Coward!

[question everything]

Snowden, that is.

So he leaks U.S. secrets and escapes to... China? Russia? Two countries - among others - that, were he'd done the same thing, would now be facing a firing squad.

History is full of courageous men and women who stood up against tyranny and paid the consequences, often with torture and death.

We don't need to go too much back. Think of Tiananmen Square, think of the protestors in Tunisia and in Egypt.

But, no.... Snowden, and Assange, take outrageous steps and then run for the nearest hiding hole.

You are proud in what you've done - then stand up and face the consequence. If you face a trial - an open one, not a Chinese or a Russian one - you will even have a chance to express your opinions in front of the whole world.

In all the cases were courageous men and women stood up to tyranny and faced the consequences, they fought for individuals, for the underdogs. they are still being praised by the left.

That today so many on the left actually applaud this miserable coward is pathetic.

[Harmony Blue]

1. He is a hero beccause he gave up everything

a coward would be someone that is a bootlicker.

[randome]

5. That is your definition of a 'hero'?

Pretty low bar you've set. The guy's resume is a lie. You don't think he had some ulterior motive in mind when he leaked internal office documents? To China?

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]You should never stop having childhood dreams.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[Harmony Blue]

12. Giving up everything (selfish desires) for selfless goals makes him a hero

that is my definition and I am sticking by it.

[randome]

18. And no one does these things for other reasons, right?

Say, a bad need to be seen as a hero? Face it, his resume is a lie and it reflects the fact that he wants to be seen as more important than he truly is.

At least, that's my interpretation. But at least I will admit I can be wrong.

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]You should never stop having childhood dreams.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[TheMadMonk]

63. Shall with hold up a mirror to that argument,...

...and the thousands of foreign nationals the USA has encouraged to turn "traitor" over the past 70 years or so?

Perhaps it might be argued that Manning, Snowden and ten thousand nameless Russians, Eastern Blockers, Chinese and Cubans all simply wanted the same thing, an ETHICAL homeland, they could be proud of.

[randome]

66. Everyone has their own reasons for giving classified information to other countries.

Some noble, some not so noble.

I am still not going to believe Snowden's claims without some evidence.

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]You should never stop having childhood dreams.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[TheMadMonk]

68. This in indeed true. However, I find it offensive in the extreme...

...that your nation (and a good many DUers) claim the highest of moral high grounds for its own activities, but refuses the same courtesy to others.

Whether or not, you're willing to acknowledge a noble motivation in Mr. Snowden if sufficient evidence can be found in which to rub your nose, there are several individuals on this board who have made their position on this matter abundantly clear.

[randome]

70. I doubt there is a single country that has not been hypocritical and inconsistent.

And I do not believe the U.S. to be 'superior' to other countries. All I believe right now is that Snowden is likely not who he claimed.

I can well imagine other countries getting tired of being lectured by us, though, so it's understandable that they want to see our noses rubbed into this.

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]You should never stop having childhood dreams.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[question everything]

6. Like what? Sea and surf in Hawaii?

Freedom to move anywhere and express his thoughts?

[bahrbearian]

42. Right On. Lots of boot lickers out there.

[hobbit709]

2. Caca de vaca

[question everything]

13. No hablo espanol

(I think this is the correct sentence). Perhaps we need to split DU into English and Spanish versions.

Enjoy your smugness.

[hobbit709]

22. My question everything starts with you

and it's "No habla Espanol"

Here's another word for you "Dermo"

[question everything]

38. Have fun

So nice to go through life with simple pleasure. To cut farts, not to bother with - dare I say it? - intelligent, long sentences and rich vocabulary.

[hobbit709]

39. I don't waste my time trying to teach pigs to sing.

I have a very extensive, rich vocabulary but I only use it on those capable of comprehending it.

[bahrbearian]

43. But you seem to Sing very well.

[Gman]

14. Caca del Toro

[Scuba]

3. I miss the unrec button.

[Harmony Blue]

15. I believe Snowden is a hero

because what he did was for the public good and not about himself. It promotes a healthy democracy to have such transparency. You call him a coward because you disagree with his methods but you have not commented on what he has revealed yet. Isn't it cowardly the U.S. government is invading the privacy of innocent U.S. citizens and citizens around the world?

Lets have the debate but you may not have the mettle for it.

[backscatter712]

57. You're not here to debate. You're here to disrupt. n/t

[Electric Monk]

65. And now, they're simply not here in the thread anymore. The post you're replying to got hidden.

[backscatter712]

67. LOL! He disrupted poorly. n/t

[L0oniX]

84. +1

[randome]

4. But...he says the NSA can watch your thoughts form as you type.

Alas, poor question everything, I knew him/her well.

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]You should never stop having childhood dreams.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[question everything]

16. From where are you responding?

A hole in the ground into which you crawled, paranoid with fear?

I feel sorry for you. I have nothing to hide, as you can see here.

And, yes, I question the conspiracy theory and the paranoid fear that so many on DU and other places express.

[randome]

20. Sorry, I thought the sarcastic 'hue' of my post was evident.

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]You should never stop having childhood dreams.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[question everything]

40. Sorry. Am trying to move full speed aheard

[randome]

49. Understandable!

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]You should never stop having childhood dreams.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[Posteritatis]

7. You expect he'd get a sane trial? Your naivete is breathtaking. (nt)

[villager]

8. so you "question everything" except what the MIC tells you not to question?

How courageous.

[jsr]

19. +1984

[marmar]

75. Ooh, well played.

[randome]

24. But you'll believe Snowden without evidence.

The guy whose resume is a lie.

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]You should never stop having childhood dreams.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[villager]

26. So, first it's "we've known about these programs for years!," and then it's "no evidence!"

Whatever it takes, I guess, to stay in thrall to the shadow government.

[randome]

30. The only 'evidence' Snowden showed was the legal warrant regarding metadata.

And yes, we did know about that.

The validity of all his other claims depend on taking his word for it.

A man whose resume is a lie. A man who said he wasn't in Hong Kong to hide from justice.

Critical thinking skills are definitely needed to see what's going on here. I'll believe Snowden is the hero some want to portray him as -if he shows me some evidence.

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]You should never stop having childhood dreams.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[villager]

32. No, you will not believe anything that deviates from the official Executive Branch line

regardless of issue, evidence, former beliefs, etc.

[randome]

34. Sorry, you're wrong. I have no problem with saying I'm wrong. About anything.

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]You should never stop having childhood dreams.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[villager]

87. So... when have you ever said it?

[bahrbearian]

45. So why are you so frighten by Snowden?

[randome]

47. Not in the slightest frightened of him.

I want the truth, no matter where it leads. If Snowden can show evidence of his claims that the NSA has 'direct access' to all the Internet providers (all of whom say it's bullshit) or any of his other wild claims, I have no problem whatsoever in supporting him.

Right now, I don't see myself as supporting either him or the NSA. All I'm asking for is evidence before I start to panic.

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]You should never stop having childhood dreams.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[bahrbearian]

50. So you want truth but can't wait for it, because why?

[randome]

56. There is nothing to do BUT wait for more evidence, pro or con.

Right now, the evidence leads me to believe Snowden is not who he claimed to be.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023058698

I will refine, even reverse, that opinion as more evidence comes in.

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]You should never stop having childhood dreams.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[DesMoinesDem]

41. LOL. What a hilariously ironic post.

Snowden has provided no evidence. Top secret documents don't count.

His resume is a lie. I have never seen his resume and don't need to.



You live in some bizarro world.

[randome]

46. What evidence did he provide?

He showed us the warrant about the phone metadata, which was already known.

Sure, he showed other documents that indicate we are spying on China and Russia. Also already known.

What other evidence has he shown to indicate the NSA is 'spying on everybody'?

All the Internet providers say his claim of 'direct access' is bullshit.

Without evidence, it's normal to look at an accuser's character and motivations. Snowden's do not stack up well upon close scrutiny.

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]You should never stop having childhood dreams.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[DesMoinesDem]

52. I'm just laughing at how ironic your post is.

You don't think top secret NSA documents are evidence, and then in the next sentence call his resume a lie without even seeing it. You need more evidence than just documents, except when you need no evidence at all.

[randome]

55. DU is not a jury. We can look at anything and make assumptions and judgments.

Here is a good discussion about Snowden's resume. All I'm saying is he does not appear to be who he claimed.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023058698

More evidence means I will refine, even reverse, my opinion of him. But so far I don't think the man is trustworthy.

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]You should never stop having childhood dreams.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[backscatter712]

9. Not cowardice. Common sense.

The chickens are coming home to roost for the US government after their treatment of Bradley Manning.

When you put someone on "suicide watch", against the advice of psychiatrists, force him to strip and sleep naked, leave him in supermax isolation for 23 hours a day, forbid him from exercising, subject him to months and months of complete humiliation, this is what happens.

Snowden's damned well fucking smart to get out of Dodge after what happened to Manning.

You're asking Snowden to willingly submit himself to torture. Do you really think Snowden's that stupid?

[question everything]

23. And China and Russia are better?

I may have accepted your explanation had he fled to, say, Sweden, or Finland.

But escaping to totalitarian countries makes no sense.

[backscatter712]

25. Joe McCarthy, is that you? n/t

[H2O Man]

11. silly

[DisgustipatedinCA]

17. Human nature doesn't work the way you think it does. And coward doesn't mean what you think it means

It might be useful for you to examine why you feel so much personal hatred toward Snowden. You may find that it has something to do with uncomfortable truths threatening to change a worldview that you always saw as fixed.

[question everything]

33. There is nothing that changed the world I see

Perhaps because I took it for granted that communications were being monitored. In contrast to many, I know that my emails and phone calls are not being monitored, rather trends. No doubt, my logging into DU is recorded, someplace.

Even in the world of fast computers, it is physically impossible to monitor individual phone calls and emails, unless someone is already under suspicion.

I wish we had here a computer expert who could explain this. And then, he would be disregarded.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

21. I'm sure, once they have him custody, the TPB would be happy to give him press conferences.

Open to the public and the world press.

Right?

[question everything]

28. Do you really trust the authorities in China and in Russia?

Yes, he will have a press conference as long as the authorities will agree with what he says and the venues. For all they care, he could even lie and on one will be there to question him.

Do you really think that DU-like board exists in China and Russia that questions what comes from above?

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

35. "..as long as the authorities agree with what he says.."

Apparently, the authorities don't agree with he said previously, or might say elsewhere.

Thanks for your assistance in supplying more reasons for his flight.

[MotherPetrie]

27. Maybe you want to see Obama's DOJ railroad him... I don't.

[DirkGently]

29. Part of the point is that this information is wrongly called "Espionage."

This administration has an entire policy of bad-faith attacks on truth telling as "espionage" and the like. Ask Thomas Drake. Ask Bradley Manning.

The fact that Americans may now be eligible for political asylum on the basis their views are being falsely punished as traitorous speaks for itself.

The "cowards" here are those nakedly setting fire to their own supposed principles out of craven need to prostrate themselves before pointless partisanship.

And we all know it.

[Rise Rebel Resist]

37. expertly said

[backscatter712]

44. Exactly. The real cowards are the pieces of shit here that are already in my ignore list.

I guess the Fourth Amendment's too scary for these craven little quislings.

[rrneck]

31. Right or wrong he's playing it smart.

He knows the fight isn't over. He has to stay visible. If he gets locked up he goes into the memory hole and his message will be in the control of the jailer.

[Rise Rebel Resist]

36. God speed Snowden

[morningfog]

48. Sunlight is the best disinfectant.

"I firmly believe that Justice Louis Brandeis once said, that sunlight is the best disinfectant, and I know that restoring transparency is not only the surest way to achieve results, but also to earn back the trust in government without which we cannot deliver changes the American people sent us here to make."

President Obama

I agree with Obama. I won't call Snowden a hero. But, I applaud what he has done and hope for more releases of information.

[treestar]

51. You're right about the firing squad

Had he stayed here to face trial I'd have a different opinion of him, at least then he'd be sincere.

[DLevine]

53. He's certainly not a coward. Takes a lot of guts to do what he did.

The cowardly thing to do would have been to keep quiet & continue leading a comfortable life in Hawaii.

[pa28]

72. True, he gave up the good life on a matter of principle.

He perceived abuse and illegal activity and he gave up his entire future because he felt the story needed telling. Not a coward.

[LittleBlue]

54. Go spend the rest of your life like Manning, then call him a coward

And I'm going to say it.

You're just another internet tough guy. Given the choice, you wouldn't voluntarily accept life in prison. It's only because it's not your ass on the line that you're so bold.

Full of bluster and little else, thanks for sharing.

[kenny blankenship]

58. Well said!

[backscatter712]

59. +1. "question everything" is the real coward. n/t

[TheMadMonk]

60. You mean an open trial like Bradley Mannings?

A trial in which the defence is effectively forbidden to refer to the documents he is accused of revealing. A trial which is jam packed with things people are permitted to know, and things which they are forbidden know, despite the factual fact that EVERYONE ON THE FUCKING PLANET KNOWS, or can know with no more than a click of a mouse button.

A trial where his lawyers have been all but explicitly told, that if they mount a successful defence, they will be next.

Just how many Russian, Chinese and Cuban "traitors" has the USA harboured over the years? How many did it actively encourage to turn traitor?

FFS 90% of the outrage here about the whole Valerie Plame Affair, was the danger to people the US had successfully turned traitor against their own nations.


So, I suggest that the FIRST thing you question, is your idea that the US deserves special rights over the rest of the world. YOU DON'T!

If it's right for the US to turn foreign nationals, or to provide succour when they turn against their own nations of their own volition, then foreign nations and disgruntled Americans enjoy equal rights.

If you can't agree with that, then your patriotism my non-friend is 99% indistinguishable from that of a Teabagger. The sole difference lies in which American you think should be Lord and Master over me and the remaining 94% of the human race.

Either ALL action is fair in matters of international espionage, or ALL players must be equally fair held to equal standards in matters of international espionage. Anything else is not a whit different than Orwell's "Some animals are more equal than others."

Amerika uber alles, is an even greater a stain on the human psyche today, than Deutchland uber Alles was 70 years ago.

[still_one]

61. He is no coward, but he is no fu*kn hero either. He could have gone to plenty of Congress people,

such as Elizabeth Warren, Bernie Sanders, and a few others, but no, he wants to be big man on campus.

He signed certain agreements and oaths, and violated those oaths. As far as I am concerned his motivations are based on his libertarian philosophy.

I suspect wherever he ends up he will not have to worry about board and room, or even making a living.

[marions ghost]

62. Gen Alexander, is that you?

...all these Snowden haters around here are a good indicator of how a trial in the US would go for him...

He's already expressed his opinions in front of the whole world, FFS.

[Th1onein]

64. Yawn. Another "attack the messenger" post.

[GeorgeGist]

69. Like Gitmo.

[Puzzledtraveller]

71. The viceral and immediate contemp for this man Snowden by some is amazing

It's almost pathological, and that it's intensity has not waned is something to note. What is it about "him" that drives them crazy?

[Corruption Inc]

73. Do character assassinations much? LOL

How about the spying issue, any opinion?

You know what's really pathetic is the number of people claiming to be on the left who use right-wing smear tactics while ignoring the issues.

BYE.

[Puzzledtraveller]

74. Funny coming from someone named Question Everything

[leveymg]

76. Silly!

Snowden may be rightly called a lot of uncomplimentary things, but a coward? Try again.

[ZombieHorde]

77. Why would he do that?

Sacrificing himself won't bring more attention to the NSA thing. It's already basically world wide. Who would benefit by him turning himself in, and how would those people benefit?

[Vinnie From Indy]

78. And, the SOB had frickin' boxes in his garage!

A cowardly, box havin' bastard!

[Cha]

79. China was happy Snowden stopped by to hide for awhile.. and

Russia wouldn't mind taking a peek at his computers..

Julia Ioffe @juliaioffe

Russia: We kill our whistleblowers to make room for yours

Sam Stein ✔ @samsteinhp

Stephanie Cutter says al Qaeda is "passing around" Edward Snowden's power points.

http://theobamadiary.com/2013/06/23/chat-away-181/

Yay to the fucking "hero"..

Oh, and as to Ecuador.. where Leaker Snowden job wants to end up hiding..

Ecuador: Pres. Correa says he won't allow marriage or adoption rights for gays and will veto any gender identity laws

•He denied his government was pushing for marriage equality and highlighted the constitutional ban he once called unnecessary saying that no other type of partnership could ever be considered a marriage except for that between a man and a woman.

•He acknowledged there were current efforts in the national assembly to pass a gender identity law but mocked the legislator introducing the bill and promised to veto the bill if it ever reached his desk.

The shock and disappointment among leading Ecuadorian LGBT rights advocates was palpable on the social networks and many took to Twitter to demand an explanation from Correa on the eve of his inauguration.

http://blabbeando.blogspot.com/2013/05/ecuador-no-to-marriage-equality-no-to.html?spref=tw …

http://theobamadiary.com/2013/06/23/i-dare-not-linger-for-my-long-walk-is-not-ended/

What a putz.

[freshwest]

81. Cha, Animal Farm is owned by the darlings of the 1% whose media hates the ones you mentioned.

Last edited Mon Jun 24, 2013, 02:44 PM - Edit history (1)

They are invisible, they don't count. Our eyes are all diverted to 1% themes, with heroes from their class. If you ain't in the 1% you don't have any rights. And the mob goes along with it.

Those who worship the 1% manufactured heroes, the political equivalent of rock stars, don't care about the civil rights of those lower down in society. No, they care about 1% celebrities. That's all that is being played out, fame, fortune and the ifestyles of jet setters. Meant to be adored.

They matter, not those losing their civil rights or the rights to say how their bodies will be used. Or if their communities will be destroyed by the 1%. They accuse Obama of everything they have done to hurt people, when it is they who hurt the people he represents. The hate is not as much as about Obama as it is about us.

Rand Paul is the servant of the 1% and is loved because the media has made him golden. Just like Snowden. This for the man who holds budgets hostage to personhood bills, works to end abortion, the rights of gays to live their lives in peace and dignity, and Planned Parenthood.

He does not support my right to anything, not even to live. Those who love him do not love me. It's a hard thing to realize those who say they are your allies have given their allegiance to the 1% heroes. They have left the rest of us behind. They are proud of it and themselves.

The same Rand who says that companies should not have to pay taxes or clean up for industrial accidents that ruin people's lives, who wants the end of the DOE, the separation of church and state, the EPA, Social Security, aid to the poor in food, housing and healthcare, is not my friend.

But he is the friend of the 1% like Snowden and Assange, and will be defended as the Holy Grail. The 1% has taught people well, who is good and bad. They have forgotten the words of Malcolm X warning about the press telling us who to hate, that may be our best friend.

And so it goes. Another win for 1% media.

[Cha]

82. Excellent post.. "Manufactured hero" is right, fresh..

EXCLUSIVE: Snowden sought Booz Allen job to gather evidence on NSA surveillance

Edward Snowden secured a job with a US government contractor for one reason alone – to obtain evidence on Washington’s cyberspying networks, the South China Morning Post can reveal.

For the first time, Snowden has admitted he sought a position at Booz Allen Hamilton so he could collect proof about the US National Security Agency’s secret surveillance programmes ahead of planned leaks to the media.

“My position with Booz Allen Hamilton granted me access to lists of machines all over the world the NSA hacked,” he told the Post on June 12. “That is why I accepted that position about three months ago.”

During a global online chat last week, Snowden also stated he took pay cuts “in the course of pursuing specific work”.

His admission comes as US officials voiced anger at Hong Kong, and indirectly Beijing, after the whistle-blower was allowed to leave the city on Sunday.

Snowden is understood to be heading for Ecuador to seek political asylum with the help of WikiLeaks, which claimed to have secured his safe passage to the South American country

http://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/article/1268209/exclusive-snowden-sought-booz-allen-job-gather-evidence-nsa

Just verifying what we already thought from the timeline.

h/t http://theobamadiary.com/2013/06/24/oh-my/#comments

[freshwest]

86. No wonder the1% and their allies are so bold everywhere. The medium is the massage, always has been.

And we don't control any of it. What's being spewed affects my life and those I care about directly. We're the invisible ones who will never get the loving media coverage the 1% heroes get.

As far as most people are concerned, we are simply taking up space that could be filled better by the class of people with the luxury of standing back and mocking us while the government that generations of us created is dismantled by the 1%.

American political punditry knows who pays their way, and know they must edit their opinion to fit that, to go with the 1% meme, which is to destroy Obama and the Democratic Party, and the framework we seek to protect.

PBS had to do it for the Koches, but that was bald faced threats they were facing. Those in media who make millions to push the 1% meme, do it with a variety of ways, and the highest paid, like Rush, Beck, O'Reilly, etc, do it with a vigor that others only wish they could project.

The left, quote, unquote, who are now open to admit they are libertarians, have to find a way to get that money, too. So they are. And they do their work well for the 1% to bring down any opposition to their masters. They bring the knife to the back of those they pretend to care about.

I'd rather just have the honest of the right than what I'm seeing, the wolves in the sheepskin, rending us. They will soon take off their masks, let us know where they stand, as their position is the same.

I supported someone here in his election campaign, who is now blaming Obama for his losses, due to listening to people. The people he talked to were teabaggers or the 'left.' They parroted all the media themes, and were all anti-Obama. They were low-info voters who didn't look any farther than what they were told, what they could easily be incited to believe, and like fish in the ocean, didn't realize the water had been polluted, and they were channeled into thinking what the 1% wanted. He didn't consider that.

The reality that some of us know, is not getting through, Cha. The Koches own the media, and it will serve them. Sad state of affairs when the 'left' becomes as fact free and as emotionally driven as the right.

[mhatrw]

80. Yeah! He needed to stay and be made an severe example of, just in case any

other whistle blowers get any ideas!

[L0oniX]

83. YAwn

[WillyT]

85. You Should Change You Handle...

To: question everything except the government