Fine, you love Edward Snowden and are ready to put his face on Mount Rushmore

[maxrandb]

are you willing to see some serious international incident stuff, or possibly a bloody war with Russia?

Because, if you think that Edward Snowden really has the location and identities of all of our CIA agents throughout the world, or more damaging national security information on the 4 laptops he stole and spirited out of the country, then you would have to also concede that both the Chinese and Russian intelligence agencies have copied those hard drives, and any info he had, they now have.

Should the unthinkable happen, and the Russians decide to let him board a flight to Cuba, or Ecuador, I will make a prediction....That plane never lands in Cuba or Ecuador with Mr. Snowden onboard. Do you honestly think that we are going to take that slap in the face from China and Russia laying down? Do you think we should? Should we allow Russia and China to allow those under a felony indictment to simply travel at will?

No, my prediction is that plane will be met by some FA-18s somewhere over international waters, and they will be forced to land somewhere where Mr. Snowden can be removed from the plane for further travel back to the United States. If that happens, we are dealing with an international incident, more serious than some we've fought wars over in the past.

I know some of you think this is some kind of After School Special, but this is some serious international stuff we are dealing with.

If you gave a shit about Snowden, or cared to have this NSA program get it's day in court, then you would join me in urging him to return voluntarily to the United States, and you would demand that the Wiki-what-the-fucks, stop screwing with the sovereignty of the United States.

Makes me wonder just who in the fuck put Snowden, Greenwald, or Wikileaks in charge of our foreign policy.

[flamingdem]

1. Obama + others are too smart to use the military for this

They will not risk hurting others, imo.

They're using diplomatic pressure, I mean vice like pressure, and will have to accept the results

[sibelian]

2. 1 guy with 1 thumb drive.

Hmmmmmm.

[Puzzledtraveller]

9. Funny, at first we were told that he didn't leak anything we didn't already know

or that he was full of it and didn't have anything, now he is the greatest threat to our national security and needs to be forced down by F-18's.

[okaawhatever]

50. That is true. What he leaked about the information gathering is nothing new. He claims to have over

1,000 pages of documents. He claimed in his first interview to have info on all of our spies and foreign assets. Like I said when it happened, that claim made him wanted by just about every country in the world. So laugh if you want, he didn't reveal anything about privacy that hadn't already been written about. He does have a lot of additional info that could do a great deal of harm. I'm glad you find it funny that our foreign assets and agents are likely compromised. It shows exactly the kind of person supports Snowden.

[Puzzledtraveller]

66. Okay, I'll accept your invitation

[frazzled]

12. Four laptop computers full, according to him

or his Wikileaks spokespersons, or whomever. Where did you get "1 thumb drive"?

Of course, Snowden appears to be such a liar, who knows? But that's what he's said he as (4 computers full), so we'll have to take him at his word.

[Progressive dog]

34. Probably his retirement fund

will be filled by selling the data to the highest bidder.

[Robb]

3. Good, realistic thinking.

As ever with such statements, though, I'd get ready to duck if I were you.

[MFM008]

4. Im already sick of him

sick sick sick and its just starting.

[cali]

5. lol seriously? you think we'll go to war with Russia over this? Let me ease your troubled soul:

Not a chance.

[railsback]

6. Perhaps that's why he's stuck in Russia.

I agree. He should face the United States like a man. Otherwise, his statement that he would 'die for this country' is just pure, utter bullshit.

[nadinbrzezinski]

7. They will commit an act of war?

That would truly be desperation.

(Yes forcing a plane down is an act of war)

Given we already have gone there, don't put it above them though. (Chinese hospitals and life support systems...I know the Geneva convention is a damn piece of paper)

The best they could do is stop talking about it. Right now they look like a bunch of seven year olds not knowing what to do with the word no.

[pnwmom]

15. If you've studied history you know that wars have started on much less. n/t

[nadinbrzezinski]

16. Once again

We will commit an act of war. How desperate are they?

And yes, I got a shiny masters in History. Any other shitty question?

[quinnox]

17. sounds like you would be in favor of one

You really think getting Snowden would be worth World War III?

[pnwmom]

37. Yeah, right. But I don't think Snowden would mind.

Not as long as he got to be the center of attention.

[quinnox]

40. right, he is the world's greatest super villian

It is all an evil plan to lure the world into World War. He probably has an evil laugh too.

[pnwmom]

45. No, he appears to be an garden variety narcissist, probably a lot like Assange. nt

[quinnox]

8. Obama would confirm he is worse than Bush by starting a war over Snowden

I don't believe Obama is that stupid. Indeed, I have always said Obama is a brilliant individual. I think what you are saying would be what a Bush would do, but not an Obama. Nice fear mongering though.

[grasswire]

10. Keep calm and carry on.

Time to go smell some flowers, watch some children playing, take a long walk and breatje deeply.

Snowden is inconsequential. He didn't give anyone anything they didn't already know.

[Arcanetrance]

11. Can't say I love him but I like the fact that its gotten a debate on the police state

and constant surveillance that the country seems to have willingly swallowed post 9/11. I just wish thee conversation would move past talking about one person and whether they are good or bad and focus on the system as a whole.

[randome]

14. The only thing supporting a 'police state' is what Snowden claims.

That's not enough to get my blood pressure up, especially since his other claims have not held up well under scrutiny.

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]You should never stop having childhood dreams.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[Arcanetrance]

20. I'm gonna be completely honest my work hours and such has kept me from staying

completely updated past little tid bits I get time to read or catch on tv. I knew the meta data thing which really is the part i'm least concerned about. I think americans would be shocked how much meta data is collected every single day by different companies and places none of us think of. I'm talking about police that have become more like armies and the hostile way protesters are treated the crazy sentences handed out to help support a for profit prison industry.

[randome]

28. It's the same privatization bullshit that allowed Snowden to steal documents.

Yeah, we have our work cut out for us in many areas.

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]You should never stop having childhood dreams.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[think]

13. Can I like Binney, Drake, Weibe, Plame, Wilson, Tice, Wyden, Urdell,

and the many others that have been or are in positions of power who trying to expose the wrong doings and corruption in government?

Or do I even need to like these former NSA,CIA and current Senators to respect that they may have backgrounds that would give me pause to consider their claims and allegations?

Or does that put me in the "I want a bloody war with Russia" column too?

Regardless:

Thank you William Binney:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Binney_%28U.S._intelligence_official%29


Thank you Thomas Drake:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Andrews_Drake


Thank you Kirk Wiebe:
http://www.whistleblower.org/program-areas/homeland-security-a-human-rights/surveillance/nsa-whistleblowers-bill-binney-a-j-kirk-wiebe


Thank you Valerie Plame and Joe Wilson:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jun/23/nsa-intelligence-industrial-complex-abuse


Thank you Russ Tice:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/20/russ-tice-nsa-obama_n_3473538.html


Thank you Senator Wyden:
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/06/justice-department-electronic-frontier-foundation-fisa-court-opinion


Thank you Senator Udall:
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/06/20/secret-fisa-court-allows-nsa-to-collect-and-use-data-without-a-warrant/


And thank you to everyone who is tired of the Bush era Patriot Act Secret Law enough to speak out!

[randome]

18. Binney, Drake and Wiebe were all Bush Era whistleblowers.

They blew the whistle on a program called Trailblazer that was subsequently canceled. Drake was later convicted of stealing documents.

Yes, they were treated badly but also from your link:

In January 2010, the Department of Justice issued Binney and Wiebe identical letters of immunity. These important truth-tellers continue to receive advocacy and support from GAP. GAP has provided legal advice on whistleblowing matters and media and public advocacy assistance.

After going public, they have acted as sources for several significant news reports, including groundbreaking stories and important segments by Wired Magazine, The New Yorker, 60 Minutes, Democracy NOW!, Glenn Beck TV, and Viewpoint with Eliot Spitzer. Binney and Wiebe's disclosures continue to have a tremendous impact on the ongoing debate about the scope of the ever-expanding American national security state.

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]You should never stop having childhood dreams.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[think]

21. Yep old whistleblowers that were drug through hell for staying within the system

and then completely written off and ignored.

Kind of like right now.....

[randome]

22. They helped get Trailblazer canceled.

But yes, they were treated badly.

But if Snowden wants to be seen as a whistleblower, he needs to give us more evidence than a copy of a legal warrant and the surprising 'revelation' that we spy on China.

Oh, and he needs to stop giving away secrets to other countries.

I don't see that Snowden stacks up well against the others at all.

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]You should never stop having childhood dreams.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[deurbano]

35. "Five Myths about the National Security State"

By James Bamford, Published: June 21

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/five-myths-about-the-national-security-agency/2013/06/21/438e0c4a-d37f-11e2-b05f-3ea3f0e7bb5a_print.html

<<5. ….

And even when whistleblowers bring their concerns to the news media, the NSA usually denies that the activity is taking place. The agency denied Binney’s charges that it was obtaining all consumer metadata from Verizon and had access to virtually all Internet traffic. It was only when Snowden leaked the documents revealing the phone-log program and showing how PRISM works that the agency was forced to come clean.>>

[cascadiance]

32. Whistleblowers like Manning, John Kiriakou are paying the price for being Obama era whistleblowers..

And others like Aaron Schwartz arguably have paid a big price too for trying too hard to bring information to the masses as well.

Anonymous hacker/bogger Derek Lostutter is facing far more prison time himself than the rapists are themselves for exposing the Steubenville miss-handling of rape crimes.

It seems like "Kill the Messenger" is still the agenda of this administration as much as it has been the last one.

[okaawhatever]

57. Kiriakou wasn't prosecuted for being a whistleblower. Indeed, he wasn't charged at all when he

spoke publicly about water boarding, confirming it's use and technique. He wasn't prosecuted for writing his book about his time at the CIA. He wasn't prosecuted initially for lying to CIA about the book, nor for bragging to editors about his lying and attempting to get over on the agency. He was prosecuted for revealing the identity of a CIA agent (though he had identified many). The identity of an agent to a reporter who within hours had relayed the information to defense attorneys at Gitmo. The individuals name didn't have anything to do with whistle blowing. The water boarding was already made public. According to his emails, he was attempting to increase his income from speaking engagements and interest in his book. Manning is not a whistle blower because he didn't just reveal illegal activities. He dumped everything he could get his hands on. He had no interest in showing the public just the illegal activities, or else he would have stopped there.

[Luminous Animal]

23. Good post.

[Agony]

56. gān bēi!

Cheers!
Agony

[JaneyVee]

19. I'm pretty sure Obama prefers capturing him alive and giving him due process.

[KharmaTrain]

24. Snowden May Be Too Smart By Half...

...Putin has been wanting the extradition of a Russian national and Snowden's delay from Moscow make one wonder if he's being used in another East/West chess game. Instead of being the "whistleblower", in Russia, he's a bargaining chip.

[DURHAM D]

25. That is my takeaway.

Snowden is now just a political football.

[markiv]

26. i'd go for his face on Verizon phone screensavers

as just a little reminder of who you're talking to

[markiv]

27. he might cause the milky way galaxy to be sucked into a black hole too

but it's equally unlikely

[maxrandb]

29. John Kerry, just now on Snowden

"People may lose their lives because of what this man did...this has nothing to do with hacking, and everything to do with national security".

So I guess that President Obama, Secretary Kerry, Congressman Pelosi and Senator Schumer (to name just a few), are all part of some vast conspiracy to destroy our Democracy, but Snowden and Assange are "heroes".

You know, Democrats have always had a long history of placing country above self.

I for one am done with the Snowden apologists on DU. Your continued support for this guy shows a complete lack of care for, and commitment to your country, or it's defense.

[markiv]

41. my guess is, you'd have 'been done' will LBJ's vietnam war protesters too, if this were

1967

'who wants to be the last man, to die in Vietnam?'

gee, wonder who said that?

[tblue]

55. John Kerry was something special.

Now he's just a part of the machine. I am not attached to Snowden or anybody else in this unfolding drama. I just want our civil liberties protected. If he's caught, I hope he is treated fairly and humanely. I just don't have the inclination to wish anything different.

[maxrandb]

59. So now Snowden

is as "courageous" and "honorable" and "committed" as those who protested against the Vietnam War and threw their medals onto the lawn of the White House, or faced the National Guard in Akron, OH??

I guess I would feel differently about them if they had held their protest in Communist China or Russia, or stold state secrets and passed them to foreign countries.

Your post just reaffirms my choice to be "done" with those supporting Snowden.

Thanks!

Edited to add..."Holy fucking crap, where do I donate funds for his monument on the mall?"

[markiv]

62. i thought you were already done

it ddint take a security clearence to know that people were dying for a cause that wasnt worth it in vietnam

to say that one can only be civilly diobediant in a manner equivelent to those who are now in power, is to bassicly forbid all civil disobediance

[markiv]

30. 'No, my prediction is that plane will be met by some FA-18s '

"No, my prediction is that plane will be met by some FA-18s somewhere over international waters, and they will be forced to land somewhere where Mr. Snowden can be removed from the plane for further travel back to the United States."

an outright act of war and piracy

note that even the blockade of Cuba in 1962, with a nuclear buildup 90 miles away only went up to the line of turning them back, no confiscation. and even THAT was debated whether it was an act of war or not

this OP is ridiculous

[treestar]

31. amen to your last sentence

We are scolded that we cannot trust anyone we elected, but we are to trust these cowboys.

[maxrandb]

38. I think some on DU

have forgotten that "1984, Fahrenheit 451, The Matrix and A Clockwork Orange" are all works of FICTION

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

33. Solution: Shut down the spying, bring the CIA agents home, and declare Snowden retired as bogeyman.

[maxrandb]

36. What fantasy world are you living in?

You do understand that there are quite a few people around the world who would like to destroy the United States, don't you?

Thank God for the people brave enough to do the work of defending our country. I guess in your world, we ought to just eliminate the military too.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

43. EEK! Bogeymen!!!

You should read up on the history of the CIA and its work and "defending" the country and the results of that work.

"The welfare of the people in particular has always been the alibi of tyrants, and it provides the further advantage of giving the servants of tyranny a good conscience.” - Albert Camus (1913-1960)

[maxrandb]

60. You want to end our National Security and Intelligence Programs

and I'm the one throwing up a Boogeyman????

Hell, even neutral Sweden has security personnel and spies working to protect them from people who wish them harm.

Your "Up With People" approach to National Security sounds real nice, but it's not very practical.

[GeorgeGist]

46. Do you ever wonder why?

[truebluegreen]

54. Aha!--the heart of the matter.

You mean if we weren't messing with their countries and mucking up their lives, like we had a right to, they wouldn't hate us so much?

And here I thought it was our (non-existant) freedoms. Silly me.

[Progressive dog]

39. He'll be brought back by diplomacy or not at all

Assange is safe in the Ecuador embassy in London. Snowden is not that important to the US government.

[cthulu2016]

42. It appears that the race to the bottom is hotly contested.

Some think this is an after-school special, whereas you think it is a comic book.

[quinnox]

44. lol, I think comparing the OP to a comic book plot is giving it too much credit

Come on, comic books have gotten pretty sophisticated these days. F-18s intercepting Russian flight? It sounds like a bad straight to video movie.

[GeorgeGist]

47. How's that war scenario work?

We shoot first? Gotcha.

:woo:

[datasuspect]

48. will bruce willis be the pilot?

i'm thinking the rock or brad pitt can be the guy that catches him.

[Hissyspit]

49. LOL

[LanternWaste]

51. I'd guess the amount of people who want him on Mount Rushmore is equivalent to

I'd guess the amount of people who want him on Mount Rushmore is equivalent to the amount of people who want him to disappear into Guantanamo Bay...

If we're compelled to be melodramatic in ascribing how others feel about him (as is happening quite often this week), we can't really complain too much when people deny us credibility in what we may have to say.

[Pholus]

52. Oh, Sn-ap!

A very nice comeback to a breathless, hyperbolic OP. Kudos!

[KG]

53. hilarious.

[muriel_volestrangler]

58. Where the fuck are your fantasies coming from?

"if you think that Edward Snowden really has the location and identities of all of our CIA agents throughout the world"

Look, if there really is a single person who believes that, then shouldn't you be talking to them, not to DU?

Can we ignore the rest of your post as a badly written proposal for a summer film that will never get made, rather than actual commentary on current affairs?

[maxrandb]

61. Yawn

[muriel_volestrangler]

64. OK, you're useless; can anyone else explain where this "Snowden knows where all CIA agents are"

has come from?

[DisgustipatedinCA]

63. Actually, I wanted to put Snowden's face on the nearby Crazy Horse monument.

Would that be ok? Snowden could be depicted on the side of Crazy Horse's face--kind of like a Picasso.

Anyway, I'm on your side. I totally think we should start a simultaneous war with both Russia and China. For Russia, I propose we call it Operation Barbarosa II--I don't see what could go wrong there. I'm not sure what to call the war with China, but as long as we're shooting lots of missiles every day, the name will come to us in due course.

Russia and China will be sorry once they understand that we're willing to kill millions to keep our secrets more secret. And without your OP, I never would have thought much about this brilliant approach to foreign policy.

[Egalitarian Thug]

65. Another FAIL from the let's-write-about-anything-except-the-issue clique. n/t

[Bonobo]

67. Have you been eating paint chips? nt

[Savannahmann]

68. They aren't in charge of our foreign policy.

But the ones who are in charge, are doing a poor job. Over the last several days, we are left looking like a petulant child demanding someone return our toy. We tell the Chinese, give us Snowden. They say no, we stomp our foot and say, I want him.

As I mentioned in another thread. My father told me to remember why I am breaking the rules. I need a moral, or ethical reason to do it. If I broke a car window for no good reason, I was in trouble. If I broke that same window to get to an animal, or child, trapped in the car. I was almost certainly not in trouble. On one hand, I was a thug destroying things for my amusement. In that second instance, I was doing something wrong, for a higher purpose.

So the Government has been doing things wrong. They have been spying, and intercepting diplomatic messages, and all sorts of dirty little tricks and dirty secrets all while professing to be the staunchest defenders of human rights in the world.

What is their excuse? Oh we have to in order to prevent another terrorist attack. You have to have a higher purpose to break the rules, and we didn't. We had the ability, and the desire, and we did it. Just because we can do a thing, doesn't mean we should do it.

[redgreenandblue]

69. bwahahahahahahaaa...