If airplanes are built to last 30 to 20 years, why not cars?

[RB TexLa]

There is no reason a person can't buy a new car pay it off in 6 or 5 years and then use it for 30 or so years after that. There is no reason we can't have cars built to the point that a person only needs to buy one once or twice in their lifetime. And don't say we shouldn't build cars to this goal simply to keep more people employed in that industry.

I'm trying to reach this goal. My car is 18 years old and hopefully it will make it to 30 years or more.


Note: Yes I know that airplane lifespans are measured in cycles and not years.

[msongs]

1. if people cared for their cars like the care airliners get, cars would last longer nt

[opiate69]

57. Exactly. I don't know of too many cars that get periodic D checks...

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aircraft_maintenance_checks

[PoliticAverse]

2. If you maintain your car as frequently as airplanes are maintained 30 years should be no problem...

(including the periodic engine rebuilds).

[meow2u3]

3. Two words: planned obsolescence

The long version: automakers deliberately design cars not to last past the warranty period. This way, the car owner would have to trade their car in for a new model, costing him or her tens of thousands of dollars.

Or, at least, that's the word on the street.

[elleng]

9. Not JUST the word on the street, meow!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planned_obsolescence

[DesertFlower]

13. exactly. not just cars, but everything.

[hedgehog]

24. Planned obsolescence has been given a bad name -

Here's the deal: any machine is designed for a certain lifespan or number of cycles. It's a balancing act - the engineer has to balance between building a costly item that lasts forever and a cheap item that craps out quickly. The manufacturer's warranty tell you how long the product is expected to last.

Now - ideally all the parts would crap out at the same time (http://holyjoe.org/poetry/holmes1.htm)

Typically, with a car, one major element say the transmission or brakes goes bad and it's a judgment call whether the rest of the car is still good enough to make the repair economically viable. Eventually, too many items go bad to justify continuing to repair and/or replace parts.

I am unimpressed with the engineers who design a super sports car where price is not an object. The engineers who build a durable, inexpensive car for the masses are the real geniuses, imo.

These days there is a problem of unplanned obsolesce - items are perfectly functional but made out-of date by technology - for example, cell phones and lap tops.

[Eleanors38]

33. IIRC, "planned obsolescence" does not describe useful life of a car/appliance...

but is a marketing & advertising concept whereby companies convince a customer that the thing they bought 2 - 3 yrs earlier is "obsolete" in terms of features, style and the latest tekkie stuff. Even 50, 60 yrs ago most engineers gave cars nearly 90k miles of useful life, or about 7 yrs. My appliances are about 40 yrs old, and my van 19 (190,000 miles). These durable goods are "obsolete" if you believe it, or some other variable is in play, like mpg or rising insurance & registration costs.

[markiv]

34. cars arent planned anywhere near as obscolecent as they used to be

cars used to be shot and rusted by 8 years, and stuck out like a sore thumb just by style by 10

now, a well chosen car can easily last 15 years, 200,000 miles

[Agony]

4. 2 words - fucking road salt

ok that was 3 words - sorry

I believe the vehicle I have now would last for 30 years if it were not already severely corroded. I have had to abandon vehicles because the frame rusted through.

Your mileage may vary? depending on where you live

Cheers
Agony

[Spider Jerusalem]

46. Depends, American cars up until say the '80's or so weren't built to last

My mother had a '72? '73? Ford Maverick, my grandparents inherited it after she got married and moved off with my father (who was in the Navy); I remember riding in it around age 3 or 4, when it would've been around 8 years old; the floorboard was rusted through in places. No road salt involved, this was in Georgia.

[lumberjack_jeff]

49. See post 48. n/t

[phantom power]

5. likewise major home appliances, or... anything, really

I've often wondered, including here on DU, why essentially no companies fill the "more expensive, but lasts longer" niche. I'd pay more for an appliance or car that didn't start to fall apart after five years.

We've had our toyota for nearly 15 years now, and it's been a good car, but I've never owned a car where shit didn't start to break down after 5 years or so, and at some steady rate thereafter.

[bunnies]

6. My car is 22 years old.

They dont make 'em to last anymore. Thats the problem. They want you to have to get a new one every few years. Buy, buy, buy!

[Throd]

7. My car is 54 years old and going strong.

Any car will last 20 years with proper maintenance and good driving habits.

[darkangel218]

76. What are good driving habbits?

[lumberjack_jeff]

87. No crashing. nt

[darkangel218]

88. Appart from that?

[lumberjack_jeff]

95. Cars are, for the most part, fairly rugged devices.

And the wear bits are designed to be replaceable.

I would make an exception for the mechanical/electrical parts.

Short of physical damage to the body or undercarriage from impact (and appropriate lubrication) the basic machine should function for a very long time.

Seriously, if you want a car to last for 300,000 miles;
1) pick one with a minimum of electro-crap
2) perform routine maintenance
3) don't hit things

[darkangel218]

100. Okay thanks.

I have a fairly new car, 2011. So far no accidents. I purchased the extended wrap waranty up until 60k miles, but I plan to keep it lots longer than that. It's a good car.
I just changed the transmission fluid, hellaof expensive , but the mechanic said I need it after 30k miles.

: )

[FrodosPet]

96. Pretend there is an egg between your foot and the accelerator

Avoid jackrabbit starts. Change the fluids and filters on schedule. Buy a tester and pull your own trouble codes. Buy a repair manual so even when you do take it to the mechanic, you are coming from a position of knowledge about what needs to be done.

[darkangel218]

101. Okay ill try to do that . Where do i get a tester from?

What about turning the car on, and letting the engine to "warm up"? Is that necessary each and every time?

[FrodosPet]

105. Most auto parts stores should have low cost testers

I found one at O'Reillys for about $80 that I plan to get on my mid-month paycheck.

As for "Warming Up" the engine - It should not need warming up in warm weather and no more than a couple minutes in cold weather. Just enough to get the oil flowing. Anything more is a waste of gas.

[darkangel218]

106. Alright, thanks for the info!

I have an O'Reillys near my house. : )

I've been doing the warm up even now in the summer, I didn't know it was just for winter

[darkangel218]

102. I just cjanged the transmission fluid. Any other fluid

I need to change besides regular oil changes? I'm lil over 30k miles now

[FrodosPet]

107. Modern coolant should last for years

If you have the orange anti-freeze, you should be able to get up to 4 years or 100,000 miles out of it.

[darkangel218]

108. Where does that one go, into the AC?

What about some sort of injection cleaning some other mechanic wanted to do? He said my car needed one but I didn't have the money at the time so I passed ( it was at about 25 k then )
He wanted me to pay $159 for that one
Edited to add, I haven't had any problems with the car, was doing an oil change and they said I need fuel injection cleaning. Is that normal?

[FrodosPet]

109. IDK your particular situation, but it seems like it shouldn't

It sounds like your car is fairly young. All injectors will build up varnish over time, but 25.000 miles seems pretty early.

The main thing to delay deposit buildup is to try to buy your gas from a reputable station. There are off the shelf additives that can help as well, but don't overuse them. If and when you do, run your tank pretty low, and then put in the cleaner before filling your tank, and then run that tank fairly low (but NOT empty).

If you are experiencing rough idling or diminishing performance, it might make sense to have them professionally cleaned. But what you are describing - it just seems too early to me. However, others may have a more informed opinion.

For more info, check out http://autos.yahoo.com/maintain/repairqa/

[elleng]

8. Planned obsolescence

Planned obsolescence or built-in obsolescence[1] in industrial design is a policy of planning or designing a product with a limited useful life, so it will become obsolete, that is, unfashionable or no longer functional after a certain period of time.[1] Planned obsolescence has potential benefits for a producer because to obtain continuing use of the product the consumer is under pressure to purchase again, whether from the same manufacturer (a replacement part or a newer model), or from a competitor which might also rely on planned obsolescence.[1]

For an industry, planned obsolescence stimulates demand by encouraging purchasers to buy sooner if they still want a functioning product. Planned obsolescence is common in many different products, including but not limited to wheeled can openers, screws, ear phones, ear buds, shoes, automobile batteries, and bicycle tires. There is however the potential backlash of consumers who learn that the manufacturer invested money to make the product obsolete faster; such consumers might turn to a producer (if any exists) that offers a more durable alternative.

Estimates of planned obsolescence can influence a company's decisions about product engineering. Therefore, the company can use the least expensive components that satisfy product lifetime projections. Such decisions are part of a broader discipline known as value engineering.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planned_obsolescence

[RB TexLa]

10. And if we forced them to extend this out by 30 years think of the money that would be saved

Yes it would cost them money and jobs but more people would be better off with the savings. If people were paying 10 or 8 years for a car they know will last 50 to 40 years they would be happy to pay that.

[elleng]

15. Right. Don't know what my Dad paid for his '93 Toyo Camry Wagon,

but I'm driving it now and hope to never have to replace it.

[CreekDog]

20. what are the safety features on a car that didn't exist 30 years ago?

ABS, standard front, side air bags, stability control, shoulder and lap belts in all seats, etc. etc.

[RB TexLa]

23. .

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3086457

[mike_c]

11. the answer, of course, is that they are, sort of....

Think about it. In thirty years, you'll still be driving a car, most likely-- it just won't be the same car. Here's why.

Let's say you own one car at a time-- what we might call a minimum car owner. Over thirty years, you drive five cars, for an average life span of 6 years per car. Of course, most of those cars have considerably longer life spans, but they'll need more maintenance and expense. Nonetheless, you'll invest, say, $120,000 in six cars over 30 years at an average cost of $20,000 per vehicle. The numbers are just arbitrary, of course-- whether you spend $20K or $5K per car, or squeeze ten years out of them instead of six isn't the point.

Anyway, you'll expect to pay $120K for cars over thirty years.

Depending on how you use your cars and maintain them, a single automobile could probably be engineered to last that 30 years. Certainly, high end commercial vehicles have much longer effective life spans than most consumer vehicles, so it's possible.

But you can already buy a vehicle that will last you longer than the average consumer car-- it just costs more. And arguably, $120K would be a small price to pay for a vehicle that is genuinely engineered to last that long. But few would pay it. The vast majority of buyers would do exactly what they do now-- look for cars with affordable price tags. In the world of $20K automobiles, only a few people look to the $120K models for durability and superior engineering.

The old saying in manufacturing is that you can make something fast, or you can make it to last, or you can make it inexpensive, but you cannot do all three simultaneously. Consumer pressure operates most strongly against products that cost more, so only the well heeled (and commercial enterprises) typically drive the best engineered vehicles. We call them luxury cars, and some of that "luxury" is eye-wash, but it's also because superior engineering and materials are also luxury in our consumer/price driven economy.

[Nimajneb Nilknarf]

12. There was a time when they were built well enough to last that long

The manufacturers weren't making enough money, so they introduced contrived senses of fashion and, as others have noted, planned obsolescence.

[1-Old-Man]

21. No the weren't. Those old things broke down every chance they got.

And those that were not protected rusted away as fast as you could watch it happen. Today's cars are vastly superior when it comes to mechanical reliability and freedom from corrosion. They also run much cleaner, use much less fuel, are almost unmeasurable safer in the event of an accident, and go a lot faster too.

[Nimajneb Nilknarf]

37. All of what you say is true, but maintenance was simple and replacement parts were always available

and inexpensive. As long as people made sure to keep up with oil changes and make sure there was adequate amount of coolant in the radiator, catastrophic failure in Model As were rare events. For their time, they were regarded as very reliable automobiles.

[WestStar]

25. But what did it look like before the complete frame off restoration?

http://www.2040cars.com/Ford/Model-A/1931-ford-model-a-tudor-sedan-deluxe-barn-find-28195/

[Nimajneb Nilknarf]

26. As one who is interested in preservation of things, that looks to me like a "project"

A big one.

[Motown_Johnny]

14. planes are maintained after each flight

If people maintained their cars the way planes are then they would last that long.

My little truck is a '94 and the engine runs better than it has any right to. There have been other issues with it but I try and keep up.

The long term plan is to convert it to electric. If I do end up making that investment then it had better reach 30+ years of age and still run.

[CreekDog]

16. airlines don't keep planes 30 years on average

thanks for playing.

[DAVEDCHICAGO]

45. American Airlines still had MD-80s built in the Early 80s.

They are On their way out for more fuel efficient models, but some still fly.

[CreekDog]

47. did you not see the word "average"?

[JI7]

17. i'm guessing when you take things like maintenance into account the cost will end up

about the same or more.

[doggie breath]

18. It's not necessarily planned obsolesce...

It is technological obsolesce as well.
If you were still driving your 1982 Whatever, you would probably have a normally aspirated 6 or 8 cylinder engine putting out 3 to 10 times the emissions of the current offerings.
You also would not have electronic stability control, air bags, anti-lock brakes or a host of other features not only desired in today's market, but in many cases mandated by current government regulations.

An example would be my restored 1968 Cougar XR7. It is now 45 years old and looks and runs better than the day it left the factory, but it gets 16 - 18 m.p.g. at best, runs like crap on today's 87 octane regular, uses a R-12 based air conditioning system, does not have seat belts.

While I love to drive it and go to shows and cruises almost every weekend in the summer, as an every day driver, forget about it.

[RB TexLa]

22. If we had cars that were designed and sold to last for 50 to 40 years we could move to where

safety standards would be required upgrades. No different than being required to replace a tail light that goes out. If the government wants to require a new type of brakes, you would have to have them installed to pass your next inspection.

[CreekDog]

27. what is the purpose of your idea?

what is it you want to do?

do you want people to save money on cars or do you want them to spend more on them?

you seem to be offering contradictory ideas on that.

first, save money by keeping cars 20-30 years (many, many people do just that already)

second, be required to add ABS, air bags, etc. to an old car, or it will be illegal to drive it (that would cost a lot and end up pushing people to buy newer cars every time a safety regulation is added to new vehicles where retrofit of old ones is not feasible).

so your point seems to be that cars aren't kept long enough and your secondary point is to create a regulation that would end up having people replace cars even sooner than they already do.

as usual, your idea starts out half baked and somehow moments later you've burned it beyond recognition.

but at least you aren't complaining about the children who will be paying your social security and Medicare when you get old.

[RB TexLa]

36. But I read a post saying we paid into SS so we could have it later

Oh, wait, that is only "hard working families" that do that. I know, how dare I even insinuate that someone who is not part of a "hard working family" is paying for anything we get. Your children will have to pay for it all, right? Yes, you pay for your SS because you're a "hard working family," those of us who aren't families are all going to be stealing from your children.

[CreekDog]

40. how much less would your SS benefits be if they were based solely on your own contributions?

and let's start with how much a SS disability benefit would be to you right now if solely based on your own contributions up to this point.

what would they be if they were based on your own contributions?

what does the program currently pay out, using whatever resources the program has?

[RB TexLa]

41. I know, I know, I will be stealing the food off your beloved children's tables

[CreekDog]

43. i assume you paid for your own education?

you paid for the hospitals you used (i mean, you contributed to their building).

you paid for the roads you've used (to be built)

you paid for EVERYTHING you have used in this society from the moment of your birth.

correct?

let's go over the list.

you must have learned to write checks at an amazingly early age.

[RB TexLa]

50. I know, and since I don't have children your children will have to pay for everything for me. The

horrors and unfairness for your precious children.

[CreekDog]

54. i'm happy for society to pay for your old age

everybody and anybody's children.

the point i'm making is that you act like you are paying your own way. you aren't and you never have.

until you start acting like you have a clue that others provided for you, even others you didn't know, there's no point in discussing liberal politics with you.

if you think everything you have is from your own work alone and not others unknown to you, you aren't a liberal. you can't be.

[RB TexLa]

60. I know, it's been explained, we are stealing from you "hard working families"

There should probably be two classes of Social Security beneficiaries, at different levels so we aren't stealing from your children. That way your children won't have to "pay for my God damn Social Security!"

[CreekDog]

63. I have never uttered the phrase "hard working families"

please stick to something you know.

[doggie breath]

35. A tailight

costs less than a buck.
If the car you currently drive is more than 3 or 4 years old (let alone 20 or 30), it would cost you thousands to upgrade to even 2014 mileage and safety standards.
Take a wild guess how much it would cost you to add technologies like electronic stability control, back up cameras (soon to be required), 40+ mpg (soon), 50+ mpg (not to distant future if talking 30 year life spans for a car), 6, 9 or 10 speed transmissions that are coming to meet the CAFE requirements, engine and power train sensors to hook up to the engine and power train control modules,
frame and body modifications to meet ever changing crash and rollover requirements.
That is just to upgrade a fairly recent (late 200x model) and triple it for a 199x and triple that for a 198x.

Ecologically and monetarily you would be better off with a mandatory 6 year scrap and recycle program than trying to maintain a 10 to 30 year lifespan and mandatory technology upgrades.

[RB TexLa]

38. You wouldn't have to have every upgrade. And if governments tried to force too many they would be

voted out.

[Major Nikon]

19. My airplane is 44 years old and still flying

The reason airplanes last that long is because they are far more expensive to replace.

[Posteritatis]

30. Ship lifespans have always baffled me on that front

At the museum I work at we're in the process of putting together what's going to be a comprehensive history of any ships involved in immigration to Canada (yes, this is as absurdly huge a list as you'd think). I'm regularly surprised at the number of giant, 20,000-ton, 1,500-people passenger ships that only lasted about twenty years before being scrapped.

A lot of it in the ocean liner industry would be fashion, sure, and maritime travel's gotta be somewhat rough on the most solidly-built ships, but it's still surprised me how few ships saw into their third decade, or at least saw into it without spending years laid up in port.

[Godhumor]

53. I work in Great Lakes freighting. There are a lot of older vessels on the lake

Many in their 4th, 5th or 6th decade of service.

[bhikkhu]

56. Saltwater destroys metal

while water and many kinds of sea life destroy wood. Things just don't last that long. On the east coast where they salt the roads, cars just don't last that long either.

[MrSlayer]

28. They need repeat customers.

That's why everything is made like shit today. It's disposable stuff so you have to buy more of it. Things go bad, blow out, fall apart or just stop working by design. My grandmother's refrigerator lasted 40 years, her washer 45 and so on and so forth. Now you're lucky if you get five years out of anything at all. Things were built to last back in the day. They were made here too.

[RB TexLa]

29. And we need to take that away from the auto industry

[doggie breath]

90. And you are replying to this post

on a Commodore C64, right?
Don't know about you, but my PC-XT with the massive 640k of RAM and top of the line 20 meg HD (in 1986) just doesn't make the cut in 2013.

Your grandmother's 40 year old fridge used 3 or more times the electricity and was R-22 chloroflorocarbon based refrigerant. The washer used multiple gallons more water than today's front load ones.

I still have my 20 year old shower head and not lo-flo toilet, at least until the Feds and the EPA make them illegal to actually own.

[MrSlayer]

94. No, I actually upgraded to a a C128.

This isn't the Stone Age.

Actually grandmothers washer did NOT use more water than the washer I have today. It didn't have a spin cycle though. It had this squeezer thing on top of it. Got my hand caught in it as a kid. Ouch.

Things were absolutely built better back in the day. My Tonka trucks would outlast any cheapo Chinese piece of crap out today. An American Standard light fixture made of brass would outlast any fixture made overseas today.

You have a point about progress but it still doesn't mean things aren't built to break and wear out so you have to buy more of them.

[dipsydoodle]

31. Well I did have a 1929 Ford Model A Sport Coupe

Piece of cake to keep one of those running.

[MicaelS]

32. I AM going to say it.

And what happens to the UNION autoworkers who lose their jobs because people only have to buy a car every 30 years?

The initial capital outlay for a car is nothing compared to a plane. The Cessna Skyhawk starts at $289,500. A Beechcraft Bonanza 36 goes for upwards of $500,000. You want to pay $300,000 - $500,000 for a basic 4 passenger car? I don't. What are the maintenance costs over 30 years for the Cessna or Beech? You want a car to cost the same to maintain it? You want the same stiff regulations that apply to cars and drivers that apply to aircraft and pilots? You may not make the cut, either for your car, or you.

And you HAVE to keep that plane properly maintained unless you want to die. You want something to break on your car and then you die?

Some ground vehicles can last 30 years, if you keep them rigorously maintained, just like aircraft are done. But most people can't afford to, or do not have the knowledge to do so.

Also, the environmental and fuel economy standards of 30 years ago are much different from today. You want a bunch of 30 year old gas guzzling polluters on the road? I don't.

Yours is a naive viewpoint.

[Egalitarian Thug]

39. $$$ but, every now and them they screw up and put out a few that can.

The nation needs an enema to flush out the automobile industry. It is foul from the top to the very bottom and all of its tentacles as well. It is built entirely on theft, corruption, and lies. Worst of all, it exerts so much control over our society at large that it has become a major roadblock to any progress we might make.

One of the oldest Too-Big-to-Fail parasites still surviving on the people's labor.

[Eleanors38]

42. Years ago I fixed cars for a living. People would as me

the difference between a BMW and a Toyota Carolla:

"About $20,000, but the Toyota would break less."

[Populist_Prole]

44. Well.....

[link:[URL=.html][IMG][/IMG][/URL]|

[URL=.html][IMG][/IMG][/URL]

[lumberjack_jeff]

48. My best car is 43 years old.

[opiate69]

66. Sweet ride!

[Jamastiene]

86. I love those. n/t

[cherokeeprogressive]

51. I drive a 1972 Chevy Blazer. It's probably good for ANOTHER 40 years. n/t

[flvegan]

52. Some parts of the world do. Parts of Europe, car avg age is 15 years old and climbing.

Additionally, I'm sure that parts of the world that don't have a car dealership on every corner have a great bit of longevity. There was a time it was about the collective shitboxery that passed for cars in this country. Today, cars are more modern, efficient and safe, lasting longer.

Maintaining a car costs money. At times, lots. Additionally, people's needs change. They have kids, kids move away, midlife crisis, etc. Lastly, Americans LOVE their cars and we're epic consumers. Bigger, faster, more attractive, badge...all go into the decisions made by Americans who have a passion about cars and driving. The rest buy a Camry.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

55. If you maintained your car as well as airplanes are *required* to be maintained,

chances are it would last at least 30 years. I learned to fly in 20- to 30- year-old airplanes that worked just fine. A friend of mine has a 40-year-old Cessna 182 that's in beautiful condition. Delta Air Lines still has a few DC-9s that were built in the '70s; they are being retired only because their navigation systems are obsolete - but they run beautifully.

One of those evil, oppressive government agencies, the FAA, requires private owners to have their airplanes inspected every year, and commercial operators have even more stringent requirements. Certain parts have to be inspected or replaced on a required schedule, and all inspections and repairs have to be documented. Any car that got that kind of attention would last a very long time.

[FarCenter]

58. Table 1-26: Average Age of Automobiles and Trucks in Operation in the United States

http://www.rita.dot.gov/bts/sites/rita.dot.gov.bts/files/publications/national_transportation_statistics/html/table_01_26.html

Average age had climbed to 11.1 years in 2011 for cars.

I've kept mine from 12 to 17 years. Usually well over 100,000 miles.

[LeftInTX]

59. They get'em to last a long time in Cuba

From 2004:


From 2010:


Necessity is the mother of invention.

Edit to add: I notice most of the windows are down which indicates no a/c.
From what I understand a/c is extremely expensive to repair/replace once it goes.

[snooper2]

89. And a lot of those have toyota diesel engines or whatever else they can find

We used to build stuff like that at my friends junkyard when we were kids

[Ilsa]

61. It could be done, but I'd want periodic upgrades

Especially in safety features.

My last car was 12 years old. Engine seemed mostly okay, but other vital parts were wearing out, one of which was dangerous, if I had not heard the change going on in the axle/wheel hub.

I hope you can get spare parts for the next twelve years. Lack of parts is a reason frequently given by insurance companies to total a car that has been in a bad accident.

[cigsandcoffee]

62. Some were...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercedes-Benz_W126

Best car ever built? Maybe. Expensive? Sure was.

[coldmountain]

64. American trucks will outlast anything but the mpg isn't so good

[parkia00]

111. Absoultely agree on that point about the W126

All the Mercedes cars of that period basically fitted under that category where cars were made my engineers rather than accountants. What was deemed necessary was engineers to the best level that can be and what was not need was excluded. Minimize the bling, maximize the bang. Designed to last. Easy to work on. Cheap to maintain. Parts still after all these year easy to come by. Particularly for those cars with the M103 I6 engines. Reasonable fuel consumption plus the car isn't a slouch too. Just did a price check for an injector. Original Bosch only $38 each. But with any car that age, the Achilles heel is rust. If you find a good example with no rust like a California, Nevada, Arizona or New Mexico car with straight body, with proper maintenance you can easily run it for 20 more years. And these cars are cheap to buy now with many below $2000. It's real sad to see them end up in junkyards for minor problems because the previous owner felt that the cost for a repair was not worth the blue book value of the car.

[npk]

65. Most airplanes require constant maintenance over the course of that 20-30 years

Most airplanes receive weekly intensive maintenance programs, that would not be feasible or convenient for passenger cars. Cars are actually designed to run with very little maintenance, other than changing the oil, brake pads, transmission, etc. If passenger cars received the same level of maintenance that planes do, nobody would be able to live the kind of lifestyles and be as productive as they are today.

Also this doesn't even mention the most obvious difference, and that is money. Planes can cost over a $10 million dollars and the average car is mere a pittance compared to that cost.

[ileus]

67. 19 years for my Accord right now...

The road salt is finally starting to take it's toll on her, but I hope for at least one more year.

[CreekDog]

68. You seem to think that cars vaporize after their first owner sells them

and seem instead to be railing against people not keeping the same car for 20-30 years.

when in reality lots and lots of cars are used for that long, since cars are often sold and resold, decades after they were new.

[Godhumor]

69. You can, like airplanes and ships, you just have to be willing to put in the money and time

Maintenance, all the time, keep things like airplanes running. Cars get to a point where the cost of repair is more expensive than just getting a new car. Relatively speaking, cars, even luxury cars, are cheap. At a certain point, they no longer become cost effective, unless there is a sentimental attachment.

As I said elsewhere, I work in freighting. We spend a lot year in and year out to keep the fleet water-worthy. The cost of a new vessel is so expensive that it makes a lot more sense to just pour money into an already established freighter that has the a) capacity and b) efficiency we need.

[IdontDrinkWithU]

70. If airplanes are built to fly, why aren't cars built to fly?

There is no reason why a person can't buy a car in New York City, and then use that car to fly to London or New Jersey. Anyone who has ever watched the Jetsons knows that it is possible. Speaking of which, where the hell is my robot maid?

[NRaleighLiberal]

71. many drivers are frightening enough on the road...imagine texting at 30,000 feet!

[Enrique]

73. lol at your user name

i would welcome you to DU, but you've clearly been here a while.

[uppityperson]

75. Tell Frank hi. Eom

[kentauros]

82. "It's a totally different kind of flying, altogether!"

[Populist_Prole]

72. Lots of older commercial aircraft are rugged and last but expensive to maintain and operate

Inspections are more frequent and comprehensive, and of greater depth. Repairs during findings increase. They are much less fuel efficient: That's a real killer.

Sure the old DC9's and 727's and "classic" 737's are rugged and have the ability to haul the goods; but they'll eat you out of house and home.

[badtoworse]

74. Would you really want to own a car for 30 years?

I owned a 1980 Chevy Citation and a 1983 Old Cutlass Ciera - both were terrible cars. Even if they were reliable, cars of today offer so much more in terms of features, performance and amenities. I don't miss 80's vintage cars for a minute.

[gcomeau]

77. Because...

...you don't want to pay a quarter million dollars for a Corolla?

[HooptieWagon]

78. A well made car will last that long.

Generally what prevents people from driving them that long is that at some point a major repair to drivetrain or body exceeds the value of the car.
I drove a 1970 VW Van from 1980 to 1990. I retired it due to rust at 500,000 miles. From 1991 to 2004 I drove a 1972 BMW...retired at 300,000 miles due to rust and a wornout engine and rear CV joints. Currently driving a 1996 Touota PU, 300,000 miles, still running strong, paint fading but no rust.

[SheilaT]

79. Apparently not very many of the posters here

recall how terrible cars were in the past. Anyone who could possibly afford to bought a new car every two to three years in the 50's and 60's. You very rarely saw even a ten year old car on the road back then. It's a good thing they don't make them the way they used to.

In some cases the maintenance on those cars was simpler, but I'm under the impression that tires, just to name one component, rarely lasted more than 20,000 miles. Now we expect at least triple that, even on cheap tires.

My current car is a 2004 Honda Civic that I bought in 2007, and I only have 83,000 miles on it. It's a pretty good car, and just right for my needs. I'll be bored with it and decide I want something newer long before it's ready to be scrapped. I'm guessing it's the miles on the car matters more than how old it is. But no matter what, a thirty year old car is going to have a lot of thirty year old components, unless you've been steadily replacing and rebuilding.

[Populist_Prole]

92. Older cars were maintenance hogs

Tune-ups were needed very often; They're not really even needed anymore with electronic ignitions and long life spark plugs

Metallurgy is far better today. Back in the 1940's and 50's, and tapering off through later years to today It was routinely accepted that an engine needed a valve job ( lapping of valves and seats ) every 30K miles; It's unheard of now unless it's a defect. The need for a "valve job" would likely send a car to the junkyard today. Engines needed an "overhaul" at 60K: New piston rings, re-hone cylinder bores, new bearings for the crankshft and connecting rods. An engine today needing that treatment at anything less than 200K or more would be thought to be of inferior quality. It was just normal then

Frequent "grease jobs" for ball joints and kingpins were the norm, and even when done, these items failed quite often.

Frequent coolant flushes then were critical. We can go 100K without one now.

Complicated "Rube Goldberg" drum brakes were a pain in the ass to change, adjust, and they worked terrible, even when they were in top order.

You could go through 7 or 8 exhaust systems in the ( short ) life of a car then. Not now!

That's just the top of my head.

[lumberjack_jeff]

98. Were it not for the electromechanical parts, modern cars would last a very long time.

You're absolutely right. Old cars required much more maintenance over their lifetimes, yet they were mostly discarded for reasons not related to their reliability.

Cars can last a very long time. But in the US their value depreciates to the point that it doesn't make economic sense to repair them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yank_tank



My main commuter is a 1991 subaru loyale. 250,000 miles and going strong. The truck is a 1994 chevy k1500, 260,000 miles and going strong. My work truck is a 1986 chevy van, *at least* 285,000 miles (but showing its age a bit).

They owe their functional lifespan to the fact that they have a minimum of amenities.

[SheilaT]

110. Thank you for those details.

Among the things I remember quite vividly from the 50's and 60's was how often a car would break down. It was simply expected. Granted, my parents could not afford very good cars -- everything they ever bought was used, back when that was something of a dirty word -- and I can't begin to count the times a car would simply break down, and we'd be at the side of the road, awaiting a good samaritan to help out. Or flat tires. Ohh, the times we had to change a tire.

I'm 64 now, have been driving since I was sixteen, owned my own cars since I was 18. I've actually had two and only two flat tires in all these years, even though my early driving years were within that time frame when cars were less reliable. Nowadays I have AAA. Hopefully all of you readers have some sort of roadside assistance program of your own. I've not often had to use it, but when I had a high speed blow-out on I25 just north of Trinidad, Colorado four years ago, I was very glad for AAA. And that was only the second time in all my years of driving I've had a flat tire.

Still, I can remember when I was young, the expectation that your car would break down periodically. Gather around me, young people, and listen to the tales I tell by the firelight. Cars used to be unreliable. You could only hope to have good luck, or maybe the good (monetary) fortune to afford new cars every other year. Nowadays, even the makes and models that I formerly scorned as total crap are reliable. We expect a car to go 100,000 miles at a minimum. Those of us who trade in a car with lesser mileage do so because we prefer to drive newer cars, or perhaps for some other whimsical reason. The reliability of all cars is vastly better than it was fifty, forty, or even thirty years ago. And that's good.

They don't make them like they used to. Praise the goddess.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

80. That is more of a historical phenomenon

Changes in how airliners are financed, fuel prices and an increasing number of factory delivered freighters has seen the useful lives of airliners cut short. Smaller variants of the 737 and the A319 are also falling out of favor as larger variants that are only slightly more expensive but cost roughly the same to operate and load factors are high. The other factor is the parts value of newer planes. One of our clients is an aircraft lessor and they will be scrapping all their 737-700 as they come off lease. Not because they couldn't find airlines to take them at any price. But because they're so valuable as scrap and the parts are compatible with the larger and more popular 737-800 and 737-900.

[kentauros]

81. Because you're comparing two completely different forms of transportation.

The engines aren't the same, the bodies aren't the same, different kind of engineering goes into designing both, and you have a huge difference in the kinds of stresses involved in operating both.

Planes get maintenance and checkups far more often than cars. Imagine how much it would cost you to take your car to the mechanic (or have a dozen buddies all working on and checking your car) as often as aircraft get the same attention. And that's the other thing, it takes a maintenance crew to work on a plane. You only need one mechanic to work on a car (for most jobs.)

If you want a car that's designed and maintained like aircraft in order for it to last decades, then expect to pay more than your house for it.

[Jamastiene]

83. My car is a 1989 model.

It is 24 years old. Other than routine maintenance, it is still going strong. Yeah, it could use a new paint job, but the engine and transmission and all the other internal working parts are in great shape. Cars can last a long time. I'm not sure what the problems with newer cars are.

[MineralMan]

84. Many cars are built to last that long and longer.

What is required is that they be regularly maintained and repairs made, as needed.

Most of the Rolls Royces ever built are still in operating condition. Some are over 100 years old. The same is true for many classic automobiles. The reality is that any well-made car can have an indefinite life, if its owner is willing to maintain and repair it. Proper care will prevent deterioration of the chassis and body. It's a lot of work, but can be done. Mechanical issues can all be solved with repairs or replacement of components, most of which are still available as NOS or reproduction parts.

If this were not so, classic car shows and even displays of vintage cars on the streets of small town america could not occur. This last weekend, a show at the Minnesota state fairgrounds drew over 10,000 cars, all build prior to 1965. Many had been modified, but a lot of them were in stock condition and unchanged.

10,000 cars in one place, all at least 49 years old. All perfectly capable of being driven down the road, and rather nicely at that. All were in excellent condition, some even in better condition that they were when new. All were the pride of their owners.

The main reason cars don't last so long is that they are neglected and allowed to deteriorate. With each new owner, less and less maintenance is done, until some needed repair costs more than the car is worth. Then, it gets recycled. That doesn't have to be the case, however, and some owners keep and maintain their cars. There are million mile Volvos still being driven.

Care is the answer.

[LanternWaste]

85. Computers too!!!!

Computers too!!!! I can only hope you've bought a computer made well enough that will last you well into the 2040s.

Although I have a sneaking suspicion that you will hold the one to a different standard than other and pretend to find a rationalization as to why six of one is not in fact, a half dozen of the other...

[whistler162]

91. Because we don't have the maintence cycles of aircrats

for autos.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aircraft_maintenance_checks

[Warren DeMontague]

93. We should let JPL design our cars.

[Orsino]

97. If we had an FGA mandating regular inspections and maintenance, they would.

However, automotive failures aren't as automatically and massively fatal as are those in aircraft.

[Flyboy_451]

99. As several other people have already pointed out...

Cars can and do last that long. But, it is the owners responsibility to make this happen. Comparing the life cycle of airplanes to cars is an apples to oranges comparison. As the owner of both a vintage airplane and vintage car. I can tell you from personal experience that it is both time consuming and expensive!

A few examples...

Two years ago, during the annual inspection on my old Supercub, it was discovered that there were cracks in some of the wings internal supports, one cylinder was low on compression and turned out to have some very small cracks, along with a few other problems. After peeling the cover off the wings, doing the needed repairs, replacing the covering, painting the new fabric, and then replacing the bad engine cylinder, the total bill was about $7,400. During an annual inspection, any corrosion found must be repaired in accordance with approved methods. This usually requires some pretty intensive labor. The list goes on, and on, and on...

A typical annual inspection, that finds no major problems, averages about $1,300 for my plane, and this is partially because I assist in the process and because my planes systems are very simple. This does not include any ADs (Airworthiness Directives). Ads are required maintenance or inspections that must be completed for a plane to remain legally airworthy. These directives are put out on specific models and series of aircraft by the FAA. These actions may be based on time (accomplished every X number of months, or even hours of operation) or any other interval that may or may not align with annual inspections. All repairs must be signed off by a certified airframe and power plant mechanic or a certified aircraft inspector with appropriate ratings.

Then there are the requirements of the engine maintenance alone. All aircraft engines come from the factory with a recommended TBO (Time between overhauls). This is not a requirement, but it is a good is a good indication of how many hours the engine will operate at rated specs, when operated as specified. Operation outside of factory recommendations can shorten this time. A very common TBO for small aircraft is 2,000 hours. An engine overhaul can easily hit and even exceed the $20,000 mark. To put that in perspective, imagine overhauling your car engine every 90,000 miles or so.

Corrosion and lack of maintenance are the killers of anything mechanical.

URL=.html][IMG]

My Beautiful 1966 Pontiac Grand Prix and 1953 Piper Supercub!

JW

[leveymg]

103. We still have two 20 year old cars. The Volvo 740 is about to get its 300K badge, the Mazda Miata

is still young at 130K.

Buy good cars to begin with. That should answer your question.

[DainBramaged]

104. They do

you just have to pay attention.....and take care of your car and not put maintainance off like 98% of America does