General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsHouse Republicans Hate Poor Too Much to End Farm Socialism
By Jonathan Chait
The right-wing critique of Big Government bloated, wasteful spending with no real purpose that imposes huge costs on the market is basically wrong, but theres one major piece of the government in which its completely right: agriculture policy. The farm sector is a vast archipelago of socialism sitting amid a free-market economy. Agri-socialism commands essentially zero intellectual support. Conservatives hate it. Liberals hate it. Experts or academics who study it tend to say things like, It's so astonishingly irrational, it just takes your breath away. Agri-socialism operates largely in a self-contained world dominated by the economic interests that benefit from it. So, for instance, the National Milk Producers Federation can say things like, This supply management provision is crucial to ending low milk prices, as if maintaining high prices were a sensible public policy goal.
Basically, there is no reason at all for the government to single out farmers for special support, as opposed to any other kind of business owners. If I were looking to cut domestic spending, or even if I werent, farm subsidies would be the first thing to go, the most unjustifiable government program of any significant size. Its worth noting that the budget figures dont nearly capture the cost of agriculture subsidies, much of which come in the form of quotas and tariffs that result in higher consumer prices but dont entail writing checks from Washington.
Unfortunately, even though congressional Republicans are looking to cut domestic spending, most of them regard agriculture subsidies as an especially meritorious program, not an especially awful one. Some of them want to cut it deeply or even do away with it, but not enough. And the main dynamic that prevents reform, and the reason the farm bill ultimately went down on the House floor today, is that the conservatives who do want to cut agriculture subsidies will only do it if they can also kick the living crap out of the poor.
Agriculture subsidies have traditionally been bundled together with food stamps, in order to create a legislative coalition. (Farmers like the fact that food stamps mean more people can buy their food.) But in recent years, conservatives have gone from tolerating food stamps to absolutely loathing them. This year, House Republicans have attached to their farm bill deep cuts in food stamps, which have grown costlier because the recession has vastly increased the number of poor, hungry Americans (and not, as many Republicans claim, because of loose eligibility standards).
more
http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2013/06/gop-hates-poor-too-much-to-end-farm-socialism.html
B Calm
(28,762 posts)from commodity, crop insurance, and disaster programs and $39 billion in conservation payments paid between 1995 and 2012.
Enter your zip code and find out how much your neighbor is sucking from your tax dollars! http://farm.ewg.org/
Andy823
(11,495 posts)I started years ago to see who in my area were getting all the money. The most money goes to the richest farmers it seems. I know farmers who took that money for vacations every year to Hawaii. This program is a sham and should be done away with. The only reason it's still going on is that the corporations are making millions each year from the government, and of course the politicians make a lot in "donations" from these same corporations.
zbdent
(35,392 posts)got farm subsidies?
B Calm
(28,762 posts)Major Nikon
(36,818 posts)Farm subsidies were born from depression era politics and serve the purpose of food commodity price stabilization. This goal is just as valid today as it was back in the '30s. The reality that political forces have bastardized the program for the benefit of a few does not diminish the need for such a program.
handmade34
(22,756 posts)make a similar point... [maybe not agribusiness], but farmers do feed the people and we would be wise to support (especially) small sustainable farmers
Major Nikon
(36,818 posts)Those types of farmers are the most susceptible to market and weather forces. The bottom line is that farmland does not come back once it is reallocated to other uses. The eventual result is higher prices for everyone and an even greater consolidation of limited resources in the hands of a few. The cause and effect is quite different than other types of businesses and shouldn't be looked at the same.
Jim Lane
(11,175 posts)I could see a role for government in helping to smoothe out wild short-term price fluctuations. That kind of mechanism, though, would stabilize the price in the general vicinity of the market price, which, over the long term, might go up or down. As the OP notes, the current program is based on the idea that any reduction in prices, even a gradual one, is bad.
Major Nikon
(36,818 posts)Prices that trend low means the least efficient farmers (small farms) are squeezed out of the market. This is what the farm program seeks to prevent.
The US has the lowest prices for food in the world.
http://www.motherjones.com/blue-marble/2012/01/america-food-spending-less
PotatoChip
(3,186 posts)None, whatsoever...
In fact, I contend that these subsidies are doing the very thing that you are claiming they are trying to prevent. Squeezing out small farms, I mean...
To add insult to injury, they (large agribusinesses) are very often the worst offenders when it comes to employing undocumented workers -and- (not uncommonly) exploiting them terribly.
These subsidies have morphed from what once was a very good, and well intentioned program, into corporate welfare for gigantic so-called "farm" operation$. For these so-called "farmer$" (whose entire day's work generally consists of sitting behind a desk) it's all about the bottom line.
Major Nikon
(36,818 posts)If the alternative is a reform of the farm subsidy program that keeps prices low, retains farmland, and puts government funds where they are needed most, then I would agree completely.
If the alternative is no farm policy at all, then imagine America with far less farmland, much higher prices for food, more starving people in other countries (if not here), much less food, and much less small business farms.
PotatoChip
(3,186 posts)PsychoBunny
(86 posts)because I like food!
Scurrilous
(38,687 posts)handmade34
(22,756 posts)and the hate (of the gov't helping the poor) is palpable...
http://mercatus.org/publication/history-farm-bill-spending
The rationale to use farm subsidies to keep farm households out of poverty made some sense in the 1930s, but it doesnt today.
Despite the fact that farm households are doing as well or better than other households, farm households are still targeted for billions of dollars in government payments.
agricultural production.
http://mercatus.org/publication/bloated-farm-subsidies-will-2013-farm-bill-really-cut-fat
kentauros
(29,414 posts)As stated so far, price stabilization, and supporting small farms. I'd add that we should be putting far more money into organic farming, partly as a means of combating global warming (healthy topsoil is a major carbon sink.)
I'd also like to give temporary/start-up subsidies to hemp farmers, once we are allowed to do that kind of thing
B Calm
(28,762 posts)be the second largest (REPUBLICAN) farmer in Indiana is getting millions in subsidies. He's now getting help from us tax payers to drill wells and to purchase the equipment to water his damn cornfields.
What will happen to us who live in rural areas when our wells go dry? and to think we helped pay for it, barf!
kentauros
(29,414 posts)have to do with your wealthy neighbor? Or are you inferring that I support all farm subsidies? And how did you come to that (incorrect) assumption?
B Calm
(28,762 posts)in the real world they handing our tax dollars to millionaires and the program needs to end!
Throw out all the good it does because of the few that take advantage of the system. Where have I heard that before?
B Calm
(28,762 posts)of the system! I provided a link http://farm.ewg.org/ Enter a zip code from the midwest farm country and you'll see. This site only gives you a small part of farm subsidies being paid, but it's a real eye opener!!
There are other subsidies besides crop subsidies too. Like to have drainage tile installed in your field? here's the money. Like to have a new farm pond? here's the money! Like to have wells drilled and field sprinklers installed? here's the money! ETC ETC ETC
The program needs to end!
kentauros
(29,414 posts)The pertinent bits of information missing are how they vote, what their annual income is, what the income of their farm is, what are the operating costs of their farm, what they're growing, what's their overall profit from their farm, are they operating at a loss in order to get through the three years required to turn it into an organic farm, and probably much more. The link was useless in my determining anything but how much money my "neighbors" received in federal funding to help them grow food.
The examples you're giving above are also for conservation, like to prevent loss of topsoil. Or do you think erosion is something we shouldn't attempt to prevent?
I don't know what it takes to run a farm, but I think I know a little more than you seem to know, because I see someone that is tossing out things I can figure out easily without any experience all because you interpret it to mean "waste." Find out all the details I mentioned above first and then we can talk about supposed fraud.
B Calm
(28,762 posts)Are you? If so, why not "enlighten" us on the full details. Because that link is useless to anyone that isn't a farmer.
B Calm
(28,762 posts)in a rural area all my adult life and see first hand how they're abusing the farm bill.
Back in the 30s the farm bill made sense, but today not so much. Soil erosion was pretty much controlled many years ago with the CCC planting rows of osage orange trees on the edges of fields. Now farmers are cutting down these trees for more acreage and installing drainage tiles to drain their pesticides and herbicides into nearby creeks and streams.
The Farm Bill needs to end to cut the pork and a new one in it's place that will support small farms only!
kentauros
(29,414 posts)(In fact, it's a huge problem due to non-organic farming practices.) If farmers are destroying existing soil-erosion controls, then they need to be fined and/or have their subsidies cut. I still don't see how the fraud you see is so endemic that the entire program needs to be thrown out. All I'm seeing is you observing fraud in your little area, not the entire country. Maybe you should get yourself employed with the USDA to collect all these instances of systemic fraud and make a case for ending this program.
I'd rather see the fraud eliminated from within without ending the program, because it covers enough overall good to outweigh any current fraud.
snappyturtle
(14,656 posts)actual owner of the farm land may not be getting the subsidies at all. If the owner engages in a
rent/cash agreement with the renter, it is the renter who pockets the subsidies. Now if and probably the renter also rents other farms plus his own which he can claim, subsidies become very lucrative. Bad weather? Bad market? no worries....there are subsidies that keep things going along.
Used to be and I'm assuming that the gov't also still pays farmers not to plant a cash crop on specified acreage. It's planted with grass or something to hold the soil but....I suppose they do this for keeping prices up on grain (supply down). It's nuts!
Planting corn for ethanol is another matter that needs a good looking at.
I really think it is unfair to subsidize farming to the extent it is esp. when corporate farms are involved. It's my belief that if the family farm goes down one of a few things have happened:
1) the farmer has grossly mis-managed 2) the farmer has been taken by those doing the actual
farming or 3) the land is deficient. Remember, the owner is still subject to the property taxes (farmland has escalated in value), fencing, etc. and anything else he and his renter agree to....cost of nitrogen, e.g. I'll concede that rent is at a high but so are grain prices....for how long???? You may ask why rent it out? Many farms are old and there aren't descendents to farm it....so.
I read the Purdue University site for ag news and the Chicago Federal Reserve as a news source too. Look in your local area for sources such as these. It's quite enllightening.
I've learned a lot the last 17 months since my mother died. She was the sole descendent to the family farm (132 yrs.) and sadly 'taken' by the renter who convinced her he couldn't afford much in rent. His farm is adjacent to mine now so this was an easy deal for him....I'm sure he did this to other old farm owners too. All Mom needed to do was to look at his big equipment, grain dryers, Corvette collection, etc. But....no he's not renting the farm this year! From that linked site I found out he had been given a million dollars over ten years for the lands he farmed. TRUST me he is not the
only one....many on the link I've known all my life and it 'splains things I've always wondered about.
Now when my grandfather farmed....he started out farming with horses! He tested the moisture content to know when to harvest by biting into a kernel of corn! Times have changed.
Don't you just love it when folks complain about bailing out the auto industry?
Edit: And there are people all over the planet without enough food....HOW can that be? But let's go after the SNAP users.
kentauros
(29,414 posts)and the parts of the system that aren't working (such as land-owners getting the subsidies instead of the renters) need to be revamped. I don't agree that the entire program needs to be scrapped in order to eliminate said fraud and irregularities. If we did that to all government programs, we wouldn't have a government!
I also understand that operating a farm is costly, including topsoil management. However, that alone is one of the best investments a farmer can make, so long as they can remain on the land long enough to reap the benefits. I don't know what the solutions are, other than getting more Liberals and organic-farming-knowledgable people involved and/or employed by this program. It would help everyone, except the agri-business giants, and I would expect them to fight such changes.
Perhaps we could change the program to something akin to the SBA instead, and separate out programs like SNAP to operate on their own. I don't know; I'm no expert on federal operations, either.
snappyturtle
(14,656 posts)subsidies are there so who blames anyone for using them. I was just trying to get across that they are more than a safety net! My one fear is that if subsidies were removed, who'd farm? With climate change looming more and more it will be more risky to farm.
I totally agree with you that SNAP should be separate from the farm bill or at least I think that's what you're saying.
kentauros
(29,414 posts)And I agree that the subsidies are needed to keep some people farming. I guess the 'fraud' part came from my "discussion" with the other poster. There's also the fact that you and the other DUer have "inside knowledge" with regards to your neighbors being conservative. I know nothing about my "neighbors" listed on my zip from that site. As far as I'm concerned, and by the looks of the minimal amounts they're getting, they deserve the money just for having a farm and attempting to work the land.
I would bet quite a few of them are truck farms, as I've driven past some of those, surrounded as they are by subdivisions.
kelliekat44
(7,759 posts)you (generic "you" will get what you deserve.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)kentauros
(29,414 posts)I don't think the agri-business giants need any subsidies, but then, they'd probably raise their prices without them, and we'd have to spend more to re-stabilize prices. It's a complex system I don't pretend to fully understand or know, yet there are still simple functions, such as SNAP, and land conservation, that anyone can grasp and understand are beneficial to all
Recursion
(56,582 posts)We have had the most stable real food prices of any industrialized nation since WWII. I'd like to keep that happening.