The longer Snowden is on the run, the more public opinion will turn against him

[npk]

It has already begun with social media. Twitter and Facebook have already started the process of destroying Snowden's character. The press is of course making up for lost time by trying to discredit the importance of what Snowden did, while at the same time calling him a dangerous, treasonous "criminal" who is now running like a scared dog. What's odd is that in the past it was the government itself that had to do the arduous legwork of discrediting and destroying the character of those accused of leaking documents showing the evidence of "possible" unethical or unconstitutional actions by our government. But now the government can keep their hands clean by allowing cyberspace and the new, retrofitted media, do their job for them.

Snowden will soon be marginalized and viewed as a pariah, his name will become just another footnote in history of anti-american traitors, but not for exposing what the government was doing and trying to do, but because he made the United States look bad, and at the same time made the US look weak.

Now much if not all of the focus is on Snowden and not what he leaked. Just like the government wanted.

[Harmony Blue]

1. World public opinion

will side with him the more he defies the U.S.

Snowden is a hero.

[blkmusclmachine]

9. +1

[Catherina]

2. Omg! Thanks for the laugh!

If the US looks bad or weak, that's on the US. IT IS WHAT IT IS. And our government spent years, DECADES, getting here.

This isn't about Edward Snowden.

[npk]

7. You're kidding yourself if you don't think this is as much about Snowden, than what he showed us.

Just look at how people have gone after his character, calling him uneducated and unfriendly. The man has been marginalized already and he never should have been.

[truebluegreen]

10. They have gone after his character because they are trying to make it about him.

It isn't.

[Catherina]

12. I misundertood your intent here. My apologies

But I differ. I don't think Snowden will soon, or ever be marginalized and viewed as a pariah.

Our government is trying hard but they're marginalizing themselves on the world stage.

Now that I reread your post, I see what you're saying and apologize for jumping on you.

I don't think Snowden will ever be just a footnote in history. This thing has barely begun which is why our government, and its pundits, are flipping out this spectacularly.

This isn't about Snowden. It's about rights and giving all our money to protect the capital of the 1%. I still disagree with your phrasing,

[Katashi_itto]

24. This is just the tip of the Iceberg and the world is waking up to that.

Here's what Edward Snowden told the world:


“We hack network backbones — like huge Internet routers, basically — that gives us access to the communications of hundreds of thousands of computers without having to hack every single one.”
Actually, it's hundreds of millions of computers, and billions of phone calls, that are routed through the NSA's data collection traps -- from every corner of the world -- every minute of the day. Even though most of them are not communicating to anyone in the US, the Internet's current architecture allows the NSA to capture them all. Potentially, that means every single soul on earth who uses electronic communication is being tracked.

Other nations understood this immediately. They are well aware that their citizens have been caught in the illegal NSA dragnet. This is a completely unacceptable act by the US -- just as it would be if the world's Internet backbone was located in Russia and Moscow was mining the rich personal data of every American citizen.

The United States has inadvertently declared itself to be a rogue, predatory Police State. When the story broke, officials in European capitals demanded immediate answers from their US counterparts and denounced the practice of secretly gathering digital information on Europeans as unacceptable, illegal and a serious violation of basic human rights.

There were heated and outraged discussions at the G-8 summit in Ireland. Eric Holder was flown to Brussels for questioning by the European Union. When Holder left, they were even more outraged. The Germans openly liken the United States actions to the actions of the Cold War-era Stasi.

[Catherina]

37. No arguments there Katashi_itto

I simply take exception to any minimization of Snowden's role in this. There are 1.4 million people walking around with Top Secret clearances today. Multiply that by years and then multiply that by how this is playing on the world stage. In 10 years, the footnotes are going to be the names of the Game of Eight, Pelosi, Reid and crew.

Based on what you wrote, I don't think we disagree on much but god the meme about Snowden, popularity, polls might as well be in bright neon blue. It's coming straight from the White House.

This isn't about Snowden but they tried to make it into that and now Snowden's fame is growing all over.

[Katashi_itto]

47. I agree wholeheartedly. Snowden is simply a blind.

They seriously miscalculated the amount of blowback thats going to occur.

[aquart]

81. When?

[Katashi_itto]

83. What?

[aquart]

84. When is the blowback going to occur?

[Katashi_itto]

87. Your asking me to predict?

Well, Look how Snowden is moving around within countries that have "extradition treaties" with us.

The Germans are busy comparing us to the Stasi.

Holder was flown to Europe to answer questions, well more like deny.

The NSA is a direct threat to Capitalism. The government can now take ideas and innovations from the worlds non-white population and redistribute them to white American males. According to Bloomberg:

"technology, finance and manufacturing companies are working closely with U.S. national security agencies, providing sensitive information and in return receiving benefits"

A crisis is highly likely. Much of American industry has come to center around Intellectual Property. If America has the ability to steal ideas from foreign people and quite possibly domestic ones, why should any foreign government honor American IP? This cannot end well.

Give it time. Things like this are slow sesmic shifts in perception.

[DeltaLitProf]

66. A lot of this has later been shown to be exaggerated.

You say he showed that "we hack network backbones" but the Washington Post was unable to corroborate this and later corrected its lead story that contended this. Subsequently we got denials from these services, google, facebook, etc that any such hacking had taken place and got releases of records of numbers of cases in which those services provided info. No wholesale hacking of entire networks.

If foreign nationals can be shown to be engaging in suspicious activity, the NSA goes to a FISA court and gets a warrant. You may think as I do that the FISA court has granted too many of these, but the seeking of and winning of a warrant from a judge makes the surveillance constitutional. Read the fourth amendment.

The US has made so such declaration of its being a rogue police state. The surveillance of world leaders at the G8 is done by the CIA. And that indeed does merit our outrage. No warrants likely sought or received there.

Snowden revealed nothing new. Greenwald has said over and over again he has documents Snowden gave him. He has not released a single one yet. So far all we have from Snowden are statements. And in his other life choices he has shown himself to be a source we should be skeptical of.

[Katashi_itto]

76. If he's revealed nothing new, why is it such a big deal?

[Downwinder]

30. They have to say something and

if that is the best NSA can do it says a whole lot. Remember, these are the people who know the dirt on everyone. They are professionals.

[aquart]

79. Why not? What would you trust him with?

[npk]

91. I'm not saying that I trust him either

I don't trust anybody in our government. However, my distrust is not the same as being paranoid that government has my phones tapped or somebody wearing a black hat is following me while I walk from my work to the bus stop late at night. I know that quite frankly everyone lies, politicians have a more guarded interest to lie. I do believe that what was on those power points was not a lie, and what we shown by the Guardian about the Prism program was true. I have no problem separating the man (Snowden) from the story (Prism) and understanding that the most important thing is what evidence he has, not what he says or does.

[JaneyVee]

3. Running off to the worlds worst places for human rights violations isn't helping either.

[Kolesar]

5. Putin just wants to tweak us so that he looks tough to his people

...and win another election.

[truebluegreen]

13. We really shouldn't be complaining about other places'

violations of human rights.

Just as it is pathetic that Snowden is charged with espionage but the NSA? Not so much.

.
.
3
2
1
"But what the NSA did was legal!

[JaneyVee]

15. We should always complain about other places human rights violations.

[dkf]

17. Easier when you are a true beacon of freedom...Not so much when you are authoritarian surveillance

state.

We've lost the moral high ground. Stupid.

[JaneyVee]

27. Our surveillance state pales in comparison to every country Snowden has stepped in, including

Ecuador, if that's where he's planning on going.

[dkf]

31. Not in its scale or capability.

[JaneyVee]

40. No for scale, yes for capability, but theres are for much more nefarious reasons.

Last edited Sun Jun 23, 2013, 08:41 PM - Edit history (1)

[nadinbrzezinski]

46. This s some funny shit

You are telling me Correa is having citizens tortured and has been starting wars of aggression? In an alternate time line, possibly.

[JaneyVee]

49. Did you reply to the wrong post? My post is addressing surveillance.

[deurbano]

54. You said we should always speak out about other places' human rights violations...

in a post that was part of this short conversation, so nadinbrzezinski was probably responding to that part of the conversation.

[JaneyVee]

55. Oh, responded to wrong post I guess. Yes, I stand by my statement.

[deurbano]

58. You can still answer him/her, if you want; it's part of the same discussion.

[truebluegreen]

18. OK.

Assuming we will complain at equal volume about our own.

[JaneyVee]

28. We do. Loudly & often.

[HangOnKids]

35. Why does your profile stand in dark contrast to your posts?

I find it interesting Janey.

[JaneyVee]

42. Being against Human rights violations is no dark contrast to my profile.

[HangOnKids]

45. blah blah blah

I have read your posts and looked at your profile, sorry not buying it.

[JaneyVee]

48. Not buying what?

[HangOnKids]

73. Gee Janey Maybe Tupperware Or Amway

Or it could be Mary Kay. Do you have a problem with that?

[SidDithers]

85. How many different profiles have you had, Binka?...

It's up to 3 now, isn't it?

MaryT
Binka
HangOnKids

Right?

Sid

[truebluegreen]

63. Not officially.

Officially, we sweep ignore them.

[iemitsu]

21. Do we really know that these places are the worst human

rights violators? Or is that something we believe because we were told that that was the case?
I remember when the only photos of the Soviet people we were ever shown, were of heavily outfitted, military brass on parade or of middle aged, potato-shaped characters, in speedos, sunbathing on the Neva. All looked lifeless and drab.
I have dozens of Russian students in my classes and they all look like Swedish models. Who were their parents?

[JaneyVee]

26. Hi, Russian here myself. Yes, horrific human rights violations. (no matter how good looking we are)

[nadinbrzezinski]

50. The Russians had (and still do) some horrific records

We used to have some ground to stand on and be critical of it, if we ignored the school of the America's and a few other things.

Over the last ten years those monsters we created during the Cold War have come home. Some examples, torture and rendition.

[iemitsu]

65. I'm sure you're right about the Soviet Union and human rights abuses.

You are also right that for us to be critical required that we ignore some of our own behavior and that our trained Cold Warriors are back home haunting us today.
Always good to hear from you.
I hope all is well.

[DeltaLitProf]

67. I recommend you click on over to Amnesty International's site

. . . and take a look at their annual reports on China, Russia, Cuba and Ecuador.

[aquart]

80. Pretty equals good and worthy?

There have been some really good-looking torturers.

[jsr]

4. This country was founded by people who fled their countries

[FarCenter]

19. Only 9 of the 55 framers of the constitution were born outside of the US.

[FirstLight]

6. you last sentence nails it

I keep wondering why even here at DU it seems like many are 'against' him and hoping he's turned away from these countries... why?

If *I* was responsible for leaking information the US Govt didn't want out there, and I knew the govt had the power to not only trace my communications but probably to disappear me if needs be...I would have left the country and would be playing the same game hopping planes as well.

In our entertainment based world that seeks to know everyone's sordid past and takes such pleasure in revealing people's blemishes for others amusement...I am not surprised that it comes down to character assassination.

as for the focus shifting to the person and NOT the information... mission accomplished. (Our idiocracy can't handle those big words and legal stuff anyway...now back to our regularly scheduled program)

[morningfog]

8. Not if he keeps releasing and talking.

[Luminous Animal]

11. Twitter has been overwhelmingly positive...

And there is quite a bit of mocking of the U.S. from around the globe.

https://twitter.com/search/realtime?q=%23snowden&src=typd

[dipsydoodle]

14. Dream on

.

[iemitsu]

16. The process you describe as "social media, the press, and public sentiment",

is part of the government response to Snowden's revelations.
On DU, facebook, twitter, the television, and from the mouths of characters we trust come the condemnations of Snowden and his actions. Counterintelligence, in this case, undermine the credibility of the target using trusted and familiar voices. When Ed Schultz says he believes Obama and not Snowden, many will question the doubts they entertained about the good old U S of A.

[GoneFishin]

22. I generally like Ed. But when his successful weekday program was moved to the

weekend I couldn't help to think that he was being chastised by the network for some reason, despite his assurances to the contrary. This also makes me say hmmm.

[iemitsu]

64. My sentiments exactly.

I like Ed Schultz and I try to remember that we don't know what sorts of pressure is put on characters like him. For all we know he could be a victim of the security state himself.

[disidoro01]

20. If

he has as much information as purported, he will stay visible. Regardless, he will stay in the public eye more than Bradley Manning. Who is that you say? Look it up, you'll be surprised at what a democratic country does to it's whistleblowers. You'll also be surprised on how quickly people turn on a whistleblower when he casts doubts on the administration.

[randome]

25. Not 'whistleblower'. 'Leaker'. Words have specific legal meanings.

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]You should never stop having childhood dreams.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[disidoro01]

29. Not

a lawyer and do not care about the foolish semantics. Again, look up what Bradley Manning has gone through. That is what this country does to people who shed light on our behaviors.

[randome]

32. Bullshit. The judge ruled that Manning's treatment was 'excessive'.

But he was also on suicide watch. You have to admit the guy was a bit unbalanced after punching his commanding officer and being found curled up on the floor in a fetal position after having carved the words "I want" into a chair.

Do I think he deserved 'excessive' treatment? No.

It's the lawyers that care about 'foolish semantics'. And that's how the rule of law is done, like it or not.

Manning was an idiot for dumping all that data to Wikileaks.

Since Greenwald admits to talking with Snowden before Snowden started at the NSA, it sounds like they cooked this up together from the start.

A couple more idiots.

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]You should never stop having childhood dreams.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[disidoro01]

77. Him

and his lawyer fought this, there was no evidence put forward to prove this.
Made up garbage is all. You are your "government needs to operate in secret" BS needs to come to an end. You believe that those two conspired but the government has no blame?

[randome]

23. He knows when people start asking questions about his resume that the jig is up.

He didn't get the 'Messiah's Welcome' he expected so now he's running scared.

His actions do not seem like those of a 'hero to me.

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]You should never stop having childhood dreams.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[Downwinder]

34. His resume is Government approved and authenticated.

[randome]

36. Don't think for a moment I am defending the government. I'm not.

I'm calling out Snowden & Greenwald for how I see them.

Here is a good discussion about Snowden's resume. It was vetted by another contracting arm of Booz Allen!
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023058698

Geeze, the privatization madness needs to stop. But it looks very much as if Snowden lied, maybe even using his parents' previous contracting postiions as leverage, to get into the NSA.

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]You should never stop having childhood dreams.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[Downwinder]

38. I have had a security clearance, you don't lie there.

[DeltaLitProf]

68. So all security clearances work the same?

Does a prospective employee for Booz Allen get the same going-over as a prospective employee for NSA or CIA?

Don't different grades of security clearance get you different grades of investigation prior to your approval?

[Downwinder]

72. I was prior to contractors. J assume all Top Secret

Federal or Contract would be the same. Secret is a little less intensive. Either one would check the particulars of someones history.
It is not something taken lightly. I still have my materials hand receipts from 50 years ago.

[Tx4obama]

39. Former background investigator pleads guilty

Former background investigator pleads guilty

WASHINGTON (AP) -- A former investigator who worked for the firm that conducted a background check on ex-National Security Agency analyst Edward Snowden has pleaded guilty to charges of falsifying work on background investigations of other federal workers.

Ramon Davila (rah-MOHN' DAH'-vee-lah) pleaded guilty Thursday to making a false statement. He did not work on the Snowden background investigation.

Davila worked for three contractors that did federal background checks on behalf of the Office of Personnel Management's Federal Investigative Services. One of those was USIS, which conducted the background investigation of Snowden. Snowden admitted disclosing previously secret NSA programs.

-snip-

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_NSA_SURVEILLANCE_BACKGROUND_CHECKS?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

[Downwinder]

41. Ramon Davila (rah-MOHN' DAH'-vee-lah) pleaded guilty

Thursday to making a false statement. He did not work on the Snowden background investigation.

[idwiyo]

52. " He did not work on the Snowden background investigation." Nice try though!

From your own post:

Ramon Davila (rah-MOHN' DAH'-vee-lah) pleaded guilty Thursday to making a false statement. He did not work on the Snowden background investigation.

[randome]

57. So what? Snowden likely had help forging his resume.

And now the firm that validated him is shown to have 'cheated' in another case. It's not looking good for Snowden from the standpoint of a loner who 'saw things', especially since Greenwald already admitted talking with Snowden before this latest gig at the NSA.

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]You should never stop having childhood dreams.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[idwiyo]

60. If anything it just highlights total incompetence of US government.

[randome]

61. It's the privatization bullshit.

Which stems, again, from the insane desire to stop spending money! We need more federal employees who are directly accountable, not farm everything out to consulting firms.

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]You should never stop having childhood dreams.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[idwiyo]

62. Well, you should be grateful that Snowden decided to come forward. :)

I am totally happy that he forced a nice cat fight between two branches of UK spies. If nothing else at least it does provide a good entertainment. And it embarrassed my government. And yours.
And hopefully had some people stop drinking Kool-Aid.

[Rise Rebel Resist]

74. tut tut shills don't have the time to read what hand pick links they post

[pnwmom]

33. If he keeps releasing documents that damage our diplomatic standing around the world,

like releasing documents about China when Obama's talking to the Chinese, or about Russia when Obama's talking to Putin, yes, public opinion will continue to swing against him.

He had a legitimate issue when he was focused on internal US surveillance. Now he appears, more and more, simply to be on a power trip, looking for was much attention and power as possible.

[DeltaLitProf]

69. He has not released a single document as yet.

And I don't think he'll be doing that unless pressure is applied to him by host governments hostile to the US.

Then he'll likely release them.

[pnwmom]

70. He's been sharing them with the Chinese newspaper.

I don't have the trust in him that you do. He didn't take thousands of documents just to sit on them.

[aquart]

82. The FISA warrant is from his orientation?

Sticky-fingered from Day One?

[randome]

86. Exactly. And since Greenwald let it slip that he'd been in touch with Snowden in February...

...before Snowden started at the NSA, this whole thing looks like something they cooked up from the very start.

Snowden said he "saw things" but he was a Systems Administrator, not an Intelligence Analyst so he wasn't in a position to "see things". Plus he won't tell us what "saw things" means.

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]You should never stop having childhood dreams.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[nadinbrzezinski]

43. Read this from Reuters

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/06/23/us-usa-security-obama-analysis-idUSBRE95M0HL20130623

It has clues in there as to why they are going after the footnote in the grand history book.

Oh and I said the same in the morning

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023075048

[cali]

44. The United States has made itself look bad by doing horrible evil shit things all over the world

and that's not even open for debate.

[snagglepuss]

51. I bet Oliver Stone is already writing hte script for this movie.

Snowden will be immortalized and rightly so.

[Catherina]

75. I bet he is too. He already called him a hero. My vote is for Ed Norton to play him n/t

[WovenGems]

53. Run Bambi Run!

Remember? How long did she run?

Keepin' it real.

[carolinayellowdog]

56. Time found 54% approved of what he did, 58% thought it was a crime

so we in the US have some ambivalence, but I don't think the rest of the world has very much, nor can US attempts to smear him influence world opinion

[deurbano]

59. Since it doesn't appear that Russia or Cuba are Snowden's intended destination...

but just places to change planes without (hopefully) getting sent back to the US.... the focus (for smearing purposes) should be on what a hypocritical loser/traitor/opportunist/fame seeker/whatever-might-stick he is for fleeing to Ecuador.


http://www.forbes.com/sites/jacquelynsmith/2013/01/04/the-10-best-countries-to-retire-to-in-2013/
("[Ecuador is] The top spot for North American retirees, according to InternationalLiving.com’s newly-released Annual Global Retirement Index 2013.&quot


http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/18/world/americas/rafael-correa-wins-re-election-in-ecuador.html

(This is a response to the whole thread, not the OP.)

[Fire Walk With Me]

71. The more the US pursues him while utterly ignoring the crimes of wall street and the banksters

who nearly collapsed the economy in 2008 and who under Obama continue to rake in billions of taxpayer dollars in handouts, the more I know Snowden is right and the US government, corrupt and deserving of any and all transparency forced upon them.

[snagglepuss]

88. BINGO

[AnotherMcIntosh]

78. You wish.

[SidDithers]

89. DU Rec...nt

Sid

[Ganja Ninja]

90. Frankly I don't think people give a crap one way or the other.

People on all sides of the political spectrum are distrustful of government. They trust the government to collect their personal data and then have it leaked or stolen. They trust them to fuck up a wet dream. That's about all they trust in them. What Snowden did pales in comparison to what the Russians & the Chinese and even our own allies do on a regular basis. We're great at collecting data, so so at processing and understanding it and terrible when it comes to protecting it. Government is fucked up and people are use to it. The only people who are up in arms about this are people with a political axe to grind.