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Wed Jun 19, 2013, 11:39 PM

Regarding things from the south.

A lot of wonderful things come from the south. Country ham is one of my favorites. But it seems to me that we are missing one of the most important things in the south that should command our attention. Poor people.

http://www.cdc.gov/pcd/issues/2007/oct/07_0091.htm



Here on an unabashedly liberal website denigrating an entire region that has the largest number of poor people in the country smacks of some of the most blistering partisan hypocrisy imaginable. Liberals are supposed to champion the rights of the disadvantaged and oppressed. We are supposed to care about those who are ground to dust under the heel of powerful corporations owned by oligarchs. Well, here's the news. Those evil oligarchs are in blue states. If I'm not mistaken Wall Street is still in New York.

And before you start complaining that the people of the south are in this mess because they vote for Republicans, think on this. Blaming them for their poverty is a distinctly Libertarian strategy.

So rather than suggest the south leave the union, I suggest liberals get to work solving problems and more importantly, convincing the people of the south we have those solutions. I know, it's hard. Politics isn't easy. And whoever told you politics was a consumer product lied to you. And the he probably hailed from a blue state.

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Reply Regarding things from the south. (Original post)
rrneck Jun 2013 OP
ZombieHorde Jun 2013 #1
graham4anything Jun 2013 #2
madinmaryland Jun 2013 #42
graham4anything Jun 2013 #43
Blue_In_AK Jun 2013 #48
graham4anything Jun 2013 #53
Blue_In_AK Jun 2013 #68
Floyd_Gondolli Jun 2013 #50
madinmaryland Jun 2013 #57
graham4anything Jun 2013 #59
madinmaryland Jun 2013 #61
graham4anything Jun 2013 #62
madinmaryland Jun 2013 #67
southernyankeebelle Jun 2013 #79
rdharma Jun 2013 #3
rrneck Jun 2013 #4
rdharma Jun 2013 #6
rrneck Jun 2013 #7
rdharma Jun 2013 #9
rrneck Jun 2013 #8
rdharma Jun 2013 #10
rrneck Jun 2013 #12
WovenGems Jun 2013 #26
get the red out Jun 2013 #28
rdharma Jun 2013 #46
NYC_SKP Jun 2013 #5
Uncle Joe Jun 2013 #11
alittlelark Jun 2013 #13
Corruption Inc Jun 2013 #14
Dustlawyer Jun 2013 #15
liberal_at_heart Jun 2013 #16
Dawgs Jun 2013 #20
rrneck Jun 2013 #25
QC Jun 2013 #30
LuvNewcastle Jun 2013 #33
BainsBane Jun 2013 #17
rrneck Jun 2013 #23
ieoeja Jun 2013 #52
rrneck Jun 2013 #55
MannyGoldstein Jun 2013 #18
LuvNewcastle Jun 2013 #34
carolinayellowdog Jun 2013 #49
geek tragedy Jun 2013 #19
Dawgs Jun 2013 #21
geek tragedy Jun 2013 #22
rrneck Jun 2013 #24
Dawgs Jun 2013 #31
JustAnotherGen Jun 2013 #39
Texasgal Jun 2013 #66
JustAnotherGen Jun 2013 #27
rrneck Jun 2013 #29
JustAnotherGen Jun 2013 #32
rrneck Jun 2013 #37
JustAnotherGen Jun 2013 #38
rrneck Jun 2013 #40
JustAnotherGen Jun 2013 #41
rrneck Jun 2013 #47
ieoeja Jun 2013 #54
rrneck Jun 2013 #56
JustAnotherGen Jun 2013 #65
rrneck Jun 2013 #69
JustAnotherGen Jun 2013 #35
jwirr Jun 2013 #36
SoCalDem Jun 2013 #44
Bake Jun 2013 #45
Tuesday Afternoon Jun 2013 #51
Lunacee_2013 Jun 2013 #58
rrneck Jun 2013 #60
DonCoquixote Jun 2013 #63
rrneck Jun 2013 #64
carolinayellowdog Jun 2013 #70
MNBrewer Jun 2013 #71
Spitfire of ATJ Jun 2013 #72
MNBrewer Jun 2013 #74
Spitfire of ATJ Jun 2013 #78
KamaAina Jun 2013 #73
MNBrewer Jun 2013 #75
KamaAina Jun 2013 #76
MNBrewer Jun 2013 #77

Response to rrneck (Original post)

Wed Jun 19, 2013, 11:43 PM

1. People are people. nt

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Response to rrneck (Original post)

Wed Jun 19, 2013, 11:44 PM

2. In 2016 the vast majority of the country will vote for Hillary and will turn blue

 

rendering the obstructionist extremists totally obsolete in the voting booth.

The good people of those states do not like their draconian leaders any more than we do.

80-20 is coming.

and without the south, we never would have had Dr. King,and President Lyndon B. Johnson,
and today is the anniversary of the signing of the rights acts that Dr. King and President Johnson worked so hard to achieve with so many others.

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Response to graham4anything (Reply #2)

Thu Jun 20, 2013, 01:45 PM

42. Stop it. Just stop it! They will not vote for Hilary or any other democrat in the deep south.

You do remember that it was LBJ who said we would lose the south for at least a generation after the passage of the Civil rights legislation. It took a generation for the regressive south to convert to Republican Party and it is going to take another two generations for it to come back to anything that a Democrat can win.

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Response to madinmaryland (Reply #42)

Thu Jun 20, 2013, 02:04 PM

43. the generation is over.Women in record numbers will indeed vote for Hillary in the south.

 

and the demographic change is here and now.

I predict Hillary to win Texas, Arkansas, Oklahoma, Georgia, NC, SC, Arizona, among many others now red.

AND, possibly Tenn.

It shall be a landslide

ALL minorities are going to vote for the democratic party and Hillary in particular.

BTW, Ann Richards was from Texas and a democratic governor.
That wasn't all that long ago.

people are tired of the extremists

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Response to graham4anything (Reply #43)

Thu Jun 20, 2013, 05:05 PM

48. I am a woman.

I will not vote for Hillary unless she is absolutely the last choice.

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Response to Blue_In_AK (Reply #48)

Thu Jun 20, 2013, 05:13 PM

53. See, you will vote for her in a race vs. Jeb Bush(and I hope the same against anyone repub.)

 

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Response to graham4anything (Reply #53)

Thu Jun 20, 2013, 08:41 PM

68. But hopefully it will not be that choice.

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Response to graham4anything (Reply #43)

Thu Jun 20, 2013, 05:09 PM

50. I live in Oklahoma

 

Born and raised. And I admire Hillary. And will vote for her.

That said there's not a snowball's chance in hell she'd ever win this state's electoral votes. She would lose to a ham sandwich here, just as Obama would have. Her husband didn't even win here 20 years ago and the state is VASTLY more conservative now.

Her status as a woman is meaningless here as well. It means nothing as long as she has a (D) in front of her name.

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Response to graham4anything (Reply #43)

Thu Jun 20, 2013, 05:43 PM

57. It took a generation just to get to the point LBJ was talking about. We still have another

generation to go until we may actually be competitive in the southern state. It may actually be a whole fucking lot longer since the Roberts Courts made the Citizens United Decision.

In the meantime, can you stop bogarting and pass that joint around!

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Response to madinmaryland (Reply #57)

Thu Jun 20, 2013, 05:48 PM

59. If Dr. King and LBJ were as pessimistic, we would still be living in 1859

 

which is where BushPaulfamilyinc want to take the nation back to.

I simply do not understand the pessimism.

We are only one justice switched to being rid of the Nader Courts. (oops, mean the Nader courts).

oops
edit to change it to the Nader courts as I made an error and wrote the Nader Courts.

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Response to graham4anything (Reply #59)

Thu Jun 20, 2013, 05:54 PM

61. What the hell are you talking about. Wasn't it Abraham Lincoln that moved us into the post-1859

world? JFK and then LBJ took us into the post 1964 world. Two different situations.

I assume you were working very hard for Al Gore in 2000 to avoid the pResidency of W.

BTW, Hillary is just as much as a corporatist as her husband and Obama are. Won't see much of a change with her, as she would win the election with about 280 EV's.


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Response to madinmaryland (Reply #61)

Thu Jun 20, 2013, 06:09 PM

62. 500 plus electoral vote with 125 million popular votes you mean.

 

In 1992, I supported the ticket of Jerry Brown and Jesse Jackson in the primary.
In 1984 and 1988 I supported Jesse Jackson.

But Bush/Paul would take us back to 1859 if they were given the keys.

One switch on SCOTUS in the next few years of the 5, will give the democratic party the 5.
That is the biggest one vote of all.

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Response to graham4anything (Reply #62)

Thu Jun 20, 2013, 07:57 PM

67. You again provide an evenings worth of amusement...

I liked Jerry Brown in the 70's and 80's. The idea of electing a "reverend" scares the shit out of me. Not happening.

No one will ever get 500 or more EV's, unless the KOCH brothers tilt the voting machines.

And a Bush/Paul ticket elected would not take us back to 1859, but back to 1984 where the KOCK brothers run the world,

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Response to madinmaryland (Reply #42)

Fri Jun 21, 2013, 06:56 PM

79. I think many will vote for Hillary. My daughter-in-laws family are dems but they hate

 

blacks. They voted for Hillary in the primary but in the general election they voted for McCain. You can't reason with stupid, uneducated people who only worry about the color of people skin.

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Response to rrneck (Original post)

Wed Jun 19, 2013, 11:47 PM

3. Why is that, rrneck?

 

What are they doing wrong?

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Response to rdharma (Reply #3)

Wed Jun 19, 2013, 11:48 PM

4. Who is "they"? nt

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Response to rrneck (Reply #4)

Wed Jun 19, 2013, 11:52 PM

6. The red spots on your map.

 

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Response to rdharma (Reply #6)

Wed Jun 19, 2013, 11:53 PM

7. Concentrations of poverty. There's a link to the CDC. nt

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Response to rrneck (Reply #7)

Wed Jun 19, 2013, 11:55 PM

9. I know! nt

 

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Response to rdharma (Reply #3)

Wed Jun 19, 2013, 11:55 PM

8. A fine example of what I'm talking about.

Apparently you think "they" are doing something wrong. I addressed that in the OP. Why would you blame people for their own poverty?

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Response to rrneck (Reply #8)

Thu Jun 20, 2013, 12:02 AM

10. Huh?

 

OMG...... you're funny!

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Response to rdharma (Reply #10)

Thu Jun 20, 2013, 12:07 AM

12. Unfortunately, you're not. nt

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Response to rdharma (Reply #3)

Thu Jun 20, 2013, 10:28 AM

26. Right To Work

And other anti-labor moves. Business loves exploiting the poor and the south obliges.

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Response to WovenGems (Reply #26)

Thu Jun 20, 2013, 10:53 AM

28. This!!!!!

Politicians in the South have used certain rhetoric to attract people, then betrayed those same people by eliminating the chance for decent paying jobs.

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Response to WovenGems (Reply #26)

Thu Jun 20, 2013, 03:34 PM

46. Exactly!

 

"Right to Work" for NEXT TO NOTHING STATES.

That's not intended to be a slam on the South, folks. That's just the way it is and will remain until the people there wake up and stop voting against their own best interests!

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Response to rrneck (Original post)

Wed Jun 19, 2013, 11:51 PM

5. Recommended. (nt)

 

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Response to rrneck (Original post)

Thu Jun 20, 2013, 12:04 AM

11. One thing about FDR; in spite of his wealth he could empathize.

To my way of thinking one of his greatest accomplishments was creation of the TVA bringing electricity to an impoverished area long in the dark.

Thanks for the thread, rrneck.

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Response to rrneck (Original post)

Thu Jun 20, 2013, 12:47 AM

13. Just.... WOW

I had no idea it was that extreme.... yet still NM is blue.

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Response to rrneck (Original post)

Thu Jun 20, 2013, 02:04 AM

14. "get to work solving problems", OK I'll get right on that, LOL

 

Let's see, how about I start by changing all the "right to work" laws? Then, I'll make politics real easy since you say it isn't easy. Then, I'll make sure politics isn't a consumer product, whatever the heck that means.

Then, I'll go state by state in the South starting with Lousiana, and get all the oil companies to just move out and stop treating the workers and the environment so poorly. By the time that happens I'll probably be about 150 years old but by golly at least I got busy working on those solutions!

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Response to rrneck (Original post)

Thu Jun 20, 2013, 02:05 AM

15. +1,000!!! The poor are more likely to fall for the TV brainwashing which displaces their anger,

yes Fox and Rush Limpballs, I am talking about YOU! The super rich run this country and the poor are treated like wage slaves. They manipulate the average person to hate on the poor and blame them for all our (Society's) problems.

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Response to rrneck (Original post)

Thu Jun 20, 2013, 02:09 AM

16. the democratic party has abandoned poor people, and I wouldn't exactly call this a liberal website.

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Response to liberal_at_heart (Reply #16)

Thu Jun 20, 2013, 09:04 AM

20. You got that right.

 

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Response to liberal_at_heart (Reply #16)

Thu Jun 20, 2013, 10:23 AM

25. +1 nt

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Response to liberal_at_heart (Reply #16)

Thu Jun 20, 2013, 11:06 AM

30. Amen to both points. n/t

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Response to liberal_at_heart (Reply #16)

Thu Jun 20, 2013, 11:22 AM

33. Clinton and the Third Way threw the poor under the bus,

and Third Way Republican policies have created a lot more of us.

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Response to rrneck (Original post)

Thu Jun 20, 2013, 02:27 AM

17. That's how the GOP likes it

They like their states poor and the population armed. Then they focus on the evil gun grabbing socialist as the enemy and manage to keep reeling in the dough for the the wealthy view. Property over life, the American way.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #17)

Thu Jun 20, 2013, 10:21 AM

23. Blaming the GOP

is just shifting responsibility from you and the Democratic party to them. It's not significantly different from fundamentalist Christians finding evil everywhere they look, as long as it's not at themselves.

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Response to rrneck (Reply #23)

Thu Jun 20, 2013, 05:10 PM

52. So what are WE doing that causes poverty in the South?

 


Last time I looked, Right to Work was a Republican idea, not a Democratic one.

Dismantling education? Republican.

Crumbling infrastructure? Republican.

No minimum wage increase? Republican.

Shifting tax burderns to the states forcing them to compete by exempting mega-corporations from state taxes thus shifting tax burden to the people and smaller businesses? Republican.

Cutting federal income taxes forcing poorer states to pay more of their own way? Republican.

Your turn. Let's see that list of Democratic policies attacking the poor.

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Response to ieoeja (Reply #52)

Thu Jun 20, 2013, 05:30 PM

55. I don't have one.

I don't have a list of things that do all that much good either. The worst Democrat is certainly better than the best republican, but as I said downthread all the money seems to be concentrated in the bluest of states. If we were to actually help people, it seems to me that a bunch of that money will have to move south. Granted, most of the 1%ers live in blue states as well, and if it is done right we'll pick them like chickens. But there are a lot of upscale Democrats who know, or will find out, that if they actually walked the walk they'd do it with lighter pockets. And that's what causes weak support for social parity and center right representation in congress.

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Response to rrneck (Original post)

Thu Jun 20, 2013, 07:49 AM

18. I love Southerners

 

And want them to be part of my country.

But their politicians are destroying our country, and they can't or won't get rid of them.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Reply #18)

Thu Jun 20, 2013, 11:30 AM

34. We can't right now.

A lot of us would love to get rid of them and we hate them more than anyone, but we just don't have the numbers. Liberal southerners tend to leave the South when they're able to, and that leaves the rest of us holding the bag. I don't blame them, though. I would leave and never look back if I could. Maybe one day.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Reply #18)

Thu Jun 20, 2013, 05:07 PM

49. watch us get rid of Republican rule in VA

we CAN and we WILL! with a helluvalotta help from McDonnell and Cuccinelli

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Response to rrneck (Original post)

Thu Jun 20, 2013, 07:51 AM

19. They do not want our help.

 

They prove it every 2 years by voting for people who oppose Medicaid expansion etc.

We can't save the south from itself.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #19)

Thu Jun 20, 2013, 09:05 AM

21. Thanks for lumping all of us together.

 

And I don't see you saying anything about Michigan, Wisconsin, Ohio, Pennsylvania, or New Jersey.

All CURRENTLY have Republican Governors; in case you haven't noticed.

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Response to Dawgs (Reply #21)

Thu Jun 20, 2013, 09:11 AM

22. And mostly Democratic Senators, with the Republicans they do elect

 

practically liberal by southern standards.

Until a majority of people down there start voting semi-sane every once and a while, the south will continue to be its own worst enemy.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #22)

Thu Jun 20, 2013, 10:23 AM

24. A fine libertarian attitude that. nt

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #22)

Thu Jun 20, 2013, 11:12 AM

31. Sorry, but the Democratic Senators excuse is lame and you know it.

 

There is ignorance throughout this country, and the fact that "blue states" like New Jersey and Pennsylvania are electing Republican Governors shows us that stupidity is rampant everywhere, not just in the South.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #22)

Thu Jun 20, 2013, 12:56 PM

39. Nope

My Congress S.O.B. Leonard Lance voted yea on Tuesday to limit abortion rights.

That's the NJ 7th District. He is not liberal in any way, shape, or form in comparison to anyone.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #19)

Thu Jun 20, 2013, 07:40 PM

66. yeah, like poor people are voting

for republicans.

If you'll notice on the map the most extreme cases of poverty dot the mexico /US borders which tend to vote very blue every election.

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Response to rrneck (Original post)

Thu Jun 20, 2013, 10:42 AM

27. I can't demand people vote a certain way

You still have pockets stuck in a 1960 mentality. You also have the residue of the Public Shaming of an entire group of people (aka Jim Crow). It's effects reach beyond the South though - as those of that are products of the Great Migration can attest to. There is not equality in basic public education. You have Red Legislatures and Governors who'd rather anally rend and torture themselves than admit they have a problem.

And well - it doesn't resonate in the North East.

I live in the 6th wealthiest county in America. Somehow - it feels MORE tragic to me when there is such abundance and it's right down the street . . . The single mom trying to get by on 22K a year in a place where you can't rent a one bedroom apartment for less than $1200 a month. And I can see first hand what Good Guv'nah Doughboy's policies are doing to the weakest economically in NJ. It's real to me.

So the problem the South has is . . . it's not just the South. I CAN impact in that very bright blue swath in NJ. I can continue my 'triage' efforts through my volunteer work with two food banks. And I can harass, harangue, and abuse my State Legislators and Fed Reps until they do the right thing.

If you think the North East 'Oligarchs' are grinding Southerners under their heel - you oughta see what the Wall Street Plutocrats have done to NJ. . .

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Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #27)

Thu Jun 20, 2013, 10:56 AM

29. We're all in the same boat.

It's not fair to demand people from blue areas to trundle into red areas and proselytize. That wouldn't work anyway. But our indulgence in culture war issues divides us as Americans and weakens the most important and powerful coalition there is: the 99%. There has already been one post in this thread that mentions guns. Every time that happens pro and anti gun lobbyists cash registers ring.

Political issues are just another market, and people's emotions are just another natural resource. When we get sidetracked by ersatz culture war issues be they guns or religion we become colonialized not by region but by class.

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Response to rrneck (Reply #29)

Thu Jun 20, 2013, 11:19 AM

32. But who started the culture war

I'm the daughter of a man who did not feel it was safe to move back to Talladega Alabama with his white wife and two bi-racial children after distinguished military service as a US Army Captain and Green Beret -


In 1978.
It really did NOT come from the media. It started when I was 3 years old and living in Weisbaden, West Germany. A guy was running for President in 1976. His name was Ronald Reagan. He related to a group of Mississippi Voters the story of this welfare queen . . . from the 'South Side of Chicago'. South Side of Chicago in 1976 AND now is code word for 'black people'. It came from ONE side and ONLY ONE SIDE that did it - the Republicans. They've told this lie over and over and over and over again.

It's the 'reality' that many white Americans know - REGARDLESS of their region. They believe it. And they are the power structure in the South. You have pockets of liberalism and inclusion - but Atlanta and Austin aren't enough to make the change.

There are moves to disenfranchise minorities going on in the south. I wait and hold my breath that the SCOTUS is not going to send ALL of us to the back of bus. But if they let the 'South' have their way - that's what is going to happen . .. to all of us. Check out what went down in Philadelphia this past Presidential Election. It's like a 1956 time warp.

There is also a move from ONE side - NOT the media - to undo what the Civil Rights Era DID. And that was to assert the authority of the Federal Government. And their efforts are already working - have you seen who my Governor is lately? And what he stands for? And who voted for him? It's a very Everyone For Themselves State of Mind in NJ lately.

Point blank - I'm supporting someone other than Booker in our Primary as a matter of principle. No doubt - he (Booker) will win the General Election. I will be canvassing and making calls for both he and Barbara Buono (Gov Race - solid progressive - knows first hand poverty and working ones way up from it). If I knock on the door and show your map in Camden, Newark, Jersey City, the Oranges, Atlantic City - I will get the door slammed in my face.

It won't work to get Booker elected to the US Senate - and I need to be able to sneak Buono info in on that canvassing. It won't resonate to a poor black single mother living in Jersey City. It simply won't.

You know how you are on a plane - and the flight crew is giving safety information. And they tell you about the oxygen masks?

Put yours on your face first and then help others. Well -I'm doing AOK in this economy. Seriously. So I first have to turn to the people in the seat next to me and help them get their oxygen masks on. Then I can move up the front of the plane and help those folks.

I truly believe poverty has to be addressed in the WEALTHIEST states in order to provide a roadmap for the poorer states. We have the means to help those down the road from us and in the 'shadows' of wealth. We can do it WITHOUT needing ANY help from members of the House or Senate from the South that might for instance -

Want to attach rules around school lunch programs and backpack programs (food for the weekend) about gender roles being taught in the classroom. Or prayer taught in the classroom. Or limiting abortion rights for teachers in public schools while making rules that they must be fired if they have a child out of wedlock.


We can do it here without the onus of the Moral Majority and Christian Coalition. And until the South realizes that Christie and Scott Brown aside - we are rejecting anything to do with God and Morality in the public sector in our neck of the woods -it's going to be very hard to come to agreement.


I'm not saying what you have posted is a pipe dream. I just don't think it can happen Right Now - at this minute. It's just not going to happen. I supported Edwards in 2008 because he actually said the word Loud and Proud: Poverty. But without a champion for it Nationally - I can't wait for that . . . I've got hungry people coming to the Bound Brook NJ Food Bank this Saturday and I've got to worry about my neighbors first. I'm sorry.

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Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #32)

Thu Jun 20, 2013, 12:01 PM

37. You're doing good work and goodonya for it.

Nobody started the culture wars. They were always here. They will always be here. People will always have conflicting attitudes about how to live. That's a good thing. Creative solutions are found in conflicting ideas.

I think the problem is not culture wars, but the war profiteering of the 1%. I lived most of my life in the south and southerners aren't really any different from anybody else. They work for a living, get married, have babies and generally do what humans have been doing for a million years. I left the south and was glad to do so because I can only talk about stock cars and deer hunting for about fifteen minutes and that's it. I got really tired of hearing some asshole say "praise Jesus" every whipstich. I live in a very liberal town and now instead of deer hunting it's fancy bikes and yoga. Instead of some asshole saying "praise Jesus" it's some asshole talking about "energy". For all it's liberal pretensions it's still an upscale community full of liberals that make money in the market and flip houses in real estate bubbles. Liberals around here are just as avaricious, sanctimonious and self deluded as anybody in the south. And there are entire industries devoted to telling them how right they are to think that way.

How do you get poor white people to admit they're poor white people who need help? Don't be condescending. We give the political right the best weapon they have, and they use it well. They accuse us of being elitist ivory tower jerks out of touch with the reality of people's lives, and we give them examples to point at every day.

They are not poor. We are poor. They are not ignorant. We are ignorant. They don't need help. We need help.

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Response to rrneck (Reply #37)

Thu Jun 20, 2013, 12:43 PM

38. I don't think this is condescending

How do you get poor white people to admit they're poor white people who need help? Don't be condescending. We give the political right the best weapon they have, and they use it well. They accuse us of being elitist ivory tower jerks out of touch with the reality of people's lives, and we give them examples to point at every day
.



It's a fair question.


Those same people have NO problem attacking a poor black or latina teenager as the 'problem' - as not having 'worked for it'. As being 'less deserving'.


They have to admit it - if you are a poor white christian single 19 year old in a rural southern town - you gotta admit that you are NOT more deserving than anyone else in this country regardless of race, religion, region.



See - I SEE the groups as 'one'. But I'm not so certain they see my former pregnant teenager, now single mother of caucasian/black/Puerto Rica ethic background 19 year old neice the same. Or her daughter - who is cute as a button. And just as deserving as the blond haired blue eyed little southern girl.

And I had a similar discussion with my dad in 2008. He wanted to applaud the 'no red America or Blue America' nonsense Obama was spouting. It doesn't work for me. It doesn't work for a lot of people.

I applaud your efforts and I think we both agree: Poverty is a serious issue. And it's one attached to so many and that if we don't get ahead of this - then we ARE in decline.

I just disagree with a Federal Solution. We've had a Federal Solution called 'welfare reform' (the move to SNAP and TANF, etc. etc. in the mid 1990's) and guess what -

It hasn't worked.

Same folks get marginalized. Same bullshit stereotypes about blacks - and now that is being expanded to latinos/hispanics. And no one is getting pulled up.


There isn't a Federal Solution that can be done. Maybe I'm 40 and old and tired and cynical - and I'll take those words on the chin. Because it's true. I'm cynical. I have more faith in my State Senator to Trenton than I do a Saxby Chambliss or Lindsay Graham. I just do. I also have more faith in that State Senator than I do Bob Menendez on this issue - and I love Bob Menedez!


And - if you go back and read your OP - it's kind of critical of folks who've just been 'hurt' by the South and what they exported to the rest of the country. If someone spits in your eye enough - and makes you the face of evil . . . sooner or later - you start to lose feeling for them. Indifference isn't bad - sometimes it leads to calm heads that do no implicit harm to one another.


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Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #38)

Thu Jun 20, 2013, 01:28 PM

40. Heh. I was raised Southern Baptist.

Got dunked and everything. Nowadays friends and relatives in the south figure me for some sort of bound for hell commie. But in spite of all that, the christian message of "turn the other cheek" still holds true. And it ain't easy. If (generic) you hurt somebody, they will hate what you do. If you hurt them again they will hate you for what you do. If you hurt them enough they will hate you for who you are. Keep hurting them and they will hate everybody like you.

It's a funny thing about forcing people to admit something. Trying to force them to admit it usually makes them dig in their heels more. You can watch it happen right here all the time. Facts and figures are to no avail. Logic is useless. That's because people believe in something, and since politics is just another religion fundamentalism is going to happen. One can be a fundamentalist liberal just as much as a fundamentalist christian. And the results are about the same.

For all the high falutin' thinking that goes on here and everywhere else, I've found the best way to change people's minds is to work with them personally on a shared objective. And I don't mean discussing it over a distance of a thousand miles. I mean actually working shoulder to shoulder. There is still plenty of racism in the south just like everywhere else. But people of different races do actually work together, and they they do so happily if not joyfully. They are able to do so because the activity is not defined by ideology. They may believe any number of things, but they bring those beliefs to the task at hand and profit from it. And they profit in more ways than one.

There is a weird and ugly thing that happens when we begin to expect people to work for an ideology instead of expecting an ideology to work for people. Buying something means someone has invested in it and they will have a tendency to protect that investment. It seems we have become ideological consumers buying personalized ideologies from industries controlled by the 1%. I sometimes wonder if a "personal relationship with God" is really any different from personalized identity politics. How often are left leaning talking heads referred to by their first names and lionized as political celebrities for telling people what they want to hear?

I can appreciate your skepticism regarding a "federal solution". The actual work of helping people and getting along with them is best the closer to home it is. I think maybe that the money to do all those good things should run through Washington because it unites us as Americans and, in the words of Willie Sutton, "That's where the money is."

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Response to rrneck (Reply #40)

Thu Jun 20, 2013, 01:45 PM

41. I was raised Southern Baptist too!

Family switched to American Baptist at 12.
I rejected all trinitarian and mystical elements at 31 and became a UU.


I think maybe that the money to do all those good things should run through Washington because it unites us as Americans and, in the words of Willie Sutton, "That's where the money is."


Ideally - yes. However - and this is where that' "Let 'em Go" hammer comes from sometimes -

But I think most folks in my state are aware of how much we send into the Federal Government and then get back from the Federal Government. How little some states pay in versus how very MUCH they get back.

If you ask someone involved in this kind of triage volunteer work - you would be amazed at how much comes directly out of folks pockets and into our food banks locally. It's hard to get the left activist community to budge on giving more to the Fed here. And the Right and clueless? They just don't care.


But the 'Let them Go' hammer always seems to come out on this point. Always.

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Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #41)

Thu Jun 20, 2013, 04:59 PM

47. I rail about the 1% as much as anybody and they deserve it.

If they're smart they'll get their shit together before people start dragging them out of their houses and stringing them up. But the reality is that you don't go from average middle class to CEO millionaire all in one leap. There is a strata of people who make a good living, better than most, who will find that if we actually decide to help the poor in this country it will cost them. That strata is shrinking because wealth is accelerating upward all the time, but nevertheless the urban centers on the east and west coast have a lot of people who will have to lose money to make the country better.

The same holds true for the states that give more to the federal government than they get. The irony that southerners distrust the government while their states get more federal money than they give is old hat around here. That disparity is as it should be. Wealth is being concentrated in blue states at the expense of the red states. Economic parity means that the blue states will have to give up a boatload of money. One of the earliest political observations I remember from my dad was when he said, "The roads around the county road supervisor's house always get fixed first." Culture, education, and infrastructure follow money. And the money is concentrated in the north.

The best thing about what you do is that you are personally doing it. Real people see another real person helping them. Too many of us think our civic responsibilities don't extend beyond clicking a MoveOn link. It means more than just feeding people. I had an English professor in college that was from Oregon. He was a tree hugging hippie and a bit of a novelty in the south. In the early days of recycling they had those cardboard boxes with three holes for soda cans all over the place. After class as we walked along, he would pick up cans and put them in the box. He wouldn't say anything and he didn't do it to shame anyone. It's just something he did. And the magic is that you found yourself doing it too. That's where real social change happens.

When I look at a map like this, I see a map of where the money is.

With rankings by state, congressional district and racial/ethnic group, the index provides a snapshot of where different groups stand today and sets a benchmark for evaluating progress over time. The study shows that there are enormous disparities across America in the distribution of health, education, and income.

The map below shows overall rankings by state. Use this interactive map to create custom maps by state, district, metro area, and by race within each state including earnings, educational achievement, life expectancy and many more.


http://www.pbs.org/now/fixing-the-future/well-being.html


I'm not trying to give you a hard time, and I appreciate the work you do in the community. But most of those really dark spots on that map would not be there if liberal ideology were actually put into practice in this country. And those spots are in notably blue states. Carpetbaggers haven't gone away. They just have different luggage.

This one ran a bit long. Hope it wasn't too laborious.

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Response to rrneck (Reply #47)

Thu Jun 20, 2013, 05:24 PM

54. It isn't because those states are hording all the money.

 


It's because Reagan almost halved the Federal income tax.

Are you seriously suggesting northern states should tax their own people then donate that money to the southern states? Seriously?

This has to be done at the federal level. To do that we would need legislatures and a president who believe we should have higher progressive federal taxes EVERYWHERE: north and south. Since the north is wealthier, this would naturally result in a greater transfer of wealth from north to south.

That transfer already exists, of course, as southern states typically get more from the federal government than they pay in while for northern states it is usually the opposite. But we need to increase it. And what stops that are the voters who send Republicans to Congress and the White House.

Maybe you should stop blaming the people who are trying to do exactly what you want.

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Response to ieoeja (Reply #54)

Thu Jun 20, 2013, 05:41 PM

56. They obviously aren't doing enough.

The question is why. Regan's (and all the rest) tax cuts are the problem, but don't expect any meaningful tax increase to only affect the crowd in the Hamptons. Lots of upscale Democrats will have to give up that vacation in Tahoe to help a bunch of toothless rednecks in the south. That's how Republicans get away with all that crap. It's less about political ideology, identity politics, religion, guns, abortion, and the war on Christmas and more about money. Plain old filthy lucre. That's how they peel off support from the left. When the left makes money they move to the right and just don't admit it.

How many Democrats do you think recycle their trash, click every MoveOn.org link, march in peace rallies and trumpet their liberal ideals then go home and demand their accountants squeeze every last penny out of their investments? As I recall, it's classic Marx. When the bourgeoisie feels the pinch, they join the proletariat to fight for justice. They just haven't felt the pinch yet.

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Response to rrneck (Reply #47)

Thu Jun 20, 2013, 07:31 PM

65. It doesn't tell the whole story

$80K is a tremendous amount of money to a family of four in Alabama.

Central NJ - not so much.

First - with our personal income STATE tax - they are down to about 58K.

Small three bedroom home - what we are looking at - property taxes range from 8 to 13 K a year. Let's assume they are going to pay 10K. Now they are down to 48K.

That house - Starts at 267K. Assuming they put 5% down - now you have about 1800 a month in mortgage - round figure 19K. 29K.

Insurance - include two late model cars they own and that flood zone map for the house - $2500

26.5 K.

Health Insurance - Round off to 6K. 20K.

They have co pays, groceries, gas and electric - PSEG - Average to about $150 per month.

They have to save as we are being told we are Social Security Insecure - that fix is in.

Now one person loses their job . . .


I count my blessings everyday - but we can't assume everyone in NJ, or MA, or NY is the 1%. When you come to NYC or the Jersey Shore on vacation - someone has to clean your hotel room and work the Hoagie stand. Thats the majority here.

It would be a bitter pill to swallow when I don't begrudge a single cent we pay in Federal Taxes each year- to be told - pay even more because your poor aren't poor enough.

And unless you are making $15 an hour in my community - you aren't making it.

Do you realize the majority of our school budgets come from property taxes here? Can every person in every town across America do the same? I understand that the answer to desegregation was the formation f the Christian Private School System. I need the folks sending their kids to those schools to do the same thing my parents did when they sent me to a prep school - go in and vote for the biggest, most aggressive budget that will give all children a stellar education.

I need to see some sacrifice from the top ten percent of the Southern States before I take from the kids of Bridgewater NJ.

And every single day my husband and I count our blessings. Because we make far more than that median 80K a year. We count our blessings every single day.

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Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #65)

Thu Jun 20, 2013, 09:34 PM

69. I agree.

To be fair, there are plenty of petite bourgeoisie down south as well. They are invariably big conservative/libertarians with delusions of grandeur. I use the generic term "boat assholes" for them. Everything depends on properly progressive income tax reform. But there is another dynamic that we should consider. We may not be able to afford our cities for too much longer.

We are an empire in decline. We haven't garrisoned the planet just for the fun of it. Our cities, and their surrounding suburbs and exurbs, consume tremendous resources. Global competition for those resources is increasing every day. I don't expect it to happen soon, but I wouldn't be surprised if forces beyond our control turn great swaths of the eastern seaboard into another rotting Detroit. At least the rent will go down.

But I'm obviously not enough of an economist to parse it much more than that. I just expect, given the global resource situation, that anybody with anything is going to have to give up some of it, and the poorest among us don't have anywhere to downsize to. Under those circumstances, if we don't start sacrificing now while we can control our reduction, the poorest among us will begin the process for us and they won't be too gentle about it.

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Response to rrneck (Reply #29)

Thu Jun 20, 2013, 11:32 AM

35. I have a question

How will you get caucasians receiving social services to ADMIT they are poor and they are not different from the 'other'.

I can't help someone until they admit the problem and see - they aren't more deserving based upon the color of their skin.

Working poor and poverty are simply working poor and poverty - I don't see the race. But will the white southerner taking those services yet who votes AGAINST themselves on economic issues - but in alignment on moral issues -

Will they see themselves as the peer of the 'Welfare Queen'? When will they. Because we need them to holler 'help' before we CAN help them in any measurable way.

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Response to rrneck (Original post)

Thu Jun 20, 2013, 11:40 AM

36. For some of us who were around in the 60s it feels like we have to do it all over again. Or maybe it

is that they did not win the Civil War and we did not win the Civil Rights War - we just convinced ourselves we did.

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Response to rrneck (Original post)

Thu Jun 20, 2013, 02:08 PM

44. Where conservatives live and actively oppress "the other", poverty reigns supreme

The ochre boxes are probably Native American enclaves.

Those maps tell it all

Racists in control of those areas are willing to experience poverty for their own kind, as long as they can oppress those below themselves.

Many don't realize they are doing it, but they continually vote for people who just love oppressing people...even their own voters,

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Response to rrneck (Original post)

Thu Jun 20, 2013, 03:05 PM

45. And here I thought we were "one nation ..."

Sigh.

Bake

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Response to rrneck (Original post)

Thu Jun 20, 2013, 05:10 PM

51. "...probably hailed from a blue state."



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Response to rrneck (Original post)

Thu Jun 20, 2013, 05:45 PM

58. Thank you!

When it comes to southern voting habits (as of late) don't forget just how gerrymandered some of our states are.

I've been trying for awhile to convince friends and family to first vote and second vote democratic ('cause that's as liberal as it gets in Texas) by using info like this. Kind of a "you're voting against your own interests" thing. So far, so good. Everyone (who's of voting age) in my family voted for Obama.

Y'all should hear my Grandma complain about fox "news". Ever heard a 67 year old women say the f-word? I have. A lot.

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Response to Lunacee_2013 (Reply #58)

Thu Jun 20, 2013, 05:49 PM

60. Sounds like your grandma would be pretty cool to hang out with. nt

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Response to rrneck (Original post)

Thu Jun 20, 2013, 06:15 PM

63. Please remember Ronnie Ray Gun

Born in the Midwest, lived in California, and to this date, the only Union president ever elected to the Oval Office.

let's not forget Nixon in California too,

or Joe McCarthy of Wisconsin.

Point is, there is a lot of red in the Blue states, the real divide is urban vs rural, as every southern city, even Houston, is blue in the elections.

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Response to DonCoquixote (Reply #63)

Thu Jun 20, 2013, 06:21 PM

64. Very true. Population density figures large in the dynamic. nt

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Response to rrneck (Original post)

Fri Jun 21, 2013, 05:39 PM

70. Virginia is weird on this map: most people rich, most places poor

kicking to remark that no other state is so nearly bisected by the wealth/poverty divide-- more than half the people on the wealthy side, more than half the places on the poverty side

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Response to rrneck (Original post)

Fri Jun 21, 2013, 06:08 PM

71. THat map can be overlaid on a number of others

Poverty, obesity, diabetes, etc...

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Response to MNBrewer (Reply #71)

Fri Jun 21, 2013, 06:14 PM

72. ....chewing tobacco....

 

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Response to Spitfire of ATJ (Reply #72)

Fri Jun 21, 2013, 06:33 PM

74. I grew up in rural Georgia

The youngsters would hang out in the parking lot of what passed for a mall on Friday and Saturday nights. By Sunday it looked like a rodeo had been held there, with all the "chaw" dotting the asphalt.

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Response to MNBrewer (Reply #74)

Fri Jun 21, 2013, 06:47 PM

78. A friend of mine had a brother visit from Pascagoula Mississippi,...

 

The guy was constantly spitting into empty soda cans.

Her kid came in on a hot day and thought it was a half empty soda someone left behind.

I told him he had a swig of "the un-Skoal-a".

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Response to rrneck (Original post)

Fri Jun 21, 2013, 06:19 PM

73. How in the world can the counties in SD that comprise Pine Ridge not be deep red?

 



Also interesting that Bay Area counties like Marin, San Mateo and Santa Clara are neutral rather than blue (in Marin's case, dark blue).

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Response to KamaAina (Reply #73)

Fri Jun 21, 2013, 06:34 PM

75. very poor, but very few people, so concentration is low?

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Response to MNBrewer (Reply #75)

Fri Jun 21, 2013, 06:35 PM

76. But the portion of the Navajo reservation in northeast AZ is dark red

 

that's what made me think of Pine Ridge.

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Response to KamaAina (Reply #76)

Fri Jun 21, 2013, 06:37 PM

77. WIthout a doubt Pine Ridge is known for poverty.

But maybe there are more Navajo on the reservation there than on Pine Ridge? The Dakotas are sparsely populated, so I doubt either wealth or poverty would show as extremely concentrated on this scale.

ON edit: Although some counties do show that now that I revisit the map.

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