Ed Snowden: Leakers “should be shot in the balls,” and "cut this Social Security bullshit"

[BeyondGeography]

In 2009, Ed Snowden said leakers “should be shot.” Then he became one

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/06/exclusive-in-2009-ed-snowden-said-leakers-should-be-shot-then-he-became-one/

Note: Snowden went under the name< TheTrueHOOHA> on #arsificial, a channel on Ars Technica's public Internet Relay Chat (IRC) server.

Leakers should be “shot in the balls”
Snowden may have leaned libertarian on some issues, but he also exhibited strong support for America's security state apparatus. He didn't just work for it as a quiet dissident. Four years before he would leak the country's secrets, Snowden was cheering its actions and insisting that it needed healthy funding. To anyone who questioned US actions in his favored online hangout, he could be derisive.

Livid about the across-the-board defense cuts that were planned under Obama, Snowden acidly joked that "[m]aybe we could just outsource our defense needs to india."

Worse yet, during a remarkable January 2009 chat, Snowden wrote that Obama had "appointed a fucking politician to run the CIA." In that same conversation, he vented his rage over reading a New York Times article about US actions in Iran, which was based on confidential leaks.

< TheTrueHOOHA> HOLY SHIT

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/11/washington/11iran.html?_r=1&hp

< TheTrueHOOHA> WTF NYTIMES
< TheTrueHOOHA> Are they TRYING to start a war?
Jesus christ
they're like wikileaks
< User19> they're just reporting, dude.
< TheTrueHOOHA> They're reporting classified shit
< User19> shrugs
< TheTrueHOOHA> about an unpopular country surrounded by enemies already engaged in a war
and about our interactions with said country regarding planning sovereignity violations of another country
you don't put that shit in the NEWSPAPER
< User19> meh
< TheTrueHOOHA> moreover, who the fuck are the anonymous sources telling them this?
< TheTrueHOOHA> those people should be shot in the balls.

There's tons of libertarian swill here, btw. A sampling of his views on Social Security:

Once Obama took office, Snowden groaned about his policies with increasing frequency. Fears that Obama might revive an assault weapons ban didn't sit well with him as a defender of the Second Amendment. Another sticking point was social security. Snowden was an individualist, even when it was unpopular; he saw little need for a safety net.

< TheTrueHOOHA> save money? cut this social security bullshit
< User11> hahahayes
< User18> Yeah! Fuck old people!
< User11> social security is bullshit
< User11> let's just toss old people out in the street
< User18> Old people could move in with [User11].
< User11> NOOO
< User11> they smell funny
< TheTrueHOOHA> Somehow, our society managed to make it hundreds of years without social security just fine
< TheTrueHOOHA> you fucking retards
< TheTrueHOOHA> Magically the world changed after the new deal, and old people became made of glass
< TheTrueHOOHA> yeah, that makes sense

[AtomicKitten]

1. You've struck gold, BG.

k&r

[sabrina 1]

92. Looks like he was very smart. He knew he was being spied on, like all of us, and he created

a 'pro-the-security state' profile to deflect suspicion from himself, even if at that time he was not planning to do what he did, thankfully.

Smart guy, looks like he fooled a lot of people

I bet his interviews for the job, which were outsourced, no? will be the next thing we see, and I bet he was gung ho for all the wars etc.

But otoh, he may have, like Drake and Binney and Ellsberg actually supported all this, until he saw how dangerous what they are doing really is, what a threat to this democracy..

As Binney said 'they didn't care that they were breaking the law, they were going to do it anyhow'.

Funny how some people think that any of this is about Snowden. But for those who understand the magnitude of the problem, we can only for more Snowdens and Drakes and Binneys and Mannings. They may be jerks, scumbags, or heroes, it doesn't matter, but someone has to warn the people about the vast out-of-control surveillance state we have allowed to grow and grow to the point where it may be too late to save this democracy. But I hope not.

[Myrina]

104. ^^ This, for the win ^^

n/t

[Coccydynia]

118. Well said. Well said.

[leftynyc]

139. Or

he's just a fucking hypocrite.

[sabrina 1]

155. Doesn't matter, what matters is what WE are. I can't think of anything more

hypocritical than claiming to be a democracy while spending billions of dollars on a vast surveillance infrastructure and claiming we 'need it for our security'.

I can't think of anything more hypocritical than swearing to 'Defend and Protect the Constitution of the US' while dismantling all the protections of people's rights contained within it.

I can't think of anything more hypocritical than calling HIM a hypocrite IF we support the destruction of people's rights while claiming to be 'fighting for our freedoms'.

I hope, if he really was so gung-ho for the war machine and the surveillance state, then changed his mind after he saw what was going on, that there are going to be many, many more who will have a similar awakening because we so badly need them to expose these anti-democratic policies before it's too late.

[leftynyc]

178. Oh - for Heaven's sake

Is it really so impossible for you to keep two separate thoughts in your head. That the Patriot Act was an abomination that needs to be overturned - that Snowden didn't leak anything that wasn't already known by anyone who was paying attention, he didn't uncover illegal activity and that Snowden is a right wing hack and hypocrite. Get him off the pedestal you've provided him...you'll feel better once you do.

[sabrina 1]

193. The president disagrees with you. Surprised you didn't know that the 'it's just old news' excuse

was dropped after the acknowledgement that these were 'leaks' by the President himself. Unless he is less informed than you are, I'll take his word for it.

But if you were correct, we don't prosecute people for recycling 'old news'.

As I said, what matters is what we have learned and so far done nothing about which is shameful, since the great WOT became the excuse for the total destruction of our Constitutional rights with the bonus of Billions of Dollars being funneled to the very people who are doing it.

[leftynyc]

207. You're beginning to bore me

with your arguments. The Patriot Act put all this in motion, until the outcry against the bush administration, warrants were not needed, now they are. That people like you didn't realize the vast amount of info that could be collected under it is your problem alone.

Your hero gave specific IP addresses to the Chinese about which sites we were monitoring - that had nothing to do with "spying" on Americans. It was the cost of the Chinese protecting him and that's where he really fucked up - that's when he went from leaker to criminal. And still you worship him...pretty disgusting. Your arguments aren't worthy of an 8th grade debate class.

[JDPriestly]

245. Don't you think the Chinese knew what was going on?

In one post, you state that everyone who was paying attention already knew about this surveillance. Now you say that the Chinese did not know which of their sites were of interest to the US.

Your arguments are contradictory. It's called intellectual flailing. We all do it, but please note that the Chinese were probably among those paying very close attention to potential surveillance of their sensitive information. Snowden told US things that we did not know or were not paying attention to. If the Chinese had learned something new from Snowden or thought they could, they would probably have been even more hospitable than they were.

Please clarify.

[leftynyc]

376. AMERICANS should have known

what the government was up to. Why would the Chinese know the specific IP addresses - that's the kind of info THEIR spies are looking for so your hero just handed them that. Is it really so hard to understand that there was no new news concerning what the government was capable of in this age of essentially free information and knowing SPECIFIC sites and addresses that the government were looking at and those were just handed over to a government (and I'm sure the Russians are getting the same show) that is less than friendly to the US? Really? Too hard to understand? There is nothing inconsistent here - Americans should have known (many did and tried to raise the red flag). Stop being so gung ho about keeping snowden on a pedestal - he's a sleazy criminal.

[JDPriestly]

405. I place myself in the position of the Chinese.

Last edited Thu Jun 27, 2013, 03:20 PM - Edit history (1)

I would have figured that the US government would watch all of my IP addresses.

I have stayed away from Facebook and My Space and Twitter because I figured that not only could the government look at all of my data but a lot of other people could figure it out too.

Of course, I give my data to some commercial websites. If you order online, that's what you are doing. If you use Paypal, that's what you are doing.

I have always figured that what I do on the internet could be watched by the government if they wanted to watch it.

I've had some odd experiences that caused me to think something like could be going on although I am not at all a very interesting person, and my political views are pretty mainstream Democratic.

But, I did not know some of the details. I had not thought about the value of metadata. Actually, Obama and others in the government made me more aware of that aspect of this than did Snowden. From Snowden's statements, I thought that the problem was a lot of low level NSA contract employees sneaking peaks at data that they wanted to see. From the statements of members of Congress and the President, I have understood that it is much worse than that.

The government has utterly no business collecting all that metadata on ordinary citizens like me who read the news, watch movies, check knitting sites and cooking sites and gardening sites and communicate with neighbors, friends and family on the internet. It is a huge waste of money and an invasion of privacy. It chills speech. It chills political speech and, for no good reason, even other personal speech.

In the case law, violations of the First Amendment tend to center on the government's barring or potentially barring speech based on content that is political or religious or something of that nature. Here, the kinds of speech of ordinary people that are being chilled is much broader. It is, however, the fact that people might be less free to express or protest speech that is political or religious including complaints about government repression or excesses or failures that is the most troubling. The effect of the simple knowledge about a government program this well organized and coordinated with an elite, secretive group in our government on our so-called "free" press is just devastating to our ideas about democracy and freedom of information. There can be no "free" press as long as this vast surveillance is going on.

I understand that through understanding metadata and the social networks that it reveals, the government or any other group can actively influence opinion and the perception of facts. That is or at least borders on propaganda. Again that is inconsistent with a democratic government of the people, by the people and for the people.

The government should not be at all involved in shaping opinion.

[leftynyc]

408. I do a bunch of shopping online

but other than that, whoever is checking out my online history is bored silly...that doesn't mean I don't find data mining incredibly creepy and the one thing snowden did that was beneficial was get the people who weren't paying attention before to wake up and understand the laws that were passed during the bush years...the ignorance of what has been going on since 2002 (and is continuing under this administration) is stunning.

And now, I really have to go. Heading to JFK for my annual vacation. It's been nice conversing with someone who doesn't think I'm a freeking fascist for not agreeing with them.

[sigmasix]

303. this x 1000

leftynyc is right on the money. Snowden has been sufficiently exposed as another anti-Obama-bot with right wing sentiments and a hypocrisy-ridden world view. It seems that some people will call him a hero even if they caught snowden eating live babies- as long as he is claiming that the president is an evil creature with plans to destroy America and to spy on every american all the time. It makes no difference to the Obama Derangment Crowd that snowden has shown himself to be a dishonest traitor to America- because he doesnt like this president. No amount of truth will persuade ODS folks to give president Obama a fair shake. Snowden worshippers aren't much different from other hate-filled conspiracy theory mongers- and now the world has proof of snowden's lies and partisan character assasination of the president.
snowden fans will continue to demand that the rest of america take thier hypocritical fears and notions about the president seriously. Intelligent, non paranoid Americans will continue to see these people for what they are; extremist reactionaries that hate the guy in the white house (who knows why- maybe his skin color or his student loan stand makes them hate him. Or the hatred is because he cleaned the NSA up to require warrants- or the hatred could stem from the color of his skin. Maybe they hate him because he has done so much for equality of marriage, or maybe it's just his skin color.
Maybe they hate him for saving our economy- or perhaps it's just his skin color. Maybe they are disgusted by the notion of universal health care- or the disgust may come from his skin color.)
Snowden fans have all kinds of excuses to hate the president- but the one they accuse him of is an obvious lie- this president does not want to spy on every American- that was Bush that did the spying and Obama repaired all of the unAmerican, warrantless spying programs used by Bush. Obama Derangement Syndrome has very wealthy underwriters and evil sneaky weasels working hard at spreading the derangement. Congratulations Snowden fans; you've just been exposed for what you are!

[mimi85]

314. Well said!

[leftynyc]

381. I will never understand the hero

worship of this creep. It's like the sycophants think if they don't worship snowden, it's saying they don't believe the information when nothing could be further from the truth. That's the way children unable to process complex thinking reason things out.

[Tarheel_Dem]

411. ^^^ This ^^^

[sabrina 1]

318. What are you talking about?? Warrants were ALWAYS needed. A Whistle Blower leaked the info

about Bush and his war criminals spying on the American people ILLEGALLY. Got that?? Bush broke the law. Do you know anything about the Constitution at all??

Bore me?? People who are so completely cavalier about human rights, and we ARE talking about that, who don't even know the laws of this country, yet expound on how we don't need them, or WORSE think Bush acted LEGALLY and our wonderful Congress 'fixed the problem', SCARE ME!

Here's what happened, the NYT published leaks thanks to another Whistle Blower which revealed Bush's illegal spying, which was ILLEGAL because he broke the law regarding the 4th Amendment (remember that?) requirement that no one can be intruded on by the government WITHOUT A WARRANT, and the can't get a WARRANT without PROBABLE CAUSE.

So, instead of impeaching him, our wonderful Congress DID THE OPPOSITE of what you appear to thing. THEY CHANGED THE LAW, retroactively, to legalize what Bush did and his telecoms, TO GET HIM OFF THE HOOK.

Iow, we had laws in place, requiring warrants. Congress WEAKENED those laws, they DID NOT FIX the law THEY WEAKENED the FISA Bill, to protect Bush.

I'm done talking to someone who does not even understand what happened and why there was so much outrage over the FIX you are claiming 'made the law better'. It did the OPPOSITE.

Enjoy yourself trying to defend what you apparently are not even aware of.

Go learn about this issue before you attack people who KNOW what they are talking about.

Unbelievable!

[leftynyc]

377. You are very mistaken

and I'm going to use a source that I know you trust to prove it. Warrants WERE NOT being issued for the bush administration until the outcry:

http://glenngreenwald.blogspot.com/2005/12/purposely-misquoting-fisa-to-defend.html


snip:

But that does not stop Al Maviva from arguing that the Administration was allowed to engage in warrantless eavesdropping on terrorist groups pursuant to this section. To argue this, he purports to quote the authorization language of § 1802, but omits from his quotation the part of the statute which entirely negates his argument -- namely, the part which limits this authorization to subsections (1)-(3), but excludes subsection (4).

Be very careful in saying someone else doesn't understand something. It makes you look very foolish.

[sabrina 1]

380. Good lord, are you seriously not getting it, or pretending not to get it?? Who said Bush was

getting warrants issued, HE WASN"T. Because he is a criminal, he was BREAKING THE LAW. Greenwald is of course correct.

Now try to read this slowly please, it's a question:

IF someone doesn't get a warrant issued and they are breaking the law, what does that mean??

Bush DID break the law, you realize that I hope, or this is a useless exercise. Now scroll down ...













Bush broke the law by not getting warrants, because WARRANTS WERE ALWAYS REQUIRED TO conduct any kind of surveillance.

Now why do you think Bush/Cheney by-passed the FISA COURT?

BECAUSE THEY WERE SPYING ON AMERCIANS!! AND THE FISA COURT CANNOT ISSUE WARRANTS TO SPY ON AMERICANS. Again, read slowly please:

It has ALWAYS BEEN ILLEGAL TO SPY ON AMERICANS. IT IS STILL ILLEGAL TO SPY ON AMERICANS.

I hate to shout, but this is ridiculous. Are people really this uninformed, and is that why they are supporting something so egregious, so anti-Constitutional?

The FISA COURT CANNOT ISSUE A WARRANT TO SPY ON AMERICANS! Do you understand now? I hope so!

Unbelievable.

[leftynyc]

382. You are completely misunderstand what

I'm writing and it's beginning to look like you don't want to understand so I'm done with this crap. Keep up your worship of this creep - it doesn't make any difference to me but it looks like his number is up with many on this board so I'll be content with that.

[sabrina 1]

401. I understood perfectly what you wrote. And anyone who uses the talking points 'fans' 'worship'

'cheerleader' gives themselves away beyond a shadow of a doubt.

I am happy to see the worldwide support for Whistle Blowers this week. His 'number' is irrelevant, something else you don't understand. He said it himself, it won't matter what happens to him, it matters what happens to this Democracy and that is all I care about.

Shameful that this country has one of the most massive surveillance programs in the history of the world. We can only hope that Democrats like Wyden and Udall, Grayson and Conyers, real Democrats, can prevail in forcing Congress to do something to stop it.

[JDPriestly]

241. Perhaps you know all this, but I didn't.

I had never seen a court order from the FISA court before. Had you? And the guidelines with regard to how the data is handled after its collection, had you seen those?

Most of us don't pay that much attention to these things. I certainly didn't. No reason for me to pay a lot of attention. I trusted my government. Most Americans do.

[leftynyc]

375. I never trusted Bush & Cheney

and there were plenty of people (some in congress, some just on TV) who complained LOUDLY about what the repercussions of the patriot act would be. It was that knowledge that got congress to make sure warrants were needed in the first place (they weren't being used at first and THAT definitely was not constitutional and in fact I'm sure dick had a confab with tony who no doubt told him he would lose that case in a 9-0 decision.

The patriot act is still too broad, too cumbersome for a country who wants to be considered free and that's a conversation that needs to be had TODAY. I find it amazing that so many people here, most of whom I would consider extremely well informed are shocked, JUST SHOCKED at the info that they are now being forced to acknowledge.

[arely staircase]

212. It is NOT about Snowden!

unless you love him.

[davidpdx]

332. ROFL

[Number23]

312. Can you believe this garbage?

I will remember that idiotic post the next time someone calls an Obama supporter a member of the "cult of personality" a "cheerleader," "robot" or other 3rd grade pejorative.

or he's just a fucking hypocrite.

Nah, much too simple a conclusion. Someone as wise and omnipotent as Snowden can't simply be an Obama hating Republican trying to score points against the president.

[bunnies]

183. Nth dimensional chess?

[arely staircase]

327. well played

[arely staircase]

216. yeah he is a genius

who is stuck at the airport in Moscow and takes advice from the dude who is stuck at the Ecuadoran embassy in London. Brilliant, that one.

[MADem]

384. It looks like Ecuador's ardor is cooling, too. He may be in that airport for awhile!!!

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/26/edward-snowden-asylum-ecuador_n_3502098.html

Patino refused to say what criteria Ecuador would use to decide, but added that his government would "consider all these risks," including concerns that it would hurt trade with the U.S. and his country's economy.

That repressive nation that puts restrictions on press freedoms would rather continue a key trade relationship in this hemisphere, it would appear, than tweak the nose of their main trading partner by harboring a narcissistic megalomaniac.

[OilemFirchen]

293. Kudos!

The Snowden Haters simply won't understand the three-dimensional chess that savant Snowden has been playing. I would bet that he's been planning this since he first noticed Scully grudgingly agree with Mulder.

No doubt he parsed every comment on IRC to appear exactly the opposite of his crime-fighting super-liberty pro-citizenry hero self. The part about bad Swiss water almost had me fooled.

And the lying on applications? Brilliant! What better way to fuck with government than by taking their six-figure jobs, living in their four bedroom apartments, luxuriating in European holiday spots, all the while working to secretly undermine them?

I can see why you love Snowden. You are very attuned to the criminal industry which is masquerading as our government. Clearly, a lying, conniving, thieving poseur is the very best poster child for an exposition of this sort!

[sabrina 1]

296. Lol, he just doesn't matter. I'm sorry you're so obsessed with HIM. I am obsessed with our

Constitutional Rights and I don't like peeping toms even under the best of circumstances, such as 'for your own good'.

[Bobbie Jo]

305. ROFL

[Number23]

315. For the win.

For the freaking win.

That post upthread will go down as probably one of the most desperately dumb things I've ever seen here. And Good God, that is TRULY saying something.

[Tarheel_Dem]

415. You Sir, Win This Thread!!!!!

[Mojorabbit]

313. Great post! nt

[bluestate10]

316. You are one of the serially posting people that rip President Obama over reforms to Chained CPI.

I am interested in reading your defense of Snowden wanting Social Security eliminated with elderly people being left 100% to their own devices. Snowden DIDN'T know he was being spied on, because he wasn't. Do you seriously think a highly secret and militaristic organization would allow Snowden to walk out with secrets that it didn't want out if it was spying on Snowden all along?

[sabrina 1]

320. I will check back periodically to see a link to ONE post, just ONE, of mine 'ripping the President'

that was ever written by me. It should not be hard to find.

Either post it or do not dare to accuse me of something you are imagining in your own head. I CRITICIZE policies but rarely EVER attack people PERSONALLY. AND I will continue to oppose the cutting of SS no matter what deceptive name those cuts appear under.

I don't care about Snowden, he's a big boy and knew what he was doing.

I care about the information WE THE PEOPLE now have as a result of the Whistle Blowers who over the past ten years have notified the American People of the illegal activities of their Government. And there will be more as the Surveillance State continues to grow, out of control, because we have not done enough to stop it.

It is now up to the people to get these 'secrets' out of the dark and into the light.

[wtmusic]

222. Fools gold.

If that's the best the hatas can do, that's laughable.

[Cha]

330. Yeah, Snowden being the hypocritical FOOL.

[bluestate10]

317. The Snowden apologists will figure out some way to pull the blinders tighter over their

eyes and keep viewing Snowden as some national hero. Snowden is a treasonous fraud.

[JaneyVee]

2. He also said "Thank God for wars". Looks like he's trying to start one.

[mike_c]

3. OK-- now what do you think about broad electronic surveillance without probable cause...?

It doesn't matter if Ed Snowden eats kittens for breakfast-- the NSA is still spying.

[BeyondGeography]

5. I'm really thinking about this here

How do you wind up in a transit lounge in Moscow without any takers?

[mike_c]

18. no, you're avoiding it like the plague...

I don't care one whit about transit lounges. How do you feel about broad NSA electronic surveillance without probable cause? How do you feel about abuses of the Patriot Act for purposes of data mining about ordinary, private citizens?

[leftynyc]

142. I'm against it

The Patriot Act is disgusting law and should be overturned. And Snowden is a criminal and a hypocrite.

[mike_c]

160. OK....

I honestly don't know what to think about Ed Snowden personally-- I'm grateful that he revealed the perfidy of the NSA and its ilk. I'm inclined to disagree that he's a "criminal" simply because he broke some laws that we both seem to agree are unjust. After all, the people who defended Jews in Europe during WWII were likewise "criminals," as were the stations along the Underground Railroad. Laws often exist to shield the powerful from the consequences of their actions-- "national security" laws are often among the most egregious, obsessed with keeping secrets from the very people they are meant to serve. So I think that history will have to judge Snowden's criminality.

I certainly don't know him well enough to say-- or to dispute-- whether he is a "hypocrite." As sabrina1 points out up thread, many of the statements now being used to illuminate his personal shortcomings are things that we might all say in order to get a job with a major government security contractor-- I mean, they'll probably never hire me if they look at my internet presence since 2000.

[leftynyc]

184. No - we don't agree

that the laws he broke are unjust - leaking classified documents is a very serious crime - leaking them to a Chinese newspaper is downright disgusting. Running all over the place trying to find a place who wants to keep this disgusting lawbreaker that cannot be trusted is pretty freeking funny.

Sabrina1 is trying to think of any excuse to keep snowden on a pedestal - also pretty funny.

[mike_c]

202. did you support Nixon's persecution of Daniel Ellsberg?

Your comments re: "leaking classified documents is a very serious crime" would seem consistent with that view. Would you have supported prosecution of Deep Throat, had his identity been revealed in time? Both leaked classified, secret information to the press.

And do you support the use of secret courts, secret laws, etc to determine what should be hidden from the American people? Again, that seems consistent with the views you've expressed.

[leftynyc]

210. Yes and yes

You see, true heroes do what they perceive to be the right thing even when they know it's illegal and they will have to pay a price. They don't go to countries that want to hurt us and leak classified documents. (Frankly, I'm not aware of any classified documents that Deep Throat passed on).

As far as you last paragraph, I guess I need to fucking tattoo it on my forehead that I think the NSA is out of control and the patriot act is a disguting mess - I've only had to say it a couple of dozen times when people want to change the subject.

[cynzke]

254. Apparently,

Some people here won't be satisfied until you get that tattoo. We don't all have to beat the drum in unison. How dare anyone make comment about Snowden UNLESS they equally comment about the NSA. This is about the NSA and this is about Snowden. It can be about both and discussing one or the other does not negate the importance of either. If someone chooses to talk about Snowden, that is not a challenge against others who want to post about the NSA. Some people are saying we are not focusing on the NSA. Yes you are, some of you are talking about that. Doesn't mean that we all have to at the same time.

[davidpdx]

337. I totally agree

While I am not happy what has been revealed, I think it presents and opportunity to discuss it and clarify what is going on (within reason) and the safeguards and oversight that is needed. At the same time I believe what Snowden did was wrong and one way or the other he'll have to live with it whether or not he gets caught (just because he doesn't get caught doesn't mean there isn't some form of consequence). The third issue is contractors and security clearances which I think is also important to discuss. The entire thing is not one dimensional, but has many sides as well as many problems.

Oh, and welcome to DU

[cynzke]

406. Thank You.

This IS a multi dimensional issue and we are more that capable in discussing more than one aspect of the issue at the same time. We can agree or disagree on opinions expressed but it disturbs me to see people deciding what people comment on. Seems to me an attempt at censorship. If you don't like someones opinion, disagree or skip it.

[grasswire]

266. true heroes do what they perceive to be the right thing even when they know...

...it's illegal and they will have to pay a price.

That's exactly what Snowden did. He thought that blowing the whistle was the right thing to do, despite any illegality, and he knew very clearly that he would have to pay a price.

So I guess in your book he's a true hero. Eh?

[OilemFirchen]

308. He's a special class of hero.

Cowardly, traitorous, ego and hate-driven, war-loving, social safety net-hating, money-grubbing, thieving, privileged and bigoted.

But he hates Obama, so he has an adoring crowd here.

[grasswire]

311. you keep telling yourself that lie -- that people who don't hate Snowden...

.....do hate Obama. That is a construct worthy of the most dogged RW spinners.

Some of us are able to hold two thoughts in our heads at the same time.

[OilemFirchen]

328. And the same to you.

I've read plenty of posts telling me that if I don't adore Snowden then I'm an Obamabot. Even more often, that I'm an authoritarian, that I have no problem with Big Brother spying on all the peons. That if I don't believe every last word out of Glenn Greenwald's maw, I likewise don't believe in the Fourth Amendment.

BTW, I am sickened by the antagonistic tone of some here. Though I've been a member since the beginning, I rarely posted and, once this manic period of mine subsides, I likely never will again. DU has changed, grasswire, and not for the better. I know that I'm a smartass and make no excuses, but I try hard to keep that impersonal. That said, the aggressive animosities of some (not you, FWIW) disgust me.



Also BTW, and completely O/T, I believe there was a time long, long ago when we were friends. Pathfinder days. I think I helped you out a troll when DU first began. I may be mistaken and if so, please disregard...

[leftynyc]

378. Why are you putting words in my mouth?

I never made that claim (dont hate snowden=hating Pres Obama). What are you babbling about? I have no idea what's behind the laughable attempt to keep snowden a hero. It's a much more obvious issue that one can't detest what the NSA is up and still think snowden is an asshole.

[Tarheel_Dem]

416. Naomi Wolfe made a similar argument to yours, and was quickly & summarily thrown under the bus.

"It's a much more obvious issue that one can't detest what the NSA is up and still think snowden is an asshole. "

[davidpdx]

338. I'm sure you'll have to say it a dozen more times

and still be treated the same way (the definition of insanity would fit in well right about now). The issue is multi-dimensional with the NSA activities, Snowden, and the contractors that have security clearances.

BTW I advise against the tattoo, it would hurt too much and would leave a permanent mark

[leftynyc]

379. Actually, I'm not crazy about tattoos

The only one I ever saw that I enjoyed was a Yosemite Sam one on the chest of our high school football quarterback. The rest are meh.

[treestar]

295. I agree about the attempt to keep him on a pedestal

It's downright funny! Maybe he was faking to fit in! Maybe he changed his mind! Increasing desperation.

[JDPriestly]

240. +1000.

[RC]

235. I have trouble wrapping my head around being against the Patriot Act and its abuses, and at the same

time, being against anyone exposing those abuses.
That does not compute for me.

[randome]

237. It's easier when you tally up the evidence Snowden has provided.

Then the scales, for me, start to tip in the direction of Snowden being an emotionally isolated guy living in his fervid imagination.

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]I'm always right. When I'm wrong I admit it.
So then I'm right about being wrong.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[RC]

257. What does that have to do with Snowden exposing evidence of the abuse of our Rights?

I really don't much care where Snowden mind lives, he did the rest of us a service and is making the power mongers squirm. That alone has to be good.
All you are doing is attacking the messenger and down playing the good he did.

[randome]

263. Like I said, what did he expose?

That metadata is being collected? We already knew that.
That the NSA spies on other countries? Knew that, too.

All his other claims are based on taking his word on them. If he had anything near the access he wants us to believe he had, why didn't he get evidence to support any of it?

Even the Wikileaks lawyers don't want to touch him, now. They've probably interviewed him and come away with the conclusion that he's really a loon, is my guess.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023101737

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]I'm always right. When I'm wrong I admit it.
So then I'm right about being wrong.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[RC]

267. So what's the problem then?

Fire him and don't give him any severance pay.

[randome]

274. Not knowing what other documents he has makes him potentially dangerous.

He's claimed he has a database of agents but I'm guessing this is more smoke in the vain hope that the U.S. will back off.

If he was able to get such a list of agents (and someone pointed out it's very doubtful that such a list would be maintained in a database in the first place), then he should have been able to get other evidence of the NSA's alleged 24/7 spying on America.

So I trust him as much about the agent database as I do about the other things.

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]I'm always right. When I'm wrong I admit it.
So then I'm right about being wrong.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[RC]

278. Those are his life insurance policies.

We as a country do not have a very good human rights record.

[Maximumnegro]

282. His life insurance policy is to imitate every spy/espionage movie ever made?

"I have multiple copies of X. If you kill me, X will be revealed and the world will know."

Oh my god. He's so brilliant. He is so genius. I bet a government has never dealt with THAT before.

[RC]

300. Just because the idea was used in a movie, doesn't make it a bad idea.

Maybe the movie idea came from real life. Whatever, it still sounds like a good idea, because, you know, it works?.

[treestar]

297. He didn't expose "abuse of our rights."

That question is simply not that black and white. Government access with a warrant to metadata is at least arguably OK. Had he exposed a secret prison camp for political prisoners it might be a different thing.

[JDPriestly]

255. Snowden is a nerd. That's what people don't understand.

He sees the world in terms of systems, not in terms of vague miasma. That he is a libertarian is consistent with my thinking. He plotted out his course, and he is following through.

People have different concepts of honesty and integrity.

It is possible that what he saw in his work devastated his sense of order, his sense of understanding and controlling the system of his life. This was a personal act to find his path.

You and I might choose to act differently. Had I been asked to do things that were morally repugnant to me, I probably would have just bungled my job subconsciously and gotten out of the job that way or left silently. I'm not one to carry tales out of school. That's the way I was raised and that is deeply ingrained in my personality.

On the other hand, Snowden may still be a CIA agent trying to find out what happens to leakers and the information they take with them when they leak.

But my guess is that he is simply a nerd who was deeply offended when he learned that the system in which he was working did not meet his idealistic standards.

[ConservativeDemocrat]

180. I'll reply to your point...

> How do you feel about broad NSA electronic surveillance without probable cause?

The same way I feel about having to share extremely sensitive financial details of my life with the IRS.
(Because I want a tax system to fund social services.)

The same way I feel about having a cop surveying thousands of innocent motorists on a freeway to catch drunks.
(Because I don't like drunk drivers.)

The same way I feel about my Social Security number being used across all government agencies.
(Because I'd prefer the government to provide services with the minimum amount of waste.)

- - - - - - - -

The bottom line is this: either you believe in (these highly limited) programs run by U.S. law enforcement to attain certain social benefits (legally, and subject to court oversight), or not.

If not, go live in a nice government-free Libertarian paradise like Somalia. They have no NSA there, although they do have quite a bit of terrorism (which you're clearly not worried about).

- C.D. Proud Member of the Reality Based Community

[mike_c]

195. ah, the right wing talking points have arrived...

...complete with "love it or leave it." My friend, we will simply have to agree to disagree. Indiscriminate electronic surveillance is not "highly limited," and its "legality" is simply cover for unethical government behavior. But I'll be sure to send a postcard from Somalia!

[ConservativeDemocrat]

223. And this is why we don't have any discussion...

You beg for a question to be answered. But when it is, and you are unable to address the points raised, you then hold your breath until you turn blue, complete with a mindless appeal to tribalism.

In point of fact, while I am absolutely on the conservative end of the democratic spectrum, defending the IRS and the laws that at least make some small attempt to have a progressive tax system in this country, is a liberal position. And for all your petulance, people on your side of the fence make absolutely no attempt to make a distinction between the IRS and the NSA. In fact, you can't even find any example of injustice arising from this NSA oversight at all - it's all just "they could potentially abuse this, maybe, in my fantasy anti-government dreams". There's more abuse of police discretion in local cops breaking up a typical Saturday night bar fight than this.

So yeah, pal. You don't like that the majority of the public doesn't agree with you? You don't like that we have black president? You don't like that a handful of government agencies maintain very private records on people in order to perform their specific tasks, subject to judicial oversight? You really only have three choices: A] Suck it up, B] Make some actually cogent arguments intended to persuade, or C] Leave.

- C.D. Proud Member of the Reality Based Community

[mike_c]

225. "You don't like that we have a black president...."

Ok dude. We're done. Welcome to Ignore.

[ConservativeDemocrat]

250. Never raised a stink about the NSA under Bush...

Or Clinton.
Or Bush Senior.
Or Reagan.
Or Carter.
Or Ford.
Or Nixon.
Or Kennedy.
Or Eisenhower.

But when it's Obama, then the presence of the NSA and the FISA court system means the U.S. is heading towards fascism and the government is untrustworthy.

Yeah, my "ignoring" pal. You're not fooling anybody.

- C.D. Proud Member of the Reality Based Community

[randome]

259. Woah.

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]I'm always right. When I'm wrong I admit it.
So then I'm right about being wrong.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[Jamaal510]

307. +1

[Cha]

340. The Obama hate is strong with Snowden.. dripping with

hypocritical venom.

Another member of the Reality Based Community.

[Whisp]

341. Thank you - so very well said!

[RockaFowler]

407. I don't like this program, but damn that was good

It has been going on for a long time. And I just heard from someon else today that we are headed towards Nazi Germany. I asked repeatedly what Freedoms have we lost since Obama became President?? The only reply is strange paranoia - it's gonna happen, I see the signs now. So you didn't see any of this Naziism when Bush was President when the Patriot Act was signed, but now it's here. People are so blinded by their hatred of this man.

[Tarheel_Dem]

418. And that my friend, is what is known in the business as a:

[MADem]

248. Wow, cheap shot. You didn't answer the poster, you just characterized him with that "right wing

talking points" shit.

The Snowden defenders are on both sides of the party divide. So are the Snowden detractors. This is not a left v. right issue at all, and to characterize it--and people who take one view or another--thusly says much about you but nothing terribly exalting.

[mike_c]

256. "if you don't like it here, move to Somalia...."

Paraphrased from memory-- the dude went on to directly accuse me of racism, so he's joined a select fraternity of (mostly tomb stoned) DUers on my ignore list. Ignoring ConservativeDemocrat IS my answer.

[MADem]

264. Just ignore, then--don't sink to the level of the person you are decrying.

It sets a poor example for newcomers, who read that kind of stuff in these contentious threads, and think "Oh, that's the way the game is played here--shitflinging!" Then they get all pissed when they get a post hidden.

I love a sharp retort as much as the next person, and give bonus points for extreme wit and humor, but I prefer it to be issue-based, not coming from a "You must be a ......." perspective. That's just namecalling, and it's lazy.

[flamingdem]

28. BG, Maduro of Venezuela is now considering an asylum request for Snowden

In my opinion they'll only take him if Russia sweetens the pot.

They have the least to loose since their relations with the USA are already sour. Still, they'll have to review the potential damage.

Snowden won't be too happy there unless he's supported very well financially. It's expensive to live well there and the crime rate is quite high. He won't want to be living just anywhere. Plus, it's a populist government, socialist, will be ironic to see how that works out for him.. they have transparent democratic elections so he has cover there.

[MADem]

97. Guess who VZ's BIGGEST trading partner is?

It's us--yes, US, USA, USA, USA.

They might want to check with Iran and see how well sanctions work for them. We could be assholes if we were so inclined--in fact, they've gotten a taste of it for transferring petroleum to Iran.

VZ is a crime-riddled hellhole, unless you can afford to live in a gated community (and you're not crime free there, either--it's just "less&quot .

About the only country with sufficient degrees of economic separation is Cuba--and even they like the money they are getting from family visits and people-to-people tourism.

If I were VZ, I would not trust Russia to keep paying for Snowden after they take him on--I think he's a stinky, smelly hot potato who will cause more trouble than he's worth.

The following two government documents tell the real tale re: US-Venezuelan relations. They need us way more than we need them. Also, if they piss us off, that could be problematic for Cuba, because we know that some stuff that is shipped to VZ ends up on Fidel's island, while we look the other way. (Note for those concerned w/copyright--these are US government documents; they're OURS, we paid for 'em)
Skim these:

http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/35766.htm

(More at link, this is the key bit)

Bilateral Economic Relations

The United States is Venezuela's most important trading partner. U.S. exports to Venezuela include machinery, organic chemicals, agricultural products, optical and medical instruments, autos and auto parts. Oil dominates U.S. imports from Venezuela, which is one of the top four suppliers of foreign oil to the United States. About 500 U.S. companies are represented in Venezuela. U.S. foreign direct investment in Venezuela is concentrated largely in the petroleum, manufacturing, and finance sectors.

In 2011, the Secretary of State decided to impose sanctions on Venezuela's state oil company (PDVSA) for delivering at least three cargoes of reformate, a blending component for gasoline, to Iran between December 2010 and March 2011. The sanctions prohibit PDVSA from competing for U.S. Government contracts, securing financing from the Export-Import Bank of the United States, and obtaining export licenses.

http://www.ustr.gov/countries-regions/americas/venezuela

U.S.-Venezuela Trade Facts

U.S. goods and services trade with Venezuela totaled $62 billion in 2011. Exports totaled $18 billion; Imports totaled $44 billion. The U.S. goods and services trade deficit with Venezuela was $26 billion in 2011.

Venezuela is currently our 14th largest goods trading partner with $56 billion in total (two ways) goods trade during 2011. Goods exports totaled $12 billion; Goods imports totaled $43 billion. The U.S. goods trade deficit with Venezuela was $31 billion in 2011.

Trade in services with Venezuela (exports and imports) totaled $6.5 billion in 2011 (preliminary data). Services exports were $5.6 billion; Services imports were $814 million. The U.S. services trade surplus with Venezuela was $4.8 billion in 2011.

Exports

Venezuela was the United States= 26th largest goods export market in 2011.

U.S. goods exports to Venezuela in 2011 were $12.3 billion, up 15.9% ($1.7 billion) from 2011, and up 122% from 2000.

The top export categories (2-digit HS) in 2011 were: Machinery ($3.0 billion), Electrical Machinery ($1.7 billion), Organic Chemicals ($1.3 billion), Optic and Medical Instruments ($810 million), and Vehicles ($682 million).

U.S. exports of agricultural products to Venezuela totaled $1.2 billion in 2011, the 20th largest agriculture export market. Leading categories include: soybean meal ($260 million), wheat ($253 million), and coarse grains ($237 million).

U.S. exports of private commercial services* (i.e., excluding military and government) to Venezuela were $5.6 billion in 2011, 14.3% ($708 million) more than 2010, and 71% greater than 2000 levels. The travel and other private services (telecommunication, professional, business, and technical services) categories accounted for most of the U.S. services exports to Venezuela.

Imports

Venezuela was the United States= 9th largest supplier of goods imports in 2011.

U.S. goods imports from Venezuela totaled $43.3 billion in 2011, a 32.3% increase ($10.5 billion) from 2011, and up 132% from 2000. U.S. imports from Venezuela account for 2.0% of overall U.S. imports in 2011.

The five largest import categories in 2011 were: Mineral Fuel and Oil (crude) ($42.0 billion), Organic Chemicals ($309 million), Iron and Steel ($263 million), Aluminum ($169 million), and Fertilizers ($152 million).

U.S. imports of agricultural product from Venezuela totaled $5 million in 2011.

U.S. imports of private commercial services* (i.e., excluding military and government) were $814 million in 2011, up 8.1% ($61 million) from 2010, and up 37% from 2000 level. The travel and the other transportation (port services) categories accounted for most of U.S. services imports from Venezuela.

Trade Balance

The U.S goods trade deficit with Venezuela was $30.9 billion in 2011, a 40.1% increase ($8.9 billion) over 2010. The U.S. goods trade deficit with Venezuela accounted for 4.2% of the overall U.S. goods trade deficit in 2011.

The United States had a services trade surplus of $4.8 billion with Venezuela in 2011, up 15.5% from 2010.

Investment
U.S. foreign direct investment (FDI) in Venezuela (stock) was $12.1 billion in 2011, a 24.6% increase from 2010.

U.S. direct investment in Venezuela is primarily concentrated in the manufacturing and nonbank holding companies sectors.

Venezuela FDI in the United States (stock) was $3.8 billion in 2011, up 30.9% from 2010.

The distribution of Venezuela’s FDI in the United States is not available.

Sales of services in Venezuela by majority U.S.-owned affiliates were $3.0 billion in 2010 (latest data available), while sales of services in the United States by majority Venezuela-owned firms were $714 million.

[BeyondGeography]

138. "I think he's a stinky, smelly hot potato who will cause more trouble than he's worth."

Precisely. Why any state would want to give up something of value for this flake (does anyone know what he will say/do next to embarrass his hosts or what other information is out there?) is hard to fathom.

[mike_c]

167. hey, you still haven't responded to my question about indiscriminate electronic surveillance....

Do you support indiscriminate electronic surveillance of ordinary private citizens without probable cause?

[BeyondGeography]

170. Not at all

[mike_c]

174. thanks

eom

[BeyondGeography]

197. I also think the state secrets privilege can be easily abused and am glad the 9th Circuit

reinstituted the Jewel case, which always deserved a fair hearing.

[MADem]

253. Maybe North Korea will take him...? nt

[Cha]

344. Thank you for the info on VZ trading with us, USA USA USA, MADem.

that's a lot of Trading $$$$$$$$

[Tarheel_Dem]

419. MADem, I adore you because you always come prepared. That is very useful information, and a very...

good explanation as to why Comrade Eddie is still holed up in an airport. Being the #1 economy, and last superpower does have it's perks.

Trade Balance

The U.S goods trade deficit with Venezuela was $30.9 billion in 2011, a 40.1% increase ($8.9 billion) over 2010. The U.S. goods trade deficit with Venezuela accounted for 4.2% of the overall U.S. goods trade deficit in 2011.

[MADem]

422. Ideology goes out the window when cash goes on the barrel.

No one--least of all Maduro, who is up to his chin in mierda these days--is going to put principle ahead of billions, especially in the context of the rather dire situation that VZ finds themselves in. They can't even operate a "just in time" economy. When basics like toilet paper can't make it to the store shelves, never mind flour for arepas, cooking chickens, and other very basic market basket items, that is indicative of an economy in grave crisis. The Boligarchs try to suggest that it's a massive plot by "enemies" and "evildoers" (they're holding the toilet paper hostage, perhaps?) but it's indicative of pisspoor management. Ya gotta pay your bills, otherwise the deliveries won't keep coming. Ya gotta plan ahead, and order before you run out.

Now, if the Russians, or the Chinese (who already own a TON of the debt of both Ecuador and Venezuela--they've got their hands in everyone's pockets) decided to pick up the banner and ease their debt in exchange for giving Snowden a room, well, anything could happen. I don't think Russia has the scratch to do that without pain to their own economy. I also don't know if China wants to throw billions at a country for that reason, particularly since they know it would just piss us off, and we're they're largest customer. And we Americans can turn off our 'consumerist' urges if we get pissed off enough.

I think that's why Beijing told Hong Kong to get rid of Snowden--they flipped the script. I'm sure back in the halls of power of Beijing, they're laughing their asses off at how they managed to extract the maximum "benefit" from the Snowden Imbroglio, unload him just in time so that US didn't get totally bullshit at them, and further, turn him into "Putin's Problem." It's a Win-Win-Win for the People's Republic, that's for sure!

[Tarheel_Dem]

423. "It's a Win-Win-Win for the People's Republic, that's for sure!"

[MADem]

433. Hard to know if the Chinese handed Pootie Poot a Pig in a Poke...!

Time will tell, I'm sure!

[Tarheel_Dem]

435. Time will tell indeed. I haven't seen the movie, but that graphic is so appropriate.

[MADem]

437. It's not awful--there are worse ways to spend a couple of hours.

Tom Hanks plays a guy from an "Eastern bloc" country who is a tourist on a visit, whose passport is rendered no good because his country has a revolution while he's on the plane.

He is stuck in the terminal, Catherine Zeta Jones is a sympathetic flight attendant, the guy who runs the terminal plays the mean asshole who wants him out of there. You see him washing his clothes in the bathroom, trying to sleep, working for food, etc. Nice little story arc, but I won't spoil it!

[flamingdem]

447. good analysis of the hot potato scenario

But it looks like Ecuador is going to step up since the hoped for trade agreement looks in doubt

[MADem]

456. Correa is saying si, si, and his Foreign Minister is saying no,...fuck, no!!!

There's a shitload of posturing going on right about now, particularly since Ecuador was "caught" in a huge, stinking lie (muchas gracias, UNIVISION!) --they said they didn't give him a travel pass, and they did. Funny how Hong Kong can go over some documents (like US extradition requests) with a fine-toothed comb, but they didn't notice that there was no signature on an Ecuadorian travel document? Sniff, sniff--the bullshit is DEEP up in here! That's the reason that USA is continuing to press Hong Kong even though the horse has left the barn.

That said, there are no "done deals" at this stage, poutraging notwithstanding...we'll see what happens when doors are closed and voices are lowered:

Long layover: Ecuador says it could take two months to decide on Snowden's asylum
Russian officials say NSA leaker Edward Snowden is still in a Moscow airport.


By Whitney Eulich, Staff writer / June 27, 2013
http://www.csmonitor.com/World/terrorism-security/2013/0627/Long-layover-Ecuador-says-it-could-take-two-months-to-decide-on-Snowden-s-asylum

Some speculate Ecuador is taking its time considering the asylum application in order to come across as seriously weighing the legal implications of Snowden’s asylum request; others point to the windfall of media attention Ecuador garners while the decision is pending.

Mr. Baus stated that Snowden’s application "will be reviewed responsibly, as are the many other asylum applications that Ecuador receives each year.” Ecuador does have an extradition agreement with the United States, but makes exceptions for political crimes, reports The Christian Science Monitor.....Betty Tola, the minister of political coordination, said the asylum request had not been processed because Snowden, who is believed to be at Moscow airport, was neither in Ecuador nor at an Ecuadorean embassy or consulate. "The petitioner is not in Ecuadorean territory as the law requires."
Tola also said Ecuador had not supplied any travel document or diplomatic letter to Snowden, who is reportedly marooned in Moscow airport's transit lounge because his US passport has been invalidated.

A document leaked to Univision on Wednesday showed that someone at Ecuador's consulate in London did issue a safe conduct pass for the fugitive on June 22, as he prepared to leave Hong Kong. The name of the consul general, Fidel Narvaez, was printed but not signed.

Tola said it was unauthorised: "Any document of this type has no validity and is the exclusive responsibility of the person who issued it."

The renunciation underlined divisions within Ecuador's government between leftists who have embraced Snowden as an anti-imperialist symbol and centrists who fear diplomatic and economic damage.

Church ain't out in Ecuador yet--I'm sure, once the firebrands sit their asses down and think about it, they'll start to realize that they can't live on love and pale moonlight. Unless the Chinese are willing to subsidize them thoroughly (and in that case, they might as well change their currency from the US dollar--that IS what they are using, now--to the Yuan) they are taking a huge risk, showing the world their ass, in effect, for petit principles. They are also risking population dissatisfaction--Correa won't be able to do any of that populist bullshit if he doesn't have any money to make things happen (he's already in debt up to ass to China--they owe them a bundle).

Irony, too, that they have recently passed new laws that prevent journalists from saying anything "bad" about people who are in power. So much for truth and justice and all that happy horseshit!

[flamingdem]

458. Agree on all points, here is Ecuador today I presume contradicting the hot rhetoric about trade

Ecuador has no plans to halt commerce ties over Snowden: Correa

(Reuters) - Ecuadorean President Rafael Correa said on Thursday he had no plans to cut off commercial ties with any country as a result of pressures over potential asylum for former U.S. security contractor Edward Snowden.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/06/27/us-usa-security-ecuador-trade-idUSBRE95Q1EK20130627

[MADem]

459. He knows full well that if he unilaterally declines tariff relief, which is being held out as a

carrot, but will be denied as a stick, that it will--no matter how much he claims otherwise--impact Ecuador's trade posture. We can buy roses and broccoli anywhere. We don't NEED them. We like them, certainly, because they are good, reliable suppliers, we like the people, we like good relations, etc., but we can adjust. Colombia would love to pick up some of that slack.

If Correa tries to poke Obama in the eye over this matter, all he'll do is fuck up his own people. They know it; he knows it, too.

What Correa needs to do is assign someone to London who will stuff a sock in Assange's mouth. He already fired one ambassador for failing to control the guy, the next one needs to pull the phone out of his room and cut off his net access unless he behaves.

Assange has inserted himself in this story, and HE is the one who told the media that Snowden was going to Ecuador and Correa was giving him safe passage. Like I said a while ago, I wouldn't be surprised if the Ecuadorians get so sick of that loudmouth that they slip him a mickey and trundle him, in his bed, out to the sidewalk for the bobbies to pick up...!

[MattSh]

47. Wow, you've seen him there?

Better tell these guys...

Hordes of journalists armed with laptops and photo and video cameras have camped in and around the airport, looking for Mr Snowden or anyone who may have seen or talked to him. But after talking to passengers, airport personnel, waiters and shop clerks, the press corps has discovered no trace of the elusive leaker.

Russian news agencies, citing unidentified sources, reported that Mr Snowden was staying at a hotel in the transit terminal, but he was nowhere to be seen at the zone's only hotel, called "Air Express.''

It offers several dozen capsule-style spaces that passengers can rent for a few hours to catch some sleep. Hotel staff refused to say whether Mr Snowden was or has in the past stayed there.

"We only saw lots of journalists, that's for sure,'' said Maxim, a waiter at the Shokoladnitsa diner not far from Air Express. He declined to give his last name because he wasn't allowed to talk to reporters.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/travel/news/no-sign-of-nsa-leaker-edward-snowden-in-limbo-in-moscows-sheremetyevo-airport/story-e6frg8ro-1226670546516

Or are you taking Putin's word on that? I guess Putin's the man and Snowden's not.

[flamingdem]

62. My analysis: he's in the Venezuelan Embassy and was whisked away under diplomatic immunity

upon arrival. Those fancy consuls and lawyers ain't hanging around some Russian airport hotel. They're drinking vodka and fussing over Snowden at an embassy, if they even bothered to stay within that grey area of diplomatic immunity.

Two people left the plane before the others and left in a car with diplomatic plates, such was the story by a Russian journalist

[MADem]

106. Wasn't their a BMW with Ecuadoran flags parked outside the transit area?

Maybe they've got him!

[flamingdem]

117. yes, I think the journalist thought it was Ecuadoran plates

but that it might have been Venezuela as well

[MADem]

260. I really can't tell, but this was the pic I was thinking of--the Russian press says it Ecuadorian!

http://english.ruvr.ru/news/2013_06_23/Ecuadorian-Ambassador-to-meet-Snowden-in-Moscow-Ecuadorian-media-8903/

[flamingdem]

268. Someone mentioned that he might not be in the Ecuadoran embassy

if he was attempting to get asylum there.

Perhaps this is why they are so tight lipped about where he went.

Maybe they started with him at the Venezuelan embassy then when it became more evident
that Ecuador might say no - they moved him to the Ecuadoran embassy.

Or maybe he's at an airport hotel, just not directly at the airport since someone posted that
russia has some provision for direct links to area hotels without getting a visa..

Note that Ecuador has now asked the USA to justify its request /position on Snowden!

they have to look tough

[JDPriestly]

239. Beyond Geography, did you read the story "The Man Without a Country"

when you were in school?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Man_Without_a_Country

[BeyondGeography]

388. I haven't...thank you

Last edited Thu Jun 27, 2013, 08:53 AM - Edit history (1)

Yet another cultural gap to be filled, which I live for. You know, I grew up in the 60s and was out of the country from the ages of 17 to 23. By the end of it, I didn't really want to come back; the only thing I really missed were the sports. This was back in the early 80s with Reagan and all, and I thought the whole place had gone stupid. The politics here are still a slog, but I've had a blessed and easy life when it's all said and done, nothing extravagant, but every opportunity to be happy and to grow, and most of the significant wounds have been self-inflicted. If you are fortunate enough to be healthy and educated, this is one of the earth's favored places. And if you're from here, of course, it's home.

When this story broke and I saw Snowden was only 29, I winced. Too early to do something like that to yourself. Too many imponderables and a permanent disfigurement in his relationship with his country, which he had probably come to despise and take for granted. He has an awfully long road in front of him and much to learn.

[MADem]

385. China scraped that shit off their shoe pretty quick....

Maybe he didn't have anything in his little laptops of tricks that trumped an existing economic relationship...? Or that China didn't already know about, thanks to their PLA Unit 61398?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PLA_Unit_61398

[BeyondGeography]

395. Hacking is a primary Chinese economic and military strategy, as you well know

A substitute for their non-existent innovation culture, which thrives here. A new book out on that...not sure it's for the beach though:

http://www.amazon.com/Chinese-Industrial-Espionage-Acquisition-Modernisation/dp/0415821428/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1372336844&sr=1-1&keywords=China+industrial+espionage

[MADem]

429. Hee hee--At that price, I'd rather buy ice cream for the kids at the beach, and read the

recently released govt report....bet they say substantially the same thing, with more detail in your reference!

They don't have to sell me on the premise, though--anyone who hasn't been aware of China's strategies really isn't paying attention.

It's funny, YEARS ago, I heard a very old guy in Europe, an MD who had seen a lot of upheaval, long dead now, rest his soul, predict the rise of China in just the fashion that they've managed to do it. This was just a casual conversation, before the Nixon trip, back when the Chinese were Behind the Great Wall and a mystery to much of the world. Thinking back on the conversation, he was channelling Nostra-frickin-damus! Freakishly accurate, down to the consumerist face of the place. Wish I'd asked him for stock predictions and sports scores!

[KittyWampus]

12. two somewhat separate issues, isn't it?

[mike_c]

21. yep, and only one of them will be of lasting, historical importance to ordinary American citizens...

The OP is barking after the irrelevant one, presumably to divert attention from the real issue.

[leftynyc]

149. Uh - no

I think the OP is pointing out that in regards to the person who people here were holding up as a hero and worthy of the Presidential Medal of Honor is not only a criminal, he's a hypocrite.

[mike_c]

168. I'll refer you to my response to your earlier comment in #142

eom

[TalkingDog]

29. Thank you. The word of the day is Stellar Wind

n/t

[Chan790]

55. I'm a legalist.

A court has ruled it legal so it's legal. When a court rules it illegal, it will no longer be legal. Asking how I think about that is like asking for my opinion on gravity. If you're asking how I feel about the underlying morality of it, that's not the same question.

Generally though, I have a small and narrow interpretation of privacy and so I see nothing wrong with the NSA conducting surveillance on public communications. If you don't want to be subject to that surveillance, don't use public communications protocols. You have no more expectation of privacy over the phone or internet or the postal service than you do shouting over a radio or on a crowded street.

[mike_c]

81. thanks for a cogent response on the primary issue....

I must respectfully disagree with your faith in legalism-- recall that owning slaves was completely legal at one time in the U.S., and that crimes the Nazis committed during the 20th century were entirely "legal" as well. In fact, part of the legal framework that the U.S. has been so busy dismantling over the last decade or so grew out of prosecutions of Nazis at Nuremberg after they presented the same argument you've presented-- it was all "legal." Denying women the right to vote was also legal, as were Jim Crow laws even quite recently. Until this very morning it was legal to deny federal benefits to gay and lesbian couples. It is presently legal to kill someone in several states in order to avoid the embarrassment of fleeing from frightening behavior. Laws are routinely used to provide cover for immoral or unethical activity by powerful people.

But even from a legalistic perspective, how do you KNOW that broad electronic surveillance without probable cause is "legal?" The authorization is granted in secret, by secret courts interpreting secret memos that define secret "laws," and surveillance is conducted in secret by secret agencies using secret means. How can you know whether ANY of that is "legal" if you can't possibly know anything about it other than it's existence?

[nadinbrzezinski]

84. So you know

Every state that has created tyranny has made it very legal.

I would be careful.

Also the same secret court aparentky had a finding of violating the constitution in 2011. They might actually release it...now that it is a town cryer secret.

[leveymg]

166. Stellar Wind and Thin Thread were the previous programs. Not legal, at all.

You and I have very different expectations of privacy. Fortunately, I believe most Americans still expect that the 4th Amendment covers the content of their voice and email communications. Certainly, the law is clear about the contents of mail.

[temmer]

234. So let's fuck human rights - do I understand you correctly?

And, pssst...everything what Hitler did was legal. Legalized by his own felonious laws.

[aquart]

261. BECAUSE IT'S A SPY AGENCY!

Now my question is how much duplication there is between the CIA and NSA.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

6. He sounds mentally disturbed and deranged like most right-wingers

Should be taken under consideration by his enablers.

[flamingdem]

31. Yes, the head lawyer for Wikileaks has declined his case

Gurzon said no gracias after meeting with him no doubt, or simply hearing the facts on his case

[Whisp]

35. oh? that's huge, no? can I have a linkie plse? n/t

[flamingdem]

39. Why yes and you can have a whole Prosense thread!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3101737


http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/shortcuts/2013/jun/25/wikileaks-baltasar-garzon-edward-snowden

this is the article I posted on the thread

[Whisp]

40. ty! *reading. n/t

[uponit7771]

116. +1

[MADem]

281. I'l bet that was a massive disappointment...who wouldn't want to be represented by a lawyer with a

cool name like Baltasar?

I'll bet it also set him back a step, that he couldn't get backing from Assange's lawyer. Maybe he's starting to understand the difference between receiving stolen property and stealing property for transfer/dissemination to third parties...?

[randome]

283. Maybe those 4 laptops are filled with nothing but games and porn.

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]I'm always right. When I'm wrong I admit it.
So then I'm right about being wrong.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[MADem]

289. Woulldn't it be something if the guy was just a big phony? A BSer with attitude?

His grand "proof" of wrongdoing hasn't arisen....he has a powerpoint presentation and a FISA warrant that does not say what he claims it says.

Maybe this guy will follow him around the Russian airport all day!!!

[flamingdem]

353. That's why we haven't heard from Putin after that squealing pig comment

The media is calling but all they get is "he'z buzy pleaz to call back lator"

[flamingdem]

350. I love that name too! I wanna meet that guy

just because of his name. Also, because he was intelligent about his choice of client

[Cha]

349. thank you, flamingdem.. Bless all ya'll hearts for keeping us

uptodate!

[avaistheone1]

33. Reporting unethical behavior is mentally disturbed and deranged?

Wow I think you've listened too much to Fox News.

[baldguy]

67. Saying leakers should be shot one day, then being a leaker the next is.

[avaistheone1]

82. May I remind you... Obama (2007): "That means no more illegal wiretapping of American

citizens. No more national security letters to spy on citizens who are not suspected of a crime. No more tracking citizens who do nothing but protest a misguided war. No more ignoring the law when it is inconvenient."

[baldguy]

120. Nobody's phone is being tapped illegally.

That's one of Snowden's lies that is so conveniently glossed over by his fans.

[avaistheone1]

187. Like hell.

[tblue]

242. How do you know, baldguy?

Congress isn't even privy to all that's going on. And there is every reason to lie about it. In any case, it might not happen now, but the infrastructure is all primed for whatever nefarious PTB want to snoop on our private communications in the near future.

[baldguy]

280. .

Are you gonna trust him? Or are you gonna trust a self-serving douchebag like Snowden who has lied about pretty much everything?

[tblue]

238. Whatever happened to that guy?

Did the Body Snatchers get him?

[bluestate10]

319. The Bush Administration was wire-tapping americans without a warrant and it had

disbanded the court that decided whether people's phones or emails could be tapped. President Obama Administration re-instituted the court and got warrants to wire-tap. There is a huge fucking difference between the two and attempting to minimize that difference isn't adhering to fact based decision making.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

91. Apparently you didn't read the original post

Or you think eliminating Social Security and saying old people can deal with it is reasonable talk.....FAUX News indeed.

[avaistheone1]

105. Obama put together his own cat food commission.

Obama proposed the chained-CPI. Edward Snowden did not do either of those things.

However, if Snowden's position is the same as it was years ago, he would support Obama on this issue.

[ThePhilosopher04]

7. How do we know this is him????

I don't see anything identifying him ... oh wait, I forgot.

[JackRiddler]

27. Shhh! Two minutes hate is on.

[JackRiddler]

37. Also, how do we know this is "him"

DU is one of many Internet spaces with routine displays of impairment in understanding sarcasm or nuance and at times an incredibly dogged literal mindedness. For example, when I see these weekly and twice-weekly high-level leaks in the NYT that aren't treated as leaks (because usually they're neocon press releases for the next war), I often think those guys should get the kind of treatment their ilk usually proposes for lower-level leakers.

Anyway, anything to distract from the NSA Up Your Ass At All Times Program.

[Recursion]

56. It was leaked (nt)

[maddezmom]

88. He posted his pictures

http://web.archive.org/web/20130612202306/http://arstechnica.com/civis/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=311697
Under this name.

[Whisp]

113. ah ha! thankyou, maddezmom. n/t

[BlueCaliDem]

153. His enablers and supporters will wail, "PHOTOSHOPPED!!!!!"

They're as staunch in their loyalty for him as the Teahadists.

[MADem]

271. OMG....did he teach his girlfriend how to use the timer delay?

That fuzzy soft look, the color treatment, the odd b/w....that looks familiar....

The address of these pics includes the word "libertine." If I were guessing I would say he looks more like a nerd than a libertine, but I will also admit at my age I am NOT the arbiter of what the kids deem "cool" these days.

[ecstatic]

333. He has that vampire look nt

[Cha]

358. Yep, that's him in all his ignorant glory. Thanks maddezmom n/t

[NoMoreWarNow]

417. does anyone else think there are gay undertones there?

or even overtones?

[Tarheel_Dem]

420. BAM! I am officially in LOVE with this thread!

I now await the claims of Snowden FANatics that it was "photoshopped". The mystique of Comrade Snowden is slowing evaporating.

[Zorra]

147. It's posted on the internet. It's gotta be true. nt

[NoOneMan]

158. PRISM

All metadata collected yesterday innocently can be reevaluated tomorrow for evolving identification and threat assessment purposes.

[Autumn]

173. I found a post by him from 2006

TheTrueHOOHA
Ars Scholae Palatinae
Registered: Dec 29, 2001
Posts: 773
Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 12:53 am
quote:


"Buying American" doesn't work because the end result is nothing more than increased cost.

The solution to our problems lie in finding markets for what Americans can do better and cheaper than anybody else. We're too stubborn to stop trying to prop up our 'old world' manufacturing and labor-intensive businesses and start dominating things like biotechnology.


This is the most interesting point I've seen raised in the entire thread so far, especially when you compare it to the vacuous bitching on unions. It highlights the short-sighted economic interest of America as both a country and a people, and I'm genuinely interested in seeing whether we'll find our "next big thing," or if we're already too far gone into the plunder and burn mentality of maximizing our next paycheck at the expense of long term prosperity. Reading this thread, it already feel a little bit like the goose with the golden egg.

Can't we at least build a better battery or something?





radical little bastard

http://arstechnica.com/civis/viewtopic.php?p=6410292#p6410292 scroll to the bottom

[Triana]

8. Well now. I had been indifferent about this guy...

...didn't really care about him - figured HE isn't the issue, the massive surveillance potentially is.

But as for HIM now - well, HE is also an issue. Seems he's a little Libertarian pr*ck.

IntereSTINK find here.

Bookmarked!

[temmer]

110. So you are indifferent about your rights of privacy, right!?

The NSA gets the metadata of your phone calls through Verizon.

The NSA gets the content of your phone calls through Vodafone and British Telecom (Tempora).

They have all means to combine these data.

Not worried?

[Triana]

137. You didn't read what I wrote, did you? n/t

[temmer]

154. I did, but I don't believe you're honest

The surveillance thing was an issue for you, but all of a sudden Snowden is on top of your priority list, just because of these private remarks years ago?

C'mon.

[Zoeisright]

218. So now you're a fucking mind reader?

Try to win the lottery with that brilliant mind, sparky.

[temmer]

232. huh? what are you talking about? nt

[Shivering Jemmy]

329. The point was clear

From my perspective.

[avaistheone1]

9. You “Do the best you can until you know better. Then when you know better, do better.”

― Maya Angelou


Edward Snowden evolved.

[arely staircase]

23. so you think he's backed off his ball-shooting position?

[flamingdem]

32. now that he has his nerd arse in the cross hairs

[arely staircase]

44. he's evolved

nt

[flamingdem]

52. can't wait to hear how he likes the People's Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela

a Libertarian in paradise NOT!

[arely staircase]

63. well there probably is a bit of ball shooting down there

nt

[flamingdem]

68. and it ain't billiards

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2011/12/20111216113657248789.html

Caracas, the capital, has one of the highest murder rates in the world.

[arely staircase]

76. and you gotta figure at least some of those were literally firearms/testicles related

incidents

[flamingdem]

134. I think you're balls-on

literally!

[bluestate10]

321. Has he "evolved" to the point where he would accept changes to Chained CPI instead of

complete elimination of Social Security? You tell me, you seem to be the one that can read his head and heart. I just have an opinion, and that opinion is Snowden is a fucking rightwing poser who is intent on damaging a President he never cared for.

[arely staircase]

325. i think we have a failure to communicate

nt

[Cha]

357. I'll say he better be evolved on that issue so close to home! n/m

[baldguy]

69. I wonder how much cash made that "evolution" happen?

And I wonder where it came from?

[HardTimes99]

163. Hello! Ellsberg was a gung-ho Jarhead for

Vietnam . . . until he wasn't.

[bunnies]

10. Holy Shit.

[KittyWampus]

11. Well, it seems he was gung ho enough to enter the military at one point.

[arely staircase]

46. of course he was in the military slightly longer than i was

which was not at all.

[uponit7771]

13. Snowden is starting to look more and more like an idiot

[nadinbrzezinski]

14. Oh the footnote speaks again

Lemme see 2013-2009... Yup fits the timeline of his personal crisis

Nice try...

Now can we please talk of stellar wind and how the NSA is getting around not spying on Americans...at times using British assets?

[KittyWampus]

15. two separate issue, or so many keep saying. Want to talk about the NSA- start another thread about

[TalkingDog]

25. Stellar Wind? Why yes, I'd love to talk about Stellar Wind, thanks.

Because as I said yesterday, the Snowden Opera is wearing very thin. But as long as people keep ignoring Stellar Wind, nobody will discuss Stellar Wind. And I'm just going to keep posting on these trivial ass threads with comments about Stellar Wind until somebody gets curious and starts doing their damned homework.

[nadinbrzezinski]

30. Well you and I can also talk echellon (the predecessor)

Carnivore and thinthread

We are not talking across each other. Oh Tempora...now that one sent positively shivers down my back.

Oh and the opera is good for fiction writers...

[arely staircase]

51. operation ballshooter is my favorite

nt

[avaistheone1]

45. WHAT the NSA was getting around spying on Americans by using British assets?!!!!!!!!

Could I please have a link to that?

[nadinbrzezinski]

65. One of many

http://www.dw.de/snowden-elusive-germany-queries-britains-tempora-tapping-program/a-16903217

Look up Tempora program, which has NSA attached staff

[avaistheone1]

74. Thank you. ....So the NSA knew it was breaking the law tapping into Americans. But chose to do an

end run around the law, the Constitution. Holy f------ crap!!! No wonder Snowden is being made into the bogey man.

[nadinbrzezinski]

77. Yup, and why the British issued a B letter

(National security) to their papers. It's a cease and desist essentially.

[DCBob]

156. LOL.. blaming the pole dancer!

[Whisp]

16. I found that this morning but it dropped like a rock. :)

Hope yours gets more attention, because it's very interesting stuff and a peek into the mind of Eddie.

Is it a realiable source I was asked? hmmm, I don't know - I would say at least at reliable as Glenn Greenwald.

[BeyondGeography]

24. He has a very high opinion of himself

Which is one way to get blind-sided by life.

[Cha]

355. I'd say Snowden's opinion of himself is bordering on

narcissisim.. if not over the border.

[avaistheone1]

17. Holy crap. With Snowden's position on Social Security

he might have supported Obama's chained-CPI

[Myrina]

19. The best way to get the NSA off your back, especially if you KNOW they're eavesdropping ...

... is to pretend to be a right wing dickwad and 'tell them what they want to hear', in essence: "We thought he was one of us!"

C'mon people. Is he really that much smarter than nearly everyone else here?

[Jarla]

80. You mean people don't always express their true feelings in a public online forum?

Who woulda thunk?!

[Myrina]

103. LOL Right?!?

[bluestate10]

322. Do you truly think the NASA would have let Snowden walk out with secrets if it had been

spying on Snowden? The self delusion is astounding.

[Myrina]

398. I don't think that's what I said. Re-read it, objectively, this time.

The 'jump to conclusions' is also astounding.

[TalkingDog]

20. So the fact that he's a dick makes the information less credible and damaging?

What world do you live in? Cause it sure sounds nice bein' so simple and all.

[leftynyc]

171. No - it doesn't make him less credible

It just makes him a dick (not the hero so many here were claiming he was).

[arely staircase]

22. well that explains his affinity for china and russia

where they probably do that literally.

[Autumn]

26. We know this is really him? How?

[madrchsod]

41. the research on his name is in the first link

[Autumn]

48. I read it but I didn't find out how they know it's him.

[maddezmom]

90. He posted his pictures under this name

http://web.archive.org/web/20130612202306/http://arstechnica.com/civis/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=311697

[Autumn]

95. Can't get to that, it's blocked.

[maddezmom]

96. Not sure what you mean by blocked but it is there

Not just one pic but many.

[Autumn]

130. I can browse through the forum but when I click on the

link you gave me it says Blocked.

[maddezmom]

132. Here is a direct link

http://arstechnica.com/civis/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=311697

The other is from the way back machine

[Autumn]

146. Thanks, got in but the pics don't work.

I click on a pic and get "could not find server2.uploadit.org" Maybe they are overloaded. I'll try later. The posts are from 2006 it will be interesting to see what he looked like then.

[JoeyT]

204. Because we REALLY want it to be him.

And you can't edit posts or anything on a server you have access to. Everyone knows that.

[Autumn]

209. I'ts an interesting site, I found a post from 2006.

From reading what the members are saying I gather the ones on the front page are earlier post. This was the one I found from 2006, scroll to the bottom of the link

http://arstechnica.com/civis/viewtopic.php?p=6410292#p6410292

[Myrina]

399. ^^ This^^

n/t

[Politicalboi]

34. Wait, I thought he was a HERO

Some here even have their avatar that says so.

Snowden the Teabagger is a Dem HERO. OUCH!

[B Calm]

36. and he's a hero to some people here on DU?

[flamingdem]

42. They're now saying lalalalala I can't hear you! with their fingers in their ears

I hope I got through to them with all my Vladimir Putin I vill drain yore laptops posts!

[bluestate10]

323. They have anyone that dare to disagree with them on Ignore, like children that would

chant lalalala.

[nadinbrzezinski]

79. Let's talk stellar wind. Let's talk Tempora

It's been well beyond that footnote since the beginning.

[OnyxCollie]

186. Crazy things happen at DU.

Former Freeperville uberposters become forum hosts, for example.

[jsr]

396. +1984

It's also where foreigners can decide what's best for Americans and tombstone you for disagreeing. LOL.

[Vinnie From Indy]

38. And this effects the NSA spying on all of us how exactly?

Cheers!

[great white snark]

43. And you interjecting a separate issue why?

Jeers!

[uponit7771]

50. Motive of the persons claiming they're spying?

[mike_c]

64. are you disputing the revelations of indiscriminate electronic surveillance of private citizens?

Otherwise, it's hard to see how Snowden's motives are relevant. I mean, if he revealed the NSA surveillance programs solely to make his 90 year old grandma unhappy or to disappoint children dying on a cancer ward, would that change the fact of NSA surveillance? Really?

[uponit7771]

70. Yes, I don't think it's indiscriminate

[nadinbrzezinski]

78. But the evidence is to the contrary

Quite indiscriminate actually. Read into the Tempora program, for a work around of us law for example.

There is a saying on those who chose to be blind. He might be the most despicable human ever lived...yup, even ahead of both hitler and Stalin...it changes nothing of what was released.

[uponit7771]

112. Looking at what's not yours is NOT indiscriminate

[nadinbrzezinski]

115. Well I guess you will enjoy the closing of society

Comrade.

[uponit7771]

119. I'm not a "comrade" no need for ad-hominems. If I look at the side walk you stepped on that's not

....yours and it's not being indiscriminate.

I don't agree with the whole poutrage at DU over the NSA

[nadinbrzezinski]

122. It is not poutrage

And when you realize why you are no longer free...it will be too late.

Have an excellent day in partisan land.

[uponit7771]

123. More ad hominem, we can do withuot it

[nadinbrzezinski]

126. In this case you are being partisan.

And like many other of your friends, I can do without.

*plonk*

[Whisp]

145. imagine that, partisanship on a democratic website.

[mike_c]

85. then I don't think you're paying attention, or your argument is misinformed....

In any event, the evidence is rather clear that your contention is false.

[uponit7771]

108. ad hominem, very typical

[mike_c]

125. lol-- I'm not discrediting the DUer, I said I think he's wrong....

Last edited Wed Jun 26, 2013, 02:29 PM - Edit history (1)

Ad hominem my buttocks. If "the evidence suggests you're incorrect" is an ad hominem fallacy, then there is no basis for discussion about anything, period.

BTW, you're wrong too.

on edit: the irony of being accused of an ad hominem fallacy in THIS particular OP thread just struck me, LOL.

[Democracyinkind]

49. I just read all of it.

He sounds like a really really dumb moron. I seriously doubt the intelligence of anyone who writes such shit.

[Scurrilous]

53. "you fucking retards.."

Yeah, this guy's a hero.

[Tarheel_Dem]

421. Sounds creepily like this guy:

Remember him? I think he and Snowden operate on about the same plain.

[MADem]

54. Ohhhhh KAAAAY.....NOW does my "epilepsy" theory sound a bit more plausible?

How do you go from "Shoot 'em in the BALLS" to "Puppies and kittens and rainbows, information must be FREEEEEEEE" in the space of a few years?

Here's how--you have a brain lesion. Or a tumor. Something that causes a profound PERSONALITY change. And maybe, also, causes adult onset epilepsy...?

What a charmer, with his "you fucking r-words" remarks, and his callousness about social security and the safety nets. Society made it "just fine?" Yeah, sure--if you ignore the HUMAN MISERY. What a fucking tool.

Nasty, heartless little shit...not a Pepsi drinking "kid" who didn't know what his actions would bring, certainly...

[JoePhilly]

75. Its NOT a Tumor!!!

[MADem]

111. Hahahahahaha!!!

Is that from the Pregnant Ahhhnuld movie???

Talk about foreshadowing....that Ahhnuld certainly turned out to be a little babymaker, didn't he?

[JoePhilly]

247. Actually, its Kindergarten Cop.

[MADem]

251. I saw that movie....it was a zillion years ago, I don't remember it too well!

He was a cop undercover as a kindergarten teacher, someone was trying to kill someone else...he looked foolish trying to handle all those perky kids...!

[SunSeeker]

185. LOL! nt

[Cha]

360. No, shock Snowden and Greenwald found each other. A match made

in nauseous hell.

What a charmer, with his "you fucking r-words" remarks, and his callousness about social security and the safety nets. Society made it "just fine?" Yeah, sure--if you ignore the HUMAN MISERY. What a fucking tool.

In his own little special world it did. Dillweed.

[pgr]

57. The guy is nothing more than

An ignorant, naive fool at best. He has ruined his life and probably many others for nothing. Anyone who thinks the government (every government) isn't going to do the same thing with whatever the latest technology is is a fool.

You may not like it, I may not like it but it's reality and it's not going to change, only get worse. We have many more important I uses to deal with in ths country than this nonsense which any thinking person should have realized was happens.

Snowden is going to discover he is only valuable to anyone because of whatever info he can give them then he'll be ground up and spit out into the nearest landfill. Does he really believe any of the USA's enemies care about anything other than how they can do the same thing to us?

The CIA should make him a primary target (if they haven't already) and I consider myself a strong Left leaning Progressive Liberal!

[Eric J in MN]

60. Do you want him to be killed by a CIA drone? NT

NT

[HardTimes99]

192. Um, are you advocating extra-judicial assassination? How 'progressive'

you are (in your own mind maybe)

[baldguy]

59. What a staunch defender of Freedom® and Liberty®.

The only question remaining is: Who's paying him to betray his country now?

[Tarheel_Dem]

61. Comrade Eddie, the new liberal icon is a Paulbot? Who knew?

[SidDithers]

229. No. The Paulbot rantings, and the donations to Ron Paul...

were just a cover, to disguise his True Liberal personality, and throw the NSA snoops off his trail.

Or something.

Sid

[Tarheel_Dem]

273. The many twists and turns to justify who this guy really is, are astounding. The rush to canonize..

this asshole is coming back to haunt some, so now we're being told to "Separate the Message from the Messenger"! Well, that's no longer possible, and I welcome the debate of these new revelations.

[MADem]

299. +1 nt

[Cha]

364. Separate Snowden from the Lies he's told and his hypocrisy.. not gonna happen.

thanks, Tarheel, this thread needed a pretzel pic.

[Tarheel_Dem]

410. I love "transparency", don't you Cha? Even if it ensnares Mr. Snowden, let's get it ALL out there.

[Cha]

440. The GrandHypocriticalHOOHA doesn't want transparency on himself.. just what

his stolen docs show. Oh, and he's showing them to China and Russia too.. just to flaunt he really is an idiot.

[railsback]

66. Still can't fathom how anyone can still say Snowden isn't the issue

and in the same breath say 'he just did what he BELIEVED was the right thing to do'.

Good grief.

[groovedaddy]

87. There is the issue of Snowden AND there's the issue of mass surveillance and data

gathering. Oh yeah, then there's the issue of what seems to be the problem of lax security at NSA. If you haven't read up on Thomas Drake and his take on what's happening now, I recommend doing so.

[railsback]

128. Mass surveillance and data collection NEVER went away

Herring vs U.S. is still in court. PAA/FISA went through Congress. People acting shocked are just looking for excuses to be outraged, yet that only exposes the fact that it never really bothered them at all. And I've read plenty of Drake to know that he's ASSUMING Snowden had the same motives, and feels somewhat vindicated that someone else said the same thing he did over six years ago. So its just a bunch of faux outrage, maybe out of embarrassment.

The only thing Snowden exposed was that security is too lax, which I'm sure is being rectified at this very moment.

[groovedaddy]

462. I wasn't shocked. I'm pissed and have been all along. I know it's

nothing new, other than enhanced technological capability. Yes, Congress can pass laws and the President can sign them (that's how we got into Iraq, isn't it?). That's where the power is. It still violates the spirit of the 4th amendment. The fact that people who hold power want to shroud what they're doing in secrecy while wanting more and more surveillance of what we're doing, is deeply troubling to me.

[leveymg]

71. Ok. He went through a change of perspective. It happens.

Interesting. He went from being what seems a very typical CIA/NSA tech bot to outraged leaker over the course of a couple years. There must have been something that pushed him over a tipping point along the line, and it may well be exactly what he said it was - he became disillusioned by the failure of the Obama Administration to make any real reforms over the Intelligence Community's domestic spying.

[moondust]

109. Dr. Jekyll, meet Mr. Hyde.

[leveymg]

144. I never said he was the most stable, linear personality in gov't service.

But, he must have some off-the-charts talents.

[DCBob]

114. This must be sarcasm.

I hope.

[leveymg]

159. No. It's not at all. I've met some people who are wound very tight in the IC and IT businesses.

They are brilliant people who tend toward extremes of behavior and swings of mood, usually very controlled at the office while acting out in their private lives. Alcoholism, spousal abuse, etc. Snowden is not that unusual in that, except that he is younger than most who have some sort of break and that he acted out directly against his employer.

I'm not saying what he did was inherently pathological, but it is not terribly surprising that people -- particularly younger ones like Snowden and Manning -- are beginning to snap. The USG has done some pretty ghastly things during the past decade. Don't be surprised if there are more who do this.

[DCBob]

161. good grief.. this guy is as phony as a three dollar bill.

what more evidence do you need??

[leveymg]

181. I don't think your "evidence" supports the conclusions you're trying to make

that Snowden has committed acts of Espionage. There is simply not enough conclusive evidence that he's been working with a foreign power or that he did this with the specific, pre-conceived intent to harm the United States. The explanations that he gives are not internally inconsistent with his actions.

On the other hand, I have no doubt that there has been some opportunistic behaviors by China and Russia to exploit Snowden and his leaks. But, that's not the same thing as intent to commit Espionage on his part.

If you want to point to some specific action of his or something more solid than conclusory statements by others, I'm willing to look at the evidence. My mind is not yet made up.

[EC]

72. So who or what changed his mind?

I keep getting an O'Keefe vibe from this guy.

[Eric J in MN]

73. Snowden never said that all information should be leaked.

And so the hypocrisy angle doesn't add up.

His opposition to Social Security isn't surprising, since we knew he was a Ron Paul supporter.

[Whisp]

175. that's right, he's a libertarian: I Gots Mine and Fuck You and Yours.

Heroic qualities.

[forestpath]

83. Nice try. OBAMA wants to cut SS too - as do many other so-called Democrats.

Who knew they had something in common??

And from what I've seen, most people who think Snowden did the right thing don't hero worship him. They just want to expose the government's nonstop spying on them and egregious lying about it.

Just because I oppose ANY cuts to SS doesn't mean I'm going to disagree with what Snowden did because he is a fucking aasshole on SS. So try another tactic because this one won't work.

[randome]

98. The only nonstop government spying that's going on is in this guy's wacky imagination.

You're really going to take his word for everything, huh? Does the word 'evidence' mean nothing?

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]I'm always right. When I'm wrong I admit it.
So then I'm right about being wrong.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[Eric J in MN]

191. The NSA gets all our phone logs. That's not part-time spying.

It's been going on for years.

[randome]

199. I'd say the country is evenly split about whether or not that constitutes 'spying'.

If the NSA can't look at the data without a 2nd warrant, I'm good with it.

If they did not have this data copied from the telecoms, when the NSA had a warrant to look for information, it would need to encompass every single telecom in the country.

A hell of a lot more points of interception, hacking and even telecom employee malfeasance.

Copying the data into a 'black box' keeps it easily accessible for legitimate law enforcement purposes.

Could the NSA be using it for nefarious purposes, going against the law and their internal regulations? Sure.

Someone could be going through my garbage each night, too. Until I have evidence that this is happening, I'm not going to worry about it.

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]I'm always right. When I'm wrong I admit it.
So then I'm right about being wrong.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[Maximumnegro]

291. He wants to cut SS so bad it's taken him

several years to do it. He wants to cut it so bad he spent his first 2 years on health care reform. He wants to cut it so bad he pushed through a stimulus package; he wants to cut it so bad he singlehandedly saved the auto industry; he wants to cut it so bad gay right and gay marriage have achieved gains never before done under any other administration.

I bet Obama stays up at night trying to figure out when he's going to have time cut SS, if only all that other crap wasn't in the way.

Worst. President. Ever.

[cali]

86. and yet he'd posted for years about his concerns about the security state so who the hell

knows at this point what's true and not and what he posted or didn't post.

[randome]

107. Or what he claims or doesn't claim.

Remember, he "saw things".

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]I'm always right. When I'm wrong I admit it.
So then I'm right about being wrong.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[Progressive dog]

89. "Leakers should be shot" Ed Snowden

What a rotten piece of filth.

[randome]

93. More evidence, as if any is needed, that this guy has one or two screws loose.

Really, Eddie?

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]I'm always right. When I'm wrong I admit it.
So then I'm right about being wrong.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[mike_c]

121. or that he's intelligent and sensible enough to change his mind when new information revises...

...his prior misconceptions.

[randome]

129. I would have no problem believing that if he showed any evidence of his claims.

Since none of us knows Snowden personally, his outrageous claims of being able to spy on the President, 'direct access', etc. combined with his vague assertion that he "saw things" and combined with this latest info paint an overall portrait, to me at least, of someone who has been far too long locked away in his own mind.

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]I'm always right. When I'm wrong I admit it.
So then I'm right about being wrong.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[mike_c]

136. he has released documents that clearly support his "claims" and the government does not dispute them

In fact, his "claims" have motivated powerful people, corporations, and agencies to change their testimony before Congress and to revise public statements. His personal hyperbole is of little consequence-- and we can only have our individual opinions about that. I respect that you don't like what you've heard about him personally. I'd recommend you never ask him out for a beer.

But suggesting that his "claims"-- at least the ones of genuine consequence for most Americans-- are unfounded is disingenuous, at best.

[randome]

182. The documents he leaked 'revealed' nothing.

Phone metadata is turned over to the NSA? We already knew that.
The U.S. spies on other countries? We knew that, too.

All his other claims require taking him at his word. If he truly had the access he claimed to have, why didn't he get something to support his allegations?

I won't believe anything he says without evidence. The true turning point for me was when he claimed the NSA had 'direct access' and all the companies involved said it was bullshit.

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]I'm always right. When I'm wrong I admit it.
So then I'm right about being wrong.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[mike_c]

188. I'm afraid much of the world disagrees....

History will judge, I suppose.

[randome]

201. That is true.

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]I'm always right. When I'm wrong I admit it.
So then I'm right about being wrong.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[grasswire]

277. if he "revealed nothing"...

....why are you so obsessed with discrediting him?

[randome]

279. I'm pointing out his unsubstantiated claims.

As here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023101042

I think he's an emotionally isolated man who imagined himself as a hero. I think it's important to stay objective until evidence points one way or the other. So far the lack of evidence regarding Snowden's claims make me believe he is not trustworthy.

The Wikileaks attorneys seem to agree with that assessment. http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023101737

(And I'm a very fast typist so this doesn't cost me much at all.)

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]I'm always right. When I'm wrong I admit it.
So then I'm right about being wrong.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[Whisp]

249. just like on DU?

[DCBob]

94. This pretty much confirms my opinion of this jerk.

Thanks for clearing this up.

[Cali_Democrat]

99. So he hates Social Security and looks down on the mentally challenged

Probably thinks they should all fend for themselves. I hate people who use the term "retards"

He also donated hundreds to Ron Paul.

He's a total libertarian.

[Rex]

100. Of course, he worked for a company with no ethics.

He is a loose hanging dingle berry on the nutsack of infamy. He has made all the wrong choices and it shows.

[SunSeeker]

194. "Loose hanging dingle berry on the nutsack of infamy."

LOL. Stealing it!

[WinkyDink]

101. The better to deflect, no?

[ksoze]

102. The Hero. Will be lots of, "so what" with the worshippers.

[Puzzledtraveller]

124. President Obama once said that marriage was between a man and a woman

[bunnies]

200. Did Obama also say that gay men should have their balls shot off

then come out as a gay man himself? Because if not, your analogy sucks.

[Puzzledtraveller]

206. I don't care what you think about my analogy

and most here are giving Snowden a pass, hoppity.

[bunnies]

208. Of course. Hes a hero.

[Tarheel_Dem]

425. I agree, the poster obviously fell asleep in "analogy" class. That one doesn't work at all.

[bunnies]

426. Shuddap willya?!

That poster doesnt care what we think.

[ljm2002]

127. That is some juicy stuff there, all right...

...there is no denying it. Whether he has evolved politically or not, it gives plenty of ammunition to those who would have him run to ground and jailed for his leaks, and it undercuts those -- particularly Democrats / liberals / leftists -- who have expressed admiration for him personally.

Which does not change the substance of the matter at all. As many of us have argued, his motivations are one thing; the issue of NSA spying is independent of that issue.

[nadinbrzezinski]

140. The mistake they keep making

Is that most of us, if not all, have not made it about Snowden...but the Constitution.

We have posted news stories of the drama, but so have they. We have also posted the programs he's exposed, which they chose to whistle in that large cemetery.

[ljm2002]

152. I will say, in all fairness...

...that the Snowden saga is compelling theater in its own right. I get the fascination with it, and am myself fascinated and wanting to know where he is today etc.

But you are right, those who oppose his actions have used this interest to try and make it all about him. Worse, they have attempted to smear Glenn Greenwald and accuse him of illegal activity in pursuing his role as an investigative journalist. It's one thing when random people on the Internet make such accusations; seeing "real" "journalists" make the same insinuations in public is literally sickening to me.

Also it was clear from the get-go that he most probably had libertarian leanings, so this chat stuff, while indeed juicy, hardly changes the story, except possibly for those few who made him an object of hero worship. I am willing also to admit there are some (not on DU, I don't think) who support him precisely because he is poking his finger into the eye of the Obama administration. But again, so what? The issue is what it is, his motivations are immaterial to the merits of it.

So I'd agree with you: we are interested in the drama, just as those who take the opposite position on the matter. The difference is, we also try to focus on the issues he has raised. But from the other side, regarding the issues, we hear crickets -- or as you note, whistling past the graveyard.

[bluestate10]

326. Again, the NSA doesn't tap your phones or email unless you have continuously shown up

in the wrong places. And if you are tapped, it's now done after a warrant is obtained to permit the tapping.

[woo me with science]

402. Like a peaceful Occupy protest? nt

[kenny blankenship]

131. If he said "Vietnam was a noble cause!" or "women shouldn't be allowed to vote"

that would have absolutely no bearing on the subversion of the Constitution by the government. Whether Ed Snowden is for marriage rights for same sex couples or against is likewise utterly irrelevant to the issue of the government violating the 4th amendment rights of every citizen.

You're really covering yourself in shit doing this. But follow your bliss.

[nadinbrzezinski]

135. I wonder if he will get the reference to the power of myth

Well done Sir

[The Link]

133. Perhaps he has evolved?

It does happen you know.

[frazzled]

143. Well, given that he donated to Ron Paul twice in 2012

maybe not.

[nadinbrzezinski]

162. I don't care if he donated to the nazi party

And ate kittens for breakfast.

Can we talk of Tempora?

[frazzled]

169. The discussion is about "evolving"

Stick to the subject. And puhleeze, don't pull the Nazi card, it's so so embarrassing.

[nadinbrzezinski]

176. Can we talk thinthread, Tempora, stellar wind?

Of course not...whistle past that graveyard...good bye

[Whisp]

214. go talk amongst yourselves.

You have lots of room to make a new thread on another one of your 'wind projects.'

You are trying to hi-jack this one and make demands of what we should be talking about here.

[kentuck]

141. This is an interesting comment:

< TheTrueHOOHA> scandal, yes
< User19> is it unethical to report on the government's intrigue?
< TheTrueHOOHA> VIOLATING NATIONAL SECURITY? no
< User19> meh.
< User19> national security.
< TheTrueHOOHA> Um, YEEEEEEEEEEEES.
< TheTrueHOOHA> that shit is classified for a reason
< TheTrueHOOHA> it's not because "oh we hope our citizens don't find out"
< TheTrueHOOHA> it's because "this shit won't work if iran knows what we're doing."
=========


If this is indeed Edward Snowden? It sounds like it could be him.

[nineteen50]

148. and here I thought that he

exposed the federal government for spying on Americans and private citizens of other nations.

[CakeGrrl]

150. Whatta guy.

Keep him in Russia. Or trade him for the ring.

[flamingdem]

172. +1

git the ring!

[okaawhatever]

205. Tradde him for the ring. ROFL. nt

[caseymoz]

151. People change.

[Cali_Democrat]

157. I wonder if he still hates social security and refers to people as retards. n/t

[avaistheone1]

165. Well

Obama does.

[Cha]

365. Lie much.

[avaistheone1]

366. That is your expertise dear.

[Bluenorthwest]

203. It is hypocritical to claim that a person who said X in 2011 should be expected to feel the

same in 2013 on a day on which we are congratulating the President for his part in ending DOMA in 2013 while in 2011 he was still defending DOMA and rambling about Sanctity and God when asked about the civil rights of gay people. Either people change or they don't. Either we are all stuck in 2011 or we are not. Which is it?
I'm rather certain you feel Obama should get all the credit in the world for DOMA ending, although the fight was decades long and his support less than two years old.
Snowden is probably an ahole, he worked for the security apparatus. Ellsberg was a military type as well, until he saw fit to change.
I don't expect anyone attracted to that sort of work to be anything other than an objectionable dingus. Has no bearing on the information we learn from his actions. None at all.

[avaistheone1]

272. The hypocrisy stinks to high heaven.

Excellent examples of Obama and Ellsberg BTW.

[caseymoz]

354. Well, Obama doesn't deserve much credit.

True he stopped prosecuting the case, but it went forward anyway.

But there is one person who should be given more credit for DOMA, but won't be: Justice Antony Kennedy. He's the one who made the final decision.

About people changing on a topic, and about the unlikely person doing something good, there's an example for you.

[NoOneMan]

164. Sometimes they don't, and sometimes that doesn't matter

I, again, give a damn about him. Its far more important if this domestic spying is real or not.

But sometimes people can be of two minds at the same time. They can be assholes with an agenda that provides an ulterior motive for a "good" action (and they convince themselves thereafter that "good" action has no ulterior motive). It doesn't really matter in any case.

We have two very distinct stories here: what is going on with the NSA and what this guy is all about

[caseymoz]

356. Actually, my answer was careless.

Because I swore I wouldn't post on starker topics on the happy day that DOMA ended, I made short work. Yes, people do change, but it's nothing you count on.

But that's all irrelevant. It doesn't matter why he did it, unless people are trying guess the next move in his dastardly scheme. I somehow don't think Snowden's exposure of the NSA's wholesale destruction of the 4th Amendment had anything to do with trying to undermine Social Security.

It's absurd when I say it like that, but what are people attacking him trying to make. I mean, for comparison, does it really matter why Justice Antony Kennedy voted to end DOMA? No. I don't see anyone bringing up his questionable decisions to undermine the decision today.

The reason why he did it has no bearing on the morality of his exposure of the NSA's criminal activity.

[Whisp]

177. sure they do. From nerdy jerkoff to treasonist treachery. n/t

[ucrdem]

224. Every Libertarian wingnut has a treasonous criminal inside them.

They just need to unlock their potential.

[flamingdem]

227. no worries, he'll be reformed in Venezuela's Libertarian Retraining Camps!

viva socialismo

[ucrdem]

231. Mambo therapy

[flamingdem]

258. arrribaa!

and now that the party is done it's time for your retraining Libartarian perro!

quieres un cracker?

[ucrdem]

302. awww..

A boy and his papagayo, lol. Sweet pic. Sad though. Hugo looks like a junior scout. Hasta siempre comandante . . .

[ucrdem]

304. nt

Last edited Thu Jun 27, 2013, 12:02 AM - Edit history (1)

On second thought, not really relevant to this discussion.

[flamingdem]

362. dang what was it!

not relevant is good .. was it chavez related

[caseymoz]

361. Hardly. I dont' think he's near Venezueala

. . . or Ecuador. I hate to burst your bubble, but I think he's in the last place our government expects, and I think he's going to be well-treated, and with a brand-spanking new passport and identity. He's in the world's equivalent of the witness protection program, with our country being the world's equivalent of criminal organization.

I think nobody's going to tell us where he is, and the more the US asks, the more it's only going to be embarrassed.

You see, the rest of the world, including our allies, are really pissed off that the NSA was spying on their citizens. The things they've said about it have not been kind.

[link:http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/06/23/1218102/-US-NSA-Accused-of-Criminal-Privacy-Violations-in-Dozens-of-Nations-Snowden-Blowback|http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/06/23/1218102/-US-NSA-Accused-of-Criminal-Privacy-Violations-in-Dozens-of-Nations-Snowden-Blowback
]

I think it's likely they regard Snowden as a hero, or at least, they see he's done them a favor. In return, they are not going to turn them over to us, they're not going to tell us where he is. They now agree that the US is an Orwellian nightmare.

You watch how fast the Obama Administration and the entire US government stops talking about him. It's not going to be like Julian Assange. Your not going to hear Senators about about how we're going to have him killed or brought back to be tried for treason. They are going to shut up and try to forget this ever happened.

And we so screwed because of the way the NSA program has pissed off the world. You just watch what that does to the Internet architecture and to our economy.

[caseymoz]

359. What he did was good.

Like Anthony Kennedy voting to end DOMA, it doesn't matter why Snowden did it, unless you're trying to say exposing the NSA and the Administration's treason against the 4th Amendment was all part of Snowden's wicked plan to end Social Security, and you're trying to figure out what his next move will be. As far as I know, nothing like that is being discussed. So it's irrelevant.

Even if he didn't change, what he did was still good. Even Stalin and Chairman Mao had days where they did something good. I mean Stalin had days where he'd actually stop somebody's execution or order people released from the Gulag. Unlike Stalin, Snowden's NSA leak has now defined his life.

Exposing the NSA's criminal activity has the same result if he did it or if Elizabeth Warren did. It doesn't matter what he was like before.

And since he's defined his life by this, I'd rather be with him than anybody who spouts on about punishing him and calling him treasonous. I think it's shameful. When did you throw away your morality for exceptionalism and nationalism?

[flamingdem]

363. someone was on here saying even if a million people die

it was good he did it.. you have to pick a cut off there.

I don't think it was worth it, the discussion could happen with other methods

[caseymoz]

368. You mean to say

The NSA's surveillance was saving people's lives? Sorry, I don't believe that for a microsecond, and I don't believe they were doing it to save people's lives. That's a cover story.

Do you know who originated PRISM and other surveillance programs, since you think it's so good that we're being spied on? Dick "The Dick" Cheney. You think he did it to save lives? Since evil people can never do good things, if we're to believe the proposition behind this thread, how can you think Cheney's program was any good?

No, I think the Bush administration took advantage of Bush's negligence on 9/11 to put surveillance programs in place meant to spy on us, and incidentally on terrorists. I believe it was probably already used against the Occupy Movement, since Homeland Security responded so quickly and coordinated the crackdown in every city.

However, because the NSA spied on many other countries with this program, the fallout to the US will have economic consequences as the rest of the world changes its posture against us. Something that liberals like myself might have easily told the Obama and Bush Administrations and the NSA. Now, if a schmuck like me could foresee that problem, why couldn't the geniuses in the Obama and Bush Administration and the NSA see it?

By the way, Snowden only worked as a contractor for three months, and they seem to have entrusted him with very damaging information. That's not encouraging about how well these programs were run.

[flamingdem]

369. Check out the Vanity Fair article I posted, try to get past the title about Snowden's world tour

there are some insights there about the use of the NSA that run counter to what you might think is always the case.

I also hate Bush and Cheney, we agree on that. I wish there was something solid about Occupy useage

[caseymoz]

373. Sorry, I found little of substance in that article.

And a lot ad hominum attacks on Snowden, especially in the first five paragraphs. The writer concentrates on attacking Snowden and avoids the main point: that the surveillance wasn't aimed principally at governments it was aimed at private citizens in different countries. It also doesn't appear that it was principally aimed at the Chinese, but he concentrates on that.

He brings up World War II breaking of Japanese codes and then Cold War incidents like they have any bearing on the 21st century, then he has as his source the Rand Corporation (nothing conservative and libertarian about that source). This wouldn't be so bad if the information were in some way connected to the civilian side surveillance.

Intelligence might be necessary, but in my opinion we should have never allowed the CIA and the NSA to continue after the Cold War. The techniques and let's say, the cut-throat approach honed during that time should have never been carried on. I think that was a terrible error. Same goes for NATO and our even more bloated Military-Industrial Complex. And I thought that was an error at the time. Of course they'd find trouble to justify their existence. Putting our troops in other countries just keeps the NSA and CIA employed, purportedly to chase terrorism. Actually, the 99 percent are targets.

[wtmusic]

220. +1

[ucrdem]

226. He'll have thirty years to change

if he's lucky.

[JI7]

275. just last year he donated to Ron Paul

[caseymoz]

371. I answered a bit quick

I wanted to defer to the end of DOMA and not post on any distracting topics. However, I didn't want to let this thread go.

Well, there is a possibility that he changed. However, that isn't even relevant, because it doesn't matter why did it. He did the same thing that any liberal progressive with his balls would have done. Evil people sometimes can't help but do good things, they either f*ck up or they do them for evil purposes.

However, I doubt strongly that he exposed the NSA to either undercut Social Security, to get Ron or Rand Paul elected in 2016, or to be a bigger jerk on the Internet. The only reason why bringing up his past antics could be relevant is if we're trying to figure out the rest of Snowden's dastardly plan. At least that's the only reason I could think of.

I feel I owe him a debt.

[Renew Deal]

179. Order the drone strikes!

[flamingdem]

189. why bother

Snowden will probably either

A. drink himself to death on vodka in Russia
B. die from exposure to socialism in the Bolivarian Republic of Venzuela VIVA CHAVEZ VIVA MADURO

[ucrdem]

190. Reactionary wingnut Libertarian Obama-hater and all-round RW nutjob. Neat.

Another made-for-DU hero, like Manning, whose only expressed motive was to give Hillary Clinton a heart attack.

But did anyone listen when we tried to tell you? Nooooooooooooooooooooooo.


K'n'R. Good find BG, thanks!

[Aerows]

196. Is he trolling

As part of the NSA or another security agency? Because that is what they do.

[randome]

211. I kind of doubt a Systems Administrator would be doing 'spy stuff'.

I'm wondering if Snowden didn't secretly wish he was a spy and couldn't accept the idea that he would never be one.

Although, in fairness I suppose we don't know if this relay chat is real or made up.

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]I'm always right. When I'm wrong I admit it.
So then I'm right about being wrong.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[Aerows]

244. We don't

and trolling is pretty much trolling no matter which side does it, and I have no doubt that both do.

[matt819]

213. Don't you ever tire of this?

Can we have one final post about Snowden?

Snowden is a dick.

Done.

What Snowden revealed, however, is what we should be discussing.

[nadinbrzezinski]

219. That *is* the point

That way we don't talk of Tempora, thinthread and the rest.

It's a propaganda technique. They will keep at it...not realizing we are wiser to this. Same shit, different decade, was done by the bushies.

[matt819]

236. But posts like the OP simply perpetuating the propaganda, in the wrong place

What's particularly despairing is that this propaganda is being perpetuated here on DU, and some of it is from long-time DUers a) who should know better and b) are allowing some bizarre sense of patriotism to cloud their judgment on the message.

On a fictional note, I'm reading Jeffery Deaver's latest, The Kill Room. The novel addresses the question of targeting American citizens for assassination and the use of mined data to track targets as well as "good guys." True, this is a novel, but seeing these issues in black and white is more than a little chilling.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

215. Why is it so difficult for some people to think outside a straight line?

[ucrdem]

217. Your cartoon explains everything, thanks.

Yes this is satire.

[kenny blankenship]

285. Why is Gallagher ranked just one step below Augusto Pinochet on the bastardy scale?

I understand that the man was rather harsh in his dealings with melons, and he was very very unfunny - but, seriously, next to Pinochet?

[SidDithers]

221. DU rec...nt

Sid

[we can do it]

228. Sounds like a hypocritical jerk

[jmowreader]

230. Which would lend credence to the notion he's being blackmailed

That he can't seem to find anyone willing to take him goes along with that too.

I think Venezuela is going to decide they like oil money better than harboring one troublemaker with no unique talents. Lots of people know how to be Windows sysadmins, and most aren't on Uncle Sam's shitlist.

[yurbud]

233. so...this means the info he leaked ISN'T TRUE? If not, this deserve a "so what."

[Galraedia]

243. Lets just send the little shit to Somalia and be done with it.

Between his exaggerations, false statements, and leaks on U.S. foreign surveillance to non-allied nations, he's making it impossible to address the real issues and privacy concerns that people have on these programs.

[backscatter712]

246. He sounds just like me.

I used to be a libertarian, and had black-and-white thinking about a bunch of issues.

Then I grew up.

And it looks like Snowden did some growing up too.

[tinrobot]

252. Looks like he had a change of heart... good for him.

n/t

[Dawson Leery]

262. What are his real motives for revealing so much information?

[randome]

265. After interviewing him, the Wikileaks attorneys have said they won't represent him.

My guess is they saw through the bullshit and found Snowden to be a little off kilter. I think he has lived too long in isolation and couldn't come to grips with the idea that he wasn't that important to the NSA. So he made himself important.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023101737

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]I'm always right. When I'm wrong I admit it.
So then I'm right about being wrong.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[Dawson Leery]

270. Interesting.

[LeftInTX]

269. Can anyone take what anyone posts on anonymous internet forums seriously?

People will say anything even if they don't mean it.

I'm not a Snowden supporter. This makes for good entertainment, but it doesn't provide much of a window into his mind. Anyone can say anything. Just look at the @#!*% comments at the bottom of any news article.

[randome]

276. I agree.

The real story is that the Wikileaks attorneys say they won't represent him. I'm surprised this thread has not received more attention.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023101737

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]I'm always right. When I'm wrong I admit it.
So then I'm right about being wrong.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[Cha]

367. Except he posted his pics. I don't just say just "anything".. I mean what I say and I know my

cyberbuddies do, too.

I think it shows quite an ugly pic into his mind. I know he's been hatin' on Pres Obama from the get go. About PBO cutting the military budget of all things. And, his Libertarian assholeness about Social Security.

Snowden donated to Ron Paul in 2012.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3102896

[JTFrog]

404. This was interesting:

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/06/nsa-leaker-ed-snowdens-life-on-ars-technica/

NSA leaker Ed Snowden’s life on Ars Technica
Snowden was TheTrueHOOHA, anime fan, gamer; he opined on government, too.

There are many signs TheTrueHOOHA is Snowden, some of them already noted by Buzzfeed. Posts made by that username indicate the user is male and the same age as Snowden (22 in 2006), has the same educational background (no high school degree), and has worked for the government in an IT capacity. TheTrueHOOHA mentions his old workplace, Ryuhana Press. He mentions being in Geneva in 2007, a time when the Swiss embassy has confirmed he was an attaché with the United States Mission to the UN in that city. Finally, there are photos of a young Edward Snowden posted in an Ars forum back in 2006.

Snowden's last post on Ars was in May 2012. His posts spanned many topics: from online anonymity, to the government, to the NSA. TheTrueHOOHA also talked about things a lot of other folks like to chat about in Ars forums: he talked about gaming, about anime, about his sex life.

[Cha]

431. Mahalo, JTFrog Big HypocriteHOOHA n/m

[Douglas Carpenter]

284. now that we know this - can the NSA get back to its job? I for one am grateful that records of all

Last edited Wed Jun 26, 2013, 06:09 PM - Edit history (1)

my electronic communications - who and when I called come and who and when someone called me are being kept in a safe place. I'm am grateful that the NSA is keeping records of all my internet activity. Is anyone here so arrogant that they think government wouldn't be doing this if it wasn't for our own good?

[randome]

287. The NSA saw you type that.

They told me they were laughing when you kept hitting the 'h' key by mistake.

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]I'm always right. When I'm wrong I admit it.
So then I'm right about being wrong.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[uhnope]

286. Seems more and more like a loon

he thinks they can send the "triads" after him, that they're going to murder him, he says he could listen to any conversation or read any email in real time (wrong), he's cozying up to dictatorships.

[randome]

288. He's scared now, I think.

Now that the Wikileaks attorneys have declined to represent him, he has nowhere to go. Putin can do nothing and still come out smelling like a rose because he didn't cave in to the U.S.

Eventually, in a short time, I think, Snowden will get tired of sleeping in chairs and eating breakfast from a vending machine and he'll be glad to come home.

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]I'm always right. When I'm wrong I admit it.
So then I'm right about being wrong.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[MisterP]

290. soooooo they're saying he is/was too much of an establishment Dem?

[avaistheone1]

294. The real hypocrisy is at the top. For example Obama previously campaigned against gay marriage.

And TODAY you would think he invented gay marriage.

Oh and one of his predecessors...BILL CLINTON HAILS COURT FOR STRIKING DOWN DEFENSE OF MARRIAGE ACT...

...that he signed into law!

[kenny blankenship]

298. Yep, they are true artists in their chosen medium.

[one_voice]

301. In the balls...

he says? Wow..imagine if someone took him up on that suggestion. Sounds painful..

[Scurrilous]

306. K & R

[Number23]

309. Well Surprise, Surprise!!

K&R

[Bonobo]

310. If I WERE to read through this entire thread...

Would anyone be able to enlighten me as to why IT MAKES ONE FUCKING BIT OF DIFFERENCE WHAT SNOWDEN SAYS OR BELIEVES?

Honestly, I think you must all be fucking nuts to be so "into this" kind of thing.

[Summer Hathaway]

372. IT MAKES A BIG FUCKING DIFFERENCE because

he was an unknown nobody a scant few weeks ago, he made very serious allegations about the over-reach of the gov't with respect to citizens' personal information, he failed to prove his claims, he stole confidential documents and disclosed them and/or their content to the Chinese, he flew to Moscow and is still there ...

And in light of all of the above, IT SHOULDN'T MAKE ONE FUCKING BIT OF DIFFERENCE WHAT HE SAYS OR BELIEVES???

Oy.

[mhatrw]

414. Attack the messenger!!!!!!!!!!!!

It's all you have left.

[Summer Hathaway]

424. All I have left?

What on earth are you babbling about?

The sainted 'messenger' in this case is a self-proclaimed thief who is sharing confidential info with the Chinese (and who knows who else?), and has yet to prove the allegations he's made about a massive abuse of power by the NSA.

There is no need for anyone to 'attack' him, or discredit him, or 'smear' him - he's doing a bang-up job of discrediting himself by way of his own actions.

[mhatrw]

439. If he is making false accusations, why are his disclosures a problem? n/t

[Summer Hathaway]

443. Are you serious?

When he was in Greatest American Hero mode here on DU, he claimed that there was massive abuse of power within the NSA - to the point where someone in his position could easily access the personal info of anyone - including the president.

THAT was the claim that sent everyone into an all hail the great hero! tizzy, because he'd 'exposed' this great injustice.

The problem was, and still is, that he has yet to even come close to proving that claim. THAT was the false accusation - except, of course, to those who are simply willing to "take his word for it" without any proof.

As we now know, he has disclosed confidential documents (or their content) to the Chinese - which doesn't exactly fit his "I only wanted to let the American people know what the NSA is/was doing" song and dance - and THAT is the disclosure that is a problem.

Apples and oranges.

[farmbo]

324. Jeeze... He's just another Ryandian, Obama-hating a**hole

That's what's driving Snowden...not some lofty desire to uphold democratic principles. He hates America under Obama. It's not the Ayn Rand Libertarian utopia he so desires.

Can we quit glorifying him as a 'whistle-blower' now?

[Th1onein]

331. THIS IS NOT ABOUT SNOWDEN. PLEASE STOP CHANGING THE SUBJECT.

This is about the leviathan surveillance state. It's about our own government spying on our every communication. Please stop trying to change the subject.

[Whisp]

334. The people who fell all over themselves calling him a Hero

before they knew Anything about the guy, are the ones that made it about Snowden.

Now that some actual facts have dribbled in, you want to change the subject? Sorry, that gate is opened.

Feel free to make your own OP of The Surveillance State but showing who Snowden really is isn't off subject and it's a bit arrogant to suggest this shouldn't be talked about.

[Th1onein]

336. Making it about Snowden is a distraction. THIS IS ABOUT THE SURVEILLANCE STATE.

Do you even care about that?

[Whisp]

343. Give it up. You lost your hero. n/t

[Th1onein]

351. Yeah, that's what I thought. You don't care about the surveillance state. WOW.

I don't think that's gonna work out well for ya.

[Union Scribe]

345. I hear far more of his detractors claiming he's a hero to people

than I have seen people actually say he's a hero.

[Whisp]

347. That is true, now. I guess you missed Opening Night. n/t

[Union Scribe]

348. I haven't missed much, actually.

And mostly what I see are people so obsessed with personality that they insist others must be as well. Not everything is personal. Not everything is motivated by hate for or loyalty to people.

[Tarheel_Dem]

430. You bought the tee shirt didn't you? I'm sorry.

"THIS IS NOT ABOUT SNOWDEN"

[flamingdem]

460. I'd buy that in a Hong Kong minute!

[Kolesar]

448. "LEVIATHAN"

No less
Ha ha

[Th1onein]

461. Yes, haha. But those are not my words. They are Thomas Drake's.

Read about him. You might learn something.

[Cha]

335. So fucking clever.. Didn't like PBO's Defense Cuts.. sounds like the problem is Snowden not PBO

Livid about the across-the-board defense cuts that were planned under Obama, Snowden acidly joked that "aybe we could just outsource our defense needs to india."

Fuck Leaker Snowden and his libertarian cavalier shit on my Social Securtiy and everyone else's. He's the "Bullshit".

Doesn't like the New Deal?.. fucking asshole.

"fucking retards"? Ohh, St Leaker Snowden used the "R" word.

"these people should be shot in the balls".. And, that's why he's running folks.. doesn't want that karma Blowin' on him.

[ucrdem]

339. And five minutes of CNN will assure any doubters that it is, indeed, about Snowden.

Or they'd like it to be. Key VRA provisions struck down? a minute, maybe two. Snowboy in Moscow? Two hours plus.

[Cha]

342. Oh yeah, St Snowden is sucking the air

right out of everything that's been accomplished. And, the horror that was SCOTUS striking down Voting Rights Act Section 4.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/25/voting-rights-act-supreme-court_n_3429810.html

cnn the teabagger station.

[ucrdem]

346. All tea all the time, lol

And good luck finding a public place that doesn't have CNN, FOX or both running 24/7

[ram2008]

352. So Snowden used to hold the same views that President Obama holds now?

Who cares? Snowden and his views are irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. The issue at hand is the massive national security/spying state and its gross abuse of power and privacy. Snowden helped bring it to light. Case closed.

[Cha]

370. Snowden was "livid" at PBO for cutting the Military Budget and refered to

"Social Security as Bullshit."

Reading comprhension is a wonderful thing.

As much as Snowden fans want to keep the subject away from this hypocritical lying jerk.. it ain't gonna happen.

He probably doesn't think leakers should be "shot in the balls" anymore since that's an issue so close to home.

Donated to Ron Paul in 2012 so he's still got the Libertarian Bullshit thing goin' on.

[nadinbrzezinski]

409. I hate to point this to you

But you'll have to find another psy ops tool...this one is well past it's expiration date.

[ram2008]

412. I dont care what his views are

Why do you? What does it matter? As he's said he he is neither a hero or a traitor

What matters is the message. And I'm not going to be hyprocite just because we have a democratic administration. What the government is doing is wrong and indefensible. Get your knees off Obama's carpet.

[Cha]

442. THe GrandHypocritalHOOHA's Message is BULLSHIT.. dropping his BULLSHIT

IN CHINA and RUSSIA. Fucking Idiot.

[ram2008]

445. And? He doesn't want want to get Bradley Manning'd

Do you agree with what the NSA is doing and think PRISM should continue and be expanded?

[Cha]

446. Snowden is a Chickenshit Coward who's giving secrets to China and Russia.

[ram2008]

450. Way to ignore the question.

[Cha]

452. Snowden's a stupid stupid jerk.. And, he hasn't done anything worthy.

[ram2008]

453. You sound like a freeper...

Unable to have an intelligent conversation, resorting to name calling, and ignoring the issue at hand.

My question is do you approve of the NSA's PRISM program and do you believe it should be continued and expanded? Yes or No. Do you approve of Obama's domestic spying programs?

[Cha]

454. "you sound like a freeper"

[ram2008]

455. Unbelieveable, you still can't answer the question

Have a good day .

[Tarheel_Dem]

463. Any more discredited polls you want to tout?

[Summer Hathaway]

374. Snowden used to hold the same views

that President Obama holds now?

You must be tokin' some primo shit.

"The issue at hand is the massive national security/spying state and its gross abuse of power and privacy. Snowden helped bring it to light."

What Snowden has brought to light thus far is (a) what was already known, and (b) allegations about a "gross abuse of power" that he has yet to produce one shred of evidence to support.

Case closed? More like "mind closed".

[sigmasix]

386. summer sheds sunlight on the truth!

Thanks for this spot-on desription of the snowden sillyness

[Quantess]

383. I'm pretty upset that this nitwit was given so much acccess to everyone's personal info

Imagine how many other nitwits are still working, collecting data on you and me and other taxpayers, and getting paid with taxpayers' money.

[randome]

389. Where do you get the idea Snowden has personal info?

He wasn't even able to show us the President's email although he claimed he personally could spy on him.

Snowden was a Systems Administrator, not an Intelligence Analyst. He never had access to personal info else he would have obtained something to prove his claims.

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]I'm always right. When I'm wrong I admit it.
So then I'm right about being wrong.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[Quantess]

390. I got the idea based on what he said. He said he could spy on anybody.

He's not just some kook who listens to Alex Jones. He is a fugitive, a wanted man, and the US government seems to be taking him seriously.

[randome]

392. Snowden has said a lot of things.

And offered little evidence to support what he says.

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]I'm always right. When I'm wrong I admit it.
So then I'm right about being wrong.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[Quantess]

393. I see. So, You are one of the people who thinks there is no spying going on.

The other popular argument among apologists is that yes, of course DUH! nothing is private on the internet, never has been, and there is no such thing as privacy.

[randome]

394. Without evidence to show that the NSA is breaking all the laws and regulations on the books...

...about this, no, I do not believe the NSA is engaged in spying on all Americans, hoovering up the Internet on a daily basis and all the other things Snowden claims.

And yes, you're right, the claim about no privacy existing on the Internet is a little strained, IMO.

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]I'm always right. When I'm wrong I admit it.
So then I'm right about being wrong.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[Kolesar]

403. Doin' the troll stomp

Thanks. I'm fighting a cold and all this makes my head spin.

[dtom67]

387. he also said...

If you want to cover up a whistle blower scandal, have your sychophantic partisan shills smear the whistleblower.

...

I think he said something about the NSA, too.......

[eridani]

391. Is this supposed to have something to do with whether or not NSA spying on Americans--

--is a good idea or not?

[ellie]

397. Oh, so he is a loon then!

Funny, his stance on Social Security makes me more enraged than his spying or whatever the hell he did. Fucker.

[brentspeak]

400. So what you're saying is...

...that several years ago, Snowden shared the same views concerning leakers and Social Security which Obama holds today.

[mhatrw]

413. OHMIGOD, some guy who is besides the point posted some dumb shit on the internet

5 years ago!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[MjolnirTime]

427. His fanbase will conveniently ignore all of this.

[baldguy]

428. Imagine what the 2013 Snowdon fans would say about 2009 Snowden?

[Galraedia]

432. Why does the Snowden fanbase sound so much like the cult of Ron Paul?

Seriously, it's like a whole shit load of Paulbots just invaded DU.

[Tarheel_Dem]

434. This thread is HELL-A huge & like clockwork, all the "THIS IS NOT ABOUT SNOWDEN" toadies...

showed up to talk about....Guess who? Comrade Snowden. And then they proceeded to lecture & whine about what we "should be talking about" instead. I love this thread!

[flamingdem]

436. This is not about Snowden! Here are his modeling pictures!!!! HAUT

Are These Edward Snowden’s Modeling Pictures?

he original thread, which appears to have been uploaded by Snowden himself under the alias TheTrueHOOHA, was accompanied by the following caption: "So I got invited to model for this guy (potentially NSFW) last week, and I just now got the proofs back from him. He shoots mostly guys, and he's got some... 'questionable' people interested in his work, so I was actually a little worried he might, you know, try to pull my pants off and choke me to death with them, but he turned out to be legit and is a pretty damn good model photographer. It's only my third shoot, so be gentle."

The pictures embody true early-’00s suburban fashion—’N Sync–esque spiky hair, a beaded necklace, and leather bracelets included. It's almost as if A.J. McLean's brother was on the lookout for a solo career.

The photos earned a multitude of forum responses, which ranged from “Not bad at all. Add a little muscle tone, and I don't see why you couldn't get into modeling more seriously,” to “You should do something about the bags under your eyes. Who does your makeup?”

Of course Snowden, who is now reportedly holed up in Moscow, could not be reached for comment.



Snowden as a little leaker

[Tarheel_Dem]

438. That is priceless!

[flamingdem]

441. I demand my own variety show or I'll release Snowden's info bomb!

Give in to my demands immediately plz xox, Lindsay

[Cha]

444. OMGosh! The GrandHypocriticalHOOHA in diapers!

A budding Leaker!

[MADem]

449. +++++++1! nt

[flamingdem]

451. Little Leaker: I'm going to drop a bomb if you try to get me

and it won't be information if ya get my drift.

peee yew!

[flamingdem]

457. bump to keep alive