) nor can they issue a warrant on domestic data collection (thanks again Mr. President for confirming this).

So, who issued that warrant? Do you know?

[randome]

24. The FISA court issued the warrant with review and approval by Congress and the executive branch.

If having all three branches of government involved in this process is not enough, what other kind of process would allay your concerns?

All I hear mostly on this issue is 'The government is bad!'

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[sabrina 1]

33. Glad you confirmed that as that is what I remembered, that the FISA Court issued a warrant

on Domestic Spying, which it cannot do. See even the President's latest confirmation on that.

Now people are even more confused. When the data 'collection and storing' was first exposed, the defense was 'they got a warrant from the FISA Court. People, like me eg, pointed out that the FISA Court is for Foreign Intel and that no court in the US could issue a warrant for a blanket domestic data 'collection and storing' program because, as the president again confirmed, thankfully, is against our laws.

I saw no denials of this domestic data collection and storing. I saw it acknowledged and defended with what you just tried to defend it with. THAT IS THE PROBLEM. They cannot get a Fisa Warrant to spy on the American people, not even to collect their phone numbers, calls, times of calls to STORE.

Do you get it now? The President does but he has not explained the WARRANT we saw.

[randome]

35. I don't consider 'storing' to be equivalent to 'spying'.

If you want to argue that point, go for it. But it seems that Snowden went to a hell of a lot of trouble to point this out.

If NSA did not have this data, Congress would immediately pass a law requiring telecoms to store it on their company servers. Then we would have dozens of possible hacking opportunities. Placing the data in one place -and having policies in place to prevent unauthorized access- makes it less likely that the data can be misused.

I'm sure many will want to argue that the NSA is already misusing the data but I don't see a problem so far.

It all boils down to Snowden showing us evidence of malfeasance. So far a PowerPoint slide and a legal warrant does not do it for me.

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[Aerows]

31. See, you started out reasonable

and then took a wrong turn at Albuquerque. That's usually a sign that people are trying to bullshit.

[randome]

36. It sounds to me like the Snowden myth is starting to wear thin on you, too.

I'm really not trying to 'convince' you or anyone of anything, I'm only pointing out where I see that Snowden's claims don't add up.

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font]
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[Aerows]

38. LMAO

Okay, IT expert-psychology person.

[KittyWampus]

39. Actually, the NSA has tapped into the undersea communications cables. So while DU'ers are talking

about Program A (Prism) there is a Program B which is so far nameless and intrusive to the extreme. And which goes back quite a long way.

[randome]

40. Ah! I'd forgotten about that.

That's a hell of a lot of cables to tap. I wonder why no one has noticed before now. And I wonder where they are storing all the porn.

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font]
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[Aerows]

48. IT expert

clearly you are one.

[polynomial]

15. Yikes

It is not easy to comprehend on the surface metadata with many of the current definitions. The real short sweet expression for metadata is “data about data”. Now what the heck does that mean?

A little deeper and some discuss metadata as simply a dictionary. Yes, simple gathering done electronically in patterns a collection of data about data. The best and interesting metadata compilation is the common Webster dictionary. A list of words with words to define the word. But many other things like origins of language, date created etc, and the position in grammar. Of which I am horrible at so don’t flame me.

For those that want an interesting discussion about Snowden leading to the reasons we all can discuss to ferret out what he did for how or what the ideas transpired we can safely understand how to characterized what he did as treason or what this metadata concept can be singled out as the new age of identity theft paid for by our taxes with the cover of national security to really collect marketing information about Americans.

However, just as some on this blog point out there are those parading around here pounding the base drum right in your ear or face book. Gay’s call it flaming each other. I call it nonsense rhetoric that is a basic Meta-da-da, or Meta la la, or Meta yo yo, which ever just is here to have a sense of togetherness not caring whether what is discussed like it or not. Did you get a laugh out that Huh?

From my view many a young person in our culture have a unique sense that flips or switches on that musketeer loyalty, to pull the Excalibur sword out, beg for the champion to surface, and defend that which is called by one a “Simple piece of paper”. The Constitution.

Here we have Snowden who actually does something. In this case perhaps he took the phrase “ask not what you country can do for you what can you do for your country” very seriously. So here is where we have a man on the tech squad point of defending the Constitution written two hundred years ago, perhaps more; however we should think that the electromagnetic spectrum that is use as if it was always here did not exist then. You who did you get that.

It’s like trying to fit a round peg of ideas that you can’t see into a square hole somewhere in space. The kicker is the mathematics involved is held close to a few. Likely one of the reasons why mathematics with in education is chosen by the Republican Wahhabi Tea Party as the category of selected educational needs to be discarded in society. Especially the departments of education or charge all that can be charged in interest to get more money from those that want an education.

There are different approaches to data in electronic form. Once you know how to transform data to this electronic form, ideas sail, in some cases, the eureka moment can be well received like Heisenberg’s matrix mechanics. Or, Kalman’s filter both that received the Nobel prize of the time. They both can compose and manipulate ones and zeros that will represent data.

Both used in simple systems like an electronic key for your car to advanced tracking systems in sophisticated fighter jets, or very interesting state of the art financial analysis algorithms. All this a very compelling way to profiteer via tax money under the disguise of national security without anyone knowing about it.

Except for those secret congressional people that have access to these programs then carry those to the private sector applied benchmarked in real time secrecy that could eventually wind up as what industry calls a trade secret. Oh yes to privatize is the thing to do without risk. Bet I got ya thinkin huh.

[elias7]

17. And I've learned that righteousness and arrogance is contagious

This thread is typical of the wink-wink, nudge-nudge garbage of those who make a lot of assumptions about those they disagree with.

[1-Old-Man]

19. What do you mean my make assumptions?

When a person makes bold statements in support of the Government saying that government surveillance is just fine with them and the Constitution and anyone who thinks it counts for anything in antiquated we do not call it an assumption to call them a useful idiot.

[KittyWampus]

41. Okay- while I support the Govt's ability to surveil with a warrant when necessary, I do not support

the Govt's ability to surveil without a warrant when not necessary.

Now, am I an idiot as described in your OP?

I'm curious.

[backscatter712]

27. I don't have to assume much.

I think I get a good appraisal of the character of those that participate in character assassination.

[arely staircase]

20. I've learned that some people are so desperate for a hero to worship they will

make a saint out of a guy who shares America's national security secrets with the totalitarian Chinese and authoritarian Russians.

[Aerows]

23. I'm sorry

Did you get hit in the head before replying to this thread? You are part of the contingent the OP is addressing.

[sabrina 1]

26. I've learned that people will make statements like the one you just made without a shred of evidence

So to correct that could you provide some evidence that contradicts Snowden's own statement that he has shared nothing with the Totalitarian Chinese or the Authoritarian Russians', that he is lying.

Btw, our Government shares quite a bit with those Totalitarian, Communist Authoritarian states, OVER OUR OBJECTIONS, certainly in the case of the Chinese. Why is it okay for our government to send our jobs to these places, to use their children for labor for profit, to share, who knows what with them, but it would not be okay for anyone else to do it?

But back to your claims. Is there some evidence of what you just said, and remember, Snowden has flatly denied those allegations, or are you just repeating the NSA talking points. You did see that memo, didn't you?

[arely staircase]

43. here you go

Snowden gave the Chinese the specific IP addresses that were being hacked by the US government and which of those hacks were still active.

http://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/article/1260306/edward-snowden-classified-us-data-shows-hong-kong-hacking-targets

Snowden let the Russians know the NSA was listening to their encrypted calls from London back to Moscow during the last G8 meeting.

http://theweek.com/article/index/245699/new-snowden-leak-nsa-britains-gchq-eavesdropped-on-foreign-leaders

[sibelian]

45. Well, no. It's not really about hero-worship of Snowden.

But I think you probably knew that.

[burnodo]

51. Desperate for a hero to worship

Would that apply to Barack Obama?

[arely staircase]

52. not in my case

can't speak for others. I have never called Obama a hero.

[burnodo]

54. I see

Of course

[arely staircase]

55. good.

nt

[Aerows]

22. K&R

And don't have much to say about it further.

EDIT: Maybe I did, because I had to tell the poster upthread that they were what was being discussed. I guess we can't help people unless we point out bad manners and bad behaviors.

[backscatter712]

25. K&R! Understatement of the year! n/t

[woo me with science]

32. I've learned that governments that are turning corporate and authoritarian

build a relentless, shameless propaganda machine to replace the free press they are destroying.

[Aerows]

37. To be honest

It's rather ridiculous to see people scrambling to pretend that they have IT credentials in the wake of this story. Some of us have been there for two decades, long before "Al Gore created the internet".

It's also fascinating to see who claims they have chops, too. I'm having a ball.

[UTUSN]

46. As one of the ones being broadbrushed (while not guilty of the slanted/loaded accusations)

- the slanted/loaded accusations being "apologizing for Government overreach" and "useful idiots" -


I didn't have to learn things from the SNOWDEN current topic, I learned them long ago within my own Democratic umbrella party: That there will always be factions and some of the factions will always consider themselves to be more pure, more holy, more all-angel than everybody else. Part of my Democratic psyche is idealism, but the hard knocks of life experience knock some cynical realism into one's whole, making idealism A PART not the WHOLE. In my Democratic coalition, the different groups each have their own top #1 and #2 agenda items but all of the groups coalesce around the general agenda items of equality and social justice. I learned to expect to be disappointed in cult-like adoration of human leaders, while still nostalgic for FDR, HST, and LBJ. I have a special love for my purist idealists, despite that (since I don't associate with wingnuts) I have been assailed more by various NADERites, Greens, and CHAVISTAs than by Wingnuts. I admired McGOVERN but knew he could never beat NIXON and I wrote him a letter telling him that and that the eye-on-the-ball was to beat NIXON and that I wished he would step aside and let somebody run who MIGHT beat NIXON. I wish I had kept his letter (whoever wrote it and autopenned it), saying he thought he had a good chance to win and hoped I would support him. I did support him, of course: I have supported every single Democratic nominee no matter what wing of the party the origin. I would have supported NADER if he ran as a Democrat. I stuck with Bill CLINTON thick and thin, despite that he put his selfish personal indulgences ahead of just working for our policy agenda items (too boring). After Hillary lost the primaries, I solidly supported OBAMA and now am a stronger supporter of his than his original fickle supporters.

Some of the pure propaganda rhetorical techniques my pure idealist compatriots have used against me:

* Name-calling: "useful idiots," DLC, authoritarian, talking points.

* ad hominem

* vituperative contempt and ridicule.

* broad brushing

* shunning, expulsion from the kewl group

* (ironically) practicing the opposite of free speech, free thought

* angel vs devil

* bogeyman-ing: "you agree with CHEENEE"


Actually, I guess I *am* a useful idiot: Useful for the Democratic coalition and therefore for any faction of it that might also take pleasure in slapping me upside the head.

[Denzil_DC]

56. Have you been called a "paid operative" as well as all those?

That seems to be another popular way to dismiss disagreement--you'll even see some of the "in" crowd sniggering knowingly to each other about it if you look at a few recent post and threads. Then in the next breath there may be a complaint about "smearing," which is ironic.

A while back it was just veiled insinuations that certain people were being paid to post here. Now it's totally open from some, and it's getting more frequent.

It makes DU suck, and it's beyond tired as a rhetorical trick.

[UTUSN]

57. mostly all broadbrush. but yeah the paid operative is another good one nt

[graham4anything]

53. That everything I said months ago about an 80-20 was spot on predicted by me, true.

same as in 2009 I forecast Jeb being the republican nominee against Hillary and people laughed at me.

the 50-50 is going to be history.
and it is thanks to President Obama NOT having any ego whatsoever which is making it happen.
It is absorbing the blows and losing an occasional battle in a long time war that will lead in total victory sooner, rather than later.
Wars take time to win. Battles in wars are lost.

imho