Silly authorian me!

[Vietnameravet]

My latest post on this matter ..triggered by over -the-top attacks on those like me that apparently have this foolish idea that betraying trust and revealing your country's security secrets is nothing to win praise for. Silly, authoritarian, me for failing to understand such people are heroes!

You can call me an authoritarian and tell people like me to crawl back in the hole from which we came, as one poster has said, but where I come from if you privately disagree with what the general is doing you don't reveal the war plans to the enemy and you certainly don't make heroes of those that do. Edward Snowden had plenty of opportunity to inform those in Congress, the media and the general public of the ongoing spying programs in such a way as to bring about a healthy debate. Instead he chose to release vital information that has damaged our security system. Some may call him a hero as he flees to the protection of his friends in China and Russia but I call him a thief, a liar and a traitor.

As for the issue of spying..

I can't help wonder about the naivety of those who insist that “free nations do not engage in spying.” For years the FBI has spied on the Mafia, the Ku Klux Klan and other extremist groups. Do you really think the British do not spy on those radical mosques in London? Should they do otherwise? And what if there is an attack. Can they spy these groups in an effort to find those responsible or is that too authoritarian?

Every nation is involved in spying and I am sure that many of those foreign officials expressing shock and dismay are secretly laughing at our naïveté for thinking otherwise.

Some act as if all this comes as quite a shock to them. They think there should be no spying at all and are surprised to find there is. If these people have their way and if there a successful terrorist attack that will bring to power a radical government their “rights” will be short lived.

I understand full well there is a danger here but there has not been one shred of evidence to show that such spying was done with the intent of destroying President Obama's enemies or undermining democracy in America. And the very man so many voted for has said there are adequate safeguards in the courts and Congress but that is not enough for some.

Spying is a part of life, part of the world and in spying on foreigners who wish to wreck havoc here it's inevitable that at some point in time our own citizens will be spied upon. I don't like it and I know it's dangerous but it's the world we live in the accepted as part of what we must do. I don't think that makes me an authoritarian. I think it's realism and a recognition of the true nature of the world we live in.

And again I cant help but think there is a great resemblance between those that think any spying is a violation of their rights and the NRA who thinks any kind of gun control is the same.

[villager]

1. "War plans to the enemy?" You mean, to us?

Since increasingly, we are considered "the enemy" of the 1%?

Very authoritarian indeed.

[Recursion]

3. China. Snowden told China which of their computers we've hacked and how

Allegedly.

[villager]

4. "allegedly"

Indeed.

[Recursion]

6. I'm not even sure the guy exists, personally

Let alone what he did or didn't do.

[Marr]

10. lol, "allegedly".

He's "allegedly" been several things that turned out not to be so. Anyone who embarrasses powerful people is invariably "alleged" to be a whole lot of things.

[marions ghost]

2. The spelling police are gonna getcha

for "authorian" --fix it *

OK you said your piece and I read it and don't agree. What the government does is not always OK. There would be no light on this subject at this time if it were not for whistle blower Snowden. And in fall 2013 and 2014 there are even more programs going online in the NSA's surveillance scheme. The time frame is critical.

This is the problem:

"Today, alongside each one of us, there exists a second, electronic self, created in part by us, in part by others. This other self has become de facto public property, owned chiefly by immense data-crunching corporations, which use it for commercial purposes. Now government is reaching its hand into those corporations for its own purposes, creating a brand-new domain of the state-corporate complex." (Schell, The Nation)

*--or maybe don't fix it and dare to be different

[galileoreloaded]

5. not silly

but an anachronism.

[WinkyDink]

7. Maybe we should just sell toilet paper with the Constitution written on the rolls.

[Arctic Dave]

8. Is it bedtime?

[99Forever]

9. Bingo.

[cherokeeprogressive]

11. Ya see, the thing I always find funny about this is the notion he should have gone to the government

So, he should have gone to the very entity so involved in keeping secrets from the general population? The very entity who's involved in COLLECTING information about the general population? That's comical on its face. What would he have said? "Listen, Mr. Senator, I've seen things I shouldn't have seen that I think might be of interest to the general public. Would you help me expose the fact that the government is spying on its population? This is not right, and might expose Senators and Congresscritters as having a hand in the collection of information the government has no right to."

What do you think would have been the response? I'm thinking it would have been something akin to the scene in Men in Black where the Cleanup Crew shows up not only to sanitize the area, but to convince the general public that nothing had happened and they needed to move on. Those boxes in his garage that made him such a bad guy? Gone. Those neighbors he didn't talk to that made him such a bad guy? Moved.

Call me paranoid? I have a list of things that starts about two hundred years ago outlining shitty things "the government" has done in the name of "keeping us safe" that not only harmed innocent people for the rest of their lives, but wound up ENDING the lives of innocent people. Smallpox? LSD? Syphilis? In the name of what? In WHOSE name? To WHAT END? The part of government Mr. Snowden is intending to expose isn't the part people rely on every day, week, month, and year. The part of the government he's endeavoring to expose is that part that has no interest in working in public, transparently. The part of the government that is involved and concerned in one and only one thing: Protecting government.

I have no inclination to hope Snowden escapes justice. I'm of the opinion that he KNEW what a BOMB he possessed, and he KNEW how hard the US Government would search in order to find him. He KNEW what charges he would face. He'll pay the Piper soon enough, of that I am sure. In the meantime, he started a discussion that WILL NOT GO AWAY and I thank him for that.

[marions ghost]

17. ^^^ excellent points

Right--there would be no incentive at all to go to the govt and expect to get anywhere. People who say that don't really understand how monolithic structures operate to protect themselves at all costs. He knew what he was dealing with. Yep.

[Skidmore]

40. So Wyden and Udall are not trustworthy ?

Or Grayson or even someone Snowden supports--Paul?

[cherokeeprogressive]

41. Would I trust them with my life? No.

[Lady Freedom Returns]

12. I still can not forget the interveiw.

The CBS Nightly News showed a clip from that interview, and I have been trying to hunt it down since.

In it he said he had he has names and info on NSA agents and overseas contacts.

I STILL think he is out to sell some of his ill gotten gains. If he does have those names, if he can find a buyer, he will then be a murder.

If I could find that Darn clip...


Since I heard that, he is a bad, Bad ,BAD man.

[marions ghost]

13. He's not motivated by money

I know that is hard for many people to believe.

If he wanted to make money off this, it's not the way you go about it.

[Lady Freedom Returns]

18. With him saying that one thing.

I don't believe it and want him in jail ASAP.

[marions ghost]

20. Nah it's not money

--he did a good thing for this country in the long run, whether he goes to jail or not.

I think people who feel like you may eventually come to see that.

[Lady Freedom Returns]

21. I will only see a Benedict Arnold.

And hopefully soon, see him in JAIL!

[marions ghost]

23. OK

but the important point is what he has revealed whether he goes to jail or not. If he goes to jail we are still being illegally surveilled by our own government. Snowden's more like Paul Revere. I hope we the people can respond accordingly.

[Lady Freedom Returns]

25. Not by me or by many others.

We will celebrate those that catch him. They will be the patriots!

[Mojorabbit]

28. I totally disagree. nt

[Lady Freedom Returns]

29. Just remember, if he really does have what he says he has,

If he sells it before we catch him, people will be harmed.

Then will people keep calling him a tittle he never deserved?

[Mojorabbit]

31. He said he was being very careful with what he had

and was getting the advice of certain journalists on what to release. He totally does not strike me as someone who has done this for money. He would not be in the mess he is in now if he had just sold it and then went underground in China or wherever.

[Lady Freedom Returns]

34. He did not want to give out his best weres.

I trust him telling the truth about as far as I can throw the Washington Monument!

When you have a good product and is a s STUPID as he is, you go around and get the best price. The Guardian got used to help with Advertising.

[okaawhatever]

15. I too, realized the significance of that statement. A chill went down my spine. I knew he made that

statement as an advertisement for his wares, so to speak. There is nothing more valuable than that. Especially with the foreign informants we have working with us. We can't protect them the way we do our own people. Unless there was a way to be sure he didn't get that info, we had to shut down any number of operations just in case. No hero, that one.

[Lady Freedom Returns]

30. The NSA is probably going nuts right now try to go threw everything.

I hope to Providence that they find he is blowing smoke in hopes to back us off.

[Whisp]

19. There are a lot of worried friends and family of those agents now.

What a fucking, soulless bastard.

[Lady Freedom Returns]

22. He is a monster trying to hide wrapped in the flag.

He is hiding from everyone as a whistle blower. But once he sell that info, people will see him as the murder he is!

[muriel_volestrangler]

39. It would help your case if you could find it

because it's entirely possible you misunderstood what he said. I haven't seen people in the media saying he sounded like he was suggesting giving out the names of agents. Just you.

[usGovOwesUs3Trillion]

46. He didn't say that at all, he simply noted that if he had bad intentions that he could have (LINK)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/video/2013/jun/09/nsa-whistleblower-edward-snowden-interview-video (9:30)

He makes it plain that his intentions were simply to inform the public of wrong-doing by our government.

[Blecht]

14. If you insist, ...

You can call me an authoritarian and tell people like me to crawl back in the hole from which we came,

You are an authoritarian!

You and people like you need to crawl back into the hole from which you came!

You're welcome!

[JaneyVee]

26. Actually, surveillance has nothing to do with authoritarianism.

[Whisp]

16. You are a writer? Gosh, there are tons of us here lately.

Is this a convention? Where's my swag?

I kid, I recommended your post.

[leftstreet]

24. It's 'wreak havoc,' not 'wreck havoc' n/t

[cherokeeprogressive]

27. It's a hard road to hoe. You should know that. n/t

[Brewinblue]

33. Enough!

Now kindly just tow the line.

[Art_from_Ark]

32. So, what exactly were you fighting for

in the Vietnam era?

[Bonobo]

35. He was told to do so.

So he did.

That's called patriotism, to some. To others, it is called something else.

[arely staircase]

44. but we all appreciate our vets

nt

[Vietnameravet]

42. FYI

I opposed the Vietnam war and joined the AF instead.. I spent most of my years as an Information Specialist on American Forces Radio and TV. I volunteered for a rescue mission during a series of disastrous rainstorms in 1972. Our helicopter went down as we were going from barrio to barrio dropping food to starving people below. We fixed the copter and continued on our way.. I helped save many lives and am damn proud of what I did..

[Art_from_Ark]

45. Nice story, but

Apparently you don't remember what we were always being told back then-- we were so much better than the USSR, East Germany, Red China, et al, because people in those countries lived in constant fear because their governments were spying on them, among other things. Sorry, but your argument that blanket domestic spying in the United States is necessary is total bullshit.

[MineralMan]

43. Not everyone who served during the Vietnam era

was in combat. I certainly wasn't. I'm still a veteran of that era. It's important to understand that, I think.

Nothing whatsoever that I did during the Vietnam war had anything to do with that war, despite being in the USAF. Nothing.

[usGovOwesUs3Trillion]

47. No Kidding

[usGovOwesUs3Trillion]

36. I wouldn't call them "heros", I believe PATRIOT to be a more appropriate term.

And in regards to spying being done throughout history, it was never done on such a massive scale, not to mention indiscriminately, those two points are brand new, and is why folks are having a problem with it, and if you are an American, your other major concern is that they have now also turned this massive suspicionless spying apparatus on all of us, another new BIG deal.

as far as being concerned for ones constitutionally protected rights, it is your prerogative not to care, but you must also respect that is also the rest of our prerogative to care, and in the case of ones right to privacy, this is a huge deal, as throughout much of history, people did not even have that right, and suffered mightily because of it, being ignorant of history you might not recognize it's real value but as an American you should know that these hard won rights are what used to make our country unique in the world, not that other nations do not now also have simular rights, but that we were the pioners, and i for one do not want to surrender them, especially under the false pretense of security, or no other reason for that matter as these RIGHTS is what makes us not only great, but AMERICA!

[Scuba]

37. I miss the unrec button.

[hobbit709]

38. One time I refused to obey an illegal order.

It caused me a lot of hassle, all sorts of threats and intimidation were made but I stuck to it. It took 6 months but I was vindicated and the Captain giving the illegal order was reprimanded