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Thu Jun 27, 2013, 03:31 PM

Which does more damage to our democracy: crime committed by Snowden or crimes his leaks revealed?

It's an obvious question, but sometimes we need to ask these because a handful of people here on DU know how to make their views seem far more widely accepted than they really are.
10 votes, 0 passes | Time left: Unlimited
Snowden's crime hurt our democracy more than the wrongdoing he revealed in his leaks
2 (20%)
The wrongdoing Snowden's leaks revealed hurt our democracy more than his leaking did
8 (80%)
Other (please explain in the comments)
0 (0%)
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Disclaimer: This is an Internet poll

21 replies, 2143 views

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Reply Which does more damage to our democracy: crime committed by Snowden or crimes his leaks revealed? (Original post)
yurbud Jun 2013 OP
Recursion Jun 2013 #1
tridim Jun 2013 #2
Orsino Jun 2013 #6
Skidmore Jun 2013 #13
Tx4obama Jun 2013 #3
msongs Jun 2013 #4
Tx4obama Jun 2013 #7
limpyhobbler Jun 2013 #5
Hydra Jun 2013 #8
OilemFirchen Jun 2013 #9
Tierra_y_Libertad Jun 2013 #10
FarCenter Jun 2013 #11
limpyhobbler Jun 2013 #14
FarCenter Jun 2013 #15
limpyhobbler Jun 2013 #16
FarCenter Jun 2013 #18
L0oniX Jun 2013 #20
railsback Jun 2013 #12
Hydra Jun 2013 #17
yurbud Jun 2013 #19
Hydra Jun 2013 #21

Response to yurbud (Original post)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 03:32 PM

1. Neither are terribly important

The NSA has abused some metadata on the one hand, and China knows how we read their emails on the other. I call it a wash.

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Response to yurbud (Original post)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 03:34 PM

2. Nobody knows, and thus this poll is pointless.

Those who do know aren't voting in online polls.

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Response to tridim (Reply #2)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 03:47 PM

6. +1. n/t

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Response to tridim (Reply #2)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 04:13 PM

13. +2

No one knows, even those DUers who are so sure they do.

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Response to yurbud (Original post)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 03:37 PM

3. Snowden has released only a handful of the 1,000s of documents he stole so far...


... the full extent of his treachery has not yet been revealed.

So, in the long run Snowden's felonious crimes will greatly damage our country more than they already have.

Hopefully he will be arrest soon and stand trial.



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Response to Tx4obama (Reply #3)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 03:43 PM

4. "legally" murdering people with drones is doing far more damage than anything snowden can do nt

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Response to msongs (Reply #4)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 03:49 PM

7. Your comment has nothing to do with the topic at hand. n/t


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Response to yurbud (Original post)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 03:46 PM

5. I like polls.

Mass spying on the people hurts democracy. Exposing it helps.
Seems obvious to me. I'm surprised so many clearly well-meaning people are willing to accept so much government overreach, seemingly because they want to defend Obama or something.

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Response to yurbud (Original post)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 03:56 PM

8. Snowden's reveals are forcing a lot of secret(and illegal) programs into daylight

We have to ask the question- would we be better off today had Snowden kept silent at his job and enjoyed his rather posh lifestyle?

The truth exacts a heavy price when the lies have gotten out of hand.

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Response to yurbud (Original post)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 03:58 PM

9. "It's an obvious question"

If, by that, you mean it has an obvious answer then your poll belies your contention.

Nice jumping to conclusions though!

BTW, this was a fun touch: "a handful of people here on DU know how to make their views seem far more widely accepted than they really are". Were you to take a poll on that I'd bet you'd find pretty unanimous agreement. Were you to preface it with an ill-considered editorial, however, I'd also bet you'd be dismayed by who the "handful of people" are.

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Response to yurbud (Original post)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 04:02 PM

10. A secret government, or a government of secrets, isn't democrocy.

 


"In a way, we as U.S. citizens owe Edward Snowden a thank you for having brought this issue to the forefront and so that we can begin to have a serious and genuine conversation about these issues." Valerie Plame

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Response to yurbud (Original post)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 04:02 PM

11. Has Snowden revealed any criminal activities? Not that I've seen.

 

OTOH, he's clearly purloined and caused to be published classified information, which is a crime.

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Response to FarCenter (Reply #11)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 04:52 PM

14. Yes the extent of NSA surveillance is both unconstitutional and illegal.

Also it is a crime against decency and common sense.

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Response to limpyhobbler (Reply #14)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 04:59 PM

15. What they've done has been scrutinized by the DoJ and permitted by the FISC, appointed by the SC

 

They have specifically put processes in place to ensure that the law is followed. Since the FISC judges are US district court judges appointed by the Supreme Court to serve in rotation, their decisions are probably going to survive scrutiny on constitutional grounds.

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Response to FarCenter (Reply #15)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 05:04 PM

16. The FISA court ruled NSA activity in violation of the 4th Amendment at least once.

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Response to limpyhobbler (Reply #16)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 05:40 PM

18. So when the activity was ruled unconstitutional, it was stopped.

 

It wasn't unconsititutional prior to the ruling.

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Response to FarCenter (Reply #15)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 08:29 PM

20. I hear that rubber stamps last a long time.

 

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Response to yurbud (Original post)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 04:07 PM

12. Its easy to prove the crime Snowden committed

 

But the NSA isn't committing crimes just because you don't like it and say they are. I would like to assume that most of you have done jury duty, but that doesn't really seem to be the case.

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Response to railsback (Reply #12)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 05:13 PM

17. The FISA court thinks differently

They ruled that the NSA was in violation of the 4th Amendment. They won't let us see that ruling because it proves that they did all of this illegally.

All of this is beginning to unravel because of the Warrant Snowden gave Greenwald which itself is was violation of the 4th amendment.

These are crimes paramount to treason, and the defenders of the policy are acting like it's no big deal.

Newflash- it totally is.

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Response to Hydra (Reply #17)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 08:24 PM

19. thanks for bringing that info to the thread.

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Response to yurbud (Reply #19)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 10:36 PM

21. You're very welcome! :)

Senators Udall and Wyden have been able to speak up about this because of what Snowden has leaked as well- they don't support this and believe it's illegal, but the rules in the intelligence committee and for briefings forbid them from even talking about what's going on after it's discussed behind closed doors.

That's absolutely crazy that they are being forced into a gag order while the NSA and the President are blithely saying this is all legal transparent and has good oversight including from congress. They managed to force the NSA to pull their official talking points because some of them weren't even true.

*shakes head* Crazy world. Doesn't much look like democracy.

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