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Savannahmann

(3,891 posts)
Sun Jun 30, 2013, 09:19 AM Jun 2013

History repeating itself.

There are crucial moments in history, moments where the future is laid out before you. Moments when courage is required, and change is no longer on the horizon, it is standing before you. In the 1200's, the King of England was essentially defeated. The people had an opportunity to make a move to the first true Democracy. Yet, they battled and they fought, and with victory in sight, they stopped, because the future without a King was too frightening to those who had fought for change. They got the Magna Carta, and the royal privilege was again cemented into civilization. Perhaps onto civilization would be a better way of phrasing it.

The death of Lenin. We know now that Lenin left instructions, he was after all a very smart individual, who would certainly understand that man is mortal. His instructions were simple. Take our dream, move forward. I don't know which of you will lead, but whomever it is, don't let it be Stalin. Stalin was the only one with a vision, the others were afraid to take up the mantle, afraid of being the one who would finish forming the first Communist nation. They knew what they thought it should be, and they believed they knew what Lenin thought it should be, but the one guy who Lenin said should not have it, was the one who was confident enough to take the reigns, and untold suffering fell upon millions. The dream was perverted into a cult of Joe Stalin. The future was right there, right before those who had the choice, and they let their fears stop them from acting.

The American Revolution. We reached a compromise, an agreement, and we formed a nation. One where the men, but not the women, and only the land owners were free. In time, we expanded it. First we gave everyone the vote. We fought a war to free the slaves, and we fought a war to end the divisions in our nation. Lincoln, the one with the foresight to see us through, died. The mantle was to be taken up, but there wasn't anyone willing to reach across and carry the load. Instead we made the mistake that was make in history, and would be made again. We forced reparations out of the defeated people. And just like every other time in history, it created resentment. It was bad enough to lose a war, but to pay for the privilege of losing was intolerable.

World War I. We had a chance of a true lasting peace, and we frittered it away. Everyone had read a book and believed the book, that economic reasons would prevent any war from lasting more than six months. So everyone planned on a short vicious all out war that would come in under that wire. The problem was that nobody could afford to lose the war, That brought out the ideas of national war. Wilson had the right idea, that there must be a peace without victory, but the combatants wouldn't listen. They could not afford anything but victory, because here again, the losers had to pay the cost of the war.

Sure enough we are now on the march to World War II. Hitler could have been stopped a dozen times, all from France and England standing up and saying no when Hitler decided that the peace treaty was no longer applicable. But England and France decided that it wasn't worth war, not in the mid 1930's, not when their economies were struggling to recover.

Time and time again through history. We reach the threshold of major changes, and we shy away. We are more afraid of the unknown, than we are of the known. The devil we know.

So we live in a surveillance state. On this very site, we have denounced IBM for co-operating in the establishment of databases in Nazi Germany, because while it was an interesting and profitable technical challenge for IBM, it was used for horrific purpose, to identify the Jewish People and mark them for destruction.

That we can find no example in history to guide us on how to set up a surveillance state that was not abused, we still move forward, making the same mistakes over again. We're afraid of what we can't see, and what we can see, while frightening, is better than the alternative.

It is a historical fact that Hitler was not elected by a majority of the German People. The Nazi's never got more than 36% of the vote. They were a super Tea Party. But the powers that be, Hindenburg and the RW Military, were more afraid of the Communists and leftists, than they were of Hitler. The conservative elements thought they could control the beast, and it would be useful to get rid of the greater enemy, the Communists.

History, you would think that people would use it to prevent them from making mistakes all over again. You would think that we would learn from History, and when someone suggests something similar to a horrific example, that we would all look upon this idea with disgust, and it would be denounced, and prevented.

But there is something else that drives mankind down this path time and time again. Arrogance. We are convinced we can keep from making the mistakes of the past, we can do it better, because we are better and smarter than they were. Hitler knew that nobody had invaded Russia and won. He'd read the books, and knew the military history. But they were superior to the army under Napoleon, and they were smarter. So instead of learning the real lesson, don't invade a nation as massive as Russia, they thought they could come up with a better plan, and avoid the tactical mistakes that Napoleon made, while making the same strategic mistake.

At no time in history have the people who live in a Surveillance state ever continued living free for long. Now, before you think I'm saying Obama is going to put us under some sort of martial law, no I am not. I am saying it will happen, eventually. Perhaps not in this administration, perhaps not in the next. But it will happen. Our children, and grandchildren will suffer from this weakness we are showing today. Our children and grandchildren will weep when the hear about how things used to be, when we were free.

We should never allow our elected representatives this kind of power over us. We should never allow them to possess this kind of information about us. We should always stand up and fight for our civil rights, because each time we've lost one, or one has been diminished, we never get it back. It is gone forever.

Again we stand up, looking towards the future. The decision is before us, and it is almost behind us. It is almost too late. Because if we don't act now to end this surveillance state, we will suffer in the future. We know it, history teaches it, and the only question is will we learn or will we shy away from the decision, because we're afraid of what might happen if we don't. The lesser of two evils is still evil.

12 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
History repeating itself. (Original Post) Savannahmann Jun 2013 OP
Our children, and grandchildren will suffer from this weakness we are showing today. nashville_brook Jun 2013 #1
historical perspective winetourdriver Jun 2013 #2
I agree 100%! im1013 Jun 2013 #4
And there it is. Hell Hath No Fury Jun 2013 #3
Excellent post Autumn Jun 2013 #5
With your permission, Savannahmann, im1013 Jun 2013 #6
The Tweet/facebook/whatever link is in every OP Savannahmann Jun 2013 #11
Well said. K&R Tierra_y_Libertad Jun 2013 #7
Here's the ProSense Jun 2013 #8
Even if true Savannahmann Jun 2013 #10
Well said... kentuck Jun 2013 #9
Add in the complete concentration of wealth and the power it attracts and we have WCGreen Jun 2013 #12

im1013

(633 posts)
6. With your permission, Savannahmann,
Sun Jun 30, 2013, 12:37 PM
Jun 2013

I'd like to post this to Twitter.

I think your op elegantly describes exactly what I've been trying to get through
to people for a while now.

 

Savannahmann

(3,891 posts)
11. The Tweet/facebook/whatever link is in every OP
Sun Jun 30, 2013, 01:54 PM
Jun 2013

You need not have my permission, it is assumed that permission is granted by the posting of the missive. But thank you for asking.

ProSense

(116,464 posts)
8. Here's the
Sun Jun 30, 2013, 12:43 PM
Jun 2013
There are crucial moments in history, moments where the future is laid out before you. Moments when courage is required, and change is no longer on the horizon, it is standing before you. In the 1200's, the King of England was essentially defeated. The people had an opportunity to make a move to the first true Democracy. Yet, they battled and they fought, and with victory in sight, they stopped, because the future without a King was too frightening to those who had fought for change. They got the Magna Carta, and the royal privilege was again cemented into civilization. Perhaps onto civilization would be a better way of phrasing it.

<...>


World War I. We had a chance of a true lasting peace, and we frittered it away. Everyone had read a book and believed the book, that economic reasons would prevent any war from lasting more than six months. So everyone planned on a short vicious all out war that would come in under that wire. The problem was that nobody could afford to lose the war, That brought out the ideas of national war. Wilson had the right idea, that there must be a peace without victory, but the combatants wouldn't listen. They could not afford anything but victory, because here again, the losers had to pay the cost of the war.

<...>

At no time in history have the people who live in a Surveillance state ever continued living free for long. Now, before you think I'm saying Obama is going to put us under some sort of martial law, no I am not. I am saying it will happen, eventually. Perhaps not in this administration, perhaps not in the next. But it will happen. Our children, and grandchildren will suffer from this weakness we are showing today. Our children and grandchildren will weep when the hear about how things used to be, when we were free.

...problem with all of this: It's becoming increasing harder to keep secrets under wraps. The world is smaller because of technological advances in communications.

Frankly, I see more individuals than countries attempting to trigger wars (with Iran, North Korea, etc.)

 

Savannahmann

(3,891 posts)
10. Even if true
Sun Jun 30, 2013, 01:53 PM
Jun 2013

Even if the idea that more individuals are trying to start wars, does that justify the surveillance state? Should we, as a people, not reject the immoral because it is immoral? You can always find someone who will justify an outrage. It is our rejection of that justification that moves us forward as a people.

We can't afford the Military Industrial Complex, we can't afford the Intelligence Industrial Complex. We can ill afford them in dollars, or in damage to our civil rights. That path has been walked before, and down that path lies only darkness, pain, and immeasurable human suffering.

WCGreen

(45,558 posts)
12. Add in the complete concentration of wealth and the power it attracts and we have
Sun Jun 30, 2013, 04:13 PM
Jun 2013

a the making of another dangerous fascist state.

Remember, Fascism, in it's purest manifestation, is the blending of wealth with a huge military and surveillance culture and we get a revolving dictatorship that gives the ruled a false sense that they have a stake in how the country is run.

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