What?! Our international spying agencies are spying internationally!!!!

[pnwmom]

The horrors!

[morningfog]

1. On civilian ally governments!

[pnwmom]

3. Shocking! It's not as if a country like Iceland, for example,

would ever have interests different from ours. Iceland would never choose to help someone like Assange, who released unredacted names of US agents and associates around the world. Right?

[Comrade Grumpy]

7. Can you point me to the death toll from the Wikileaks leak?

As opposed to, say, the policies and practices it was leaking about?

[polly7]

4. Who may not be quite so eager to share information on things like

terrorism (which is the whole excuse some are using here for it ALL) because they're pissed that data gained from these bugs/surveillance could be used against them in so many ways ... economical, trade, influencing elections, etc. etc. etc. People really need to think a little about the value of trust and co-operation in a world where it's essential to prevent things like 9/11, imo.

I wonder how much of that European data corporations like Monsanto have had access to?

[morningfog]

5. So, our bugging and potential wrongful use of such information has made our allies less

likely to share vital information with us, which leads us to need to spy harder to get the information they are hesitant to share with us?

[treestar]

12. Things like terrorism - they are concerned about too

And may well rely on us a great deal in that regard.

[polly7]

15. Yeah. That's a given. nt.

[1StrongBlackMan]

2. Yeah ...

I was as shocked to read that, too!

[Whisp]

6. Is that a CNN headline? n/t

[MannyGoldstein]

8. And domestically

On every American.

[pnwmom]

13. Thanks to Snowden, that is no longer the media's focus of attention. n/t

[jazzimov]

17. Not true! Please go back and read

the documents that were leaked, instead of spouting BS.

[FSogol]

9. Heh, heh. K & R. n/t

[Warren Stupidity]

10. Sort of causing a shit storm in Germany.

What with almost half their population relatively recently liberated from the original Stasi State and everything it seems they really don't like this sort of bullshit much.

But never you mind that, just keep the authoritarian booster brigade talking points coming.

[pnwmom]

16. Yes, and so it was wonderful that Snowden started that shit storm.

Bow down to the great Snowden, chief leaker of the world!

[muriel_volestrangler]

18. Leave Big Brother Alone!!!

Big Brother is the wisest entity in the world! Big Brother must have all the possible information, because only Big Brother is clever enough to make sense of it all! But all you nasty meanies are ganging up on Big Brother, and telling each other what He does! Big Brother can only keep us safe if we don't realise what Big Brother is doing. Why can't everyone see how benevolent Big Brother is?



If we don't shut up, Big Brother may not love us any more ...

[flamingdem]

22. The Germans love Obama so I think they'll get it

I think he has 80% approval over there..

[Warren Stupidity]

27. Wow. Straight shoot the messenger.

Luckily Germans aren't total fucking idiots and are actually pissed off about the spying being done to them and not the person who revealed that they were being spied on.

[pnwmom]

28. He isn't the messenger.

He's the leaker of classified documents who had sworn to keep them confidential.

[treestar]

11. And of course none of them are every spying on us!

They are just victims of us!

[pnwmom]

14. Of course! They would never do that!

[last1standing]

19. We spy on them while they spy on us. Most have known this for years.

I believe what most people are objecting to is a policy of spying both internationally and domestically that appears to have gotten out of control.

For example, does it pass Constitutional muster if Great Britain collects voice recording and data on a US citizen and then trades that information to the CIA in return for data collected on one of their citizens? Is a warrant required for the information the CIA has just received? Is there any oversight to prevent abuses from this practice? I would like answers to these questions, wouldn't you?

I know that both sides here are frustrated because they don't think the other side is listening to them but who will take the first step of trying to understand that the government is not inherently evil yet does appear to have overstepped its legal limits. When can we get past the sarcasm and insult to demand that safeguards for our liberties are restored? This is what I would like to see happen but right now all I'm seeing are posters trying to hurt the feelings of other posters. What benefit is that? Who does it help? Is this what posters thought they'd be doing when the first signed on to this site?

What is our objective here? Is it to win an argument or find a solution?

[pnwmom]

20. "the government is inherently evil" isn't necessarily something everyone agrees with

unless it is equivalent to saying "everyone in the government is human, and all humans are flawed."

From dictionary.com:

In·her·ent [in-heer-uhnt, -her-] Show IPA
adjective
1.
existing in someone or something as a permanent and inseparable element, quality, or attribute

Many of us feel that the government isn't necessarily, permanently evil.

[last1standing]

21. Sorry, I changed that typo just as you were posting your response.

Should have read, "government is not inherently evil."

Very big typo.

[pnwmom]

24. oops!

I've been guilty of typos myself.

[last1standing]

25. I guess its the nature of a format that doesn't allow for immediate reaction.

You should see my average text message. I'm going to have to learn some proof reading skills.

Regardless, I hope you agreed with the point I was trying to make now that I've fixed a major typo that completely changes the meaning.

[pnwmom]

26. Yes, I do. That change changed everything, since I'm not an anarchist or a Libertarian.

[Warren Stupidity]

29. Generally that sort of quid pro quo

scheme to circumvent the clear intent of the law would not pass minimal scrutiny. However the courts are basically unwilling to even hear these cases, so yes echelon was using the "we'll do yours and you do ours" scam decades before prism.

[usGovOwesUs3Trillion]

23. Mass Suspisionless Surveillance on Everyone is What's New

Yes, that is the brave new world we all live in, and some appear to welcome it with open arms.

creepy