Yes, I do hope Edward Snowden escapes "justice" in the U.S.

[cali]

it's simple. I don't think he has a chance of getting real justice and given the treatment of Bradley Manning in custody, the odds of Snowden being tortured/mistreated/whatever you want to call it/ are great.

This is quite aside from his actual guilt or innocence. I don't think he'd get a fair trial.

Yes, Manning has been tortured/mistreated/whatever you want to call it.

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Latest-News-Wires/2012/1202/Hearing-for-Bradley-Manning-focuses-on-harsh-prison-treatment

http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2012/08/general-manning-jail-treatment/

http://www.salon.com/2010/12/15/manning

I wouldn't wish that on anyone- even the banksters.

[Cleita]

1. I have to agree. Considering what is being done to Bradley Manning, I don't think

Snowden would fare very well either under our present justice system. I hope Iceland grants him asylum.

[wtmusic]

4. +1

[backscatter712]

5. +2! n/t

[bvar22]

66. +3 here.

!

[L0oniX]

84. +4

[michigandem58]

2. Maybe he shouldn't have broken the law

Jail isn't pleasant.

[cali]

6. "Jail isn't pleasant". Not talking about "pleasant".

Bradley Manning was tortured. I've provided credible links. The odds are substantial that Snowden would also be tortured.

Do you support torture?

[tblue]

11. Think you. You made a great point.

No one should be treated like that.

[railsback]

54. LoL. Tortured?

My God, what a wimp Manning must be to think that's torture (via your links).

[michigandem58]

63. Direct quotes please

of what's in the articles that you consider torture.

[cali]

65. it's the totality of his treatment that constitutes torture

but here:'

Just by itself, the type of prolonged solitary confinement to which Manning has been subjected for many months is widely viewed around the world as highly injurious, inhumane, punitive, and arguably even a form of torture. In his widely praised March, 2009 New Yorker article — entitled “Is Long-Term Solitary Confinement Torture?” — the surgeon and journalist Atul Gawande assembled expert opinion and personal anecdotes to demonstrate that, as he put it, “all human beings experience isolation as torture.” By itself, prolonged solitary confinement routinely destroys a person’s mind and drives them into insanity. A March, 2010 article in The Journal of the American Academy of Psychiatry and the Law explains that “solitary confinement is recognized as difficult to withstand; indeed, psychological stressors such as isolation can be as clinically distressing as physical torture.”

For that reason, many Western nations — and even some non-Western nations notorious for human rights abuses — refuse to employ prolonged solitary confinement except in the most extreme cases of prisoner violence. “It’s an awful thing, solitary,” John McCain wrote of his experience in isolated confinement in Vietnam. “It crushes your spirit.” As Gawande documented: “A U.S. military study of almost a hundred and fifty naval aviators returned from imprisonment in Vietnam . . . reported that they found social isolation to be as torturous and agonizing as any physical abuse they suffered.” Gawande explained that America’s application of this form of torture to its own citizens is what spawned the torture regime which President Obama vowed to end:

[rhett o rick]

8. Our founders broke the law. Are all laws equal?

I believe that laws that protect the 1% from the 99% are less important than laws that the 1% use to enslave the 99%.

"Jail isn't pleasant". Neither is enslavement.

[marions ghost]

10. +++

+++

[tblue]

12. Nuremberg taught us they're not.

I'm scared for Snowden. I don't want him tortured.

[rhett o rick]

16. I dont think they will torture him or treat him like Manning. That didnt get very good

press. I am afraid he will get killed in a plain, everyday mugging. Or so it will look.

My problem with the speculation on the death of Michael Hastings is that those that might want him dead have ways that are not so spectacular, and attention drawing.

[Katashi_itto]

38. Manning was tortured. They got bad press did they care? No.

[rhett o rick]

60. You have a point. nm

[Katashi_itto]

64. Yup, they will declare him whatever they like as long as it provides some "legal"

cover. Thats the inherent problem with all this. Legal systems must be believed in to have legitamacy. They have been flushing it all away.

[sabrina 1]

20. Maybe our government shouldn't torture people. THAT is against the law.

[L0oniX]

79. This ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

[Magoo48]

46. What Law?

The collection, and potential collection, as well as the systems used to collect information about US citizens, is paid for by US citizens...We The People. The spooks, pols and spys are also slithering on the public dime. What the gentleman in question did is report to we citizens how our money is being spent, information which belongs to all of us since we paid for it to begin with. How is it that a man can break the law returning information to those it belongs to?

[cpwm17]

80. Yes, who are the victims of Snowden's actions?

Who did he harm and who owned the documents?

I know who are the victims of US Government spying: the US public, the actual owners of the documents.

[backscatter712]

3. Fuck yeah! Snowden's smart to escape!

Yes, I know, DU's own police-state martinets will be here calling him a coward in 3...2...1...

After what they did to Manning, it's not cowardice, but common sense to get out of Dodge!

Snowden's incredibly courageous for what he did. He's not stupid.

[tblue]

13. Oh backscatter712,

[carolinayellowdog]

67. kudos to your sig line n/t

[BlueStater]

7. I hope the US justice department never finds him either.

Fuck them. They deserve nothing less. They make this dude "public enemy no. 1" yet Bush walks around as a free man, getting libraries dedicated to him? I repeat. FUCK THEM.

[rhett o rick]

9. Their focus change may give medical marijuana users a much needed break. nm

[tblue]

14. The DOJ prosecutes the powerless

on behalf of the powerful. I'm pretty certain that's not what Thomas Jefferson would have wanted.

[backscatter712]

17. A-fucking-men! Snowden's to be the next Emmanuel Goldstein...

while Bush and Cheney remain free, while all the Wall Street scumfucks who trashed the economy, stole peoples' houses and drove millions into destitution get to live in giant mansions and jet-set around the world in private 737s.

Department of Injustice should be the name.

[Apophis]

15. Well, I wouldn't care if the banksters got tortured, but I agree with you on Snowden.

[SamKnause]

18. Snowden

I am in 100% agreement with you.

The Justice system in the U.S. is broken.

It is a two tier justice system.

It is a corrupt system with the goal of filling private prisons with new clients. Lobbyist writing the laws, demanding longer and stiffer penalties. Contractual obligations of 90% occupancy.

Money plays a large role in the justice system. The more you have, the more justice you can purchase.

Over crowding of the courts plays a large role in the justice system. This rarely affects the wealthy.

Funding cuts for Public Defenders plays a role in the justice system. This does not affect the wealthy.

Revenge from governmental agencies plays a large role in the justice system. This can affect the wealthy, or poor.

The power of corporations plays a very large role in the justice system. They have all the money, and the Supreme Court loves corporations.

The scale of justice in the U.S. is so very out of kilter.

The common man, or woman doesn't stand a chance.

How many people has Snowden ordered to be tortured ? None

How many illegal invasions is Snowden guilty of ? None

How many drone attacks has Snowden ordered that have resulted in the deaths of U.S. citizens. None

Was Snowden in any way responsible for the global financial collapse ? No

Is Snowden hoarding millions, or billions in offshore accounts ? No

My hat is off to all whistle blowers.

It is time to blow the lid off this powder keg of corruption, lies, war mongering, spying, fear mongering traitorous government.

There is no justice in the courts of the United States.

Ask all the prisoners being forced feed in Guantanamo about the U.S. justice system.

Ask the families around the globe who have lost family members to U.S. drone attacks if they received justice ?

Ask the millions of orphans our invasions and warmongering created if they received justice ?

Ask the millions of people who are homeless because of our invasions and warmongering if they received justice ?

Ask the millions of U.S. citizens who were foreclosed on if they received justice ?

Ask the 2.3 million incarcerated U.S. citizens if they received justice ? The majority of defendants are forced into plea deals with threats of long sentences, or life imprisonment.

Ask all of the U.S. citizens who are recipients of police brutality if they received justice ?

I hardly recognize the country I grew up in.

[mike_c]

19. agreed, 100 percent....

eom

[Marr]

21. It's shocking how quickly we became a nation that aggressively

imprisons and mistreats people who expose government wrongdoing, and how easily some people accept that while just ignoring the government actions they exposed.

[Whisp]

48. it's not just 'wrong doing'. it's a dangerous game for all involved

Snowden may be putting a lot of people in peril.

Cyberwarfare is something not to be taken lightly, it can cause as much harm as a war.

'wrong doing' is like the cover up sexual assault and pedophilia scandal at the State Dept under Clinton. No one is going to be tortured for that.

This is a whole other matter.

[ReRe]

22. I would allow it for the banksters and no one else. ;-)

K&R

Thanks for the OP and the links..

[cali]

24. tempting, I know. You're most welcome.

[truebluegreen]

23. Concur.

Although I enjoy fantasizing about the appropriate treatment for the banksters...taking away all their money would suffice.

[dlwickham]

25. hard to feel sorry for traitors

[cali]

27. so does that mean you're OK with the torture of Bradley Manning?

[dlwickham]

87. I'm not okay with torture

I am however okay with the treatment Manning received and is still receiving and will hopefully receive once he's convicted

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

26. Tyrants have strong thumbs.......weak fingers.

[VanillaRhapsody]

28. Bradley Manning is Military...and there are much harsher punishment for breaking the law in the Army

that's the way it has always been. That's what Leavenworth is for. If you even get busted on a drug offense, or domestic violence....the military justice system is much more harsh than the civilian court system. Just saying....

[Katashi_itto]

39. And you don't think they won't simply declare him a terrorist or something?

[Progressive dog]

45. No they won't

They even tried the blind sheik in civilian court. They hate him so much, the prison makes special meals for him.

[MotherPetrie]

29. K&R (Except I kinda WOULD wish it on the bankers...)

[ProSense]

30. Snowden is going to be prosecuted.

Snowden is going to be prosecuted.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023068663

[cali]

33. see my post in your thread.

now do return to your crystal ball. it's looking a wee bit smudgy.

[ProSense]

34. See my response. n/t

[cali]

37. bwahahahaha.

you may be chomping at the bit for him to be extradited or even better from your pov kidnapped and brought back to the U.S."

...that's a weird straw man, must be that broken mind-reading machine you have.

I don't think like you. Such a thought would never enter my head. It explains a lot about you.

Are you actually going to claim that you don't want him extradited? Would it bother you at all if he was kidnapped and brought back?

You've made it clear that you want him prosecuted. No mind reading required.

No, thankfully we don't think alike- and then there's that I'm honest and you......?

[ProSense]

43. It's not

"You've made it clear that you want him prosecuted. No mind reading required. "

...not looking good.

Snowden spy row grows as US is accused of hacking China
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023068908

Yeah, I want him prosecuted, the rest of the stuff flowing from your imagination is pretty weird.

[cali]

49. not at all. your avidity is clear to everyone.

I'm hardly the only one who's noticed it.

[Rise Rebel Resist]

74. I'm chalking this up as

cali 1

prosense 0

[L0oniX]

81. +1

[Hissyspit]

76. Or not.

[fjlovato]

31. Insane

All of you are insane! You live in the same world as the Tea Party idiots where government is doing all kinds of evil things and you stand against it by making public your stupidity. This is supposedly a Democratic political post and you are turning into a laugh. Get lost and go stuck you thumb.

[cali]

35. could you kindly translate your word salad?

I do like the phrase "Get lost and go stuck you thumb" though. What does it mean?

[fjlovato]

40. answer

It means quit acting like a child - Sorry the "r" was missing in your - my bad typing.

[cali]

41. do elaborate. how am I acting like a child?

btw, hardly just a missing "r" in your garbled, nonsensical post.

[fjlovato]

78. Garbled

Sorry you think my response was garbled but the tone of the thread made so so damned mad I tripped all over my keyboard. "Acting like a child" means you and many of the others that responded to this crap have a hard time with reality. It appears that you and others like to think you are oppressed and the government is interested in what you think or do but get over it; you are not important enough to be spied upon. Children, because of their immaturity, often don't grasp reality but you Cali, should.

[cali]

82. whoosh. it appears you don't understand why people object to

their country becoming a corporate/government national security state.

Now why don't you go tell my Senators Leahy and Sanders that they're being childish? Or Valerie Plame? Or the ACLU? Or Senator Udall? Or Senator Wyden?

You are ignorant and ergo, hardly worth talking to.

[fjlovato]

85. The Point

Now that you have gotten to the point, I agree about the "corporate/government national security state" except for the "security" part which I thought was the point of this thread. I worked for NASA and the Navy in the computer field as a contractor and employee for my entire 50 year career. When you take an oath as a government employee or contractor, you cannot pick and choose what parts of the oath you will observe. This leak was not about what most people in government service do not know, it is about what path he took to get it out. There is the IG, the Justice Dept, and finally his or any congress person or staff person. Then he could have been free and clear rather than running away to China or Russia. If he and you do not trust the system and think there is no recourse, then be happy in your paranoia. I do take offense to "ignorant" part but be assured you shall not hear from me again.

[L0oniX]

83. Enjoy your stay.

[jsr]

32. I have no doubt Obama would have droned Snowden if feasible

Such a traitor, enemy of the state, unkempt housekeeper, high school dropout, boyfriend of pole dancer, Chinese spy, etc.

[HardTimes99]

36. Since the SCOTUS has now ruled that one's silence can be used against one, I

think they can waterboard him and use either his silence\death by drowning or his words against him in a show trial in a secret kangaroo court.

I share your hope.

Color me profoundly disgusted and dismayed at the actions of my government.

[Progressive dog]

42. If he's tried, the jury gets to decide on his guilt

It takes 12 out of 12 votes to find hm guilty. The defense even gets to help pick the jurors.

[cali]

44. that does not address my point about torture.

Do you support the torture of Bradley Manning?

[Progressive dog]

47. No, Bradley Manning is held by the military

Snowden s a civilian. That doesn't make the treatment of Manning right, but Snowden has been charged with civilian crimes.

[rhett o rick]

53. You are tiptoeing around a point here but I am not sharp enough to get it.

If you think he will get treated fairly by the DoJ and given a fair trial, why dont you just say that instead of telling us how many jurors he will have?

[Progressive dog]

55. No tiptoing, in fact the opposite

See, we seem to have a lot of people on her that think the DoJ gets to decide on guilt and sentence. They don't. Unlike China, we actually use random citizens on juries. If you need to have my view made plainer, just let me know.

[rhett o rick]

57. I am willing to bet that no one in DU believes that the DoJ decides on guilt and sentence. I bet

everyone knows about trials and how juries are selected. You underestimate DU posters.

[Progressive dog]

58. So this is an admission that you accused me of tiptoeing

because you wanted to dispute me and didn't know how.
Just to be very plain, I believe that Snowden will get a fair trial if he chooses to return from China, where, if he had done the same thing, he wouldn't have.

[rhett o rick]

59. Sorry, but I get tired of people posting some weird implication instead of coming forward with

their opinion. It appeared to me that by explaining the jury system to us you hoped we would see the light and realize that he could get a fair trial. I doubt he could get a fair trial.

[treestar]

52. Yep. This country's justice system is SO horrible.

I bet they have a better one, in , let's say, China.

[cali]

61. it's pretty bad. that it's better than China is hardly a ringing endorsement.

[kentuck]

50. One cannot get justice in a country that tortures and holds prisoners without charges...

...This is not the America that we grew up in.

[leveymg]

51. Snowden may well have a good asylum case under the Convention Against Torture.

The military went way overboard in the detention treatment of Manning and of its prisoners in Gitmo. We've lost credible claim we once had to the moral high ground on human rights issues, and that contributed to the decisions these guys made to dump docs and files proving it.

[Life Long Dem]

56. Snowden can have a fair trial and this won't help him.

[forestpath]

62. K&R

[nadinbrzezinski]

68. Hi, I guess we now agree

Not necessarily on whether he will be able to escape the court system...but that justice is not precisely what I expect for an enemy of the state. Not my words. The implication from the government types.

Peace.

[cali]

69. yes we do.

[nadinbrzezinski]

70. Peace.

on a whole different matter...you healed well, I hope.

[cali]

71. and peace to you too

thanks for the kind thought.

[cali]

75. neither you nor I know if he'd get a fair trial and I suspect

based on what this country has done in the recent past that he'd be mistreated or tortured in custody.

I'm still more concerned with the metastasizing of the national security state and all that brings with it.

[broadcaster75201]

77. Back atcha n/t

nt

[Harmony Blue]

86. Good post cali

Manning's torture will never be forgotten. We will never forget.