Foul racism in the comments in my local paper re: Zimmerman trial

[yardwork]

There are still people in the U.S. who think that they have a right to kill a black man if they feel "frightened" by him.

That's what the murder of Trayvon Martin is all about. It's why George Zimmerman felt justified in trailing, attempting to apprehend, and ultimately shooting a black teenager he saw in his gated community. It's why Zimmerman's supporters are so outraged that he was charged with murder. It's why the local authorities dragged their feet before charging Zimmerman. There is a long horrible history in the U.S. of black people being murdered just because some people claimed to be "frightened" of them.

There are a lot of people who are very angry at the suggestion that they might not be allowed to kill any black man who "scares" them. It's ugly, foul, murderous racism. It's still with us in this country. The only way to get rid of it is to prosecute people who murder others. Period.

[wercal]

1. Does this paper have an online version

That can be excerpted or linked to?

[Buzz Clik]

2. indeed.

[kelliekat44]

102. Well all black men should be frightened of white people because of history. Does that mean black men

will now no longer be prosecuted for killing whites because of fear? But then, in this country police kill black men with wallets, cell phones, and armed with nothing and get away with it because they "feel" threatened. They even shoot and kill black men sitting in cars, unarmed and minding their own business. So I guess it's going to be ok for black men to start killing police because of justified fear? I mean the history of this nation is the justification by this logic.

[yardwork]

3. Yes.

I'm on my phone and can't figure out how to cut and paste links. (Advice welcome) but if you go to the following and look up any article on Zimmerman trial and read the online comments you will see....

www.wral.com
www.newsobserver.com

[Coccydynia]

17. North Carolina. Another one of those "changed" states

The Chief Justice believes justifies the gutting of the Voting Rights Act.

[alp227]

32. Just hold a link until you see menu.

Select copy then do the same for a text entry area & select paste.

[yardwork]

50. Thank you!

[Starry Messenger]

22. Yes:

Here is a story from today-

http://www.newsobserver.com/2013/06/24/2985306/opening-statements-in-zimmerman.html

[Rob H.]

23. Here's one article

Prosecutors want to admit calls in Zimmerman trial

Edit: This is posted below, too. (I should've scrolled down. Sorry, everyone.) Also, Jebus, there's someone in the comments wishing they had "100 George Zimmermans here in NC."

[yardwork]

28. Thank you.

Thanks for posting a link and pointing out one example. Comments like that are posted after every article on the case. It's been going on for months. I feel sick reading them.

[Scuba]

4. Recommend you call out not those who made the racist statements, but the paper for allowing them.

[sinkingfeeling]

5. Looks like Raleigh.

[alp227]

34. How? It's in the Research Triangle,

are you suggesting it's full of backward bigots?

[sinkingfeeling]

68. WRAL and 'The News and Observer' are both in Raleigh, NC.

[yardwork]

73. That is correct.

[Just Saying]

6. This case certainly brought the racism out of the woodwork.

I have been very offended by those that use what must be a Fox talking point saying Zimmerman has a "lynch mob" after him.

Considering the history of that term in this country, it's beyond disgusting that they would try to make that argument. Particularly when what most Martin supporters want is a fair trial.

If anyone had a lynch mob after him it was Trayvon on that night and Zimmerman was a mob of one playing judge, jury and executioner on a unarmed, teenaged kid!

[yardwork]

16. Exactly.

The Zimmerman defense is that he was terrified for his life and had a right to defend himself. But in fact it was Martin who was targeted, stalked, and murdered.

Why would Zimmerman be afraid of a 17 year old kid holding an iced tea and a bag of candy? Only one possible reason.

[Zoeisright]

7. Just look at the defenders of Paula Deen.

Racism and its attendant brutality are alive and well in the U.S.

[steve2470]

8. links to find comments:

http://www.wral.com/prosecutors-want-to-admit-calls-in-zimmerman-trial/12589512/

http://www.newsobserver.com/2013/06/24/2985306/opening-statements-in-zimmerman.html

other stories too, of course

[yardwork]

12. Thank you!

And I'm sure that there are similar comments in many other papers and websites as well.

The attitude is pervasive.

[steve2470]

13. yvw ! nt

[abelenkpe]

9. But the Supremes say we've evolved! nt

[AtheistCrusader]

10. I'm worried about the trial outcome.

I was one of the staunch 'innocent until proven guilty' posters when the story broke, but from a personal estimate, it looks like he is going to walk, and holy shit, that is bad. Bad bad bad.

The messages it is going to send...

[heaven05]

11. not good

open season, again.

[NaturalHigh]

14. I'm still one of those "innocent until proven guilty" types.

That's how it's supposed to work, right?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

21. in the court of law yes, not in the court of public opinion/discourse

[1monster]

26. Isn't this a different sort of case? Zimmerman admitted killing Trayvon. He says

it was sef-defense.

The jury's job is not to determine whether or not he killed Trayvon, because that is stipulated by Zimmerman. Their job is to decide whether or not the killing was justified. If so, then Zimmerman walks. If not, then Zimmerman does 25 to life.

In this case, unlike other cases, it is the burden of the defense to prove "not guilty" rather than the burden of the prosecution to prove guilt.

[hack89]

40. The prosecution always has the burden of proof, even in self defense cases.

you are thinking about a SYG hearing - there the defendant has the burden. Zimmerman is not using a SYG defense.

[AtheistCrusader]

31. True enough, but I can form a personal opinion without fomenting an assumption of

guilt with other people. And that is what was being done before.

[Voice for Peace]

15. why do you think he will walk?

I haven't followed it closely, but yesterday watched
the prosecution opening statement and thought it
looked very bad for zimmerman.

[demwing]

20. Why?

Opening day sucked for Zimmerman. Why the hell do you say it looks like he's going to walk?

[wercal]

27. The opening arguments sucked for Zimmerman

But Zimmerman's attorney did better with some of the witnesses. In particular, their cross examination of the police dispatcher painted him into a box, and forced him to state that Zimmerman did not seem agitated or dangerous over the phone. He also acknowledged (when pressed on it) that his asking the location of Martin, and asking which direction he was moving, could have been construed as an invitation for Zimmerman to keep following.

He was also questioned as to why he did not more adamantly tell Zimmerman not to follow Martin. His answer was the he was deliberately vague, to shield the police department from liability. That is a huge statement to make...Zimmerman is being accused of acting in such a grossly negligent manner, that any reasonable person would have know it could have caused death...and here we have a trained dispatcher who obviously doesn't think its that risky, at least not bad enough to risk a liability claim.

This guy was a disaster for the prosecution. I know alot of people here (ok 99%) are rooting for a conviction...but my prediction is a hung jury; and, after what happened yesterday, I stand by that prediction. Don't get mad at me about it, though...the prosecution did a horrible job with this witness. They let the defense ask him to speculate about Zimmerman's decision process, without objection. And, when they got a second shot at him on the stand, they failed to even address all the issues of doubt that the defense had just brought up.

I actually think it was a good day for Zimmerman, except for the opening statements.

[yardwork]

29. Yes, but all that is really beside the point.

The defense wants to focus on the dispatcher but the point is that Zimmerman shot and killed an unarmed teenager. The dispatcher didn't make him do it.

[wercal]

35. Well frankly, we haven't gotten that far yet.

The prosecution is calling witnesses in chronological order....and keep in mind that the dispatcher was called as a prosecution witness. It was the prosecution that wanted to highlight the 'f*ing punks' and 'always get away' comments by Zimmerman. Yesterday, the dispatcher was their focus.

And the defense ruined it for them. Frankly, the prosecution woul dhave been better off just playing the tape, and not calling this guy to testify.

Eventually the prosecution will turn their focus onto the actual shooting. But I was responding to a comment that Zimmerman had a bad day yesterday...objectively he didn't.

[yardwork]

51. Ok I see your point.

[AtheistCrusader]

37. That's what you need to let go of.

Yes, it's crucially important that we remember the disparity of force, and who was following who, but that is not germane to the decision of whether or not he is guilty.

The state MUST PROVE that Zimmerman attacked and killed Trayvon Martin. That moment of physical confrontation must be shown to have been instigated by Zimmerman. If the state fails, we have another Casey Anthony/OJ Simpson/etc case where any reasonable person would look at the facts and say 'that's not right, what happened there', but the person will walk anyway.

I am not confident at the moment that the state can prove that moment of initial contact in such a way as to find Zimmerman guilty of anything. Not to the standard of evidence required.

All that other stuff about following, if it could be shown to prove that his actions were premeditatedly hostile, sure, it would help, but they haven't, and that means they won't. So it call comes down to the physical confrontation, everything else is circumstantial theatrics.

[noiretextatique]

43. he got out of the car...with a gun!

if he just intended to talk to martin, why didn't he leave the gun in the car? i don't think it will be that tough to prove zimmerman was the aggressor given that fact.

[AtheistCrusader]

45. No jury would be impressed by that line of logic.

Being told to stand down, and not doing so, is more impressive, but still not a point that will hang him. He could have ignored orders, chased him down, with a holstered weapon, and if the defense can cast doubt on who started the physical confrontation, he walks.

Sucks, but that's the reality of it.

[noiretextatique]

55. yes, i understand that

and it does suck. however, i am awfully impressed by that logic, and i am not so sure a jury won't be impressed as well.

[yardwork]

56. So you're saying that anybody can shoot somebody

and then say that it was self-defense, and they're not guilty of murder?

We wouldn't be having this conversation if the victim were white.

If I chase and shoot and kill an unarmed person, very few people are going to think I had the right to do that just because I come up with some after the fact story about being in fear for my life.

Most people are going to see right through that.

[AtheistCrusader]

59. Can we have a conversation for 5 minutes without someone building an obvious strawman?

That would be stupendous.

No, I am not saying that. Thanks. Thanks for offering that clarification that doesn't even resemble my point.

[yardwork]

63. Ok. Where am I misstating your point?

[AtheistCrusader]

69. I am using the basis of the case itself as my foundation.

The question before the jury hinges on whether Zimmerman initiated the hostile confrontation.

You can be armed, and attacked by someone, and kill them in self defense.
You can be armed, confront someone and say 'hey man, you scratched my car', be attacked physically and kill the attacker in self defense.
You can string together any number of contingencies, many of them negative toward the shooter, but still be left with a scenario in which the shooter walks because the case is ruled self defense.

The criteria under which a claimed self-defense case falls apart is where the shooter initiated the fight. There is plenty of Florida case law to illustrate this. You start the physical confrontation, you pretty much give up the right to kill in self defense. The rest of that shit about following him, stalking him, profiling him, introducing a firearm into the situation, all of that factors into a civil liability case, not a criminal charge like the one at hand.

I mean, this is fucking Florida.
http://www.tampabay.com/news/courts/criminal/brandon-defendant-accused-of-murdering-wifes-lover-to-testify/2123822

[yardwork]

76. The point of my OP is that many people believe

that every black man is dangerous. People who think that way believe that Zimmerman had a right to shoot and kill Martin just because Martin was black.

[AtheistCrusader]

79. Sure, but that's not the overt question before the jury.

And hopefully the prosecution did its job during voir dire to eliminate that sentiment from the jury pool.

Whether it did remains to be seen.



This case reminds me of the phrase: 'we are juggling priceless eggs in variable gravity'.

[yardwork]

83. I hope so too.

I hope that the prosecution does a good job. Law enforcement was certainly reluctant to charge Zimmerman. I've worried about their commitment to the case.

[AtheistCrusader]

85. That's the funny thing.

Serra, the investigating officer, filed a writ recommending he be charged to the DA's office. Wolfinger declined. (the DA)


If I were to put on my conspiracy hat for a second, I'd like to see Wolfinger's phone records from the night of the shooting. See if he and Zimmerman's dad had a conversation.

But that's entirely CT speculation on my part. Yes, Zim's dad was a judge or magistrate of some sort, but it was a long way away, and possibly just a coincidence.

But I wonder.

[yardwork]

89. I remember. I've followed this closely.

Zimmerman was a loan officer (briefly, he's had a lot of jobs, none for long). I believe that his dad is probably connected with the shady real estate boom that wrecked Florida's economy with developments like the one George lived in. Follow the money.

[Pelican]

53. Some of us talk to people every day.... with a gun!

I haven't hardly shot anyone...

[noiretextatique]

57. intent

i know he is a paranoid freak, but since he took the gun out of the car, one might infer that he intended to use it, or certainly made it more likely that he would.

[yardwork]

62. Personally, I think it shows premeditation

Zimmerman's words and actions suggest that he planned to shoot "the intruder" in his neighborhood.

The fact that Zimmerman felt justified in this and that so many people agree with him is the point of my OP.

In the U.S. a lot of people still think they have a right to kill black men and they are furious at the suggestion that they might not have that right anymore. They've gotten away with it for a very long time.

[noiretextatique]

77. jury nullification was standard practice, especially in the south

which is why medgar evers' killer wasn't brought to justice for 40+ years. i like to remind people of that history when they start with the OJ bullshit. how many people got away with murdering black people all over this country...for years and years? lots. and yeah, some people, including some hear, think they have the right to question the existence of black people...period...and shoot them if they are "suspicious." .

[Pelican]

64. Again, terrible reasoning...

Are you trying to say that he didn't have a gun, saw Martin and considered him such a threat that he went back and got his weapon?

[noiretextatique]

70. he got of out the damn car WITH A gun

what part of that are you not grasping? a kid died because he got out of the car with a gun. he wasn't a cop, he wasn't even a neighborhood watch person, so why would he take a gun out of his car to confront martin, unless he planned to use it? his bullshit "i was scared" defense just doesn't make any sense. if he was scared, why did he get out of the car?

[Pelican]

84. Aside from your personal opinion... what does that have to do with the case?

He doesn't have to be a cop or a member of neighborhood watch to exit his vehicle with a weapon.

Millions of people get out of their cars and have conversations with people every day with a gun without intending to go blasting away.

[noiretextatique]

87. while stalking a black kid? miss context much?

after making inflammatory comments about "those people always getting away with it?" after being told to stand down by the dispatcher? sorry...i don't think it is normal, reasonabile, or rational to confront someone with a gun, unless you are charged to do so, e.g., a police officer. perhaps you exist in a vacuum, but i hope the jury doesn't.

[Hoyt]

91. Zimmerman would not have gotten out of his car without a gun, gun toters are like that.

[Pelican]

100. As opposed to what?

Leaving it on the seat?

[wercal]

44. 2nd Degree Murder

I don't think the state has to prove who started the physical confrontation.

Under 2nd degree murder, Zimmerman can be found to have been 'grossly negligent' when he pursued Martin. That is the heart of the case...whether or not a reasonable person would have know this could have led to death.

However, the defense tore apart the dispatcher yesterday, and practically hollowed out this angle of the case.

[AtheistCrusader]

46. Yeah, it was surprisingly ugly.

I just have a feeling they aren't going to get him. Not on the main charge anyway.

[CreekDog]

74. wow, sounds like a set of instructions

call someone a punk

follow them, carry a gun

they end up dead

claim self defense and no jury will convict you

[AtheistCrusader]

78. That's one of the messages that I am terrified that this case will telegraph.

And this isn't new territory really.

You probably remember me from the Gungeon. You know I carry, that I am active in self defense training circles. There is a lot of just unmitigated bullshit out there that people believe that just isn't so, like 'drag the intruder inside' if you shoot one, shit like that. So many pervasive and harmful cultural memes that those of us on the gun-using side of society have to work to eliminate.

What you just listed is exactly what this case has all the appearances of, and that is horrifying. Even though we have some recent cases of people being convicted of similar behavior. Doesn't matter. People who want to leverage this shit practice confirmation bias to the max. If it doesn't fit into their desires, the fact is discarded.

I really hope the prosecution can show what it intends to show. Vital that it does.

[yardwork]

82. I think you're agreeing with my OP

But I'm not sure.

[AtheistCrusader]

86. Generally I do.

Yes. I think there are people that believe what you described.

I think they are completely wrong, immoral, and I think rule of law usually catches them out when it happens, at least some of the time.

But even then, you have dead victims, even when the justice system does recognize it.

[KamaAina]

88. More like another Rodney King case

L.A. x 1000.

[yardwork]

90. You're proving the point of my OP

Oh those scary black people!!!! They will riot!!!!

Question. Have you ever been in central Florida?

[KamaAina]

93. Grandma and Grandpa retired to Ocala

and I am not thinking of the immediate Sanford area so much as the rest of the country, if someone stalks and kills a black man and walks.

I imagine many white people would join in such a protest (think Occupy).

[yardwork]

98. Occupy is non-violent.

[AtheistCrusader]

99. It could.

If justice is not served, humans typically resort to other means to equalize imbalances.
Much like JFK's comment on the closing off of public discourse. It has consequences. So too with impotent or perverted justice.

[pscot]

30. proof beyond a reasonable doubt

If his lawyer is any good, he'll probably walk.

[wercal]

42. I was in a jury pool once

And during the selection process, the prosecutor did a masterful job of lowering our expectations of 'beyond a reasonable doubt'.

He spoke of the 'CSI Effect', which I have heard in the news about this case. And, he tried to make us feel foolish and almost ashamed, if we expected irrefutable DNA evidence, as seen on tv.

He also asked if beyond a reasonable doubt meant absolutely positive...and how could we be absolutley positive, unless we had seen the events with our own two eyes.

It was masterful, really - and he won the case - a 'he said' 'she said' date rape case.

So the standard can be met. But I think the prosecution blew it yesterday. We have the dispatcher saying he didn't tell Zimmerman, in absolute terms, not to follow Martin....because of liability issues?!? Yet, Zimmerman is supposed to know that a reasonable person would assess following Martin to be deadly dangerous??

The case is really won right there, as far as 2nd degree murder is concerned.

[yardwork]

49. It's not about the dispatcher.

That is a distraction. The dispatcher didn't tell Zimmerman to pull the trigger.

[wercal]

54. If he is such a distraction

Then why did the prosecution call him?

The case has never been about pulling the trigger. The prosecution has already ceded that ground by not charging with first degree murder. Under the second degree murder statute in Florida, the case has always been about the situation that led up to the confrontation...and yesterday the dispatcher did not help the prosecution one bit.

[yardwork]

47. Proof of what?

The prosecution has to prove that Zimmerman shot and killed somebody. The defense has to prove it was self-defense. Since the victim was unarmed, that defense is going to be difficult to prove imo.

[wercal]

58. Not at all

The prosecution most definitely does not have to prove Zimmerman shot Martin.

Under the statute for second degree murder, they have to establish gross negligence led up to the confrontation. It doesn't matter one bit who pulled the trigger, as he could have just as easily been charged with this is Martin had grabbed the gun and accidentallt shot himself.

[demwing]

94. Actually the defense doesn't have to prove anything

just tear little holes in what the prosecution has to prove. In other words, instill reasonable doubt.

Has that been done already? Not bloody likely.

Could it end up on that path?

Yep.

[VWolf]

18. Remember Bowling For Columbine?

Michael Moore did a pretty good job demonstrating how people are indoctrinated to fear "the black man". And it's very, very disturbing.

[yardwork]

19. Yes. We ignore this at our peril.

[Starry Messenger]

24. k&r

[caseymoz]

25. I used to have arguments with conservatives

who claimed racism was behind us and anyone who complained about discrimination now was just "picking at a scab."

Oh, I wish I could have linked them to the many racist commentators that have been crawling around on the Internet the last few years.

And the SCOTUS has set the stage for more race riots. And wouldn't you know, the justification was by looking at the "original intent" of the identifiably racist "Founding Fathers."

[noiretextatique]

36. not just conservatives

or perhaps some of them are conservative democrats. you can find zimmerman apologists right here on DU who advance the same foul arguments.

[noiretextatique]

33. absolutely correct

and unfortuntely, that belief is held by some who are not members of the GOP.

[noiretextatique]

38. it's telling that some believe zimmerman, no body cop-wannabee has some "right"

to question tryavon's martin existence. that mindset reeks of privilege and racism.

[alp227]

39. You can thank right wing online media

Fox Nation, The Blaze, World Net Daily, Hot Air, and talk radio as well for indoctrinating the nation in right wing misinformation that spreads into mainstream discourse.

[yardwork]

48. This attitude predates the Internet

It predates TV and radio. This attitude goes back more than 100 years.

[noiretextatique]

61. correction: 400 years

at least.

[yardwork]

65. Yep. Got particularly bad in early 20th century.

When black people began to receive constitutional rights there was hysteria. The Klan, etc.

[noiretextatique]

41. these same people would be equally up in arms if zimmerman was a dark-skinned latino

Last edited Tue Jun 25, 2013, 01:48 PM - Edit history (1)

who killed a white kid, but they'd be clamoring for zimmerman's head instead of definding him.

[yardwork]

52. Yes, and the shooter would have been charged immediately.

And nobody would be defending the killer.

[noiretextatique]

60. not a single faux news/rw hate radio asshole would defending the murderer

and they would not be complaining about "innocent looking" photos of the victim. there would be no talk about the victim's "big city" attitude, and lno attempts to blame the victim. all the racism directed at victim would be directed at the killer. the very same people who claim racism doesn't exist are guilty of perpetuating it.

[yardwork]

67. And if the killer had been convicted of assault

on a police officer (!) - as Zimmerman was - can you imagine?

[noiretextatique]

72. he would be lucky to make it to trial

and i doubt there was be all this hand-wringing about a "fair" trial.

[Kingofalldems]

66. I see the gun fanciers out in full force here

Not so secret admirers of Zimmerman. Also most likely republicans IMO.

[demwing]

95. Can't you just disagree with someone without pretending they're a Republican?

I'm fucking sick of this sort of bullshit on DU, it adds to the suck.

I'm sure you are a very nice progressive, and I agree with your basic comment: "the gun fanciers out in full force here" -- but that's where it ends.

[Kingofalldems]

96. When someone is a big supporter of the NRA

which is run almost entirely by hard core right wingers, it's pretty obvious to me anyway. You are free to disagree.

[Hoyt]

71. Yep. That's what stand your ground laws, lax gun laws, etc., are about for the most part.

There's a gun shop that does YouTube marketing videos. One of the videos had this yahoo talking about gun recommendations in case "a brown person wanders across your lawn." Sick bastards.

[yardwork]

80. Yes. Thank you for that example.

[apples and oranges]

75. There may be hope. Elisabeth Hasslebeck is still outraged by what Zimmerman did

and she's immersed in right wing media and thinking. Maybe the women of the jury will be fair.

[yardwork]

81. I have a lot of hope that the jury will see this for what it is.

[Hoyt]

92. Now that is interesting. If Zimmy gets convicted, they'll appeal saying the jury didn't include

macho gun toting bigots.

Before jury selection, I figured it would end up a hung jury with at least one bigoted gun lover holding out. Not sure how it will go now.

[animato]

97. k n r

[yardwork]

101. Responses to local media getting more and more overtly racist.