Do you believe the Obama administration uses torture?

[ZombieHorde]

28 votes, 0 passes | Time left: Unlimited
	Yes.
	21 (75%)
	No.
	6 (21%)
	I don't know what to believe.
	0 (0%)
	I hate the beeping noise large vehicles make when they back up.
	1 (4%)
	0 DU members did not wish to select any of the options provided.
Show usernames Disclaimer: This is an Internet poll

[mike_c]

1. force feeding prisoners is torture-- end of discussion....

:large

[Daemonaquila]

2. Tah dah!

If anyone wants to debate that... wow.

[NaturalHigh]

6. Absolutely.

[FreeState]

18. +1

there is no reason the believe that anyone in either party doesn't of things like this, unfortunately its part of our history and culture. It won't stop until we all demand better.

[Scuba]

22. Plus another.

[WatermelonRat]

24. So is it my understanding that you are in favor of allowing them to die?

Because that's what you get otherwise.

[mike_c]

25. they are of sound mind and choose to stop eating....

There are lots of issues involved, including the limited right of prisoners to self expression, but at it's simplest, it comes down to the question of whether adults of sound mind can choose to die, or whether we have the right to force them to live, at great pain and humiliation, likely just so that we can hurt and humiliate them again tomorrow.

I am in favor of respecting their right to terminate their own lives, yes. My preference would be to release them and make restitution.

on edit-- it's also worth noting that MY opinion isn't the one that counts here. International law and the U.N. both define forced feeding as torture, as gross violations of human rights. You're essentially making the argument that we should torture people in order to prevent them from dying, even though that's what they've chosen to do.

[Gravitycollapse]

61. You really know nothing about the history of force feeding, do you.

Or the ethical and legal implications.

[kas125]

64. Have you ever had an NG tube inserted into your body? Until you have, you have nothing to say about

it. I have had one and I say that if it's not what you want, and even if it is, it's fucking torture.

[sabrina 1]

77. No, it is our understanding that they do not belong there and should be released.

They were kidnapped, probably bought by Bush's goons, kept for years without charges or trials, tortured and denied any human rights.

Clearly anyone who finds themselves in such a hell on earth would prefer to die when it becomes clear there is no justice for them, being that they are in a gulag run by Big Corps who care little for human beings.

And then what should happen, if we lived in a democracy, the perpetrators responsible for these horrendous crimes would replace them in those cells, AFTER they have received fair trials, and the conditions in those cells improved so they are in line with Human Rights standards.

[ZombieHorde]

28. I agree. nt

[Orsino]

79. And solitary.

And, hell, almost any civilian incarceration may qualify.

[vi5]

3. Not a single doubt in my mind (N/T)

[liberal_at_heart]

4. Well we know they force feed Gitmo detainees who are on hunger strike. Why are they doing that?

Maybe to protect themselves from a public relations nightmare?

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

5. No. No. No. Force feeding is the stylish new of enjoying gourmet slime.

[Cali_Democrat]

7. Barack Obama has issued an executive order banning torture.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/the_press_office/EnsuringLawfulInterrogations

Of course many people here will simply make shit up.

Oh well....not that I give a shit anymore.

[morningfog]

9. The force feeding is public knowledge. Nothing made

up there.

[treestar]

11. That's not torture

We don't want these people to die. Geez.

[mike_c]

14. the United Nations and international law disagree....

http://www.france24.com/en/20130501-force-feeding-torture-un-law-guantanamo-hunger-strike

[liberal_at_heart]

15. who needs international law? We're the US. We're above international law.

[kas125]

23. Have you ever had an NG tube shoved into your nose down to your stomach? I have and

for me it was a necessary part of preparing my stomach for surgery. When the nurse tried to insert it the first time, just from pure reflex, I shoved the poor woman across the room and screamed, "It doesn't FIT!" I was humiliated that I'd done such a thing and forced myself to let her do it the second time. It hurts, a lot. Thank god that when it needed to be replaced, it was done during surgery when I was out.

Having one of those damned things shoved into you repeatedly is torture.

[Gravitycollapse]

62. That is by international legal definition exactly torture.

Nice try though.

[mike_c]

10. check out that made up restraint chair in reply #1....

Seriously, that's all just made up shit. Really.

How do you sleep at night, defending torture?

[MannyGoldstein]

27. And what impartial body decides whether it's torture or not?

Based on section 5 of that executive order, there is no impartial body that decides. Basically, the White House decides on the definition of torture.

[L0oniX]

42. ...and the military gladly complied ...with Bradly Manning.

[morningfog]

8. They've admitted to it, the force feedings.

[NCTraveler]

12. Yes.

I consider indefinite detention to be torture.

[geek tragedy]

13. Close call on the forced feeding, and I wouldnt disagree

too strenuously with those who would argue that it is torture.

[SamKnause]

16. Believe ?

I know for a fact they do !

We use forced feedings at Guantanamo.
We use solitary confinement in juvenile facilities.
We use solitary confinement, brutality, and rape in our federal prison system and private prison system.
Bradley Manning was tortured.
We have black sites around the globe.
We send people to countries that are known for torture.
We train torturers and assassins at the School of Americas in Fort Benning, Georgia.
We do not prosecute people, who write books and brag on TV, that they support 'enhanced interrogation' and would gladly do it again.
Drones kill American citizens without due process; no charges, no facts, no discussion, and no trial

[ZombieHorde]

33. Sure, but not everyone thinks that is torture.

I do, but some here apparently don't. I wonder if some just refuse to believe that the US is a torture state, or that President Obama is a torture president.

[SamKnause]

34. Torture

Perhaps they do not know the history of this country, especially as it pertains to Latin America.

Perhaps they believe the people being tortured deserve it.

Perhaps they can not see what is happening in this country and around the world at the 'request' of the U.S.

Perhaps they work in the torture industry.

Perhaps they strive to one day work in the torture business.

Perhaps they actually enjoy the thought of torture.

Perhaps they can not bring themselves to admit that the U.S. is not the shining beacon on the hill.

Perhaps they were brainwashed by the military.

Perhaps they are brainwashed by religious beliefs.

Perhaps they think criticizing your government, or president in unpatriotic.

I do not have the answers.

I do know that this country is sick, very sick.

[Scurrilous]

17. This certainly elicits howls of pain from some:

Also:




Lastly:




Ouch!!1!

[nadinbrzezinski]

20. Bo is cute.

[nadinbrzezinski]

19. Is this a joke question? Forced feeding of prisoners is torture.

[Ichingcarpenter]

21. I have another one

Everytime Prez Obama uses

BIPARTISANSHIP Or appoints another FUCKING REPUBLICAN

It tortures my mind......




I'll talk.. I' talk .... I 'll admit to anything just stop the torture.......

But force feeding is recognized as a form of torture.

[former9thward]

26. There is physical torture and mental torture.

I believe the conditions Manning has been held in amount to mental torture. Mental torture leaves no marks -- only in the mind of the person tortured. I'm sure if Snowden ends up in the U.S. he will be tortured.

[WillyT]

29. K & R !!!

[The Straight Story]

30. He hasn't stopped Honey Boo Boo from airing, so yeah (nt)

[MrSlayer]

31. I don't see any reason to think otherwise.

Since they're full of shit on everything else, why would this be an exception?

[Autumn]

32. Absolutely, they also spy on American citizens.

[Savannahmann]

35. What is your definition of torture?

Must it be the worst examples from history? The NKVD would gouge out eyeballs, tear out tongues, shatter fingers and other bones. The KGB also used similar methods during questioning. Must one have bamboo shoots under fingernails to be tortured? Must electric shock be used before it is torture?

Our definitions have evolved over the years. When the Constitutional Amendment against cruel and unusual punishment was passed, flogging (whipping) was a common punishment handed down by the courts. The stocks hadn't been out of use that long, but by the same token, medicine was barbaric as well. The "Doctor" was just as likely to drill a hole in your head to let the evil spirits out as he was to accidentally cure you.

Today, all of those common punishments are considered cruel and unusual. What will the future say about our practices in another century? I imagine some school children pale with shock as they hear about the brutality of the prisons. I imagine some child sobbing as descriptions of forced feedings are shown to the class. I can imagine it because that was the way it was in our school, when they described and showed us pictures of common practices in history. I can remember how disgusted I was when I was told about the police beating confessions out of people. About how the population was enraged when the practice was ended, because without this tool, the police could never solve the crimes they were investigating.

From common practice, to cruel and unusual punishment. From normal and acceptable to torture in a generation or two. So what will the future say about our normal practices in another generation, or two? What will our descendants be saying about us in a century?

[ZombieHorde]

37. Fantasic reply.

Torture can be difficult to define, because pro-torture folks will obviously examine the definition for loop holes. However, this definition is what I was thinking of:

"Any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity."

This definition excludes "pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions", which seems designed to permit the death penalty.

I lifted this definition from the following article: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1505073/How-the-law-and-UN-define-torture.html

[sibelian]

69. The way we're going...

... in a generation or two our descendants will view the late 20th and early 21st century as the time everyone went soft.

[ProSense]

36. No, but

apparently there are several people who believe they're torture enablers.

I voted against torture.

ENDING TORTURE = Three Torches

• Ordered an end to the use of torture and cruel, inhuman, and degrading treatment, withdrew
  flawed legal analysis used to justify torture and applied the Army Field Manual on interrogations
  government wide.
  
• Abolished the CIA secret prisons.
  
• Says that “waterboarding is torture” and “contrary to America’s traditions… contrary to our ideals.”
  
• No reports of extraordinary rendition to torture or other cruelty under his administration.
  
• Failed to hold those responsible for past torture and other cruelty accountable; has blocked
  alleged victims of torture from having their day in court.

http://www.aclulibertywatch.org/ALWCandidateReportCard.pdf

[ZombieHorde]

39. Do you consider forced feedings to be torture? nt

[ProSense]

44. I do not

"Do you consider forced feedings to be torture?"

...approve of forced feeding. Is it torture? There are ethical and medical concerns and other issues to be considered.

Dianne Feinstein:

"Hunger strikes are a long known form of non-violent protest aimed at bringing attention to a cause, rather than an attempt at suicide," she wrote in a letter. "I believe that the current approach raises very important ethical questions and complicates the difficult situation regarding the continued indefinite detention at Guantanamo. I urge you to re-evaluate the force-feeding policies at Guantanamo Bay and put in place the most humane policies possible."

http://livewire.talkingpointsmemo.com/entry/feinstein-stop-force-feeding-guantanamo-bay-detainees

Now, let's say the administration stops this practice. What happens happens if a prisoner dies?

War crimes tribunal orders force-feeding of Serbian warlord

The UN war crimes tribunal in The Hague last night ordered the force-feeding of a Serbian warlord and senior politician who has been on hunger strike in custody for almost a month.

The decision, the first such order since the court was set up more than a decade ago to deal with war crimes in the former Yugoslavia, came after a medical examination of Vojislav Seselj concluded that he might be a fortnight away from dying.

<...>

The tribunal last night told Dutch authorities to force-feed Mr Seselj if there was a risk of him dying. "There is a prevailing interest in continuing with the trial of the accused in order to serve the ends of justice," it said in a statement. "The trial ... should not be undermined by the accused's manipulative behaviour."

<...>

While stating that any force-feeding deemed necessary for lifesaving purposes should not contradict "compelling internationally accepted standards of medical ethics or binding rules of international law", the judges at the tribunal also noted that the body of law laid down by the European court of human rights did not view force-feeding as "torture, inhuman or degrading treatment if there is a medical necessity to do so ... and if the manner in which the detainee is force-fed is not inhuman or degrading".

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/dec/07/balkans.warcrimes

The best way out of this situation is to end the practice, release the prisoners and close Gitmo. Can that happen before a tragedy?

[ZombieHorde]

46. "The best way out of this situation is to end the practice, release the prisoners and close Gitmo."

I definitely agree with that, but forced feeding is torture, in my opinion. I also consider some of the treatment Manning has received to be torture.

[kas125]

53. Then it's obvious that you've never had a nasal/gastric tube inserted into you because if you had

you would know that it IS torture. I have had it done to me, and when it was, it was necessary and still, I shoved the poor nurse across the room purely from reflexes because it HURT. I knew it had to be done, I knew it was a necessary part of preparing me for lifesaving surgery, but it HURTS and it's horrible. To do that to someone more than once is torture. I know.

[Bluenorthwest]

38. The force feeding at Gitmo is not about harvesting pate is it? No, it is torture.

It does not even have to be torture to damn Barack Obama as a hypocrite beyond measure. He is a man, like Bush before him, who parades about claiming to be a Super Christian able to judge gay people and everything, and yet Christ taught that any mistreatment of any prisoner is done directly to him, the Christ. So Obama pauses from his critiques of gay people to shove a feeding tube down the throat of Jesus of Nazareth. Then Rick Warren says a prayer, the Pope says 'gays are an attack on God' and Barack shoves another tube down the next throat of the Christ. 'That which you do to these the least among you, you do to me'.
I takes a certain sort of hubris to do such things without turning gray headed and bitter.

[stevenleser]

40. I think calling force feeding torture is a slap in the face to people who have been tortured

I realize that the UN High commissioner for human rights said that he thought that it was torture. I read his ruling.

I think he jumped the shark when he made that ruling.

[Savannahmann]

41. So in your opinion, it is merely a required medical procedure?

When someone does something to you that you do not wish done, is that right, or wrong? Not as a child, no child wants a surgery that may save his life, that decision is best left to others able to better judge the situation. However, as an adult, you as an adult, would you find it morally right or wrong to be forced to undergo a procedure without any choice in the matter?

That is why it is considered torture. Sure, it isn't bamboo shoots under the fingernails, but in a century, the future will certainly consider it torture. You give up certain rights when you are incarcerated, granted. One of those rights you surrender is not the ability o determine what medical procedures you endure. You still have that right, even if you are held without charges, without trial, and without hope.

[stevenleser]

47. I think if you are in custody, a lot of things happen that are not your choice

I dont know where I fall as to whether someone should be able to be force fed or not. But Its not torture.

[Romulus Quirinus]

43. It's a good thing you're an expert and everything.

I mean, waterboarding, pshhh, right?

[stevenleser]

45. Nope, I'm on record as saying waterboarding is torture. nt

[Romulus Quirinus]

48. But you're just putting washcloths on their face

the poor babies!

It's not like you're completely immobilizing them twice a day for three hours at a time, shoving a tube up their nose and down their throat, then pumping whatever-the-hell-it-is into them until they are shitting themselves.

[kas125]

54. Waterboarding is torture but an unwanted NG tube isn't?!!?

It's pretty obvious that you have never had an NG tube inserted into your nose and shoved all the way down to your stomach. I have - it's fucking torture even if it's necessary. And to do it repeatedly is unconscionable.

[magellan]

49. Have you ever been force fed?

Gitmo force feeding is torture

"As you read this, it's likely that some of the men are being dragged from their cells, strapped to restraint chairs, and a rubber tube inserted up their nose and into their stomachs to pump in liquid dietary supplement. One of the men described the traumatic experience to his attorney as having a razor blade go down through your nose and into your throat."

It's all dismissible until you're the one it's being done to.

[kas125]

55. Only it's not a rubber tube. It's hard plastic and it fucking hurts when it goes in. I had to have

one inserted into me before stomach surgery, it's horrible and it hurts more than having a baby with no pain meds, which I did three times. I'd rather give birth than have that damned fucking tube shoved into my nose again. I simply cannot imagine living with the knowledge that it's going to happen to you on a daily basis, it's really, really painful.

[magellan]

60. I hear you

That was just the description from the article. I'm sorry for what you went through. And you knew (or could assume) the nurse had no ill will toward you. I can't think how terrifying it must be to endure at the hands of a captor.

[kas125]

63. I know, that's what's so horrible about it. I KNEW I had to have surgery, it was ME who diagnosed

what was wrong with me and told my doctor that I thought I had pyloric stenosis and he laughed, but after I told him why I thought I had it, he stopped laughing and ordered the tests and sure enough, that's what it was. I needed emergency surgery to remove half my stomach and part of my intestines because scar tissue from ulcers had completely closed the bottom of my stomach and nothing was going through and I was literally starving to death even though I was eating. And even knowing that I HAD to have it done, it hurt and I fought having it just from pure reflex, because my brain KNEW it had to be done, but my body wanted none of that painful thing.

[kas125]

66. What I'm finding the most ingriguing is that none of the torture defenders

have anything to say after I tell them I've had an NG tube and that it IS torture. So far, not a single response from any of them.

[magellan]

71. You're lucky. A lot of them never stop arguing.

I went through that with an endless parade of rwers over waterboarding. They've never experienced it so you can't convince them it's torture. Not that I've experienced either brand of horror, but I'll take the Human Rights Commissioner's opinion over that of inexperienced opiners.

Your reflex response to having a feeding tube inserted sounds a lot like how people start struggling once the water hits their face. I'm glad you came through that and the drastic surgery all right.

[Marrah_G]

50. Absolutely

Once that genie came out of the bottle there was no putting it back in.

[Purveyor]

51. For all of you that voted 'yes'...do know you are now on 'the list'! eom

[kas125]

57. I'm proud to be on the list, as I always have been since I was targeted and "not allowed to attend"

a speech by the fucking head of the CIA, Michael Hayden, because he read right here on DU earlier that day that I planned to ask him about the 4th amendment and why they think they don't need "probable cause" anymore before spying on us.

[Life Long Dem]

52. Bezio v. Dorsey

Force-feeding order did not violate inmate's rights: Court of Appeals

http://www.doccs.ny.gov/NewsRoom/external_news/2013-05-02_Hunger_Strike_Force_Feeding_Win_Reuters.pdf

[jazzimov]

56. Well, I guess that depends on the definition of "torture"

Naked solitary confinement to protect against suicide, I don't consider torture.

Playing Barney at full blast night and day, I DO consider torture.

I think the Obama administration has done the former, but not the latter.

[kas125]

67. Shoving an NG tube into someone daily is torture. I had one inserted into me once and it was

horrible. I knew it was necessary to save my life and still, I shoved the nurse across the room the first time she tried to put it in, just from reflexes. I knew it was necessary to save my life, but it HURTS. A lot. More than having a baby with no pain meds at all. It IS torture, there's no doubt in my mind at all, force feeding is torture.

[Honeycombe8]

58. It can't be answered unless you define "torture." nt

[Fire Walk With Me]

59. Obama has ordered or allowed domestic terrorism against the Occupy Wall Street movement

while earlier having stated that the Egyptian authorities should not attack peaceful protesters, that such is "unacceptable". He also has allowed PFC Manning to be kept in solitary confinement for three years before his trial began despite calls of torture by rights foundations. He twice signed the NDAA section 1021 allowing for the indefinite detention of US citizens with neither trial nor representation, and fought for it to be reinstated after Christ Hedges and other got it struck down as unConstitutional. He has condoned the extra-judicial execution of US citizens via robot death plane.

Why should I have any hesistation to believe he allows or engages in torture?



Section 802 of the USA PATRIOT Act (Pub. L. No. 107-52) expanded the definition of terrorism to cover ""domestic,"" as opposed to international, terrorism. A person engages in domestic terrorism if they do an act ""dangerous to human life"" that is a violation of the criminal laws of a state or the United States, if the act appears to be intended to: (i) intimidate or coerce a civilian population; (ii) influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or (iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination or kidnapping. Additionally, the acts have to occur primarily within the territorial jurisdiction of the United States and if they do not, may be regarded as international terrorism.

http://www.aclu.org/national-security/how-usa-patriot-act-redefines-domestic-terrorism



The FBI Divides Terrorist-Related Activities into Two Categories:

A terrorist incident is a violent act or an act dangerous to human life, in violation of the criminal laws of the United States, or of any state, to intimidate or coerce a government, the civilian population, or any segment thereof, in furtherance of political or social objectives.

[JackRiddler]

65. It doesn't matter what we believe...

At any rate, the question is insufficiently detailed.

Do you believe keeping prisoners acknowledged as innocent many years ago and then force-feeding them when they go on hunger strike is torture?

Do you believe keeping a man in solitary for many months and forcing him to be naked without sheets under bright lights whenever he sleeps (with hourly interruptions) is torture?

[ZombieHorde]

70. The poll is more about people's perception of the current administration.

I hope people use their normal definition of torture. I assume different people are using different definitions for the word.

Do you believe keeping prisoners acknowledged as innocent many years ago and then force-feeding them when they go on hunger strike is torture?

In my opinion, yes.

Do you believe keeping a man in solitary for many months and forcing him to be naked without sheets under bright lights whenever he sleeps (with hourly interruptions) is torture?

Also yes.

[JackRiddler]

72. Okay, but what if that's the least important aspect.

I'd rather focus people on what actually happens, putting it this way encourages dichotomous thinking around the admin being good or bad, rather than around the practices themselves being defensible or not.

[ZombieHorde]

73. That is a good point, however

if people don't view the behavior as torture, then the practice won't change. Ending torture will be an act of persuasion, and if people are not convinced that torture is happening, then they won't be persuaded to try to end it.

[G_j]

68. how much suffering constitutes torture?

US accused of inhumane treatment over Wikileaks soldier case

Amnesty International has urged the US authorities to alleviate the harsh pre-trial detention conditions of Bradley Manning,

http://www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-updates/us-accused-inhumane-treatment-over-wikileaks-soldier-case-2011-01-24

"We are concerned that the conditions inflicted on Bradley Manning are unnecessarily severe and amount to inhumane treatment by the US authorities," said Susan Lee, Amnesty International’s Programme Director for the Americas.

"The repressive conditions imposed on Manning breach the US's obligations to treat detainees with humanity and dignity," said Susan Lee.

"We are also concerned that isolation and prolonged cellular confinement, which evidence shows can cause psychological impairment, may undermine Bradley Manning's ability to defend himself," said Susan Lee.

[ZombieHorde]

75. I don't know an objective way to answer that question.

I was hoping people would use their own definition.

[Puglover]

74. If being held

indefinately without being charged away from your country, your family and loved ones isn't torture I'd love one of the people that voted no on this survey to tell me what qualifies.

[idwiyo]

76. Not a single doubt. Starting with indefinite detention, force-feeding, solitary confinement.

[HooptieWagon]

78. Don't know. But if a person blew the whistle on toture...

...you can bet Obama would charge them with treason, and the Personality Cult would defend Obama.

[Bake]

80. Oh yeah. And they don't spy on Americans either ...

Bake

[Zorra]

82. No ~ unless you mean the constant prattling of his cult of personality

regarding his divine perfection and wisdom.

Other than that, no, I absolutely do not believe that President Obama would ever in a million years sanction the torturing of anyone or anything.