Rachel Jeantel, witness at Zimmerman trial, can't read or write in cursive. Is that a big deal?

[Poll_Blind]

Today I was on Reddit and came across an article about today's developments in the Zimmerman trial.

George Zimmerman Witness Can't Read Letter She 'Wrote' About Shooting:

A teenage friend of Trayvon Martin was forced to admit today in the George Zimmerman murder trial that she did not write a letter that was sent to Martin's mother describing what she allegedly heard on a phone call with Martin moments before he was shot.

In a painfully embarrassing moment, Rachel Jeantel was asked to read the letter out loud in court.

"Are you able to read that at all?" defense attorney Don West asked.

Jeantel, head bowed, eyes averted whispered into the court microphone, "Some but not all. I don't read cursive."

It sent a hush through the packed courtroom.

I found this immediately disturbing and was profoundly sorry that the young lady had to admit such a thing, in open court, and in such a notorious and publicized trial. It made me sad and then angry. And while I was doing what I usually do when I'm angry about something, composing a post in order to inflict it on all of you here at DU, another much simpler thought occurred to me. I walked into the other room where my 11 year old was studying the periodic table -just kidding, he was playing LEGO Lord of the Rings- and asked him if he knew how to read and write cursive and other questions about the teaching of it in school. I also got out a ballpoint pen and a pad and had him read a couple of things I wrote and write a couple of things for me, as well.

Thankfully, he could read and write it but couldn't do the capitals very well- didn't know them all- and although he's moving into 6th grade when school starts up again, he said they only covered cursive in fourth grade but not fifth. I asked him if he hadn't had any writing assignments this year which had to be turned in, in cursive, and he said he hadn't.

Is...this...a...big...deal? Or maybe I should ask, isn't this a big deal?



I realize we live in the digital age and all but I was exploring why I found the whole issue so upsetting. First, for me cursive is the writing style adults use. When learning to write, moving from printed block letter to cursive was a signifier that I was becoming an adult, writing as one.

Is this a universal view or is it just me?

Second, I was surprised to find another more persistent thought bothering me: How can you write a decent love letter if you don't do it in cursive? How can you properly lasso a heart without letters fashioned from dreamy curves and loops? I imagine a love poem printed out in block letters and it strikes me as something out of Flowers for Algernon.

Is this only a big deal to me or is...America "moving on" or something?

PB

[BeeBee]

1. Most kids don't learn cursive anymore.

They learn to print and/or use keyboards. They hardly ever have to write things out by hand.

[Poll_Blind]

3. Are most people okay with that? Do you have any feelings either way? I never liked...

...cursive, for the most part, but it seemed (as I said) appropriate for a couple of things over block writing.

PB

[hlthe2b]

7. I'm NOT ok with this... That means, notes on medical records, historical letters, and all kinds of

important documents will render them simply IGNORANT and useless in these contexts--which are not going to be totally replaced.

[HiPointDem]

17. +1

[CreekDog]

62. Medical records are barely legible anyway and cursive exacerbates that

computerized entry improves this and is more common.

but without that, if one were required to print, the records and orders would be more legible.

[Poll_Blind]

26. +2

PB

[MattBaggins]

126. No -2

How many people can read old English or ancient Latin?

Just the people it matters to. In a hundred years, anthropologists who care about it will be able to read old medical files.

[CreekDog]

27. i haven't used cursive since the 1980's

even working in a hospital with medical records, printing was superior.

as for reading, cursive was harder to read in almost every case because it was often done so sloppily, not because one isn't familiar with it.

physicians need to stop writing in cursive. if i were king of the world --they would.

[hlthe2b]

39. I've worked in the field my entire life... Never have I worked with anyone who didn't use/couldn't

read cursive. Yes, bad writing is an issue that sometimes requires calling out the person and requiring them to either slow down to write in cursive more legibly (and yes, speed of writing is a big benefit of cursive) or require them to write in block print.

Multiple states, multiple hospitals, labs, and agencies--cursive has NOT gone away--even in these days of computerized medical records and online document creation.

To promote this level of ignorance is abysmal, IMO.

[CreekDog]

58. if you have never worked with someone who didn't use cursive

did you stop working 30 years ago?

seriously, i haven't used cursive in my entire adult working life.

and most colleagues my age and younger are the same.

the one place where i saw the most cursive was when i worked a hospital 20 years ago, and that was the most illegible, most unclear writing i've encountered in my entire life. the physicians with poor writing should have printed, it would have been clearer and *safer*.

tell me the advantage of *writing* cursive at work in this day and age?

[hlthe2b]

73. Hardly... and I don't think anywhere I've worked would hire someone...

who couldn't at least read cursive (and write in at least block print).

It would be seriously a dangerous situation.

Your situation may be different, but I am surprised to hear it. However, even if so, please don't try to diminish me or anyone else by suggesting them to be a 30 year retired dinosaur. That is NOT the case and I would not do so to you. I am at the midpoint, not the end of my career.

[CreekDog]

80. your post said you hadn't worked with anyone that didn't "use" cursive

and you mentioned reading it in the same sentence, so "use" seems to have meant writing.

and i haven't found a single time when writing in cursive offered any advantage, in my entire working life (some in a hospital) over printing.

[hlthe2b]

82. "Use" is inclusive of being able to read cursive, is it NOT?

I respect your opinion and will not deride you as you did me, even if I disagree with you. Not being able to at least read in cursive and respond to a note in some form of block hand written lettering is a real problem.

Even with computerized medical records, not all hand-written materials or notes have been permanently replaced.

[CreekDog]

89. i was just pointing out that you in the same sentence you referred to "read" and "use" separately

ok, so you meant "read".

as for saving time? it doesn't save time if you don't know how to use it and typing is way faster than writing cursive, which i basically can't do anymore anyway.

i remember in my first year of college in 1990, my English prof asked us for a list of things about ourselves.

one of mine, even then, was referring to handwriting and i said, "I only PRINT".

[hlthe2b]

91. So you advocate for today's youth to be ignorant of the ability to read any kind of script?

I can appreciate the juncture we are at with computer technology rapidly replacing other forms of communication. But, to render our youth unable to read a note, letter, document written a day ago, a year ago, or even during relevant history is incredibly sad and harmful.

[CreekDog]

93. being able to read script is useful, but most script people will see is poorly written

and somewhat illegible anyway.

the time to learn how to divine the meaning of doctor's orders in bad, bad cursive is not something they should be teaching early in school, when writing, spelling and the like is taught.

[MattBaggins]

128. Can you read and write old English?

[Sancho]

137. Cursive isn't taught in many schools anymore..

most schools started dropping it...so it's your lack of knowledge that's the issue. My wife teaches in a Florida school (35 years!). They use iPads, computers, and printing. No cursive.

http://news.yahoo.com/goodbye-cursive-writing-225300486.html

[hlthe2b]

142. I am very much aware of that as is eveyone on this thread who are arguing at the stupidity of doing

so... Absoutely blatant stupidity.

The Educational Summit titled “Handwriting in the 21st Century” held in Washington, D.C. included the attendance of professors, neuroscientists, teachers and interested citizens. Presenters shared cross-disciplinary handwriting research and attendees voiced their opinions about whether—and how—this skill should be taught. Through presentations and workshops, attendees learned how handwriting is a foundational skill that helps children develop in other areas, such as reading, writing, memory, and critical thinking. Several neuroscientists presented findings ranging from handwriting and occupational therapy to neuroscience research that documents the impact of handwriting on kids’ learning. In a survey at the conclusion of the summit, 85 percent of the attendees believe that handwriting instruction is “very important” in the 21st century. A majority responded that handwriting should be taught from Kindergarten through 5th grade. All of the research presented at the conference indicates that teaching handwriting is beneficial. Although the conference was sponsored by a handwriting curriculum company, the presenters came from a broad range of fields and presented a convincing case. One of the most remarkable findings came from Karin Harman-James at Indiana University. She presented research she conducted using MRI scans of children’s brains. Her research which was conducted in 2012 showed that writing by hand activated parts of the brain associated with language development, while keyboarding did not.
. For anyone interested in learning more about how handwriting and keyboarding produce different changes in the brain many published research articles are available for perusal on the internet. In addition, some neuroscientists have published books which have sections describing how handwriting affects the learning process. Two of these books are; The Hand: How its Use Shapes the Brain, Language and Human Culture, by Dr. Frank R. Wilson. His book describes in detail the pivotal role of hand movements in the developing of thinking and language capacities and in “developing deep feelings of confidence and interest in the world-all-together, the essential prerequisites for the emergence of the capable and caring individual.” Considering the bullying problem and the lack of empathy many teachers are noticing in their students, could it be that learning cursive handwriting has an effect on the area of the brain that develops empathy and tolerance for others? We don’t know…yet.
Another book is, The Brain That Changes Itself, by neuroscientist Norman Doidge. His book discusses the subject of neuroplasticity, how the brain changes and develops neuropathways in relation to habit changes and repeated actions. His research describes how handwriting and keyboarding require different actions and affect the brain in different ways. Dr. Dodge has said, “When a child types or prints, he produces a letter the same way each time. In cursive, however, each letter connects slightly differently to the next, which is more demanding on the part of the brain that converts symbol sequences into motor movements in the hand. Each of these actions creates different neuropathways in the brain,
Much controversy exists regarding the importance of cursive handwriting. Evidence is building that indicates the brain is affected and changed in ways we never realized. Brain research is constantly providing new revelations. As this research is growing and available, changes in curriculum that impact how kids learn and retain knowledge need to be carefully examined and evaluated prior to being implemented. At present most school districts can still decide if they want to teach cursive handwriting. Where does your school district stand? If you think cursive handwriting is important to learn contact your child’s teacher or school administrator and express your concern. Some states are reinstating cursive handwriting into their education curriculum. A white paper summarizing the research presented at this conference is available on the summit website: http://www.hw21summit.com

[Sancho]

144. That's one group, and maybe there is a point...but I've tested many children for readiness,

language, etc. I disagree that cursive is necessary for development. Handwriting didn't exist for most of human history, and even then there are many versions. Foundational learning and all the neurological developments could be just as easily learned other ways that use hand movements. There's growing evidence that tablets (like IPads) are beneficial in many ways for young development. The assumption that handwriting would have to be replaced by keyboarding is premature. Likely keyboarding plus dictation plus a number of input methods will replace handwriting (like smart boards with all sorts of swiping movements). Maybe different than handwriting, but not bad. Like an advanced Montessori exercise.

The connection to bullying and similar things are a complete stretch of the imagination. When testing kids that are multicultural (including countries that teach handwriting and those that don't), I don't see any particular system making a developmental difference as long as they are using their minds and hands in educationally appropriate ways. Using keyboards and handwriting are only a small part of learning language.

You might just as easily argue that all children would benefit from music/art lessons every day of elementary schools (and there is good evidence it would make similar developmental improvements). Certainly for critical and creative thinking cursive is at best irrelevant. Literacy and language are important, but the connection to cursive handwriting per se is very tenuous. That's one reason that cursive may not be the best use of limited time in school. Writing is impacted by technology; just like quills were replaced by pencils that were replaced by pens that were replaced by typewriters, etc. You can expect tomorrow's writing to be multi-media and not just black on white paper. New skills will be necessary to "write' in such an environment. Cursive won't likely be one of those skills! Practicing "handwriting" vs. "other eye-hand" skills to learn literacy seems to be the question, and the world seems to be moving rapidly away from paper and pencil.

Maybe you want to compare cursive to Chinese (a completely different system)? Are all the educated Chinese developmentally and neurologically depressed? Mandarin symbols are certainly not cursive. Is that handwriting or drawing?

The schools in Miami are bilingual/trilingual. Most kids speak in Spanish/Creole or whatever their original language is while they learn English as a "second" language that they use in class. Our witness in the Zimmerman trial is likely low SES and clearly struggled to decode the "English" that was used in the courtroom and deposition. I understood her well, and she was repeating over and over phrases that the lawyers (and likely jury) didn't follow.

[WinkyDink]

43. Do you print your name TWICE on documents that ask you to "Sign here" and "Print here"?

[CreekDog]

52. so you're saying signatures are supposed to be legible and readable as one's legal name?

[BeeBee]

36. Forgive me, but I'm not sure I understand what you're saying.

Are you saying that notes on historical documents will not be understood because younger generations won't be able to read the writing?

[hlthe2b]

41. Exactly.

among other important documents...

[Mariana]

84. Anyone who is interested in reading those documents

can learn to read (and to write) cursive as an adult. It's not difficult to do and the workbooks are inexpensive and easy to get. Some of the books have even been made specifically for adults.

Also, some parents will teach their children to do it at home, even if it isn't taught in school. It's never going to become a completely lost art. There will always be some people around who can read and write cursive.

[hlthe2b]

88. Of course, but to encourage todays' youth to be ignorant of the notes written by parents/grandparent

or deeds, legal documents notations and all the historical papers that come across ones' normal life, not to mention the ability to go to a museum or exhibit and actually read documents.

Good gawd.

[joeglow3]

86. Then why don't we revive all dead languages?

[hlthe2b]

87. You are implying cursive writing is dead language?

Tell that to the English literate among the world's seven billion people.

[joeglow3]

110. Ummm, no.

Your logic would apply to dead languages.

[hlthe2b]

111. at least...

I am capable of applying some logic.

[joeglow3]

114. Great logic

Our schools are struggling, so lets teach then two different ways to write English because we are worried they won't be able to read a fifty year old document.

[hlthe2b]

122. No, let's let our kids be ignorant. Great logic.

The key to success is not to be able to read, write nor converse in complete sentences either. With your lead, our educational standards will be right there with the best third world nations.

[joeglow3]

138. I don't think u know what ignorant means

Why don't we also teach calligraphy.

[hlthe2b]

143. Educate YOURSELF

The Educational Summit titled “Handwriting in the 21st Century” held in Washington, D.C. included the attendance of professors, neuroscientists, teachers and interested citizens. Presenters shared cross-disciplinary handwriting research and attendees voiced their opinions about whether—and how—this skill should be taught. Through presentations and workshops, attendees learned how handwriting is a foundational skill that helps children develop in other areas, such as reading, writing, memory, and critical thinking. Several neuroscientists presented findings ranging from handwriting and occupational therapy to neuroscience research that documents the impact of handwriting on kids’ learning. In a survey at the conclusion of the summit, 85 percent of the attendees believe that handwriting instruction is “very important” in the 21st century. A majority responded that handwriting should be taught from Kindergarten through 5th grade. All of the research presented at the conference indicates that teaching handwriting is beneficial. Although the conference was sponsored by a handwriting curriculum company, the presenters came from a broad range of fields and presented a convincing case. One of the most remarkable findings came from Karin Harman-James at Indiana University. She presented research she conducted using MRI scans of children’s brains. Her research which was conducted in 2012 showed that writing by hand activated parts of the brain associated with language development, while keyboarding did not.
. For anyone interested in learning more about how handwriting and keyboarding produce different changes in the brain many published research articles are available for perusal on the internet. In addition, some neuroscientists have published books which have sections describing how handwriting affects the learning process. Two of these books are; The Hand: How its Use Shapes the Brain, Language and Human Culture, by Dr. Frank R. Wilson. His book describes in detail the pivotal role of hand movements in the developing of thinking and language capacities and in “developing deep feelings of confidence and interest in the world-all-together, the essential prerequisites for the emergence of the capable and caring individual.” Considering the bullying problem and the lack of empathy many teachers are noticing in their students, could it be that learning cursive handwriting has an effect on the area of the brain that develops empathy and tolerance for others? We don’t know…yet.
Another book is, The Brain That Changes Itself, by neuroscientist Norman Doidge. His book discusses the subject of neuroplasticity, how the brain changes and develops neuropathways in relation to habit changes and repeated actions. His research describes how handwriting and keyboarding require different actions and affect the brain in different ways. Dr. Dodge has said, “When a child types or prints, he produces a letter the same way each time. In cursive, however, each letter connects slightly differently to the next, which is more demanding on the part of the brain that converts symbol sequences into motor movements in the hand. Each of these actions creates different neuropathways in the brain,
Much controversy exists regarding the importance of cursive handwriting. Evidence is building that indicates the brain is affected and changed in ways we never realized. Brain research is constantly providing new revelations. As this research is growing and available, changes in curriculum that impact how kids learn and retain knowledge need to be carefully examined and evaluated prior to being implemented. At present most school districts can still decide if they want to teach cursive handwriting. Where does your school district stand? If you think cursive handwriting is important to learn contact your child’s teacher or school administrator and express your concern. Some states are reinstating cursive handwriting into their education curriculum. A white paper summarizing the research presented at this conference is available on the summit website: http://www.hw21summit.com

[dem in texas]

135. Cursive is easy to learn

I am old enough to remember learning cursive in school using an ink pin. It only took a few days and little practice. If you have to write much, cursive is so much faster than block printing.

[joeglow3]

139. I agree with the benefit.....20 years ago

I know it can be hard to accept, but times change.

[Ednahilda]

127. You are correct.

Prior to World War II, German schools taught a style of handwriting that is very different than what is taught today. All of my German friends born after 1950 cannot read it and when faced with a letter or other old written document, they ask their parents to read it for them. Needless to say, their parents won't be around forever.

About a decade ago, I bought a reprint of a 19th century German elementary school handwriting book and taught myself to write in this old script for the express purpose of learning to read it. I'm moderately proficient, depending on how neatly the document was written, but I still have some trouble figuring out some of the words. My grandparents and mom are gone, so it makes me sad that some of these written records are lost to me, because I can no longer decipher them.

I know younger people who cannot read cursive at all. Will they feel a sense of loss if they cannot read their grandparents' love letters? The captions on the backs of old photos?

[BeeBee]

30. I don't feel strongly about it one way or the other.

I think printing or keyboarding is better in most cases because it is (usually) easier to read which is important in areas such as prescriptions, doctors' instructions, etc.

Cursive does seem a little more personal, however, for things like letters.

[Poll_Blind]

38. I agree about the utility of printing. It's the lack of being able to read and write in...

...the personal (as you put it) form that script provides that I find kind of sad.

PB

[Pab Sungenis]

63. I learned how to read and write cursive

but outside of a classroom (and most of the time IN the classroom, except when being tested for penmanship) I have NEVER written in cursive. And never will.

The only reason cursive was important was when you had pens that would blot when you picked up the tip. So we needed a way to write a word without picking up the pen.

Technology rendered cursive irrelevant. Now it's going the way of blackletter.

[mike_c]

2. hmmm-- although I could likely read it, I haven't written cursive script...

...since grade school. I don't see it often in my professional life, either.

[PoliticAverse]

11. I learned it as a kid but I've pretty much abandoned it in my writing,

it just doesn't seem to save time and effort in writing and it certainly isn't easier to
read what I've written in cursive.

[dkf]

32. You must sign your name to things. No?

[mike_c]

40. yes-- an illegible cursive scrawl that's unreadable but idiosyncratic....

It's just a bunch of loops and squiggles, bearing little resemblance to actual written language. I make it with muscle memory, and often don't even watch.

That said, just about the only thing I use it on are bank checks. For most else, my handwritten sig is printed (non-cursive) --Mike C.

[dkf]

46. Lol! My signature has gotten worse too.

But not as bad as Jack Lew.

Maybe future kids will pick a drawing to sign with. Lol.

[madinmaryland]

85. Like Jack Loo???

Kind of like a spirograph!!

[dkf]

102. I wonder if he always makes the same number of loopies. Haha.

[PoliticAverse]

4. "Handwriting nears end of line as US schools stop teaching it"

http://azstarnet.com/news/national/handwriting-nears-end-of-line-as-us-schools-stop-teaching/article_2424801f-10ff-5cdd-bb76-7cfb553127d2.html

[hlthe2b]

12. Funny, how I was expected to learn both to write in cursive AND to touch type...

Why is it no longer possible and mandatory to teach both? Because of stupid mandatory teaching to standardized tests, would be my guess.

We already have kids and many young-older adults who simply can not write in complete, grammatically correct and coherent sentences. Heavens.....

[HappyMe]

49. I agree.

It's ridiculous and sad. I suppose from now on it will be the garbled, abbreviated crap from texts and twitter.

[Ednahilda]

130. You, too?!

OMG! And some kids learned Gregg shorthand, too! All in the same school career! How did we handle it?

Seriously, though, I'd LOVE to learn shorthand, but I can't find anyone, anywhere who teaches it. Not that I have any pressing need for it, but I think it's cool and it's one of those useful old skills that shouldn't die out.

[bunnies]

61. I cant believe this!

Seriously. I had no idea. I find this incredibly sad. Handwriting will be a lost art in my lifetime.

[IADEMO2004]

5. It's the future

http://tribstar.com/news/x1435410216/Archaic-Method-Cursive-writing-no-longer-has-to-be-taught/print

Cut:

TERRE HAUTE — Starting this fall, the Indiana Department of Education will no longer require Indiana’s public schools to teach cursive writing.

State officials sent school leaders a memo April 25 telling them that instead of cursive writing, students will be expected to become proficient in keyboard use.

The memo says schools may continue to teach cursive as a local standard, or they may decide to stop teaching cursive altogether.

Greene County resident and parent Ericka Hostetter has mixed feelings about the teaching of cursive. She has three children, and two will be in public schools next fall.

“I’m right in the middle,” she said, noting that she learned about it on Facebook. “I don’t use cursive much. I use keyboard. I use my phone, so even for my generation, I think we use the keyboard more.”


End Cut:

Defense is doing a job on her to make her look bad to the jury.

[HardTimes99]

6. When I was in first grade, I came down with measles during the time when

the class was being taught cursive. As a result of an absence of several days, I never learned how to write in cursive exactly the way one is supposed to. I'm not sure how I picked it up eventually, having missed the official lesson in school.

I'm more surprised that the judge is allowing this witness to be humiliated like this. I don't think such humiliation serves the interests of justice.

[Poll_Blind]

18. When I was a child, I was punished by a vindictive teacher who refused to teach me cursive because..

...I hadn't turned in some other assignments, prior. This was in semi-rural Louisiana in the 70's so..

Anyway, I had to teach myself as well- although I should add I'm sure my mother picked up one of those exercise books to help.

About the judge. I don't know all that much about the case and haven't watched the proceedings so far but I imagine the judge would allow it because whether or not the young lady wrote the letter would be something material to the case, however insubstantial that might be.

That's my assumption, anyway.

PB

[davidpdx]

123. I must have had that same vindictive teacher in the 80's

She'd slam my head on the desk.

[WolverineDG]

8. My cousin's kids can't read or write cursive

it's not taught much anymore

[pipi_k]

9. I find it

disturbing, as well, and rather sad.

Before my oldest grandchild was born...12 years ago...I got a diary-type book for grandparents to record stuff in for the grandchild to read many years later. I now have three grandchildren, and I have to admit I haven't asked if any of them can read or write in cursive. I hope they can.

The thought that someday they would not be able to read the words I wrote to them before they were born makes me very sad.

[kentauros]

20. It's no big deal to me.

I'm 52 and have pretty much forgotten how to write in cursive, other than my signature. When I make notes to myself, it's in print, upper and lowercase, but I attribute that skill to my hand-drafting days. Now my drafting and other writing is keyboard-based.

I prefer to write by keyboard. I can type faster than by hand, and I don't get writer's cramp. I also keep my keyboard absolutely flat, so there's less stress on my wrists as my hands are almost level with the desk. Thankfully, at home, I use a drawing tablet instead of a mouse, so there's no carpal tunnel problems like with the mouse. Plus, I can use the tablet for digital calligraphy when I feel so inclined to doodle in it

[pipi_k]

141. My own printing

sucks.

I know that's kind of weird, given that a lot of people would say the opposite...that they print better than they write in cursive.

If I don't care how it looks, I'll print.

If I do care about how it looks (either classy or legible, depending) I'll write in cursive.

I remember when we, as kids, were first taught how to write in cursive. I would look at the words I formed and see all the beautiful loops and squiggles, and not be able to help myself from tracing them over and over again on my papers. I thought they were just so pretty!

This annoyed my teachers, who thought there must be something wrong with me...

[kentauros]

145. For me, whether writing by print or when it was cursive,

it was always a mess. My thoughts get ahead of my fingers, and, whoops, there's yet another messed up word on a nice sheet of paper. There's no "backspace" or "undo" command, you just have to put up with those glaring mistakes

Since you like the look of letters, maybe you should try some calligraphy. If your cursive is mistake-free, then you might like to have a go at it

[ellie]

10. I read an article

about how cursive isn't taught anymore, so who should we be blaming?

[Democracyinkind]

54. BINGO...

This is about education, not her personal failings, IMO.

[Poll_Blind]

65. My OP wasn't meant as any slight to her. The unwritten assumption was that she was a product of...

...the school system she attended.

PB

[ellie]

69. Oh, I agree

[Democracyinkind]

72. Yes, I didn't read your thread that way.

I was stalked by a troll about this topic today and might have come over as a bit touchy because of that.

I didn't want to accuse you in any way!

[Poll_Blind]

75. We're all good! I just wanted to make that clear because so many people read DU, it's..

...often the case that one can spend a decent amount of time composing an OP, only to realize that (some measurable percentage of readers) take it as coming from an entirely different direction than it was meant.

I actually deleted a response in a thread a few weeks ago because two people in a row read it as something entirely different than it was meant.

PB

[WovenGems]

13. Sounds like

dyslexia. In which case the lawyer just upped his cruelty factor to ogre strength.
amended. Not mastering a second language could also cause this. Wanna see me write a letter in German?

[kestrel91316]

14. It's disturbing from an educational perspective; however, it's irrelevant to

her suitability as a murder witness.

[CreekDog]

31. i don't think it's disturbing

the utility of cursive having disappeared, i'd rather the student have spent that time on learning a piece of math, history or science.

[former9thward]

68. It is totally relevant.

It was a letter she supposedly wrote. She clearly did not write it.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

94. Exactly. How could anyone think otherwise?

[NaturalHigh]

119. That's what I thought too.

If nothing else, it proves she was lying about writing the letter. If she's a proven liar, then she's a disaster as a witness.

[REP]

15. Yet another thing I'm very good at becomes obsolete!

First typesetting, now handwriting.

I should start writing shit in Spencetian script just to fuck with the youngs. My natural handwriting is a script I based on Unical.

[Poll_Blind]

33. One of my career incarnations was as a 35mm film projectionist. I know what you mean...

Twelve 35mm projectors, all running smoothly, all at once. On occasion, I still miss the clacking as the sprockets pulled the film through the gate...

PB

[bunnies]

71. *sigh*. The death of film.

Now Im doubly sad. Nothing like the smell of a fresh roll of film & actually needing to be a talented photographer.

[Nye Bevan]

16. Well, I don't like it and I feel like an old curmudgeon for saying so (nt)

[Poll_Blind]

24. I hear ya. Just...things like The Constitution are written in cursive. While I'm sure...

...it's arguably a flimsy argument for teaching cursive, there are so many things in American culture written in it, including many important things. Bits of history...

PB

[sad-cafe]

19. its not tested

so it isn't important in the scope of teachers trying to keep their jobs by teaching to the tests

[pnwmom]

21. I think it's sad. Bad handwriting is one thing, but not being able to read cursive is a real loss,

I think.

[Maeve]

22. There is a loss here

Yes, more schools are skipping cursive and allowing printing for "written" reports. For the most part, it's okay...but not being able to read it means not being able to read much from previous times, like the originals of great documents, Great-grandma's letters or Civil War diaries. It's being half-literate (okay, 80% literate, but it's still a loss).

[theHandpuppet]

105. Totally agree

I would mourn the loss of cursive no longer being taught in our schools.

[JVS]

121. Yeah, I was just going to chime in about my experience with German.

Within a decade of the end of WWII most German printed material changed from a family of fonts called Fraktur to Antiqua, which looks just like what you're reading now. But not only did they change the printed font, they changed the handwriting system from a system called Sütterlin to something more similar to western cursive. This switch started around 1950 and was more or less complete by 1960. What I found interesting in my experiences there is that your typical college student has difficulty with Fraktur (as in, they'll pay good money for a book that is new when they could read the same book in the old typeface for free online) and cannot read the old handwriting. So as a society, even among well educated people, they have a literacy that only goes back about 60 years and the ability of normal people to do archival work is severely limited.

[Maeve]

132. Fascinating! Thank you

The idea of having to "translate" your own language should give us pause.

[dkf]

29. So what do their signatures look like?

Wow. Do they only learn how to write their own name in cursive?

[u4ic]

25. If it is, then doctors shouldn't be witnesses either.

[Jesus Malverde]

28. It's not that she couldn't read cursive, it's that she couldn't read. no?

I assume, reading text is text, regardless of the font.

[Poll_Blind]

44. See, I was under the same impression you were but I think it was JUST cursive.

At first I thought she might have been illiterate. But then I read the article more carefully and it appeared to me it was purely her ability to read and write in cursive that was revealed.

PB

[Jesus Malverde]

55. I'm confused

[Poll_Blind]

60. If you can find an article that describes her as genuinely illerate, post a link.

Before I posted the OP I did some cursory searching and didn't see anything about her being illiterate. Depending on the hand it's written in, cursive can take a bit of deciphering and she indicated (I haven't seen the letter in its original form) that she could only read very tiny parts of it.



PB

[HappyMe]

53. It was the cursive she could not read.

[apples and oranges]

56. Then who is composing her tweets?

[JVS]

120. The biggest shocker was that she was unable to read a letter she had supposedly written.

Which was then explained by her having dictated the letter.

[arely staircase]

34. that is less common than you think

it is not taught like it used to be. I think a lot of people don't know that.

[Downwinder]

35. You don't need cursive to fill in the boxes on a test

[fried eggs]

37. In this computer age, I don't think it matters. My cursive is almost illegible now because

most of my written communication is done by computer, not hand.

[WinkyDink]

45. More's the pity.

[LibertyLover]

42. I both read and write in cursive

but I know my 11 year old daughter doesn't write it very well at all. She can sign her name and that's about it. She can read it a little because I write her notes in it. Her school taught it, briefly. I think the lessons lasted about a week. It makes me somewhat sad, but I also figure since we're active in the SCA that one of these days she'll decide to do calligraphy, which I can't do to save my life, and we'll be even.

[nenagh]

47. My kids grew up in Ireland and were never taught cursive writing...

They were taught to connect the printed letters, so their writing is a fast print..

Looks quite lovely..

[Matariki]

48. "How can you write a decent love letter if you don't do it in cursive?"

Silly old person - you text a photo of yourself naked. Duh.

[Poll_Blind]

67. LOL! I'm 40. A little extra help in the lassoing department never hurts!

PB

[apples and oranges]

50. Many school districts are phasing out cursive, which poses a problem to sight readers

Over the past 20 years, more students have been taught to read by sight-recognition and not by phonics. You can't teach people to read by sight and then expect them to recognize words that are written in cursive, if they've never been taught cursive.

[UFLResearcher]

51. I think it is sad

I think it is sad that she can't read in cursive and I thought it was an embarrassing moment for her as well. If they wanted her to read something in court, they should have had a typed version placed into the transcripts from her depositions. You keep the original letter to maintain the integrity of the evidence, but you have to account for all types of witnesses that might appear in court. That being said, she was a state's witness so it really isn't the defense's job to make sure she can read the letter.

I think that children should continue to learn this skill in schools. I learned when I was in elementary school and I can still write in cursive despite not doing so frequently. It's a beautiful way to write out things in an age where everything is digital and streamlined through print type.

I certainly agree with you on the love letters - its not something that many people do anymore, but I firmly believe that love letters must be written in cursive. It shows that you are taking the time and have enough affection for your love to write something out that way. Like I said, a lost skill but still one that we should find again.

[X_Digger]

59. I can't even remember how to write all the capital letters in cursive.

Then again, I'm left handed, so as soon as I could ditch cursive and the gray or black smudge on the side of my hand, I did.

[Poll_Blind]

76. My son's a leftie. I was thinking about the smudge factor today after I quizzed him.

Not easy being a leftie, I imagine.

PB

[Generic Other]

64. Her mother speaks French Creole

She really is struggling with language skills whether she realizes it or not.

on edit: They don't really teach cursive in school these days. Not on the standard tests.

[Poll_Blind]

92. Does she speak French Creole? Is that her native language?

?

PB

[bunnies]

66. I learned to use cursive in first grade.

And continue to use it to this day. Not so long ago most people had beautiful handwriting. Im sad to see it go. Really sad.

[CreekDog]

101. some people miss manual typewriters too

makes them sad that they are gone.

they've been superseded by superior technologies countless times, but people miss them.

like a Model T, when current cars are better in almost every respect.

what you're talking about is nostalgia.

[bunnies]

104. Yeah.

Youre right. But I cant stand that word. Makes me feel old. I dont miss that damned typewriter though. Except when my printer jams.

[Myrina]

70. The only thing it is is an indictment of "No Child Left Behind" and "Race to the Bottom" ...

.... evidence for everyone to plainly see that the 3 R's aren't being taught in public schools anymore - if public schools are even open - and that Charter Schools don't meet muster since they aren't held to the same standards we used to hold public schools to.

[Politicalboi]

74. How does one sign their name without cursive

My signature isn't legible, but it's all I got.

[CreekDog]

100. if that's the only use for cursive you can come up with

and your example doesn't even require legibility.

then the form has no utility whatsoever.

[HockeyMom]

77. I can write in Gregg Shorthand

Most people think I am writing in Arabic when I do. lol Cursive is going the way of Shorthand. It does have it's advantages. When I meet someone who also knows it, we can write each other notes, and NOBODY will know what we are talking about. SPEAK ENGLISH???? HA!

[grok]

78. Rachael WRITES in cursive.

She wrote a letter to Trayvons mom allaegedly.
So i think it really ODD she can't read cursive now. Does that mean somebody else is involved and wrote it for her?

[link:http://www.flickr.com/photos/81587998@N06/8985364250/in/photostream/lightbox/|]

http://www.flickr.com/photos/81587998@N06/8599626143/

sorry, don't know how to get the link right...

[Poll_Blind]

81. According to the article, she had to admit in open court that she did not write the letter.

And that she could not read it.



PB

[grok]

95. hmm. i blew it.

should have read the entire article or alt least more than the first paragraph.

Was reading the letter two days ago.

[sinkingfeeling]

79. I thought there was an 'education' movement going on to stop teaching

cursive in the public schools.

[tridim]

83. My dad is upset that I didn't learn Morse Code.

But honestly, I don't care. It's obsolete, just like cursive and Roman numerals.

[Poll_Blind]

90. I had to learn Morse for my HAM radio operator's test years ago. Out of curiosity...

...do you consider knowledge of Latin roots as obsolete as Roman numerals? I spend a decent amount of time educating my son on Latin roots on the assumption that it helps him suss out new words more easily- and with the hope that that will make it easier to adopt a larger lexicon.

PB

[tridim]

99. I appreciate that our language is based on Latin roots..

I learned about it taking Spanish in Jr. High. Not obsolete.

Roman numerals are just dumb.

And yes, my dad wanted me to get my HAM license in the early 80's. I think we've talked about this before. I was already BBS'ing at the time and didn't see much of a point. I certainly didn't see the point in learning code when I could just type and the modem took care of the coding/decoding.

[shireen]

96. hell, i can't read some of that cursive writing out there

I've been volunteering online at a citizen science project to catalog botanical specimens. We're presented with scanned images of the preserved specimen that have a card describing species, location, etc.. Some of that handwriting is worse than my doctor's writing.

[Lugnut]

97. I just read that English is not her primary language.

She's supposedly of Haitian descent. I'm guessing that might be the reason.

[Travis_0004]

109. Its still a language that uses latin script

It uses the standard letters A-Z, and they are written exactly the same in creole as they are in English.

I really don't care if she can't read cursive, the bigger problem is that she previously said that she agreed with a letter, only to now admit that she has no clue what it said, because she can't read it.

Why didn't she print it, type it up, send it via email. There were certainly other options.

[TrogL]

98. I'm 57. I can't write readable cursive. I can barely print.

If I hadn't learned typing in Grade 5 I'd have had to drop out of school.

[freeplessinseattle]

103. What about signing your voting ballot?

I've had mine sent back because the signature didn't match the one on file (I think I had been in a hurry, or something).

Car title?

Marriage license?

Will the next generation of celebrity autographs be in print writing? How weird is that? I have an autographed Obama book on disc (where he had to note 2008 bc it was during the campaign) and it would not be the same without his distinctive flourish.

[cbdo2007]

106. I can't remember seeing any cursive at work in the past 10 years....

so I'm not sure why anyone would still consider it relevant.

[bhcodem]

107. Other reasons to learn Cursive

It is a very important , easy way to develop eye/hand coordination. It is still an art as is Calligraphy.

[flamingdem]

108. Can we speak Kreyol or creolized Spanish? She can.

She came from a different background, this is not surprising.

[Soundman]

112. Do you know when handwriting might come in handy?

Handwriting might come in handy if you ever found yourself as a juror in a high profile, racially charged murder case.

May (insert your deity here) help us when the day arrives and we are charged, tried, and convicted based on electronically written statements and digital signatures.

[PoliticAverse]

113. CBS News: Is Cursive Writing Dead ?

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57591586/is-cursive-writing-dead/

[Nevernose]

115. We don't write with sharpened feathers or fountain pens anymore

We don't write with sharpened feathers or fountain pens anymore, and that's really the only reason for cursive writing.

Except for love letters: you're definitely right about that.

Interestingly, I'm an English teacher that never learned to write in cursive. They tried and I didn't see the point. Now I read thousands of lines of handwriting in a day. I count myself lucky if it's coherent.

[nyquil_man]

116. I learned it at an early age.

I find it hard to imagine not being able to read it.

The fact is, though, that we live in a culture in which words are increasingly typed rather than handwritten. I wouldn't be surprised to discover that a teenager didn't know how to write in cursive, let alone read it.

[Captain Stern]

117. G'bye Cursive, and Good Riddance (and take the remnants of the Dewey Decimal System with you)

Cursive sucks. The only thing I've written in cursive since the '80s is my signature.

[NaturalHigh]

118. What is relevant is that she did not write the letter as she claimed.

In other words, she lied, which makes her a disaster as a witness, even if everything else she said was true.

Is it relevant that she can't read cursive? I don't know. A lot of kids aren't taught cursive any more. The traditionalist in me says they should learn it, but when I think long and hard about it, I don't see why somebody can't get by just fine without it. I'm glad my kids were taught to read and write in cursive, but I don't think that they will get a better job because of it. I don't even think they have had to write a cursive rough draft in high school.

[davidpdx]

124. I think it is an important thing to ask your child

writing skills will never stop being important.

[spanone]

125. no.

[HiddenAgenda63]

129. Did she EVER say that she, herself, wrote the letter?

I can't remember, but I am trying (unsuccessfully) to find out.

I don't have a problem with her dictating a letter to someone, however. She doesn't have a problem texting, and that often puzzles me..."Autocorrect" drives me crazy!!!

I'm pretty sure that there is a ton of useless garbage that I had beaten into me by educators during the '60's and '70's that is no longer even slightly relevant - like the metric system, French immersion, Religion, Latin, or Social Studies (I can't even remember what this MEANS, yet I took it for 2 years)...

It shouldn't even remotely be a problem, as long as she maintained that she dictated it from the beginning (prosecutor's interview, defense deposition) and didn't misrepresent herself as having written it...

[baldguy]

131. She also speaks three languages. Is that a big deal?

I think the fact she can't read cursive has more to do with the fact that public schools often don't teach it anymore.

[Lurker Deluxe]

133. I think it's more the lack of writing skill period

Today it is all about the computer. And it is pretty much MS Word. Your spelling is corrected, grammar mistakes pointed out, formating of the page, and spacing and breaks.

The younger people here in our facility have horrid writing skills. When out in the field performing a service and you have to write a report to a customer that shows either a quotation or service performed, lack of writing skills is a huge problem. On the other hand the younger people are able to assist the 50+ senior superintendents on MS Word documents when the report is able to be e-mailed.

Picking up a pad of paper and pen/pencil and being able to take quick and easily read notes when someone is speaking to you is a valuable skill. Lack of that skill is a problem.

[marshall]

134. The issue was that she had alleged that she wrote the letter

I know many young people who cannot read or write cursive. That is not unusual at all in this case. What makes it notable is that she had presented this letter to others, including the court, as something she wrote. And it gave the defense a silver platter moment to erode her testimony.

I'm not making a judgment about whether it is right or wrong, but these are the things lawyers dream of in poking holes in a witness.

[Iggo]

136. Zimmerman chased down, shot, and killed...

...a teenage boy who was walking home from the store.

No, it doesn't matter that one of the witnesses can't read cursive.

[intaglio]

140. In respect of the case it is no big deal - or should not be

in respect of the state of US education