A reminder, none of this hot and heavy discussion would be possible, were it not for

[silvershadow]

the eavesdropping apparatus put in place prior to 9/11 by Buschco. If Obama goes down for this (and he might), so should Bush (whether Obama goes down or not, Bush won't-that's how it works). Nothing I have said here should be construed as support for either side of the case. Since we have only very vague details or what is really going on, I have yet to feel too comfortable making a public opinion on Snowden (especially on DU). Heck, I have no clue what is going on, and neither do you. I will probably wait several years before the next person leaks a little more to kind of fill in some blanks. Back to my original point, Bush was collecting too, prior to 9/11. Too bad he couldn't sift through all that data to stop 9/11, he might have been able to pick up the hotline to Saudi Arabia, er, I mean Afghanistan, er I mean Iraq, er....

[dkf]

1. It's not right no matter who does it, Bush or Obama or Russia or China or the UK.

[Cooley Hurd]

2. I really, really, REALLY DON'T want Obama to "go down" for this. I want him to CORRECT this!

I hired him (as we all hired him) to correct this!!!

[dipsydoodle]

4. That's fair comment

and what any reasonable person would have expected.

[SidDithers]

3. Is this another pre-impeachment thread?...nt

Sid

[Cooley Hurd]

5. I don't think so Sid...

It's one, of many, threads that just want the President WE voted for to right a big fucking wrong.

[silvershadow]

8. No, it isn't. It's another thread where I post my opinion and you ignore it at your own peril. nt

[Politicalboi]

6. An Illegal War

Torture, Lying, Outing a CIA agent, 9/11, and you think Bush is going to get his coming ups too?

We are the ones sinking our chance in 2014 by guessing what's really going on. The GOP will use this and probably win in 2014, and the Dem's will sit back and say, "oh well, we deserved it, Obama was spying on us, and he didn't stop it". And when Hillary runs in 2016, I wouldn't be surprised if it were found out that Bill Clinton was the one who started ALL this shit. Yeah, that's the ticket.

[silvershadow]

7. Laugh at your own risk. The Democratic establishment won't be. If the R's win it will be D's fault

nt

[RainDog]

9. Obama shouldn't be the one held accountable for this

If Bush could break the law, if Poindexter could put the apparatus of a totalitarian state in place, if Cheney and Rumsfeld could gin up fake intel to justify an invasion of Iraq...

THERE'S NO FUCKING WAY Obama should be held accountable, in terms of any sort of hearing about HIS actions - beyond, perhaps, the reality that none of the above had their balls nailed to the wall for their actions.

If Republicans want to go there - BRING IT, BASTARDS.

Let's get this out in the open - I'm ALL for that.

But to try to spin this as a political issue of one party or the other is laughable.

This is about the abuse of power by bureaucracies in the govt. that exist and abuse power no matter which party controls what branches.

We saw that during the Bush years and we're seeing it now.

I say it's time for another "Church Committee" hearing to reveal what Republicans were doing during the Bush era and how Obama tried to bring those abuses of power within the realm of legal activity.

The goal is to stop intel agencies and PRIVATE CONTRACTORS from using their power to blackmail politicians, journalists, etc. etc. who try to stop the corporate and political clusterfuck that is America since Reagan.

[silvershadow]

10. It seems not all at DU agree with you, or me, or each other. To quote Dwight Eisenhower,

- wait, on second thought, I won't quote anyone.

[RainDog]

11. this has been a low point for DU, imo n/t

[silvershadow]

12. without a doubt. nt

[marions ghost]

13. You "will wait several years before

the next leaker fills in some blanks" for you.... ???

You DO like the status quo.

[silvershadow]

14. No, I am just guessing that it will be several more years before another leaker dares show his face.

(I'm trying to couch many of my real feelings after the fiasco yesterday here. Still looking for the DU Annex, or some such forum, lest I be berated for having an opinion that goes against the grain of any potential "jurors", God bless them.) I do not like the status quo, but if DU is any indication of the real state of the party these days, I would say grim times are ahead- not only for the country, but for the party as well.

[marions ghost]

15. Grim times are ahead

if someone who informs the world of a covert government activity against American citizens and others in the world--is made to be an enemy of the state.

Don't you agree that grim times are ahead if we don't roll back the multiple excesses and insults of Booshcheney? This being an unimaginable result of that criminal administration's actions?

We can't depend on whistle blowers to right things. Why should we be put in that position? We (the People) need real oversight, transparency & consumer protection. We NOW know how much we need protections from our own government, if we didn't before.

[silvershadow]

16. The USA, as i knew it, ceased to exist on or about mid-December, 1999.

That is what brought me to DU. I know my profile says I've been here since 2004, but that isn't true. I joined on the first or second day of operation, in a different incarnation (long story). We can't depend on whistleblowers, yet that is all we have, it seems. Instead of being protected by the WPA, they seem to be hunted down and charged, from what I have seen. We live in an Orwellian Corporatocracy imho.

[marions ghost]

17. About WPA--

Could you explain that in one sentence (for Dummies)?

[silvershadow]

18. Whistleblower Protection Act is what i meant, though I don't actually know what it is called or

contains exactly. The point is, you can't just depend on that to get the job done...it is not enough to protect the country, the democratic republic, our nation. We as citizens must be informed, educated, vigilant. I just am not sure what that means at this point, which is what "they" count on. Now that we have secret courts, and secret acts, it is truly a whole new world. One I *never could have imagined. How do we deal with it? That is the big debate that has been going on. I suppose it is the only debate big enough to divert our attention from "Who took the money?" and "How are they looking to take more?" Am I cynical? You bet! Do I have valid reasons to be? You bet! Will it matter in the end? Nah, they will win. It would take a revolution of sorts, and if it gets to that, i am one hundred percent positive it wouldn't end well, for anyone. So, yep, they will win. There aren't enough persons of courage in Washington to do what really needs to be done. Off the top of my head, on this issue, Ron Wyden comes to mind.

[NightWatcher]

19. This was in place well before 9/11

Remember that GHWB was head of the CIA before Carter had him replaced. Poppy had his fingers in intel sneaky business and his pals like Baker III used DARPA to get things going a long time before 9/11

This is not new at all. Obama didn't do it, shrub didn't start it, Clinton was no stranger to it.....

[silvershadow]

20. Exactly! This goes waaaaay back. As a side note, you can count me among those

"conspiracy theorists" who ponders ideas such as "Is JFK's assassin still alive?" and "Does Poppy know him?" You are right, and GHWB is one of the creepiest, sneakiest persons ever in my book- seems to slither like a snake into everything. I will be glad when their dynasty finally dies. Btw, in my OP I mentioned how Bush was collecting intel prior to 9/11. That was a tip of the hat to those here at DU that dug into that story years ago. It probably got relegated to the Creative Speculation forum, as if it were some kind of fantasy, who really knows? But it was uncovered that the data-mining was already being set up by the big carriers before 9/11 even occurred. So 9/11 was just the "reason" for the actions it seems. Don't know. But that's where my head is at, and has been. If that makes me a conspiracy theorist, then so be it. There are plenty of conspiracies, that's for sure. I really have no use for the Clintons now, their time has passed for me, unless Hillary takes a dive off a cliff into the liberal waters, or maybe Chelsea turns out to be a true blue liberal? Who knows. I'm more interested in fixing what is wrong before it is too late too- and that time is mighty close.