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Thu Jun 27, 2013, 01:00 AM

The Errors of Edward Snowden and His Global Hypocrisy Tour - Vanity Fair

http://www.vanityfair.com/online/eichenwald/2013/06/errors-edward-snowden-global-hypocrisy-tour

** see link for much more

Updated to actual title

-- snip

Take the actions involving Tsinghua University. There are many reasons the N.S.A. would be interested in communications and computer activities at this Beijing-based school. For example, beginning in the past decade or so, university programs on arms control have played an important role in the Chinese government’s efforts to administer export controls on sensitive items. (For those wishing to know more, this is well detailed in a book published by the Rand Corporation called Chasing the Dragon: Assessing China’s System of Export Controls for WMD-Related Goods and Technologies.) Now, perhaps the most prominent university program in China on arms control is at—you guessed it—Tsinghua University. So, do you think there might be a reason why the N.S.A. would want to know about any communications on arms control that might take place between the Chinese government and Tsinghua?

The importance of China in global arms-control issues is hard to understate, even in American negotiations with Russia over proposals on nuclear-arms reduction. As Richard Weitz, a senior fellow and director of the Center for Political-Military Affairs at Hudson Institute, wrote last year:

China’s continued absence from strategic nuclear arms control negotiations is already impeding U.S.-Russian progress in this area. Beijing has traditionally resisted participating in formal nuclear arms control agreements. . . . Whereas U.S. officials want the next major nuclear arms reduction agreement to include only Russia and the United States, Russian negotiators want China and other nuclear weapons states to participate. In particular, Russian representatives insist they cannot reduce their major holdings of nonstrategic, or tactical, nuclear weapons without considering China’s growing military potential. Involving China in certain U.S.-Russian arms control processes could facilitate progress between Moscow and Washington in these areas and yield ancillary benefits for related issues.

Is this the reason for the N.S.A.’s activities at Tsinghua? My intel friend held it out as a good, educated guess, but then made a broader point. Contrary to the depictions in movies, the N.S.A. does not engage in foreign surveillance as part of some James Bond–ian plot to take over the world. Decisions are based on the national-security needs of the United States. Actions at Tsinghua are not arbitrary; there is a national-security reason they are being done, whether about arms-control policies in China, something else altogether, or both.

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Reply The Errors of Edward Snowden and His Global Hypocrisy Tour - Vanity Fair (Original post)
flamingdem Jun 2013 OP
MADem Jun 2013 #1
PSPS Jun 2013 #2
flamingdem Jun 2013 #3
MNBrewer Jun 2013 #5
HangOnKids Jun 2013 #7
flamingdem Jun 2013 #9
MNBrewer Jun 2013 #11
HangOnKids Jun 2013 #15
KittyWampus Jun 2013 #17
MNBrewer Jun 2013 #19
flamingdem Jun 2013 #8
HangOnKids Jun 2013 #20
flamingdem Jun 2013 #22
HangOnKids Jun 2013 #26
Romulus Quirinus Jun 2013 #62
SidDithers Jun 2013 #100
flamingdem Jun 2013 #103
PSPS Jun 2013 #12
flamingdem Jun 2013 #14
MNBrewer Jun 2013 #16
KittyWampus Jun 2013 #18
MNBrewer Jun 2013 #21
MNBrewer Jun 2013 #23
flamingdem Jun 2013 #24
MNBrewer Jun 2013 #25
flamingdem Jun 2013 #27
MNBrewer Jun 2013 #28
flamingdem Jun 2013 #29
HangOnKids Jun 2013 #31
HangOnKids Jun 2013 #32
pnwmom Jun 2013 #40
Cha Jun 2013 #48
NoMoreWarNow Jun 2013 #77
MH1 Jun 2013 #88
Cha Jun 2013 #94
NoMoreWarNow Jun 2013 #99
PSPS Jun 2013 #50
pnwmom Jun 2013 #55
nadinbrzezinski Jun 2013 #56
arely staircase Jun 2013 #63
snooper2 Jun 2013 #70
Taverner Jun 2013 #4
flamingdem Jun 2013 #6
Taverner Jun 2013 #54
Cali_Democrat Jun 2013 #10
flamingdem Jun 2013 #13
railsback Jun 2013 #30
flamingdem Jun 2013 #34
railsback Jun 2013 #37
HangOnKids Jun 2013 #33
flamingdem Jun 2013 #35
HangOnKids Jun 2013 #36
flamingdem Jun 2013 #38
HangOnKids Jun 2013 #39
Bobbie Jo Jun 2013 #91
pnwmom Jun 2013 #41
JDPriestly Jun 2013 #42
flamingdem Jun 2013 #43
JDPriestly Jun 2013 #44
flamingdem Jun 2013 #45
frylock Jun 2013 #59
flamingdem Jun 2013 #71
Scurrilous Jun 2013 #76
frylock Jun 2013 #78
flamingdem Jun 2013 #79
frylock Jun 2013 #80
flamingdem Jun 2013 #81
frylock Jun 2013 #83
flamingdem Jun 2013 #84
frylock Jun 2013 #86
flamingdem Jun 2013 #90
FarCenter Jun 2013 #67
JDPriestly Jun 2013 #92
creeksneakers2 Jun 2013 #95
JDPriestly Jun 2013 #98
Number23 Jun 2013 #46
Scurrilous Jun 2013 #60
flamingdem Jun 2013 #73
JI7 Jun 2013 #96
flamingdem Jun 2013 #97
Cha Jun 2013 #47
TalkingDog Jun 2013 #49
NoMoreWarNow Jun 2013 #68
BeyondGeography Jun 2013 #51
Waiting For Everyman Jun 2013 #52
LeftInTX Jun 2013 #53
ohheckyeah Jun 2013 #58
nadinbrzezinski Jun 2013 #57
haele Jun 2013 #66
nadinbrzezinski Jun 2013 #72
haele Jun 2013 #75
nadinbrzezinski Jun 2013 #87
flamingdem Jun 2013 #89
arely staircase Jun 2013 #61
NoMoreWarNow Jun 2013 #64
arely staircase Jun 2013 #69
NoMoreWarNow Jun 2013 #82
arely staircase Jun 2013 #85
NoMoreWarNow Jun 2013 #93
zappaman Jun 2013 #65
ProSense Jun 2013 #74
DCBob Jun 2013 #101
JackN415 Jun 2013 #102

Response to flamingdem (Original post)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 01:08 AM

1. Good article--I remember some of that stuff VERY clearly....

N.S.A. surveillance has been beneficial repeatedly in American foreign policy. Although most instances remain secret, we already know that the N.S.A. listened to Soviet pilots during the 1983 shooting down of a South Korean airliner; used intercepted diplomatic messages to track a 1986 Berlin disco bombing to Libya; and used the cell phones’ SIM cards to track terrorist suspects after the 9/11 attacks.

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Response to flamingdem (Original post)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 01:11 AM

2. LOL. China is bad. Therefore, we must allow our own government to spy on us. Gotcha.

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Response to PSPS (Reply #2)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 01:13 AM

3. How 'bout nsa is not all bad, and we will lose out on critical intelligence

because some nerd butt doesn't know reality from idealism?

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Response to flamingdem (Reply #3)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 01:21 AM

5. NSA not all bad, therefore we must let it do whatever is required, no matter how awful

Because some nerd butt doesn't know reality from idealism?

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Response to MNBrewer (Reply #5)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 01:24 AM

7. Holy Shit Is That Person Still Using Nerd Butt?

 

Jesus.

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Response to HangOnKids (Reply #7)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 01:25 AM

9. I was considering changing to nerd arse nt

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Response to HangOnKids (Reply #7)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 01:27 AM

11. It's the popular new term at the "cool kids table" in the Jr. High School lunch room, I guess.

LOL, OMG... He's such a nerd butt.

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Response to MNBrewer (Reply #11)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 01:32 AM

15. They must say it in between flipping their hair.

 

Big secret....PSSSST.... the cool kids are NOT cool at all. The rest of the school knows it, they don't.

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Response to MNBrewer (Reply #11)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 01:36 AM

17. No, I think the cool kids are the ones ragging on members in the Barack Obama Group.

 

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Response to KittyWampus (Reply #17)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 01:37 AM

19. oh, my sides!!!

stop, it hurts

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Response to MNBrewer (Reply #5)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 01:25 AM

8. I hope that there's a lot of examination and rethinking about surveillance

but I'm not as paranoid about it as many others. My issues are voting rights, citizens united, climate change.

And in this case we can see intelligence can actually help with arms control. This is a factor that many here don't understand.

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Response to flamingdem (Reply #8)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 01:37 AM

20. Many Here Understand Plenty

 

But keep on busting with the "high school" jargon and condescension. It is HILARIOUS!

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Response to HangOnKids (Reply #20)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 01:39 AM

22. Oh so you're into sarcasm that's not easy to decipher

Got it.

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Response to flamingdem (Reply #22)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 01:45 AM

26. Gee Your Word Salad Is Mighty Tasty

 

Doesn't make a lick of sense but it is finger licking good!

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Response to HangOnKids (Reply #26)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 01:58 PM

62. It goes well with blue links and copy pasta.

It's good to have fiber to go along with all those carbs, eh?

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Response to HangOnKids (Reply #20)

Fri Jun 28, 2013, 07:35 AM

100. Oh Binka...

What's really hilarious is watching a twice-banned zombie ragging on another DUer.



Sid

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Response to SidDithers (Reply #100)

Fri Jun 28, 2013, 10:06 AM

103. Not just one zombie, I think he/she split into 3

aaaaaaaah

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Response to flamingdem (Reply #3)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 01:27 AM

12. Yes, that "critical intelligence" in my email and phone calls. Gotcha.

I'll have to add that to my list of apologies:

1. This is nothing new
2. I have nothing to hide
3. What are you, a freeper?
4. But Obama is better than Christie/Romney/Bush/Hitler
5. Greenwald/Flaherty/Gillum/Apuzzo/Braun is a hack/gay/doesn't live here
6. We have red light cameras, so this is no big deal
7. Corporations have my data anyway
8. At least Obama is trying
9. This is just the media trying to take Obama down
10. It's a misunderstanding/you are confused
11. You're a racist
12. Nobody cares about this anyway / "unfounded fears"
13. I don't like Snowden, therefore we must disregard all of this
14. My private life contains "critical intelligence," so it must be monitored

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Response to PSPS (Reply #12)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 01:30 AM

14. wtf? Just read the article, it nuanced, your list isn't!! nt

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Response to flamingdem (Reply #14)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 01:35 AM

16. Nuance...a fancy French word for "grab your ankles"

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Response to MNBrewer (Reply #16)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 01:36 AM

18. so you didn't read the article. too bad, you might have learned something

 

or gained some perspective.

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Response to KittyWampus (Reply #18)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 01:38 AM

21. Whose perspective, is the question...

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Response to KittyWampus (Reply #18)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 01:40 AM

23. How's this for fucking "nuance"

"My tolerance for Edward Snowden has run out."

I stopped reading there.

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Response to MNBrewer (Reply #23)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 01:42 AM

24. Snowdinistas are few and far between

at this late date

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Response to flamingdem (Reply #24)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 01:43 AM

25. Love your appropriation of lingo

goes well with the arm band and party banners.

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Response to MNBrewer (Reply #25)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 01:45 AM

27. You mean for Democratic Party Election wins?

I make sure to do the lingo at those when I've downed a few

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Response to flamingdem (Reply #27)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 01:48 AM

28. Partei, Partei, über Alles.

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Response to MNBrewer (Reply #28)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 01:50 AM

29. MNBrewer seems to be an ally of Hangonkids

funny thing

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Response to flamingdem (Reply #29)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 01:54 AM

31. And KittyWampus and Whisp and Cha and sheshe2 seem to be your BFFs

 

So exactly what are you saying? Oh and I have to add Cali Democrat to your list of Heathers. Where would you be without he/she. Sorry I was remiss with that omission.

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Response to MNBrewer (Reply #28)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 01:56 AM

32. I Think We Must Stop Our "Secret Club" They Are On To Us! n/t

 

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Response to PSPS (Reply #2)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 02:16 AM

40. That's not the point. Snowden has shot himself in the foot by taking the focus off the information

he had on internal US surveillance, and putting the focus on damaging, possibly treasonous, revelations of US spying on other countries.

In his narcissistic megalomania, he crossed a very serious line.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #40)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 03:50 AM

48. As long as he hasn't shot himself in the balls like he said leakers should be shot

in 2009. Prolly evolved on that issue since they're so close to home now.

Ed Snowden: Leakers “should be shot in the balls,” and "cut this Social Security bullshit

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023102239

With the pics to prove it..

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3102896

Dead on point, pmwmom..


..by taking the focus off the information he had on internal US surveillance, and putting the focus on damaging, possibly treasonous, revelations of US spying on other countries.

In his narcissistic megalomania, he crossed a very serious line.

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Response to Cha (Reply #48)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 02:48 PM

77. hard to know-- maybe that was a game he was playing to get in with the right people

 

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Response to NoMoreWarNow (Reply #77)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 03:06 PM

88. ...

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Response to NoMoreWarNow (Reply #77)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 06:47 PM

94. No, it's not hard at all.

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Response to Cha (Reply #94)

Fri Jun 28, 2013, 07:29 AM

99. he just had a convenient change of heart?

 

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #40)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 09:36 AM

50. Yes, prior to this, nobody knew there even was a NSA.

Well, except for anyone who was paying attention that is. But, by all means, let's just concentrate on how "bad" Snowden is and how he is a "narcissistic megalomaniac" who has "crossed a very serious line." Yes, that's it. Thanks for enlightening me. Why, I feel better already! Gee, I'm just dandy with my government spying on me! Thanks!

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Response to PSPS (Reply #50)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 12:55 PM

55. I'm not saying you should be happy IF NSA is doing what Greenwald/Snowden claim in the US.

But you should be unhappy for what Snowden has been doing and threatening to do with regard to US relations with other countries. Sabotaging delicate negotiations with Russia and China is a bad thing. Threatening to release the names of current Valerie Plames is a bad thing -- as we seemed to understand during the Bush years, but have forgotten in the interim.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #55)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 12:58 PM

56. I guess the government admitting to the programs aim

 

Inwards is just their invention...

Jesus...on a crutch

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Response to PSPS (Reply #2)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 01:59 PM

63. no, therefore snowden shouldn't committ espionage on their behalf

nt

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Response to PSPS (Reply #2)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 02:11 PM

70. your government isn't spying on you

 

I think the level of misinformed opinions has reached a breaking point on DU

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Response to flamingdem (Original post)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 01:18 AM

4. We are heading into a Cold War with China the same way we did with the USSR

 

With the USSR, we made them so paranoid, we almost had WWIII

Since now much of our fleet is in the Pacific, surrounding China, they are starting to get a little paranoid too


Don't make other countries paranoid

It's not good for business

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Response to Taverner (Reply #4)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 01:23 AM

6. Wouldn't it make some sense to have an intelligence edge to smooth things out?

I think that intelligence can help more than hurt at least in some of the examples described.

It seems like China really didn't know that this was happening, hard to know if that's true, but if so that would have been damaging to the establishment of trust.

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Response to flamingdem (Reply #6)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 11:20 AM

54. If we did, it should all be public

 

I don't think Governments, if they truly are of the people, should have secrets

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Response to flamingdem (Original post)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 01:26 AM

10. GREAT article!

 

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Response to Cali_Democrat (Reply #10)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 01:29 AM

13. I think some of us intuited this

Paranoia can make everything look negative but institution can be sources of progress, of course.

It's back to what Ed Schultz said, am I going with Obama's assessment of this or Snowden's..

Snowden and Greenwald are negative angle and in their own way pushing fear, the same fear they criticize.

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Response to flamingdem (Reply #13)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 01:51 AM

30. How astutely said

 

"Snowden and Greenwald are negative angle and in their own way pushing fear, the same fear they criticize."

Its like when they say 'stop attacking Greenwald personally' while personally attacking those questioning his authenticity.

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Response to railsback (Reply #30)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 02:02 AM

34. Yes, very personal attacks


now there's a whole twitter feed devoted to it

watch the aclu fall for the drama ..

ACLU Massachusetts ‏@ACLU_Mass 25 Jun
Creepy: Glenn Greenwald's partner's laptop was stolen from their Rio home. Nothing else was taken. http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/06/25/greenwald-snowden-s-files-are-out-there-if-anything-happens-to-him.html

here's a twitter hashtag for upset greenwaldistas

#ggscandals

example of the humor:

umair haque ‏@umairh 2h
Glenn Greenwald was mean to a puppy once. #ggscandals

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Response to flamingdem (Reply #34)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 02:07 AM

37. Yeah, the hypocrisy is stunning.

 

.. and pretty hard to stomach.

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Response to flamingdem (Reply #13)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 02:01 AM

33. Snowden and Greenwald are negative angle?

 

Please, I like reading, but when I come across a sentence that just makes no sense I want some clarification. They are negative angle? Help me out here, I don't get this.

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Response to HangOnKids (Reply #33)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 02:02 AM

35. waiting for your twin to chime in

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Response to flamingdem (Reply #35)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 02:07 AM

36. Waiting for your Heathers!

 

Are they letting you down?

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Response to HangOnKids (Reply #36)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 02:09 AM

38. I've determined you are very odd


There's never a very good justification for this kind of childish posting.

Why don't you write a post of your own with your thoughts.

Otherwise you're just playing irritant and you and your twin might end up tombstoned

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Response to flamingdem (Reply #38)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 02:11 AM

39. Posting In The Mirror Again?

 

I don't recommend that, it is harsh and makes ones skin look bad.

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Response to HangOnKids (Reply #33)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 03:16 PM

91. Sure you do

You're just into petty public humiliation.

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Response to flamingdem (Original post)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 02:19 AM

41. Thank you for an excellent article full of the historical background and context

that all too many otherwise intelligent people seem to lack completely.

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Response to flamingdem (Original post)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 03:04 AM

42. So, if US cyber-spying on China is OK because it is in the interest of the US,

is cyber-spying on us by China also OK if it is in China's interest?

Or are the Chinese subject to rules that don't apply to us?

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Response to JDPriestly (Reply #42)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 03:05 AM

43. The Chinese hacked next gen weaponry blueprints somehow

They don't follow rules. It looks like the US isn't quite as nefarious.

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Response to flamingdem (Reply #43)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 03:26 AM

44. I don't know. How do you know?

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Response to JDPriestly (Reply #44)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 03:29 AM

45. I know because I've been alive a loong time

and trust what I know that I know

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Response to flamingdem (Reply #45)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 01:41 PM

59. in other words, you don't know fuckall..

you just place trust in your government, full stop.

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Response to frylock (Reply #59)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 02:13 PM

71. Jury Results

At Thu Jun 27, 2013, 11:01 AM you sent an alert on the following post:

in other words, you don't know fuckall..
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3111781

REASON FOR ALERT:

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate. (See <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=aboutus#communitystandards" target="_blank">Community Standards</a>.)

YOUR COMMENTS:

.

JURY RESULTS

A randomly-selected Jury of DU members completed their review of this alert at Thu Jun 27, 2013, 11:10 AM, and voted 3-3 to LEAVE IT ALONE.

Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT and said: Enough with the gratuitous nastiness around this place. If frylock can't debate without being a dick, he should be shown the door by MIRT.
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT and said: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT and said: Close one. Not really that bad, almost voted to leave it alone, but it is ruder than is necessary. The person that the poster is responding to is not being rude, and this response is very rude.
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given

Thank you.

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Response to flamingdem (Reply #71)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 02:35 PM

76. 3 -3?

That's closer than usual.

And despite what frylock says, I believe you really do know fuckall.

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Response to flamingdem (Reply #71)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 02:50 PM

78. gosh, what a relief

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Response to frylock (Reply #78)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 02:52 PM

79. quote: If frylock can't debate without being a dick, he should be shown the door by MIRT.

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Response to flamingdem (Reply #79)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 02:54 PM

80. well, better luck tomorrow, eh?

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Response to frylock (Reply #80)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 02:55 PM

81. I like the smell of baked woodchuck in the

mańana

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Response to flamingdem (Reply #81)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 03:00 PM

83. lol yeah, i've been here a minute..

and got no plans of going anywhere. but it's nice to have a dream, isn't it?

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Response to frylock (Reply #83)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 03:04 PM

84. truth is

we'll probably be on the same side of some issue sooner rather than later

for now you're a bit too passionate on this one .. that's why I shared that with you .. I am not the only one who would find it over the top.

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Response to flamingdem (Reply #84)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 03:05 PM

86. you're probably right.

I've clashed with many people here over a particular issue only to discover that we're aligned on another.

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Response to frylock (Reply #86)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 03:14 PM

90. I had to endure a meeting last night

of my Democratic Club. They are very liberal usually compared to most clubs but wow I was the only one not tripping about civil liberties and excited about Snowden's revelations. So I kept my mouth shut!

I learned something about people who are very focused in on civil liberties. That's never been my focus but I can see it's almost a religion, interestingly it was the over 60 set and the under 35 group who were most agitated about nsa and related.

However it did turn to attacking Obama very quickly, something I find dangerous considering the upcoming midterms.

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Response to JDPriestly (Reply #42)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 02:02 PM

67. By tacit agreement, all countries spy but no country admits it.

 

The effect is sort of like an "open skies" program in cyberspace, so far as intergovernmental relations are concerned. And it is useful to all governments in terms of keeping tabs on non-governmental adversaries.

And all countries get to complain about the actions of others to their constituents. This allows them to enhance internal data integrity and privacy programs.

Snowden is messing with the program.

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Response to FarCenter (Reply #67)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 03:22 PM

92. That is juvenile. And it completely disregards rights of individuals and

companies that aren't in on the spy conspiracy.

Liberty, justice? Spying of the sort you describe that includes spying on normal people and private businesses is inconsistent with the concepts that hold our country together. And forget about free enterprise if trade secrets are scooped up by surveillance nets.

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Response to JDPriestly (Reply #42)

Fri Jun 28, 2013, 01:04 AM

95. China spying on the U.S.

is OK with the Chinese but not with us. The U.S. spying on China is OK with us but not the Chinese. So it does work out even.

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Response to creeksneakers2 (Reply #95)

Fri Jun 28, 2013, 01:47 AM

98. But it doesn't work out for the people, whether Chinese or American.

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Response to flamingdem (Original post)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 03:30 AM

46. K&R I love Vanity Fair

Which brings us back to Snowden’s global hypocrisy tour. I think nothing has more thoroughly damaged Snowden’s “whistle-blower” persona than his bizarre—and, I would say, cowardly—decision to rely on some of the countries with the greatest history of oppression to help keep him out of the Americans’ hands. (Usually, when people engage in civil disobedience for a cause—which Snowden seems to want people to believe he is doing—they accept the punishment that will accompany their decision. Snowden, instead, has acted like a spy, fleeing to countries with deeply strained relationships with the United States.


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Response to Number23 (Reply #46)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 01:54 PM

60. @#$% Vanity Fair Fascists.

"Global hyprocrisy tour?" Shouldn't that be hero tour?

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Response to Scurrilous (Reply #60)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 02:18 PM

73. but.. but.. a half billion Chinese women can't be wrong!



http://www.wnd.com/markets/news/read/24430043/snowden_is_%27handsome%27_hero_in_china

Snowden Is 'Handsome' Hero in China

By: ABC News: Top Stories

NSA leaker Edward Snowden has reached hero status for many Chinese internet users. His Chinese fans on Sina Weibo, China’s version of Twitter, have posted Snowden’s old modelling photos and “Snowden Handsome” is the first result to come back when his last name is entered...

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Response to flamingdem (Reply #73)

Fri Jun 28, 2013, 01:12 AM

96. ugh, these are the same sources which said Mark Zuckerberg was handsome and his Chinese American

wife was ugly. remember, china was where they thought that one girl during the olympics who sang a song was not pretty enough to be shown and they got someone who had more of a "western" look .

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Response to JI7 (Reply #96)

Fri Jun 28, 2013, 01:25 AM

97. I do remember that

Twitter is terrible for catty remarks (with racial undertone if not overt) as we saw with Rachel Jeantel this week.

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Response to flamingdem (Original post)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 03:32 AM

47. I just saw that on another site.. Kurt Eichenwald is so over Ed Snowden..

"My tolerance for Edward Snowden has run out."

The former contractor with the National Security Agency who divulged classified secrets about domestic surveillance programs has undertaken what can only be depicted as the global hypocrisy tour. A man outraged by American surveillance and who advocates free expression toodles happily to Hong Kong, a special administrative region of China? Then off to Moscow? Then tries for Ecuador (and, in some accounts, Cuba)?

And along the way, Eddie decided to toss out classified information about foreign-intelligence surveillance by the United States in other countries. For the Chinese, he was quite a spigot of secrets. He revealed documents showing that the N.S.A. had obtained text messages from the Chinese by hacking into some of the country’s telecommunications networks, engaged in computer espionage activities at Tsinghua University, and hacked into systems of Pacnet, an Asian provider of global telecommunications service


"Grand Hypocrisy Tour" is perfect in its succinctness.

thanks flamingdem

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Response to flamingdem (Original post)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 09:33 AM

49. Don't care about the Snowden Opera. I do care about STELLARWIND

But thanks for sharing.

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Response to TalkingDog (Reply #49)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 02:02 PM

68. yes, there do seem to be endless attempts to make the story about Snowden, not the spying

 

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Response to flamingdem (Original post)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 09:44 AM

51. A very well-reasoned demolition of Snowden's absurd presumptuousness

K&R

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Response to flamingdem (Original post)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 09:52 AM

52. Directing us to books by the Rand Corporation!?! Really?

Now there's great sourcing for you. Damn! Yes, let's all sit around in a circle and be schooled now by the Rand Corporation on how surveillance is cool.

And we see drivel here arguning about what to TRUST? Puleeze. Don't even bother to go there again after this -- there isn't even a vague clue of the concept. Clearly.

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Response to flamingdem (Original post)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 10:09 AM

53. Article is worth the read

The parallels between Pearl Harbor and 9/11 are interesting. According to the article we had the info, but it wasn't used properly. I never knew that.

Once cracked, the United States could track Japanese naval-troop movements and even intercepted communications containing plans for the Pearl Harbor attack—information that was not properly used.

Would Snowden have been outraged that the United States was intercepting Japanese data at a time when the countries were not at war? It took years to crack the Purple code—would Snowden think the United States should have waited until after Pearl Harbor to tap into Japanese communication lines, and only then begin the arduous effort to break the code? And if not, then what is his point in turning over these kinds of secrets to the Chinese? All I have to say is, thank God Snowden was not around in 1937, four years before the United States joined the war—Lord knows how many Americans would have died if he had acted with whatever arrogance, or self-righteousness, or narcissism, or pure treasonous beliefs that drove him to his espionage on behalf of the Chinese.

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Response to LeftInTX (Reply #53)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 01:01 PM

58. LOL -

so, the U.S. collects tons of data but doesn't know how the hell to use it properly once it has it and that's supposed to be justification for collecting more data?

Really instills a lot of confidence in the government, eh?

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Response to flamingdem (Original post)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 01:00 PM

57. As I told you before...

 

They spy on us, we spy on them, that's Tuesday.

Can we speak of how this affects citizens of the US who have their civil rights violated...for our own safety of course. That is the question at hand. Not were he's gone.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #57)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 02:01 PM

66. I have very few issues with exposing domestic surveillance.

I do have a lot of issues exposing our foreign surveillance. I did with the Shrub and Valerie Plame (how many people do you think that killed?) and I do with exposing the "spy game" in China and other countries at this time - which will probably also kill people or cause deaths in the future.

That's the issue with the article.

Our soi-naive "hero/whistle-blower" Snowden might be due for an attaboy or two - I won't argue the potential unconstitutionality of Prism and Solarwind and the over-reaches of the corporate wing of the NSA; but he also committed at least three significantly serious honest National Security aw-shits that he does need to take responsibility for.
I don't like the fact he's running from those like a giggling Robin Hood, throwing everything to the wind and sowing chaos in his wake instead of thinking about how to fix or mitigate the current vicious confluence of national security, privacy, and profits.

I hold the same viewpoint when it comes to Cheney and co. I don't care if TPTB are hypocritical corporatists, but I'm not. Everything's not okay just because we do it.

Haele

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Response to haele (Reply #66)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 02:16 PM

72. You know reading foreign press on this has been fascinating

 

Especially since this man has not been interviewed by foreign agents, as far as we can tell

Two possibilities to that...his information on us spying on them is so hum hum, that it is he propaganda value is more valuable.

Or...like we have done for decades, the CIA counterparts have reporters who are spies too.

FYI, vanity fair was (probably still is) tied to CIA operations, with a slew of other elite media.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #72)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 02:35 PM

75. Pretty sure it has links. Vanity Fair always seems to run exposes on the financial or MIC corps

right before investigations for fraud against the government or government interests after audits had already found significant wrong-doing.
Not that it's a bad thing to do that, but it's more like setting that company up in the public sphere right before the government brings the hammer down.
Greenwald himself has plenty of "friends" in the intelligence world who are prefectly happy to feed him leads for their own benefit or to manipulate media viewpoints.

Snowden might not have been interviewed, but from what little passing experiance I've had with such organizations (foriegn and domestic), I'm 95% sure he's already been searched and information taken, no matter how "secure" he think's he's been.
I think BAH pissed some people in the operational side of things off. They do have a reputation for being a bit high-handed and finding ways to make money on contracts in ways that are considered less than ethical. However, I also think Snowden probably got more information than they bargined he would get due to corporate inertia.

That is, unless someone(s) wanted a master reset of their alphabet soup organization and orchestrated this "leak" to get rid of projects (and people) that were too costly and inefficient without going through the process of justifying the cancellation of contracts and potentially slowing the overall money spigot.

Haele

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Response to haele (Reply #75)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 03:06 PM

87. Well it could be a slow hang out

 

but what I am hearing locally is pissed off people regardless of party affiliation. If it was a slow hang out (the way the government has handled this tells me otherwise), it was poorly done.

I mean it is so bad that people may give up on government altogether. I mean all of it, including your local planning board.

But empires do rot from the inside, and this apple is showing how mushy it is any longer.

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Response to haele (Reply #75)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 03:08 PM

89. Reports are that his data has been taken in China

There are multiple reports on that and a new one today. He's not as good as the hackers in China or Russia.

I'm guessing its our very own hacking that allows the US to know that his information has been obtained.

Sure it could be a psyops to make Snowden less of a hero but I tend to think they don't need to do that and that like you say a lot is known and they're doing cleanup.

Interesting theory you have about how Booz might have set him up to justify changes that might save them millions (billions!)

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Response to flamingdem (Original post)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 01:57 PM

61. the damage this traitor has done to this country is stunning.

telling the Chinese how and when and where we are listening in when we are trying to negotiate limits on nuclear arms is incredibly stupid and dangerous.

they can't arrest this guy soon enough.

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Response to arely staircase (Reply #61)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 02:00 PM

64. oh BS-- like they didn't know.

 

IMO, the NSA is causing the damage to this country by erecting this insanely unproductive surveillance state.

Btw, spying on other nations is fair game--par for the course-- but spying on our own citizens is unconstitutional.

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Response to NoMoreWarNow (Reply #64)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 02:08 PM

69. apparantly they didn't know the specific IP addresses, given their glee at finding out

Now they do. And hell let's assume they did. That is not for Mr. Snowden to decide. And will in no way serve him as a defense at his trial. And that trial will happen as it looks like Mr. Snowden's available options are rapidly shrinking. Nobody wants him. the Chinese and the Russians already have what they want. They don't need him anymore.

He is toast.

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Response to arely staircase (Reply #69)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 02:58 PM

82. where does it say he gave out IP addresses?

 

seriously-- that does make a difference.

And I admit it obviously looks bad to give out info like that. I'm not sure why he did it-- maybe as part of a deal to avoid extradition. And it sure doesn't help his defense. Finally, I'm not sure I trust him either. I just don't like the way he has polarized this discussion, so that people here either think he's great or a traitor.

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Response to NoMoreWarNow (Reply #82)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 03:05 PM

85. in his interview with a Chinese newspaper

Edward Snowden’s revelations keep coming. On Friday, the South China Morning Post reported that the former National Security Agency contractor shared details on the IP addresses of the computers in Hong Kong and China that the NSA had hacked over the last four years. The detailed data also reveals “whether an attack on a computer was ongoing or had been completed, along with an amount of additional operational information,” reports the Hong Kong daily. Snowden insisted that he felt comfortable sharing this information because the targets were civilian computers. "I don't know what specific information they were looking for on these machines, only that using technical exploits to gain unauthorized access to civilian machines is a violation of law. It's ethically dubious," Snowden said.

Snowden’s justification seems either naďve or purposefully misleading. As the New York Times points out, the line between the civilian sector and the government is hardly clear-cut in China. While some legal analysts say Snowden may be “digging his own grave,” as one put it, others contend that the leaks could encourage Beijing to prevent the former contractor’s extradition if he agrees to share what he knows. At the very least, the revelations to the Hong Kong paper seem to demonstrate he has plenty of information that Beijing might find interesting. So far though it isn’t clear whether Beijing will get involved, according to a South China Morning Post source. There’s much officials could learn from Snowden. Former CIA chief of staff Jeremy Bash tells ABC News that “if a foreign government learned everything that was in Edward Snowden's brain, they would have a good window into the way we collect signals intelligence.”

Some in Beijing insist Snowden gives China an opportunity that can’t be wasted. On Friday, the Global Times, a Communist Party mouthpiece, called on Beijing to get all the information it can out of Snowden and to treat him well so that others who may have secrets might be encouraged to seek refuge in Hong Kong: "The Chinese government should acquire more solid information from Snowden if he has it, and use it as evidence to negotiate with the U.S."

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2013/06/14/edward_snowden_reveals_details_of_hong_kong_and_china_nsa_hacking.html

here is the original Chinese story:

http://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/article/1260306/edward-snowden-classified-us-data-shows-hong-kong-hacking-targets

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Response to arely staircase (Reply #85)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 05:29 PM

93. Thanks... although I thought you meant IP addresses of US computers

 

the IP addresses of the Chinese computers should be obvious to the Chinese, as well as whether they were under attack. This info would mainly serve to bolster Snowden's credibility to the Chinese. But as I said, it does look bad and obviously the US can prosecute him for this.

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Response to flamingdem (Original post)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 02:00 PM

65. Kick and REC!

Suffice it to say, that's Tuesday, nerd butt.

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Response to flamingdem (Original post)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 02:26 PM

74. I like this part:

The irony of someone purportedly dedicated to privacy and human rights aiding the Chinese government grew even starker while Snowden was in Hong Kong. Last week, Human Rights Watch issued a report condemning a massive surveillance campaign undertaken by the Chinese government in Tibetan villages, which results in political re-education of those who may question the Communist regime and the establishment of partisan security units. “These tactics discriminate against those perceived as potentially disloyal, and restrict their freedom of religion and opinion,” Human Rights Watch wrote.

But hey, that’s just real life, not the Internet privacy that concerns Snowden. And, of course, the level of the Chinese government’s surveillance and control of their citizens’ use of the Internet is almost an art form. Just six months ago, China’s legislative body, the Standing Committee of the National People’s Congress, adopted the “Decision to Strengthen the Protection of Online Information.” The new rules, which Human Rights Watch says “threaten security and privacy of internet users,” require telecommunications providers to collect reams of personal information about customers who sign up for Internet, landline, or cell-phone service. The law also requires for the providers to insure they have the ability to immediately identify the real names of people who post comments under pseudonyms. Guess why? “In the days following the decision,’’ Human Rights Watch reported, “several well-known online activists found that their weibo micro-blogging accounts had been shut down.’’

As for Russia, the crackdown on public activism has intensified in recent months, which, again, has led to Human Rights Watch issuing a report just a few weeks before Snowden landed in Moscow. “The crackdown is threatening civil society,” said Hugh Williamson, Europe and Central Asia director at Human Rights Watch. “The EU has spoken out strongly in recent months, but now is the time to directly call on Russia’s leadership to revise restrictive laws and stop the harassment of independent groups.” Primarily, the Russians are going after hundreds of rights groups and related activist organizations as part of a massive campaign to force them to register as foreign agents. “The authorities are seeking to define ‘political’ so broadly as to make any involvement in public life that is not controlled by the government off-limits,” Williamson said. “They are also trying to tarnish groups with the ‘foreign agents’ label, which in Russia can only mean ‘spy.’”


And what about Ecuador? Why, just two weeks ago, this country that is apparently on Snowden’s list of possible future homes passed new rules that impede free expression. The statute, called the Communications Law, prohibits anyone from disseminating information through the media that might undermine the prestige or credibility of a person or institution (you know, like revealing a government-sponsored surveillance program). The law also places burdens on journalists, making them subject to civil or criminal penalties for publishing information that serves to undermine the security of the state (you know, like revealing a government-sponsored surveillance program).

It's fascinating to watch people cheering these countries because the "stuck it" to the U.S.

Ecuador Says Snowden Asylum Document Unauthorized
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023110603

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Response to flamingdem (Original post)

Fri Jun 28, 2013, 07:38 AM

101. The whole sordid tale reeks of hypocrisy..

Imagine an American seeking political asylum in Russia regarding a government surveillance complaint. Its simply absurd.

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Response to flamingdem (Original post)

Fri Jun 28, 2013, 07:41 AM

102. I smelt this guy Snowden a fake from the very beginning n/t. But didn't realize his stupidity.

 

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