Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

onehandle

(51,122 posts)
Sun Jun 30, 2013, 09:30 AM Jun 2013

Inching Towards Becoming A Full Blown Religion, Atheists Create Their Religious Symbol

First Atheists start building churches, now this.



STARKE, Fla. — A group of atheists unveiled a monument to their nonbelief in God on Saturday to sit alongside a granite slab that lists the Ten Commandments in front of the Bradford County courthouse.

As a small group of protesters blasted Christian country music and waved "Honk for Jesus" signs, the atheists celebrated what they believe is the first atheist monument allowed on government property in the United States.

"When you look at this monument, the first thing you will notice is that it has a function. Atheists are about the real and the physical, so we selected to place this monument in the form of a bench," said David Silverman, president of American Atheists.

It also serves another function – a counter to the religious monument that the New Jersey-based group wanted removed. It's a case of if you can't beat `em, join `em.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/30/atheists-monument_n_3523762.html

Atheists In Worship:

192 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Inching Towards Becoming A Full Blown Religion, Atheists Create Their Religious Symbol (Original Post) onehandle Jun 2013 OP
Hm. sibelian Jun 2013 #1
Having the Ten Commandments displayed on public property is just the right wingers way of trolling.. Kolesar Jun 2013 #2
I agree. Trolls trolling trolls and distracting from real problems. onehandle Jun 2013 #11
Divide and conquer has always worked. Because people are too reactionary. Monkey see, monkey do. freshwest Jun 2013 #57
If it was just about posting the 10 commandments, that is no big thing. They want to change our alfredo Jun 2013 #68
This is oxymoronic. WinkyDink Jun 2013 #3
Exactly loyalsister Jun 2013 #26
Or maybe it is a symbol of a belief in science. Coccydynia Jun 2013 #60
Or maybe there's a rhetorical problem here loyalsister Jun 2013 #90
The point is to represent reality in the Coccydynia Jun 2013 #126
And there could certainly be some advantages to having access to the tools of religions BlueStreak Jun 2013 #104
Yes! Good call. Except it might be a trap Coccydynia Jun 2013 #127
There are some hazards, but on balance I think it is worth doing. BlueStreak Jun 2013 #136
Thanks for th laugh..... whistler162 Jun 2013 #138
The monument embraces belief in unbelief marshall Jun 2013 #149
To be honest, most of these quotes have more to do with secularism and state/church cbayer Jun 2013 #150
You can say that again. VPStoltz Jun 2013 #66
I refuse to go to HuffPo, so could you help me out? blogslut Jun 2013 #4
Both of those lines were authored by onehandle muriel_volestrangler Jun 2013 #13
Both of those phrases are ridiculous. IMO, etc. djean111 Jun 2013 #67
Forehead slap IDemo Jun 2013 #5
If atheism is a religion... Lizzie Poppet Jun 2013 #10
Nice. IdaBriggs Jun 2013 #19
+100000000 Champion Jack Jun 2013 #27
ha! Kali Jun 2013 #48
Bald is used to describe hair style. n/t Boudica the Lyoness Jun 2013 #52
But not a color. morningfog Jun 2013 #76
How is bald a hair style? ornotna Jun 2013 #145
It is, according to the DMV! nt MADem Jun 2013 #87
Well said! zappaman Jun 2013 #134
Given the zealotry of some of the Atheists on whistler162 Jun 2013 #141
That will fit on a bumper sticker RC Jul 2013 #177
Many atheists make it into a religion as far as I am concerned. A Simple Game Jun 2013 #77
There is no god, matter just doesn't work like that... snooper2 Jul 2013 #170
Good!! Finally someone with all the answers. A Simple Game Jul 2013 #181
energy being? first I heard of that one- snooper2 Jul 2013 #183
Maybe it uses people to store its memory. A Simple Game Jul 2013 #185
Okay snooper2 Jul 2013 #186
You think god is a star? New one to me. A Simple Game Jul 2013 #189
gods are mythological creatures dreamed up by old men snooper2 Jul 2013 #190
While I agree that some fail to understand the difference between fact and belief... Lizzie Poppet Jul 2013 #188
Now be honest, it's just a minor stretch on my part to associate a belief with religion. A Simple Game Jul 2013 #191
I'm not saying you're way off target... Lizzie Poppet Jul 2013 #192
That's the stupidest thing so far this morning. hobbit709 Jun 2013 #6
it's the letter "A" surrounded by flying electron things BOG PERSON Jun 2013 #18
It looks like a representation of atomic energy from the 50s. Arugula Latte Jun 2013 #80
Symbols are but one requirement for religion. Apophis Jun 2013 #45
Having a symbol makes it a religion? Lordquinton Jun 2013 #65
What about the "golden arches" of lunasun Jun 2013 #71
Blasphemer! Lordquinton Jun 2013 #93
A quickie worshipper that just wants to get in and out I see! lunasun Jun 2013 #156
The inscription on the side begins with "An atheist believes... " how silly. reformist2 Jun 2013 #7
Why is that silly? muriel_volestrangler Jun 2013 #15
First off, atheists tend to be against "believing" things, and secondly, I'm sure not all atheists reformist2 Jun 2013 #21
Huh? burnodo Jun 2013 #23
What? "Atheists tend not to believe in things?" Who told you that? Your pastor? We believe... Logical Jun 2013 #32
I think the distinction is that "belief" does not apply to facts, for he who does not accept facts WinkyDink Jun 2013 #56
Our reaction to facts is based on belief. ZombieHorde Jun 2013 #63
But I don't "believe" the world is round(ish); I know it. WinkyDink Jun 2013 #158
Do you believe that you are more than a brain in jar? ZombieHorde Jun 2013 #159
Which is why I'm not an atheist. But I am a skeptic. Your understanding of belief TalkingDog Jun 2013 #73
I think all atheists would favour building a hospital rather than a church muriel_volestrangler Jun 2013 #35
Can you prove that atheists are against believing things??? dixiegrrrrl Jun 2013 #37
Atheists are unified in one thing and one thing only. reformist2 Jun 2013 #82
Agreed. And the replies above are disturbing LittleBlue Jun 2013 #148
This atheist certainly believes something about you...nt SidDithers Jun 2013 #42
This atheist believes you're post is moronic. Apophis Jun 2013 #49
Oh my, the hostility to my post is hilarious! reformist2 Jun 2013 #78
hilarious and well deserved datasuspect Jul 2013 #165
That's nonsense RudynJack Jun 2013 #86
huh, how about that. Javaman Jul 2013 #169
ok that's just idiotic Bradical79 Jul 2013 #171
It's silly because we (atheists) are in NO way defined by what we believe TroglodyteScholar Jun 2013 #22
yep. hence the "A". Schema Thing Jun 2013 #29
Again, we have beliefs, as do all humans, about the real world, and our actions in it muriel_volestrangler Jun 2013 #38
It doesn't matter what I think about that subject. It is independent of my atheist tendency. TroglodyteScholar Jun 2013 #51
The uselessness of churches and prayers would be one thing in common muriel_volestrangler Jun 2013 #58
That's a false assumption, though. TroglodyteScholar Jun 2013 #79
Well said and i thank you for saying it. There are many who feel the same. cbayer Jun 2013 #128
I see value in prayer loyalsister Jun 2013 #94
I don't agree that people should be never be criticized Mariana Jun 2013 #107
That way off track loyalsister Jun 2013 #109
Wait, what? I thought the only thing atheists had in common was no belief in god. cbayer Jun 2013 #129
If you don't believe in gods, then prayer is useless muriel_volestrangler Jun 2013 #131
But you are now expanding the meaning of atheist, and doing so without cbayer Jun 2013 #133
Praying to non-existent gods is useless muriel_volestrangler Jun 2013 #139
Again, that is your opinion and to generalize it means you have expanded the definition of atheist. cbayer Jun 2013 #142
Highly inaccurate statement. NCTraveler Jul 2013 #163
Agreed. nt Deep13 Jun 2013 #114
That's an idiotic symbol unless you're a superhero Orrex Jun 2013 #8
Remember "The Atom"? rug Jun 2013 #116
I'd never sit on that bench, then. He might bite my ass. freshwest Jun 2013 #119
He's cool. His superpower is that he can reduce himself to the size of an atom. rug Jun 2013 #121
Still eville! A precursor to the nanobots and molecular engineering to control our minds! freshwest Jun 2013 #125
Just as well, then. He'd just be working for the NSA by now. rug Jun 2013 #130
That's been around for a while; it's on Pat Tillman's grave Recursion Jun 2013 #9
The darwin fish is more betterer. Warren Stupidity Jun 2013 #12
It's cooler looking, to be sure Mariana Jun 2013 #83
Are they going for tax exempt status? If so, I can't say as I blame them. n/t Tuesday Afternoon Jun 2013 #14
I've been saying that for a couple of years. onehandle Jun 2013 #17
What church has an atheist built? muriel_volestrangler Jun 2013 #16
I'm not worried burnodo Jun 2013 #20
Why not worship reason? sibelian Jun 2013 #59
Why "worship" at all? I see no need to worship any damn thing. djean111 Jun 2013 #69
Worship is the consciously maintained attribution of significance. sibelian Jun 2013 #143
The Sunday Assembly. rug Jun 2013 #25
As you know very well, they didn't build anything muriel_volestrangler Jun 2013 #34
You don't need to build an edifice to be a church. rug Jun 2013 #100
The OP claims atheists have already built churches muriel_volestrangler Jun 2013 #103
I see. Even though the Sunday Assembly decribes itself as "part-atheist church", you deny it. rug Jun 2013 #106
The OP is about a monument muriel_volestrangler Jun 2013 #117
That's how churches are built. First you meet - regularly. Then you buy a building. rug Jun 2013 #118
Only if you ignore the meaning of 'build', and the context of this thread muriel_volestrangler Jun 2013 #120
Keep gnawing on that bone, muriel. rug Jun 2013 #122
Sounds like a UU church to me. Apophis Jun 2013 #61
The difference is the Sunday Assembly does not contemplate the existence of God. rug Jun 2013 #101
The ethical humanist society has been around for over 100 years. Warren Stupidity Jun 2013 #96
And is every building a church? muriel_volestrangler Jun 2013 #102
in the loosest possible sense of the word, yes. Warren Stupidity Jun 2013 #105
There are a few out there Bradical79 Jul 2013 #173
Here's the video. rug Jun 2013 #24
Ugh. Religious pioty and conflict in public. Don't we get enough of this from the GOP? nt onehandle Jun 2013 #39
If any more benches are built ChazII Jun 2013 #28
Whose lame idea was that? BeyondGeography Jun 2013 #30
It looks like it was chosen about 1963 muriel_volestrangler Jun 2013 #40
I'll take Door #2 BeyondGeography Jun 2013 #41
Well, I'm not worried as long as this doesn't start happening. (again) TalkingDog Jun 2013 #31
Eek! Root of conservative dogma on godless Russian Communism and Christian persecution. freshwest Jun 2013 #55
Yep. I had that epiphany too. TalkingDog Jun 2013 #70
I have no issue with this. n-t Logical Jun 2013 #33
If I saw that symbol on public land it would scare and intimidate me terribly The Straight Story Jun 2013 #36
Although I'm not an Atheist, I'm a full supporter of their cause. Let's hope Atheism isn't exploited TroubleMan Jun 2013 #43
imo, organizing atheists would be akin to herding cats. as a lifelong atheist (60+ years), ellenfl Jun 2013 #88
Title is absolute rubbish. longship Jun 2013 #44
well explained. eom ellenfl Jun 2013 #91
That's not the title that appears on HuffPo Rob H. Jul 2013 #184
What's an atheist church? A university? Apophis Jun 2013 #46
As a secular humanist fully simpatico withatheism,turning it into a religion is jumping the shark nt UTUSN Jun 2013 #47
They should create a symbol that's easier to draw nt Islandurp Jun 2013 #50
Not so long ago it was a RW Christian talking point to call atheism a religion whatchamacallit Jun 2013 #53
Yes... sibelian Jun 2013 #62
Why are you making shit up? hootinholler Jun 2013 #54
Shoddy article, but what else did you expect from huffington, alp227 Jun 2013 #64
I approve of the idea, but that symbol makes me think "radioactive" mainer Jun 2013 #72
I would expect a DUer to know atheism is not a religion. immoderate Jun 2013 #74
This message was self-deleted by its author Solly Mack Jun 2013 #75
I don't see Atheism as a religion SCVDem Jun 2013 #81
Are they playing for the Isotopes? Union Scribe Jun 2013 #84
All right, listen up, fellow Atheists, we're a religion now! Arugula Latte Jun 2013 #85
Unlimited Sex! SCVDem Jun 2013 #95
Yes indeed. Lots of sex, and also lots of MONEY. Arugula Latte Jun 2013 #147
Amway Is A SCAM!!! Textex Jul 2013 #162
winner of "most ridiculous headline of the day," LOL.... mike_c Jun 2013 #89
I've been saying this for years LittleBlue Jun 2013 #92
What's it lead to? Ugly benches? Bradical79 Jul 2013 #174
You must have a working crystal ball LittleBlue Jul 2013 #175
- IDemo Jun 2013 #97
+++ Starry Messenger Jun 2013 #113
Sorry. The title of your post is bogus, or at least ignores history. The logo was chosen in 1963.. DreamGypsy Jun 2013 #98
The Cross was a religious symbol long before Christ. onehandle Jun 2013 #99
Ah, now I understand your point: the Sierra Club has been a religion... DreamGypsy Jun 2013 #137
Just BS /nt aka-chmeee Jun 2013 #108
Bullshit. Iggo Jun 2013 #110
Good work, Athiests! Now, can someone tell this Christian what the open arc in the middle patrice Jun 2013 #111
Yes. The meaning of the open orbital in the symbolic atom is ... DreamGypsy Jun 2013 #140
Is this a religious symbol: Deep13 Jun 2013 #112
Not sure I like the concept mick063 Jun 2013 #115
I wonder if any CT types have noticed the semi-hidden Star of David Orrex Jun 2013 #123
Your OP is bullshit trolling MellowDem Jun 2013 #124
It's important to note that they did this in response to losing cbayer Jun 2013 #132
When the Tao is absent, ritual arises. Lao Tse Tierra_y_Libertad Jun 2013 #135
:) sibelian Jun 2013 #144
meh, looks like a logo to me... usGovOwesUs3Trillion Jun 2013 #146
Yes. They also meet regularly in *gasp* BUILDINGS. Therefore, they're churches. QED. Arugula Latte Jul 2013 #182
Yay America! Politicub Jun 2013 #151
Not this ... f'n nonsense ... again intaglio Jun 2013 #152
The OP changed the wording of the Huff Post article to mislead people for some reason! yortsed snacilbuper Jun 2013 #153
I think it should have this quote/question from Antonio Porchia. Snotcicles Jun 2013 #154
Ha! greytdemocrat Jun 2013 #155
It looks like it came right out of the Jenoch Jun 2013 #157
"Our Richard Dawkins, who art in Oxford, hallowed be thy name....." (nt) Nye Bevan Jun 2013 #160
Just a corporatist logo. Not a religious symbol. bravenak Jul 2013 #161
One reason I'm an Atheist... trumad Jul 2013 #164
Can the Nativity now be placed next to the Bench and Menorah during winter solstice? nt One_Life_To_Give Jul 2013 #166
Being an Atheist... Javaman Jul 2013 #167
I am an atheist and I have serious problems with this malaise Jul 2013 #168
"Inching Toward frogmarch Jul 2013 #172
To quote WovenGems Jul 2013 #176
hahaha, they sure go through a lot of effort for something they don't believe in. cbdo2007 Jul 2013 #178
I drove right by this courthouse two hours ago.... A HERETIC I AM Jul 2013 #179
Until that stupid symbol scares away vampires, I ain't buying it. Orrex Jul 2013 #180
Don't like it.. Should be a blank block of granite. haele Jul 2013 #187

Kolesar

(31,182 posts)
2. Having the Ten Commandments displayed on public property is just the right wingers way of trolling..
Sun Jun 30, 2013, 09:37 AM
Jun 2013

... public discussion. The weather satellite budget has been sacked, college education is unaffordable, the atmosphere is being destroyed--all of those issues are pushed out of public consciousness while we fight over stupid granite slabs.

onehandle

(51,122 posts)
11. I agree. Trolls trolling trolls and distracting from real problems.
Sun Jun 30, 2013, 10:12 AM
Jun 2013

The 1%ers love shit like this.

alfredo

(60,071 posts)
68. If it was just about posting the 10 commandments, that is no big thing. They want to change our
Sun Jun 30, 2013, 12:33 PM
Jun 2013

form of government into a Tyranny ruled by an imaginary king. Instead of a government ruled by the people, we'd have a government ruled by priests and compliant lawmakers.

loyalsister

(13,390 posts)
26. Exactly
Sun Jun 30, 2013, 10:52 AM
Jun 2013

It disgusts me when I see crap like that. True atheism is a very simple intellectual position. In other words, to me it is not a belief in disbelief.

loyalsister

(13,390 posts)
90. Or maybe there's a rhetorical problem here
Sun Jun 30, 2013, 01:16 PM
Jun 2013

For me atheism= non belief.
Accepting scientific conclusions as valid is not simple belief, as it is based on evidence.

 

BlueStreak

(8,377 posts)
104. And there could certainly be some advantages to having access to the tools of religions
Sun Jun 30, 2013, 01:57 PM
Jun 2013

For example, tax free status, the ability to compete for voucher school grants, and the ability to post atheistic principles in the public square right next to the 10 Commandments.

I think it is a good thing. Of course a non-believer doesn't have to join that "church" any more than a person who believes in spirits must join the Catholic Church.

 

Coccydynia

(198 posts)
127. Yes! Good call. Except it might be a trap
Sun Jun 30, 2013, 03:18 PM
Jun 2013

Set by the Teabaggers and Regressives to banish science from the public square in the interest of their new love of separation of church and state.

 

BlueStreak

(8,377 posts)
136. There are some hazards, but on balance I think it is worth doing.
Sun Jun 30, 2013, 04:02 PM
Jun 2013

People call "atheism" a religion anyway, so we might as well get the benefits.

For example, I think one way to fight all this public money flowing into Christian schools is for Muslims, Scientologists, and atheists to fight for their share of that money. If these teabagger types saw that some of their money was going to non-Christians, they would probably freak out, and that's a good thing.

And maybe that would force them to take atheism to court to get a ruling that it isn't a religion. That would also be a good thing too, I think, because it would set the stage for challenging many of these giant enterprises that are hardly religious but make their money acting like a religion.

Is it a mega-church or just a big social club?

Is it a teevee religion or just another commercial network?

In other words, the hazards go both ways.

 

whistler162

(11,155 posts)
138. Thanks for th laugh.....
Sun Jun 30, 2013, 04:05 PM
Jun 2013

"True atheism is a very simple intellectual position" mow that is a real oxymoron!

marshall

(6,665 posts)
149. The monument embraces belief in unbelief
Sun Jun 30, 2013, 05:10 PM
Jun 2013

I would rather it be left with the quotes of those famous people, but it has to juxtapose itself with Christianity by including Bible verses. It essentially does not let atheism stand on its own, but turns it into something that needs religion to identify itself.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
150. To be honest, most of these quotes have more to do with secularism and state/church
Sun Jun 30, 2013, 05:15 PM
Jun 2013

separation than they do with atheism.

blogslut

(37,993 posts)
4. I refuse to go to HuffPo, so could you help me out?
Sun Jun 30, 2013, 09:43 AM
Jun 2013

The title of this post and the bit at the end:

Inching Towards Becoming A Full Blown Religion, Atheists Create Their Religious Symbol

&

Atheists In Worship:

Are those the words of the article's author, the AP, HuffPo, or, are those your words?

muriel_volestrangler

(101,294 posts)
13. Both of those lines were authored by onehandle
Sun Jun 30, 2013, 10:31 AM
Jun 2013

HuffPost shows the article title as "Atheists Unveil Monument Near Ten Commandments In Florida ". That's almost identical to the msn.com use of the AP article "Atheists unveil Florida monument near Ten Commandments", so I think that originated with AP or the article author. There's no caption for the photo.

 

djean111

(14,255 posts)
67. Both of those phrases are ridiculous. IMO, etc.
Sun Jun 30, 2013, 12:30 PM
Jun 2013

Anyway, anything that paints all atheists with a broad brush is nonsensical at best.
As an atheist, I wouldn't cross the street to go to an atheist gathering. I am already busy meeting with people who don't believe in unicorns.
That symbol, as has been discussed here a couple of weeks ago (actually, the installation was discussed at length here a few weeks ago) looks like some sort of atomic or nuclear trademark.
Silly at best.
Wouldn't buy the tshirt.

IDemo

(16,926 posts)
5. Forehead slap
Sun Jun 30, 2013, 09:46 AM
Jun 2013

Referring to atheism as a religion is nonsensical. Because I think gremlins don't exist does not mean I have a religious belief but that I recognize the logical and scientific absurdity of the entire concept.

 

whistler162

(11,155 posts)
141. Given the zealotry of some of the Atheists on
Sun Jun 30, 2013, 04:07 PM
Jun 2013

this site. Bald must be a hair color. per your logic.

A Simple Game

(9,214 posts)
77. Many atheists make it into a religion as far as I am concerned.
Sun Jun 30, 2013, 12:46 PM
Jun 2013

If you say you don't believe or think there is a god, fine. If you say there is no god, not fine. Saying without a doubt something is so, in this case that there is no god, when there is no proof, is a belief which can be classified as a religion.

Myself I claim to be an agnostic, I don't care if there is a god. There could be many, but I see no reason to give any of them consideration as they have not shown themselves to me nor given me any signs that they have had any influence on my life for the good or bad. If a god wants to prove to me they are indeed a god, then and only then will I believe there is a god. I may then decide to worship them or not.

But the bottom line to me is that if you say with 100% certainty but no proof that there are no gods, that is a belief and is equal to a religion. Without proof stating there is or is not a god deserves equal standing. Either stand without proof will merit the same response from me, disbelief. Anyone who is scientific will say that you can not prove a negative, so why do so many people professing to follow science try to do just that in the case of religion?

A Simple Game

(9,214 posts)
181. Good!! Finally someone with all the answers.
Mon Jul 1, 2013, 12:46 PM
Jul 2013

But god, not Jesus, has always been portrayed as sort of an energy being, am I wrong? What, don't tell me you forgot about energy? How about a "thought" being, one that has a parasitic relationship with people? The "thought" being is pure energy and the people provide the matter. Could explain why s/he has to use people to do his/her work. Could also explain why some have the religious "bug" and some like me don't.

Then there's dark matter, never been seen, doesn't emit or absorb light, people don't really know much about it, could this be the "Dark Lord" I have heard about? Is that why some days I feel sluggish, because I'm surrounded by dark matter? Maybe god is trying to get to me.

But I don't care. I even know how matter and energy work, well not the dark variety, and I still don't care. But I know one thing you don't, I can never prove there is no god and neither can you.

 

snooper2

(30,151 posts)
183. energy being? first I heard of that one-
Mon Jul 1, 2013, 01:06 PM
Jul 2013

how would it's memory work?

No organic matter at all? Any carbon atoms? Be kind of hard to move a fucking mountain with just magical energy thoughts wouldn't it?



A Simple Game

(9,214 posts)
185. Maybe it uses people to store its memory.
Mon Jul 1, 2013, 03:01 PM
Jul 2013

Maybe that is what the 90% of our brain that we don't use is for.

You never heard of religion being called spiritual? How about the holy ghost?

Most data is transfered as energy, light, electic, mostly as on or off, etc.

But enough of what is possible, tell me how all of it is impossible. Prove there is no god.

A Simple Game

(9,214 posts)
189. You think god is a star? New one to me.
Mon Jul 1, 2013, 04:03 PM
Jul 2013

I do like the simulation theory though. See the following link: http://www.simulation-argument.com/simulation.html
While not actually a god, this theory does hypothesize that we were created by our descendants, which would equate them with gods.

If I absolutely had to pick one it would be Gaia, it just appeals to the romantic side of me.
See the following link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaia_(mythology)

But of course I should stop now because you can refute all of these in your sleep, right?

 

snooper2

(30,151 posts)
190. gods are mythological creatures dreamed up by old men
Mon Jul 1, 2013, 04:10 PM
Jul 2013

They sound all warm and fuzzy, kind of like the troll that lives under the bridge in Dora...

But sorry, just stories.

That Supernova? That's what created us-




Also, no "God" created the universe, because there was no time for a "God" to create one. Time didn't exist...

 

Lizzie Poppet

(10,164 posts)
188. While I agree that some fail to understand the difference between fact and belief...
Mon Jul 1, 2013, 03:51 PM
Jul 2013

...that error still doesn't make atheism a religion, per se. I consider that to require a number of characteristics that atheism doesn't possess ( most importantly, belief in some form of supernatural controlling power, which is a component of the definition of the term in most any lexicographical source).

Atheism is most definitely a belief system (or at least a belief...hard to call a single doctrinal point a "system&quot , though. Anyone categorically stating that there are no such things as gods (in a context that doesn't make it clear that there's an "I believe" being implied) bears the burden of proof for their assertion. I with 'em luck (and they'll become one of the most famous figures in the history of philosophy if they can pull it off).

In this sense, we're all technically agnostics, both theists and atheists alike. No one knows whether gods exist...at least not in any way that fulfills knowledge conditions. We all have to make something of a Kierkegaardian leap of faith to arrive an an operative conclusion, a way to act one way or another in matters which require a resolution of the question of god(s)' existence.

A Simple Game

(9,214 posts)
191. Now be honest, it's just a minor stretch on my part to associate a belief with religion.
Mon Jul 1, 2013, 04:13 PM
Jul 2013

We do now have a symbol, that must get atheism to second base as a religion.

It does seem that we are close to 100% in agreement otherwise.

BOG PERSON

(2,916 posts)
18. it's the letter "A" surrounded by flying electron things
Sun Jun 30, 2013, 10:37 AM
Jun 2013

it's a brand logo. "A" for atheism!

the idea isnt to make atheism a religion, but a *brand*

 

Apophis

(1,407 posts)
45. Symbols are but one requirement for religion.
Sun Jun 30, 2013, 11:54 AM
Jun 2013

Religion also needs ritual, repetition, the sacred, and the profane.

Atheism got a brand label, and they've had that particular symbol for years.

lunasun

(21,646 posts)
156. A quickie worshipper that just wants to get in and out I see!
Sun Jun 30, 2013, 06:46 PM
Jun 2013

At least you leave with a bible passage to ponder though,............... so you are most likely correct about being triumphant in burger heaven!.
http://www.snopes.com/business/alliance/inandout.asp

muriel_volestrangler

(101,294 posts)
15. Why is that silly?
Sun Jun 30, 2013, 10:35 AM
Jun 2013

The belief it talks about is a value judgement - that a hospital should be built, rather than a church. It's perfectly reasonable to use the verb 'believe' for that.

reformist2

(9,841 posts)
21. First off, atheists tend to be against "believing" things, and secondly, I'm sure not all atheists
Sun Jun 30, 2013, 10:42 AM
Jun 2013

are in favor of building hospitals.
 

Logical

(22,457 posts)
32. What? "Atheists tend not to believe in things?" Who told you that? Your pastor? We believe...
Sun Jun 30, 2013, 11:01 AM
Jun 2013

in the same stuff others do except made up gods.

 

WinkyDink

(51,311 posts)
56. I think the distinction is that "belief" does not apply to facts, for he who does not accept facts
Sun Jun 30, 2013, 12:13 PM
Jun 2013

is not an "unbeliever," but an idiot.

ZombieHorde

(29,047 posts)
63. Our reaction to facts is based on belief.
Sun Jun 30, 2013, 12:25 PM
Jun 2013

Our beliefs also lead us to inquiry, which leads us to facts.

ZombieHorde

(29,047 posts)
159. Do you believe that you are more than a brain in jar?
Sun Jun 30, 2013, 10:58 PM
Jun 2013

Such as a brain in a body that can interact with the actual universe. I do, but we don't know how to prove it. If you are a brain in a jar, imagining the universe, then physics could be very different. The world, if there is one, could be a different shape.

Additionally, most of the science things we know we were told about by other people, and we then either believe them or we don't believe them. When we don't personally experience something, we take others at their word to accept it as fact. We have to believe them. This belief may be the most logically conclusion (e.g.; why would thousands of scientists all over the world lie about X?), but it is still a belief.

TalkingDog

(9,001 posts)
73. Which is why I'm not an atheist. But I am a skeptic. Your understanding of belief
Sun Jun 30, 2013, 12:43 PM
Jun 2013

and how much you do of it (subconsciously or unconsciously) is deeply flawed.

Based on your experience you believe the Sun will rise tomorrow, in the East as it always has (based on seasonal variations) for your entire life. You think it based on rational facts, but you also believe it. There are many reasons (albeit very unlikely ones) that the Sun will not come up tomorrow. Or that it will not come up in the east.

You can deny that you believe things, but it simply untrue. You believe many things. Some of them as irrational as religious dogma. Some of them more harmful than religious dogma. You believe things because you are human and that's how our brains work.

If you don't understand the point I'm getting at, then there is no need to carry this conversation further.

muriel_volestrangler

(101,294 posts)
35. I think all atheists would favour building a hospital rather than a church
Sun Jun 30, 2013, 11:11 AM
Jun 2013

even if they're an atheist who wants to make a profit from it.

Atheists are against believing in the supernatural. It's not about having no opinions about the real world, and what is best for the real world.

dixiegrrrrl

(60,010 posts)
37. Can you prove that atheists are against believing things???
Sun Jun 30, 2013, 11:12 AM
Jun 2013

Do aetheists vote?
Do they drive cars?
Do they believe there is no magic man in the sky deity that everyone should worship?
Do they work?
Do they spend money?
Do they have families and children and relationships?

reformist2

(9,841 posts)
82. Atheists are unified in one thing and one thing only.
Sun Jun 30, 2013, 12:59 PM
Jun 2013

A plaque that spells out a whole laundry list of things they "believe" is on its face nonsensical.
 

LittleBlue

(10,362 posts)
148. Agreed. And the replies above are disturbing
Sun Jun 30, 2013, 05:03 PM
Jun 2013

They are now fervently arguing what atheists believe. I've seen this before.

What if I think people should build what they want with their own money? What if I think prayer is fine? Are there atheists who are also bad people?

The above folks, as an atheist, scare me. They are turning from logic into the realm of conformity to this fantasy that atheists all believe one thing, and are benevolent.

 

datasuspect

(26,591 posts)
165. hilarious and well deserved
Mon Jul 1, 2013, 09:44 AM
Jul 2013

no one is under any compulsion whatsoever to suffer foolishness of ANY form, including your malformed, absurd opinion.

RudynJack

(1,044 posts)
86. That's nonsense
Sun Jun 30, 2013, 01:08 PM
Jun 2013

"believe" has multiple meanings.

be·lieve (b-lv)
v. be·lieved, be·liev·ing, be·lieves
v.tr.
1. To accept as true or real: Do you believe the news stories?
2. To credit with veracity: I believe you.
3. To expect or suppose; think: I believe they will arrive shortly.
v.intr.
1. To have firm faith, especially religious faith.
2. To have faith, confidence, or trust: I believe in your ability to solve the problem.
3. To have confidence in the truth or value of something: We believe in free speech.
4. To have an opinion; think: They have already left, I believe.

TroglodyteScholar

(5,477 posts)
22. It's silly because we (atheists) are in NO way defined by what we believe
Sun Jun 30, 2013, 10:42 AM
Jun 2013

We're defined by what we don't believe.

muriel_volestrangler

(101,294 posts)
38. Again, we have beliefs, as do all humans, about the real world, and our actions in it
Sun Jun 30, 2013, 11:14 AM
Jun 2013

I believe the US needs a more progressive income tax system. Now, that's not a belief that all atheists will share, but "better to build a hospital than a church" is one that I think all atheists would get behind.

Do you really not have an opinion on the subject?

TroglodyteScholar

(5,477 posts)
51. It doesn't matter what I think about that subject. It is independent of my atheist tendency.
Sun Jun 30, 2013, 12:04 PM
Jun 2013

I don't prefer a hospital "because" I'm Atheist.

There are very few, if any, beliefs that all Atheists will share.

TroglodyteScholar

(5,477 posts)
79. That's a false assumption, though.
Sun Jun 30, 2013, 12:58 PM
Jun 2013

I see a place in this world for churches and prayers. The fact that I don't buy into it doesn't negate the fact that for many, many people, religion is the best path to having some peace of mind in this life. I'm not offended by churches and prayers--I'm offended by hucksters and fanatics.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
128. Well said and i thank you for saying it. There are many who feel the same.
Sun Jun 30, 2013, 03:39 PM
Jun 2013

I continue to find it interesting that some atheists tend to use the first person plural and make statements they think reflect the POV of most, if not all, atheists.

loyalsister

(13,390 posts)
94. I see value in prayer
Sun Jun 30, 2013, 01:29 PM
Jun 2013

It makes people feel like they are taking action when they can't control things.
I don't have to agree with their beliefs to understand that it is soothing to them and think that it is useful and they should be able to do it without criticism.

Mariana

(14,854 posts)
107. I don't agree that people should be never be criticized
Sun Jun 30, 2013, 01:59 PM
Jun 2013

for praying. For example, if someone is publicly praying for the death of the President, as has been done, that person is deserving of criticism for his prayer. I don't care how "soothing" it is to him.

loyalsister

(13,390 posts)
109. That way off track
Sun Jun 30, 2013, 02:06 PM
Jun 2013

1st I never said never. Obviously it's a pretty rare event for someone to publicly pray for anyone's death. The vast majority of people pray in private and with good intentions.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
129. Wait, what? I thought the only thing atheists had in common was no belief in god.
Sun Jun 30, 2013, 03:41 PM
Jun 2013

Now they also share a POV about the uselessness of churches and prayers? I'm not sure that you can make that general statement about atheists.

muriel_volestrangler

(101,294 posts)
131. If you don't believe in gods, then prayer is useless
Sun Jun 30, 2013, 03:47 PM
Jun 2013

And a church is also useless - certainly compared with a hospital.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
133. But you are now expanding the meaning of atheist, and doing so without
Sun Jun 30, 2013, 03:53 PM
Jun 2013

any authority.

There is evidence that not everyone shares your POV. I suppose you will say that they are not truly atheists, then, but I would strongly disagree with you on that point.

You are merely expressing your personal perspective on church and prayer. You can't speak for others.

muriel_volestrangler

(101,294 posts)
139. Praying to non-existent gods is useless
Sun Jun 30, 2013, 04:05 PM
Jun 2013

Building edifices to worship non-existent gods is useless. People can be irrational, but I don't think I've known an atheist who thinks a prayer is better than a deed, or a church than a hospital.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
142. Again, that is your opinion and to generalize it means you have expanded the definition of atheist.
Sun Jun 30, 2013, 04:22 PM
Jun 2013

I see it posted over and over again that atheism is very rigidly defined as a lack of belief in a god or gods and that that is the only thing atheists have in common.

And you are basing it on your anecdotal experience?

You can say many. You can say all the ones that you know.

But I would argue that you can't say this is a position held by all atheists. Particularly since there is evidence to the contrary.

Some might say that to do so would be overtly irrational, lol.

 

NCTraveler

(30,481 posts)
163. Highly inaccurate statement.
Mon Jul 1, 2013, 09:38 AM
Jul 2013

"If you don't believe in gods, then prayer is useless. And a church is also useless"

Many atheists see the power and need for prayer in others life. You are not a spokesperson for atheism. You are a spokesperson for your thoughts and ideas, some of those beliefs you have stated have nothing to do with atheism.

Religion, as a whole, can do horrific things. Churches can teach some pretty horrific things. Churches can also help people to find sobriety, help people to find strength when things are out of their control, help to cover rent for a mother and children, volunteer to clean up a community park, and so much more.

Church is useless to you. Prayer is useless to you. You do not have the ability to comprehend if it is useful to the widow down the street.

Orrex

(63,189 posts)
8. That's an idiotic symbol unless you're a superhero
Sun Jun 30, 2013, 09:47 AM
Jun 2013

I'd rather have a blank slab of marble than that "atom," and I'd rather have nothing at all instead of the marble slab.


This is a step backwards.

 

rug

(82,333 posts)
121. He's cool. His superpower is that he can reduce himself to the size of an atom.
Sun Jun 30, 2013, 02:33 PM
Jun 2013

I'm sorry he never became more popular. The plotlines are endless.

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
9. That's been around for a while; it's on Pat Tillman's grave
Sun Jun 30, 2013, 09:49 AM
Jun 2013

I remember you could request that on a marker in 2004 or so.

onehandle

(51,122 posts)
17. I've been saying that for a couple of years.
Sun Jun 30, 2013, 10:37 AM
Jun 2013

Why have a religion and not take the perks?

If KKKarl Rove can do it with his 'social betterment' group...

muriel_volestrangler

(101,294 posts)
16. What church has an atheist built?
Sun Jun 30, 2013, 10:36 AM
Jun 2013

De Botton thought building one would be a good idea, but no-one seems to have made any attempt to get that started as a project.

sibelian

(7,804 posts)
59. Why not worship reason?
Sun Jun 30, 2013, 12:19 PM
Jun 2013

Why not treat reason itself as sacred?

Reason is intangible. It replaces ignorance with knowledge.

From the meaningless void reason conjures meaning.

Could there be anything more appropriate for the adjective "sacred"?

sibelian

(7,804 posts)
143. Worship is the consciously maintained attribution of significance.
Sun Jun 30, 2013, 04:31 PM
Jun 2013

It's a way of making things important. I have no problem with the idea of worship itself.
 

rug

(82,333 posts)
25. The Sunday Assembly.
Sun Jun 30, 2013, 10:51 AM
Jun 2013
The Sunday Assembly is a godless congregation that meets on the first Sunday of every month to hear great talks, sing songs and generally celebrate the wonder of life. It’s a service for anyone who wants to live better, help often and wonder more.

Come on down to hear inspirational speakers and to enjoy a morning that is part-foot stomping show, part-atheist church.


http://sundayassembly.com/

muriel_volestrangler

(101,294 posts)
34. As you know very well, they didn't build anything
Sun Jun 30, 2013, 11:07 AM
Jun 2013

I'm disappointed to see such a misleading reply from you. You can't claim ignorance on this topic.

 

rug

(82,333 posts)
100. You don't need to build an edifice to be a church.
Sun Jun 30, 2013, 01:51 PM
Jun 2013

They've already rented space in several countries. Just like those quaint storefront churches.

As you well know.

Don't worry. If they take off I'm sure they'll build and own their own venue.

muriel_volestrangler

(101,294 posts)
103. The OP claims atheists have already built churches
Sun Jun 30, 2013, 01:54 PM
Jun 2013

But onehandle doesn't seem to care about inaccuracies, either.

 

rug

(82,333 posts)
106. I see. Even though the Sunday Assembly decribes itself as "part-atheist church", you deny it.
Sun Jun 30, 2013, 01:58 PM
Jun 2013

Because they didn't build the building they hold their Sunday morning services in.

Obviously there is more than one person peddling inaccuracies.

muriel_volestrangler

(101,294 posts)
117. The OP is about a monument
Sun Jun 30, 2013, 02:24 PM
Jun 2013

When this is described as following on from 'building churches', it's clear that it's a claim that atheists actually build churches. Not 'meet regularly'.

 

rug

(82,333 posts)
118. That's how churches are built. First you meet - regularly. Then you buy a building.
Sun Jun 30, 2013, 02:27 PM
Jun 2013

The rest is history.

To be clear, atheism is not a religion. But it's dishonest to disregard a group that is billing itself as one.

muriel_volestrangler

(101,294 posts)
120. Only if you ignore the meaning of 'build', and the context of this thread
Sun Jun 30, 2013, 02:32 PM
Jun 2013

It's not as if the 'Sunday Assembly' is even staying in the same place. They now advertise a different venue, in a different area of London, from where they started.

 

rug

(82,333 posts)
101. The difference is the Sunday Assembly does not contemplate the existence of God.
Sun Jun 30, 2013, 01:52 PM
Jun 2013

It is explicitly atheist.

 

Warren Stupidity

(48,181 posts)
105. in the loosest possible sense of the word, yes.
Sun Jun 30, 2013, 01:57 PM
Jun 2013

In the same sense as the op. I don't agree with the op I think it is rank bullshit, I also think de botton is a silly git, but if one wishes to declare places were atheists regularly get together as 'places of worship' for example to qualify for the same stupid tax exemption that religious businesses get for their 'churches', I'm all for that. It might be a way for Barnes & Noble to get out of the fiscal hole they are in

 

Bradical79

(4,490 posts)
173. There are a few out there
Mon Jul 1, 2013, 10:42 AM
Jul 2013

Of course it is about community building rather than worshiping a deity, but the format is similar. I don't have a link handy on this phone, but a google search should turn up an.article or two. Someone probably posted about them in the religion forums.

ChazII

(6,204 posts)
28. If any more benches are built
Sun Jun 30, 2013, 10:54 AM
Jun 2013

please, build them with covering to provide and misters to keep cool. (Can you tell I come from a southwest state )

edited for typo

muriel_volestrangler

(101,294 posts)
40. It looks like it was chosen about 1963
Sun Jun 30, 2013, 11:24 AM
Jun 2013
An international symbol for Atheism has long been needed. When American Atheists was formed in 1963, a contemporary scientific symbol was chosen; this acknowledges that only through the use of scientific analysis and free, open inquiry can humankind reach out for a better life.

http://atheists.org/about-us/logo


What is Atomic Cafe?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Atomic_Cafe
http://www.atomicafe.com/
http://www.atomiccafeky.com/

Which one?

TalkingDog

(9,001 posts)
31. Well, I'm not worried as long as this doesn't start happening. (again)
Sun Jun 30, 2013, 11:01 AM
Jun 2013
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/League_of_Militant_Atheists

A textbook produced by the LMG in 1934 admitted the existence of sincere believers among the intellectuals; however, Yaroslavsky in 1937 claimed that all scholars and scientists who believe in God were insincere deceivers and swindlers.[40]

The League trained a massive number of antireligious propagandists and other workers. This work included lecture cycles. The League of Militant Atheists attempted to "control and exploit the Proletarian Freethinkers," a group founded by socialists in 1925, in order to diminish the influence of religion, particularly Catholic Christianity, in Central and Eastern Europe.[44]

The League of Militant Atheists aided the Soviet government in killing clergy and committed believers.[45] The League also made it a priority to remove religious icons from the homes of believers.[46] Under the slogan, "the Storming of Heaven," the League of Militant Atheists pressed for "resolute action against religious peasants" leading to the mass arrest and exile of many believers, especially village priests. By 1940, "over 100 bishops, tens of thousands of Orthodox clergy, and thousands of monks and lay believers had been killed or had died in Soviet prisons and the Gulag."[47]

The LMG had reduced the number of religious communities of all faiths from 50,000 in 1930 to 30,000 by 1938 and 8,000 by 1941. The last figure includes, however, 7,000 communities in the annexed western territories (so that only 1,000 actually remained in the rest of the country).[48]

freshwest

(53,661 posts)
55. Eek! Root of conservative dogma on godless Russian Communism and Christian persecution.
Sun Jun 30, 2013, 12:12 PM
Jun 2013

1929 magazine cover showing muscular workers dumping Jesus with garbage

Thanks for this historical tidbit. All the Russians I know are Orthodox. They are highly educated and take their faith seriously, but believe in protecting all other faiths so long as they don't commit terrorist acts. From the Wikipedia page on the Russian Orthodox Church:

Under Communist rule

After the October Revolution of November 7, 1917, the officially proclaimed objective of the Soviet Union was to unite all of the people of the world in a communist state free of "capitalist exploitation" (see Communist International). With such a view of the world any ethnic heritage closely tied to traditional religion and its clergy was targeted by Soviet authorities.[18][19]

The Soviet Union was the first state to have elimination of religion as an ideological objective. Toward that end, the Communist regime confiscated church property, ridiculed religion, harassed believers, and propagated atheism in schools. Actions toward particular religions, however, were determined by State interests, and most organized religions were never outlawed. Orthodox priests and believers were variously tortured, sent to prison camps, labour camps or mental hospitals, and executed.[20][21] Many Orthodox (along with people of other faiths) were also subjected to psychological punishment or torture and mind control experimentation in order to force them give up their religious convictions.[22][23]

Thousands of churches and monasteries were taken over by the government and either destroyed or converted to secular use. It was impossible to build new churches. Practising Orthodox Christians were restricted from prominent careers and membership in communist organizations (the party, the Komsomol). Anti-religious propaganda was openly sponsored and encouraged by the government, which the Church was not given an opportunity to publicly respond to. The government youth organization, the Komsomol, encouraged its members to vandalize Orthodox Churches and harass worshippers. Seminaries were closed down, and the church was restricted from using the press.

The history of Orthodoxy (and other religions) under Communism was not limited to this story of repression and secularization. Bolshevik policies toward religious belief and practice tended to vacillate over time between, on the one hand, a utopian determination to substitute secular rationalism for what they considered to be an unmodern, "superstitious" worldview and, on the other, pragmatic acceptance of the tenaciousness of religious faith and institutions. In any case, religious beliefs and practices did persist, not only in the domestic and private spheres but also in the scattered public spaces allowed by a state that recognized its failure to eradicate religion and the political dangers of an unrelenting culture war.[24]

In November 1917, following the collapse of the tsarist government, a council of the Russian Orthodox church reestablished the patriarchate and elected the metropolitan Tikhon, the former Metropolitan of All America and Canada, as patriarch. But the new Soviet government soon declared the separation of church and state and also nationalized all church-held lands. These administrative measures were followed by brutal state-sanctioned persecutions that included the wholesale destruction of churches, as well as the arrest and execution of many clerics. The Russian Orthodox church was further weakened in 1922, when the Renovated Church, a reform movement supported by the Soviet government, seceded from Patriarch Tikhon's church (also see the Josephites and the Russian True Orthodox Church), restored a Holy Synod to power, and brought division among clergy and faithful.

In the first five years after the Bolshevik revolution, 28 bishops and 1,200 priests were executed.[25]

Stalin era

The main target of the anti-religious campaign in the 1920s and 1930s was the Russian Orthodox Church, which had the largest congregation. Nearly all of its clergy, and many of its believers, were shot or sent to labor camps. Theological schools were closed, and church publications were prohibited.

The sixth sector of the OGPU, led by Yevgeny Tuchkov, began aggressively arresting and executing bishops, priests, and devout worshippers, such as Metropolitan Veniamin in Petrograd in 1922 for refusing to accede to the demand to hand in church valuables (including sacred relics). In the time between 1927 and 1940, the number of Orthodox Churches in the Russian Republic fell from 29,584 to less than 500. Between 1917 and 1935, 130,000 Orthodox priests were arrested. Of these, 95,000 were put to death. Many thousands of victims of persecution became recognized in a special canon of saints known as the "new martyrs and confessors of Russia".

At no time before the mid to late 1930s did the Bolsheviks control the situation. They maintained that the clergy organized united resistance against the Soviet state. During the mid-1920s, Soviet officials in Nizhny Novgorod and other locations encountered religious groups successfully circulating anti-Soviet political materials. According to party officials, legal organizations served as fronts for oppositional activities.[26]

In January 1918 Patriarch Tikhon proclaimed anathema to the Bolsheviks (without explicitly naming them),[27] which further antagonized relations. When Tikhon died in 1925, Soviet authorities forbade patriarchal elections to be held. Patriarchal locum tenens (acting Patriarch) Metropolitan Sergius (Stragorodsky, 1887–1944), going against the opinion of a major part of the church's parishes, in 1927 issued a declaration accepting the Soviet authority over the church as legitimate, pledging the church's cooperation with the government and condemning political dissent within the church. By this declaration Sergius granted himself authority that he, being a deputy of imprisoned Metropolitan Peter and acting against his will, had no right to assume according to the XXXIV Apostolic canon, which led to a split with the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia abroad and the Russian True Orthodox Church (Russian Catacomb Church) within the Soviet Union, as they allegedly remained faithful to the Canons of the Apostles, declaring the part of the church led by Metropolitan Sergius schism, sometimes coined Sergianism. Due to this canonical disagreement it is disputed which church has been the legitimate successor to the Russian Orthodox Church that had existed before 1925.[28][29][30][31]

With aid from the Methodist Church, two Russian Orthodox seminaries were reopened.[32] Moreover, in the 1929 elections, the Orthodox Church attempted to formulate itself as a full-scale opposition group to the Communist Party, and attempted to run candidates of its own against the Communist candidates. Article 124 of the 1936 Soviet Constitution officially allowed for freedom of religion within the Soviet Union, and along with initial statements of it being a multi-candidate election, the Church again attempted to run its own religious candidates in the 1937 elections. However the support of multicandidate elections was retracted several months before the elections were held and in neither 1929 nor 1937 were any candidates of the Orthodox Church elected.[33]

After Nazi Germany's attack on the Soviet Union in 1941, Joseph Stalin revived the Russian Orthodox Church to intensify patriotic support for the war effort. On September 4, 1943, Metropolitans Sergius, Alexy and Nikolay had a meeting with Stalin and received a permission to convene a council on September 8, 1943, which elected Sergius Patriarch of Moscow and all the Rus'. This is considered by some as violation of the XXX Apostolic canon, as no church hierarch could be consecrated by secular authorities.[28] A new patriarch was elected, theological schools were opened, and thousands of churches began to function. The Moscow Theological Academy Seminary, which had been closed since 1918, was re-opened.

Between 1945 and 1959 the official organization of the church was greatly expanded, although individual members of the clergy were occasionally arrested and exiled. The number of open churches reached 25,000. By 1957 about 22,000 Russian Orthodox churches had become active. But in 1959 Nikita Khrushchev initiated his own campaign against the Russian Orthodox Church and forced the closure of about 12,000 churches. By 1985 fewer than 7,000 churches remained active. Members of the church hierarchy were jailed or forced out, their places taken by docile clergy, many of whom had ties with the KGB. This decline was evident from the dramatic decay of many of the abandoned churches and monasteries that were previously common in even the smallest villages from the pre-revolutionary period.


Persecution under Khrushchev and Brezhnev

A new and widespread persecution of the church was subsequently instituted under the leadership of Nikita Khrushchev and Leonid Brezhnev. A second round of repression, harassment and church closures took place between 1959 and 1964 when Nikita Khrushchev was in office.

The Church and the government remained on unfriendly terms until 1988. In practice, the most important aspect of this conflict was that openly religious people could not join the Communist Party of the Soviet Union, which meant that they could not hold any political office. However, among the general population, large numbers remained religious.

Some Orthodox believers and even priests took part in the dissident movement and became prisoners of conscience. The Orthodox priests Gleb Yakunin, Sergiy Zheludkov and others spent years in Soviet prisons and exile for their efforts in defending freedom of worship.[34] Among the prominent figures of that time were Father Dmitri Dudko[35] and Father Aleksandr Men. Although he tried to keep away from practical work of the dissident movement intending to better fulfil his calling as a priest, there was a spiritual link between Fr Aleksandr and many of the dissidents. For some of them he was a friend, for others - a godfather, for many (including Yakunin) - spiritual father.[36]

By 1987 the number of functioning churches in the Soviet Union had fallen to 6893 and the number of functioning monasteries to just 18. In 1987 in the Russian SFSR, between 40% and 50% of newborn babies (depending on the region) were baptized. Over 60% of all deceased received Christian funeral services.


Glasnost and evidence of KGB links

Beginning in the late 1980s, under Mikhail Gorbachev, the new political and social freedoms resulted in many church buildings being returned to the church, to be restored by local parishioners. A pivotal point in the history of the Russian Orthodox Church came in 1988 - the millennial anniversary of the Baptism of Kievan Rus'. Throughout the summer of that year, major government-supported celebrations took place in Moscow and other cities; many older churches and some monasteries were reopened. An implicit ban on religious propaganda on state TV was finally lifted. For the first time in the history of the Soviet Union, people could see live transmissions of church services on television.

Gleb Yakunin, a critic of the Moscow Patriarchate who was one of those who briefly gained access to the KGB archive documents in the early 1990s, argued that the Moscow Patriarchate was "practically a subsidiary, a sister company of the KGB".[37] Critics charge that the archives showed the extent of active participation of the top ROC hierarchs in the KGB efforts overseas.[38][39][40][41][42][43] George Trofimoff, the highest-ranking US military officer ever indicted for, and convicted of, espionage by the United States and sentenced to life imprisonment on September 27, 2001, had been "recruited into the service of the KGB"[44] by Igor Susemihl (a.k.a. Zuzemihl), a bishop in the Russian Orthodox Church (subsequently, a high-ranking hierarch - the ROC Metropolitan Iriney of Vienna, who died in July 1999[45]).

Konstanin Kharchev, former chairman of Soviet Council on Religious Affairs, explained: "Not a single candidate for the office of bishop or any other high-ranking office, much less a member of Holy Synod, went through without confirmation by the Central Committee of the CPSU and the KGB".[41] Professor Nathaniel Davis points out: "If the bishops wished to defend their people and survive in office, they had to collaborate to some degree with the KGB, with the commissioners of the Council for Religious Affairs, and with other party and governmental authorities.".[46] Patriarch Alexy II, acknowledged that compromises were made with the Soviet government by bishops of the Moscow Patriarchate, himself included, and publicly repented of these compromises... [47]


http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Russian_Orthodox_Church&printable=yes#Under_Communist_rule



The Straight Story

(48,121 posts)
36. If I saw that symbol on public land it would scare and intimidate me terribly
Sun Jun 30, 2013, 11:11 AM
Jun 2013

I don't think I could handle either the pain or message that I am worthless because I was not a member of a group I didn't want to belong too, I would cease thinking for myself, and join them.

Thankfully the government has saved me from ever having to see....oh wait, I am seeing it now without even leaving my house! And the government made the internet (and gives tax breaks to companies who run the cables/etc). Ahhhhhhh! My delicate mind is blown!

TroubleMan

(4,859 posts)
43. Although I'm not an Atheist, I'm a full supporter of their cause. Let's hope Atheism isn't exploited
Sun Jun 30, 2013, 11:42 AM
Jun 2013

by unscrupulous people for money and power.

Every single religion has been exploited at one time or another by bad people to accrue money, power, and/or control. Today I think it's more the rule than the exception.

If Atheism becomes a religion, with a symbol and a creed - then IMHO I think that defeats the whole point of being an Atheist. A full-blown religion comes with full-blown problems.

If I were an Atheist, I'd be worried about this. I'd be worried about the ideas I represent being used by bad people for war, money, power, and control. I don't think that's happening with Atheism now, but if you make a creed and a symbol - those are the first steps.

It then becomes just another symbol to blindly follow, another way for other people to tell you how to live your life.

ellenfl

(8,660 posts)
88. imo, organizing atheists would be akin to herding cats. as a lifelong atheist (60+ years),
Sun Jun 30, 2013, 01:14 PM
Jun 2013

my philosophy includes a rejection of the trappings of organized religion. i would not be inclined to 'join' such a gathering of atheists. i cannot imagine i am alone in this.

longship

(40,416 posts)
44. Title is absolute rubbish.
Sun Jun 30, 2013, 11:48 AM
Jun 2013

Yet another "atheism is just another religion" title.

The reason this plaque was put there in the first place is because of Republican religious assholes can't stop using legislative fiat and things like these silly Decalogue plaques on public property (along with the crosses and the Jesus statues and, and, and, and) in a blatant attempt to shove their smarmy fundamentalist religion down everybody's throat.

I prefer that the public commons be religion free places but failing that if religion gets to be there atheism will be there, too. Let the theists who would use the commons for purposes of proselytizing chew on that fact for a while.

Rob H.

(5,350 posts)
184. That's not the title that appears on HuffPo
Mon Jul 1, 2013, 01:10 PM
Jul 2013

The title there is "Atheists Unveil Monument Near Ten Commandments In Florida" but apparently that wasn't flamebaity enough for the OP.

Edited to add that atheist symbol has been around for decades, as most atheists know.

 

Apophis

(1,407 posts)
46. What's an atheist church? A university?
Sun Jun 30, 2013, 11:55 AM
Jun 2013


They've had that symbol for years now and it's quite obvious the point of the atheist plaque was missed by many here.

UTUSN

(70,671 posts)
47. As a secular humanist fully simpatico withatheism,turning it into a religion is jumping the shark nt
Sun Jun 30, 2013, 11:56 AM
Jun 2013

hootinholler

(26,449 posts)
54. Why are you making shit up?
Sun Jun 30, 2013, 12:11 PM
Jun 2013

To what purpose?

Your spin on this is flibberty jibberty writ large. Piss off.

alp227

(32,013 posts)
64. Shoddy article, but what else did you expect from huffington,
Sun Jun 30, 2013, 12:27 PM
Jun 2013

the liberal version of The Blaze or Daily Caller?

mainer

(12,022 posts)
72. I approve of the idea, but that symbol makes me think "radioactive"
Sun Jun 30, 2013, 12:42 PM
Jun 2013

I think the Darwin fish would have been more welcoming.

 

immoderate

(20,885 posts)
74. I would expect a DUer to know atheism is not a religion.
Sun Jun 30, 2013, 12:45 PM
Jun 2013

So you fail.

Interestingly, I know some of the people behind this movement. The general idea is that all monuments will be gone in two years, because that's when they have to be recertified.

--imm

Response to onehandle (Original post)

 

SCVDem

(5,103 posts)
81. I don't see Atheism as a religion
Sun Jun 30, 2013, 12:58 PM
Jun 2013

From the symbol I see a belief in the intelligence of mans abilities to move forward as shown by the atom. Progress free from the constraints of the bronze age beliefs.

Now like a Rorschach I also see a Star Trek communicator with the A in the middle.

I see a forward looking symbol for like minded people to recognize, and realize that intelligent communication is possible with those persons.

Atheism to me is a multi-faceted belief which looks to humankind's intelligence and that the best path forward is to the future, not holding on to the past.

I take the logical and realistic from history and place the rest in a museum.

I believe that people are inherently good and require no scare tactics to be so. Are the Koch Bros. religious?

I also don't see any monumental buildings to Atheism as per churches etc.

Todays religions collect money and hand out some. This may be relief but doesn't solve any problems.

I would rather pay homage to an institute which helps feed the world and solve our problems in a real sustainable way.

Rodenberry did get it right in the IDIC. Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations.

For example: Gay marriage. The religious right can't help but go straight to beastiality to back up their magical interpretations.

They make the case for Atheism.

We are alike because we are all unique.


Anyway, that's how I see it and I welcome differing opinions.

 

Arugula Latte

(50,566 posts)
85. All right, listen up, fellow Atheists, we're a religion now!
Sun Jun 30, 2013, 01:05 PM
Jun 2013

Okay, we're going to need a few things. First we need a storybook based on tales of yore from a primitive non-believing people -- nothing less than Bronze Age (or maaaaaybe early Iron Age) will do. Remember, we can quote from it to justify any position under the sun. We're going to need to start butting into peoples' personal lives more, and also going door to door to tell them why their beliefs are wrong. Also, our leader atheists are going to need some weird-ass clothing and funny medieval headgear, and we need to meet every week in a creepy musty building where we sing dreary songs together and have pot lucks where someone brings tater tot casserole. Come on, let's get on this!

 

SCVDem

(5,103 posts)
95. Unlimited Sex!
Sun Jun 30, 2013, 01:34 PM
Jun 2013

History shows that every religion needs to build their numbers. The Mormons did this with polygamy and others through strict laws concerning womens rights.

As Rodney Dangerfield famously said, "Hey everybody! We're going to get laid!"

 

Arugula Latte

(50,566 posts)
147. Yes indeed. Lots of sex, and also lots of MONEY.
Sun Jun 30, 2013, 05:00 PM
Jun 2013

Does anyone have any experience as a professional charlatan? Carnival barkers, used car salesmen, Amway people would be ideal for the mass fleecing we're going to have to do now that we're a religion.

Textex

(7 posts)
162. Amway Is A SCAM!!!
Mon Jul 1, 2013, 09:15 AM
Jul 2013

Amway doesn't have the ethics or morals to be inbusiness, it is a scam. For more information visit www.stoptheamwaytoolscam.wordpress.com and forward the link to every non-Distributor/IBO you know, so they don't get scammed.

 

LittleBlue

(10,362 posts)
92. I've been saying this for years
Sun Jun 30, 2013, 01:21 PM
Jun 2013

Atheists organzing is an abomination and leads to this. As an atheist, I'm appalled and claim no association with the Dawkins crowd or these fools.

 

Bradical79

(4,490 posts)
174. What's it lead to? Ugly benches?
Mon Jul 1, 2013, 10:47 AM
Jul 2013

Right wingers saying stupid shit online? Not sure organized atheists can take much credit in either area

 

LittleBlue

(10,362 posts)
175. You must have a working crystal ball
Mon Jul 1, 2013, 11:12 AM
Jul 2013

Because no one could say with any certainty where "this leads to" without one.

I say it leads toward organized religion, the formalizing of a belief structure within an organization. Hence the words on the back "atheists believe". They should not presume to form a set of beliefs for people they don't know, that's what theists do. They should not create icons or proselytize, theists do that.

These looneys should speak for themselves only.

DreamGypsy

(2,252 posts)
98. Sorry. The title of your post is bogus, or at least ignores history. The logo was chosen in 1963..
Sun Jun 30, 2013, 01:39 PM
Jun 2013

...by the American Atheists organization. It's fifty years too late to start accusing atheists of forming a 'religion' because they have a symbol.

Here's their discussion of their logo:

An international symbol for Atheism has long been needed. When American Atheists was formed in 1963, a contemporary scientific symbol was chosen; this acknowledges that only through the use of scientific analysis and free, open inquiry can humankind reach out for a better life.

Recognizing the new atomic era, but also emphasizing the truths of older scientific findings, the atomic whirl was chosen. The atom is still a distinguishing unit of all matter, the smallest particle of an element that can exist and still retain the properties of that element.

You may notice that one of the orbitals in our symbol is broken, or open-ended. This demonstrates that while Atheists rely on the scientific method for learning about the cosmos and increasing our knowledge about nature, we know that not all of the answers are in. We recognize that with new knowledge come new questions and areas for human inquiry and exploration.

That open orbital forms an "A" to represent Atheism.


Personally I would not have chosen a Bohr model image of the atom, since by 1963 quantum mechanics provided a very different view of the nature and likely physical structure of atomic orbitals:

In the quantum picture of Heisenberg, Schrödinger and others, the Bohr atom number n for each orbital became known as an n-sphere[citation needed] in a three dimensional atom and was pictured as the mean energy of the probability cloud of the electron's wave packet which surrounded the atom.

...where atoms would look more like this:



...than this:


DreamGypsy

(2,252 posts)
137. Ah, now I understand your point: the Sierra Club has been a religion...
Sun Jun 30, 2013, 04:03 PM
Jun 2013

...since 1892!! Who knew?? Other than you.



1892-1894: The first Sierra Club seal was created in 1892. It depicts a giant Sequoiadendron giganteum centered between the letters S and C. Below this is the Latin phrase Altiora Peto, meaning "I seek high places." Around and above the tree, motto, and letters was a circle with the words "Seal of the Sierra Club. Two five-pointed stars separated these words from "Incorporated 1892." This seal remained in use until 1894.




1894-1939: After much dissatisfaction with this first logo, alternatives were solicited in 1893. The Club adopted the second seal, designed by San Francisco architect Willis Polk, in Spring 1894. A less diagrammatic Sequoiadendron gigantea is in the foreground, with Yosemite's Half Dome behind it, and larger mountains in the distance.


...


1998-present: - At its July 1998 meeting, the Board adopted a new logo, modifying the Standing Rule to read as follows: The official design of the Sierra Club seal shall be the version designed in 1998 by John Bielenberg, depicting a Sequoiadendron giganteum and Half Dome with a mountain peak in the background, and with an elliptical border. The words "Sierra Club" and "Founded 1892" are underneath in Trajan type. An official reference copy of this design shall be maintained by the Executive Director at the Principal Office of the Club. Only this design may be used as the Sierra Club logo. No modifications of this logo or other designs shall be used in place of the above logo without specific approval of the Board of Directors or its designee.


I am hopeful the American Atheists will update their logo to reflect the current and future understanding of atomic orbital structure. However, given that the Department of Energy religion still has a Bohr atom, a 19th century oil well, and a windmill on its symbol, there is apparently a logo inertia to overcome.


patrice

(47,992 posts)
111. Good work, Athiests! Now, can someone tell this Christian what the open arc in the middle
Sun Jun 30, 2013, 02:11 PM
Jun 2013

symbolizes?

DreamGypsy

(2,252 posts)
140. Yes. The meaning of the open orbital in the symbolic atom is ...
Sun Jun 30, 2013, 04:07 PM
Jun 2013

From my earlier reply on this thread:

You may notice that one of the orbitals in our symbol is broken, or open-ended. This demonstrates that while Atheists rely on the scientific method for learning about the cosmos and increasing our knowledge about nature, we know that not all of the answers are in. We recognize that with new knowledge come new questions and areas for human inquiry and exploration.

Deep13

(39,154 posts)
112. Is this a religious symbol:
Sun Jun 30, 2013, 02:15 PM
Jun 2013
? Is the DNC headquarters a church?

People form non-sectarian organizations with symbols all the time.
 

mick063

(2,424 posts)
115. Not sure I like the concept
Sun Jun 30, 2013, 02:22 PM
Jun 2013

Will the "tit for tat" evolve into fanatical Atheist fundamentalism?

No doubt, it is the extremism of the religious right that has done them more harm than good. Extremism defined by imposing their will on the rest of the population. Before Jerry Falwell, folks were more secular in the political arena (for the most part).

So what happens fifty years from now? The new Atheist "religion" evolves in to the very thing they despise most by imposing their will on the rest of the nation?

It boils down to the human element. Devise any organization, religion, government, or cooperative with well intended perfection and watch it become a monster by a handful of corrupt and/or fanatical people.

Not against the monument. Not against the Atheist movement. I am agnostic. How many people, in world history, have died in the name of god? I just fear it's potential to become like all the rest.

MellowDem

(5,018 posts)
124. Your OP is bullshit trolling
Sun Jun 30, 2013, 03:01 PM
Jun 2013

Some atheists have formed political interest groups, like this one, that goes beyond mere atheism and promotes the separation of church and state. It is a simple distinction, unless you like to use well-worn conservative talking points to attack atheists.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
132. It's important to note that they did this in response to losing
Sun Jun 30, 2013, 03:51 PM
Jun 2013

a court case to have the ten commandments taken down from a public space.

I think they are making a point, and I think it's a good one.

If the courts won't recognize what appears to be clear violations of church/state separation issues, then turn around makes a strong and valid point.

 

Arugula Latte

(50,566 posts)
182. Yes. They also meet regularly in *gasp* BUILDINGS. Therefore, they're churches. QED.
Mon Jul 1, 2013, 12:50 PM
Jul 2013

Actually, let's not give corporations any ideas. They'll stop paying what little taxes they pay now.

Politicub

(12,165 posts)
151. Yay America!
Sun Jun 30, 2013, 05:18 PM
Jun 2013

One of the best things about our country is the potential to invent and reinvent yourself.

If this group if atheists feel passionate enough to do this, then more power to them. I like how the symbol offers a degree of balance and will cause many to have a conversation about non-belief.

Cool.

intaglio

(8,170 posts)
152. Not this ... f'n nonsense ... again
Sun Jun 30, 2013, 05:30 PM
Jun 2013

You might as well say that Mickie D's is trying to become a religion

Or the United Nations

Or the British Humanist Association.

Atheists do not venerate that symbol, nor do they use it as an object to focus prayer, nor yet as a symbol of anything more than the particular group who have adopted it.

 

Snotcicles

(9,089 posts)
154. I think it should have this quote/question from Antonio Porchia.
Sun Jun 30, 2013, 06:35 PM
Jun 2013

Would there be this eternal seeking if the found existed?

 

Jenoch

(7,720 posts)
157. It looks like it came right out of the
Sun Jun 30, 2013, 06:52 PM
Jun 2013

Jetsons. Is that a company logo for a competitor to Spacely's Sprockets?

 

bravenak

(34,648 posts)
161. Just a corporatist logo. Not a religious symbol.
Mon Jul 1, 2013, 06:54 AM
Jul 2013

And they don't worship. They discuss whatever they want.

malaise

(268,846 posts)
168. I am an atheist and I have serious problems with this
Mon Jul 1, 2013, 10:23 AM
Jul 2013

Atheists do not believe in any religion. We worship nothing.

frogmarch

(12,153 posts)
172. "Inching Toward
Mon Jul 1, 2013, 10:38 AM
Jul 2013

Becoming a Full Blown Religion"?

What utter crap. Atheism isn't a religion, and the atheist symbol isn't a religious symbol. How can any reasonably intelligent person think otherwise?

WovenGems

(776 posts)
176. To quote
Mon Jul 1, 2013, 11:17 AM
Jul 2013

Bill Maher "atheism is a religion like abstinences is a sex position".
And that about sums it up.

A HERETIC I AM

(24,365 posts)
179. I drove right by this courthouse two hours ago....
Mon Jul 1, 2013, 11:52 AM
Jul 2013

It fronts US 301 right in front of the courthouse building. The bench is close to the street with the Decalogue monument behind, closer to the courthouse.


There was not one single person in the courtyard. Not one.

The replies in this thread that try and define Atheism make me smile.

Here's mine, and I borrow from many others before me;

I do not lack a belief in god, nor do I "believe" no gods exist. I KNOW gods are inherently mythical constructs, just as I know I shall never see a Unicorn, a pixie, a Faerie, a Leprechaun or any number of other mythical entities. Followers of the Abrahamic faiths reject belief in the thousands of other gods held as true by civilizations large and small thruout history. I just simply reject one more god than they do.

I read a great line just recently. If your god is all knowing, then he knows why I reject the idea of his existence. If he is all powerful, then he has the ability to show me why I am wrong. If he is all loving and has not done the former, then he just doesn't give a damn and is therefore unworthy of my attention.

Orrex

(63,189 posts)
180. Until that stupid symbol scares away vampires, I ain't buying it.
Mon Jul 1, 2013, 12:21 PM
Jul 2013

Upon further reflection, it occurs to me that this symbol is every bit as dim-witted as the attempt to have atheists referred to as "Brights' a few years ago.

haele

(12,645 posts)
187. Don't like it.. Should be a blank block of granite.
Mon Jul 1, 2013, 03:13 PM
Jul 2013

Looks too much like my old Navy rating badge for me to take seriously, anyway.
(Look up Data systems Technician)

Haele
Latest Discussions»General Discussion»Inching Towards Becoming ...