We are in deep shit with our European allies.

[cali]

Now you can blame this entirely on Snowden, but maybe, just maybe, we shouldn't be conducting these sweeping spy operations.

U.S. taps half-billion German phone, internet links in month: report

he United States taps half a billion phone calls, emails and text messages in Germany in a typical month and has classed its biggest European ally as a target similar to China, according to secret U.S. documents quoted by a German newsmagazine.

The revelations of alleged U.S. surveillance programs based on documents taken by fugitive former National Security Agency contractor Edward Snowden have raised a political furor in the United States and abroad over the balance between privacy rights and national security.


Exposing the latest details in a string of reputed spying programs, Der Spiegel quoted from an internal NSA document which it said its reporters had seen.

The document Spiegel cited showed that the United States categorized Germany as a "third-class" partner and that surveillance there was stronger than in any other EU country, similar in extent to China, Iraq or Saudi-Arabia.

<snip>

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/06/30/us-usa-germany-spying-idUSBRE95T04B20130630

Germany Compares Reported US Bugging to 'Cold War'

A top German official accused the United States on Sunday of using "Cold War" methods against its allies, after a German magazine cited secret intelligence documents to claim that U.S. spies bugged European Union offices.

Justice Minister Sabine Leutheusser-Schnarrenberger was responding to a report by German news weekly Der Spiegel, which claimed that the U.S. National Security Agency eavesdropped on EU offices in Washington, New York and Brussels. The magazine cited classified U.S. documents taken by former NSA contractor Edward Snowden that it said it had partly seen.

"If the media reports are accurate, then this recalls the methods used by enemies during the Cold War," Leutheusser-Schnarrenberger said in a statement to The Associated Press.

"It is beyond comprehension that our friends in the United States see Europeans as enemies," she said, calling for an "immediate and comprehensive" response from the U.S. government to the claims.

<snip>

http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/wireStory/germany-compares-reported-us-bugging-cold-war-19535635#.UdA3Tdisp7k

European officials lash out at new NSA spying report

<snip>

"I am deeply worried and shocked about the allegations," European Parliament President Martin Schulz said in a statement, according to CNN. "If the allegations prove to be true, it would be an extremely serious matter which will have a severe impact on EU-US relations. On behalf of the European Parliament, I demand full clarification and require further information speedily from the U.S. authorities with regard to these allegations."

The revelations come at a particularly sensitive time for U.S.-E.U. relations, as long-awaited talks about a new trade pact are scheduled to begin next week. It is unclear how the latest report on NSA spying are going to affect them, but the trade pact has been a centerpiece of the Obama administrations diplomatic efforts in Europe for some time.

According to Der Spiegel, the NSA planted bugs in the EU's diplomatic offices in Washington and infiltrated the building's computer network. Similar measures were taken at the EU's mission to the United Nations in New York, the magazine said.

<snip>

During a trip through Europe two weeks ago, President Obama assured an audience in Germany that America is not indiscriminately "rifling" through the emails of ordinary European citizens, describing the National Security Agency's surveillance programs as a "circumscribed" system that has averted threats in America, Germany, and elsewhere.

<snip>'

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-202_162-57591678/european-officials-lash-out-at-new-nsa-spying-report/

[reformist2]

1. How sad that the EU has more power to influence US spy programs than American citizens.

Having said that, more power to the EU!

[Buzz Clik]

2. It's a big PR game. We tap them, they tap us. They act outraged, we promise to be nice.

Nothing changes.

[Democracyinkind]

4. When did the EU systematically target US gov installations?

I missed that story.

[Buzz Clik]

5. And you hinestly believe that the US tapped German lines without knowledge of the Germans?

Are you that naive?

[Democracyinkind]

9. That's what the story says.

If the US was interested in German data, they could send legal requests, as the Germans have that nice little thing called Vorratsdatenspecherung.

Just to be clear... This is the story...

Aus einer vertraulichen Klassifizierung geht hervor, dass die NSA die Bundesrepublik zwar als Partner, zugleich aber auch als Angriffsziel betrachtet. Demnach gehört Deutschland zu den sogenannten Partnern dritter Klasse. Ausdrücklich ausgenommen von Spionageattacken sind nur Kanada, Australien, Großbritannien und Neuseeland, die als zweite Kategorie geführt werden. "Wir können die Signale der meisten ausländischen Partner dritter Klasse angreifen - und tun dies auch", heißt es in einer Präsentation.

http://www.spiegel.de/netzwelt/netzpolitik/nsa-ueberwacht-500-millionen-verbindungen-in-deutschland-a-908517.html

Germany is a "third class partner" - wich means that it is tapped without the knowledge of the gov. That's the story.

Are you that dense?

[Buzz Clik]

11. "Are you that dense?" Typical.

[Democracyinkind]

13. I see you didn't answer my post.

"Are you that dense" was a childish reaction to your "Are you that naive".

[nineteen50]

51. This is a great way to deflect your responsibility

by attacking another to hide your involvement.

[JDPriestly]

89. We have troops stationed in a number of places in Germany.

We are greeted as friends, best friends in Germany. No country is more favorable to us than Germany. In my opinion, not even the British are as friendly and pro-America as the Germans. That's just my impression from having lived in these Germany and Britain.

Is this because of the many guest workers in Germany?

What is behind this?

Is it because East Germans are now part of Germany?

[brush]

54. Even if the US did tap German lines . . .

. . . without knowledge of the German government, does anyone believe that Germany doesn't do their own espionage on us?

All governments that have the wherewithal would, IMHO, be derelict in it's duty towards it's own citizens if it's not in some way keeping tabs on what other countries are up to.

[Lordquinton]

91. Everyone spies on everyone

It's like a party game, everyone is staring at whoever is not paying attention, but when they look at you you have to look away or else you get tickled. Except in this case "tickled" means "international incident"

[brush]

95. Exactly. If you're not spying you're not trying. nt

[Lordquinton]

100. Unfortunately we got caught

so now we have to say we're sorry and sit in the mushpot.

[brush]

109. Yep! That's how it works.

[Pachamama]

59. I honestly believe that the German Government had no knowledge, nor gave any permission

As someone who grew up in Germany and with friends and family there and an understanding of German society, I can assure you there is no way the German govt approved or knew this. If they did, they would be tarred and feathered and run out of Germany for it. Germans highly value their privacy and regulations are very strict and people take it seriously, far more seriously than Americans. When I worked there for a large American corporation, we were highly restricted in the collection and handling of customer information & data and how we could use it. Ways that US companies use consumer data to market and sell could most of time not be done without violating strict German laws.

After speaking to friends and family the last month about Edward Snowdens revelations about what the US was doing, they were all outraged and disgusted. Those who really think Obama is great expressed shock and disappointment and said if he is supporting this he isnt what they thought.

I assure you, that the German Govt didnt approve this or have knowledge and if someone in Merkel's govt knew, then she and her party will soon be gone.....

[Buzz Clik]

68. Yeah, well, a lot of people are shocked the US is capable of it, too.

Ignorance of an activity is no evidence that it does or does not exist.

In my view, the likelihood the Germans -- and every other EU nation -- is doing at least a little of this is far greater than the likelihood that they are not.

[flamingdem]

72. Plus, the reason the German leadership denies this is to avoid the ire of the citizens

doesn't mean they didn't know. They were caught up in concerns about terrorism as well.

[Recursion]

14. Do you mean the EU literally, or will member states do?

I can think of several times member states have.

[Democracyinkind]

16. Please post. As I said, I must have missed those stories.

[Recursion]

19. Google "Groupe Bull" (spelling fixed) for a starter

I'll go dig up the rest; some professor at Michigan (I think) has a big list of all avowed foreign surveillance on the US

EDIT: fixed the spelling

[muriel_volestrangler]

110. And? It's a French computer company

Even when you add 'spy' to it, you find that it is accused of selling spyware to Gaddafi, who used it on his own people.

When do you think Groupe Bull spied on the US government?

[usGovOwesUs3Trillion]

25. That is what the minority refuse to acknowledge the unprecedented scope, and suspicionless nature

This is a huge deal to everyone else, but them...

[jeff47]

76. You missed it because nobody covers it.

And the details are usually classified, making it harder to cover.

But if you'd like an example, here's France's intelligence agencies stealing US tech to give to French companies.

[gholtron]

77. The reason you didn't hear about it is

BECAUSE THEY DON'T HAVE A FUCKING TRAITOR THAT RATTED THEM OUT

[cali]

7. I think this is a pretty serious sitiuation. We'll see how it sugars off.

[Kolesar]

8. False outrage by Leutheusser-Schnarrenberger

"It is beyond comprehension that our friends in the United States see Europeans as enemies,"

"As enemies" -- way into hyperbole. You are just talking to the people who can vote for you.

[Democracyinkind]

10. Not enemies. The official designation is "third class partners"

Which means as much as "well pretend that you're an ally but well spy on you anyway".

Only Canada, Great Britain and New Zeeland are exempt from this kind of shit. They're the only ones not targeted in this way.

Edit: Australia too.

[Recursion]

15. New Zealand and the UK have both spied on us in the past two decades

I assume Canada has too, and just wasn't caught.

[Democracyinkind]

17. Then it's ironic that we give them preferred status.

Let's spy on them too!

[Recursion]

21. Every country, and I mean *every* country, puts intel assets in their embassies. Period.

It's how the game works.

[Democracyinkind]

22. Is this story about implanting intel assets in embassies?

Not what I quoted.

[Recursion]

23. Taps don't work without them

What do you think intel assets in embassies are doing?

[Democracyinkind]

26. I absolutely agree that all nations implant agents in their embassies.

I am trying to understand the "they are doing it too" argument, as it pertains to this:

Demnach wurden nicht nur Wanzen in dem Gebäude im Zentrum der US-Hauptstadt installiert, sondern auch das interne Computernetzwerk wurde infiltriert. Auf diese Weise bekommen die Amerikaner nicht nur Zugang zu Besprechungen in den Räumlichkeiten der EU, sondern auch zu E-Mails und internen Dokumenten auf den Computern.

http://www.spiegel.de/netzwelt/netzpolitik/nsa-hat-wanzen-in-eu-gebaeuden-installiert-a-908515.html

I would like to see evidence that the EU did the same in the US, as this is the claim made in this thread. (not sure if you made it too.)

I think there is an english version of the Spiegel that has all these stories. I have to find them first.

[Buns_of_Fire]

37. Here's a translation (via Chrome) of the first four paragraphs.

Not too bad, for a machine translation. I left it exactly as Chrome translated it. The second paragraph is the one cited in the above post.

Hamburg - The U.S. National Security Agency ( NSA ) not only monitors the communication of European citizens, but apparently peeking also targeted the EU building. This is clear from secret documents that the whistleblower Edward Snowden owns and Der Spiegel could see in parts. In a "top secret" classified NSA paper in September 2010 describes how the intelligence attacked the EU's diplomatic representation in Washington.

Thus, not only bugs were installed in the building in the U.S. capital, but also the internal computer network was infiltrated. In this way, the Americans not only get access to meetings at the premises of the EU , but also to e-mails and internal documents on the computers.

The attack on the EU institutions is a further level of Spähaktivitäten the NSA. For weeks diving details about Prism , and other monitoring programs that the whistleblower Snowden has assembled. The British intelligence agency GCHQ will therefore result in a similar program called tenses, with the world's telephone and Internet connections to be monitored .

According to the documents, which SPIEGEL has read, the EU representation has been attacked in like manner as those in Washington at the United Nations. In the NSA document of September 2010, the Europeans are expressly named as an attack target.

[Kolesar]

20. Ms. Leutheusser-Schnarrenberger used the term "enemies"

You did frame the context of the story, though.

[Buzz Clik]

32. Bingo.

[caseymoz]

67. But those are the citizens we've been spying on.

The US spying isn't aimed at governments. The European governments know that, unlike Americans, their citizens won't stand for this.

This is a major international scandal, and US can only lose, lose economically as the rest of the world rebuilds the Internet and Telecom architecture to cut the US out.

[jeff47]

84. And their spying isn't aimed at the government either.

There's no need to spy on the US government to figure out what it's doing. Our politicians scream that from the mountaintop.

Most EU spying on the US is for industrial espionage. There's all sorts of restrictions on the US government about handing secret technology to companies, so we don't do much industrial espionage.

The next most common reason for spying is for law enforcement. The UK spied on an awful lot of regular US citizens in the Boston area to track IRA funding, for example.

[reformist2]

30. I don't think our relations with the EU are anywhere near as close as they are with the UK...

[caseymoz]

66. If they rebuild the Internet and Telecoms

. . . to cut the US out of the loop so as to avoid surveillance on their citizens, then we are economically screwed, whether we're closer to the Brits are not.

[PufPuf23]

33. Sychophantics is a way of life. N'est pas? nt

[Buzz Clik]

69. You know what's funny about your comment ....

Someone here recently said, "You can't swing a dead cat without hitting a complete asshole." Profound, no?

[PufPuf23]

94. I agree that our posts are not particularly note worthy.

We both state the obvious.

Where we differ is what we find acceptable and will defend.

I have higher hopes and standards.

Between the dead cats and assholes, DU can get quite putrid.

[caseymoz]

64. But these were aimed at civilians!

That's the problem. The Europeans actually have a higher standard for privacy than the US citizens, and without a Fourth and Fifth Amendment. What's wrong with that picture?

[Buzz Clik]

71. What's wrong with this picture is you're conflating the people with their government.

We value privacy, but our government does not respect that. Our government is the only one like that?

[caseymoz]

80. In the growing government incursion on rights . . .

. . . especially against the 4th Amendment, I haven't noticed much general outrage, and I've seen many people-- even here-- who have quickly justified it or have argued that it's a necessity. So far in any protest against these incursions, the debate has been dominated by the ones who it would automatically bother the most: the paranoid. And it's been only part of a movement like the militias or the Sovereign Citizens.

I mean, why did citizens ever tolerate keeping the NSA and the CIA after the Cold War? I'm not arguing against intelligence, but the cynical, cutthroat tactics of those two agencies alone had outraged so much of the world that they could only be justified by a worldwide, existential struggle.

More than that, how could we have allowed the War on Drugs especially-- asset forfeiture-- without taking to the streets or general strikes? The Patriot Act didn't happen over night. We were accustomed to a cynical disregard for our rights long before it was codified. It seemed like more business as usual. Torture? How was it really unacceptable after what we had allowed local police forces to do.

Even now, maybe discontent is growing, but outrage over this and appropriate protests are long overdue for a citizenry who purportedly believes in freedom.

[Buzz Clik]

88. If you have not seen outrage over this, you have not been paying attention.

[caseymoz]

96. I think we differ on what we mean by outrage.

I mean action like mass protests and general strikes. I don't mean just talk. I'm talking about at least shutting down the economy of areas so that grievances can't be ignored. You have to at least kick the one percent in their GDP's so they can't disregard us.

[BeyondGeography]

3. Something tells me life will go on

[Buzz Clik]

6. +1

[treestar]

36. This ^^^^

And it's not as if they don't need/rely on us a great deal, too. They can't afford to be too hurt over it.

[whatchamacallit]

49. All moral relativism, no principles

Kinda sad...

[Buzz Clik]

73. Keep that label maker working overtime. It's better than not having a hobby at all.

[treestar]

83. That's what life is like

the morally pure are in churches and they can't seem to get their morality enacted into law the rest are forced to follow either.

[whatchamacallit]

85. Well if you prefer a world were the guiding principle is

we fuck them because they (might) fuck us, have at it. :/

[treestar]

87. You have to in order to survive

There's no way you can just trust everyone. And the funny thing is, you won't trust anyone in a position of authority. Thus you are already sure that anyone who gains that position will abuse it.

[whatchamacallit]

90. Like the current administration?

[Logical]

112. Let me phrase what you are saying "They need us, so FUCK THEM!!". Sound correct? n-t

[treestar]

113. No it sounds like they need us so they aren't going to

be as hateful to us as you'd like them to be.

[tridim]

52. But poutrage is more fun than life!

The lives of the eternally poutraged will also go on, they'll just never admit it.

[wtmusic]

57. Baaaaaahhhhh

[morningfog]

74. That could be the childish response to every story ever published.

Totally devoid of any meaning.

[cali]

92. and where was it suggested that it wouldn't?

but if you think this isn't an issue in our relationship with Europe, you need to pay closer attention to both history and the current situation.

[sibelian]

105. ... and whether or not you like it that way is another matter.

[Democracyinkind]

12. I would be interested to see evidence that the EU systematically targeted US gov installations

Or I'll have trouble buying the recyprocity argument...

edit: Funny how the list of people ignoring me just jumped by 5. inconvenient, much?

[Katashi_itto]

35. +1

[jeff47]

78. Why do you think they'd only spy on the US gov?

Most European spying is against US industry, in order to hand US tech to their country's companies.

Our politicians scream their plans from the mountaintop. You don't need to spy to figure out what our government is going to do.

[NRaleighLiberal]

18. my guess - there is big, big money in all of this shit, both sides, all sides- on one hand, I am not

sure what to think. On the other hand, I think it is all, and always, about money and power. And the vast majority of us just get played.

[leftstreet]

27. +1

[Bluenorthwest]

29. It is all about stealing and profit making, not security and safety

The proponents of this crap here on DU are mostly employed or their spouses are employed by the Security Industrial Complex. Ask them.

[grasswire]

103. money and power with ZERO oversight or regulation

It's a freaking intel ATM with no limits on withdrawals, right from your pocket and mine.

Secret courts. Secret budgets. Secret programs. Secret contractors.

A director more powerful than POTUS, with his own military forces even.

[JackN415]

24. This is plainly wrong, Snowden story has nothing to do with this. We shouldn't spy on allies.

[cantbeserious]

28. Just Like We Should Not Spy On Our Own Citizens

eom

[JackN415]

38. It wasn't spying on citizen for private info.It was meta data for pattern recognition. Not the same

[cantbeserious]

40. Calling It What You Will - Spying Is Spying

eom

[JackN415]

42. like "living" is "living". Simple words do not reveal/solve problems. That's for the dark age. eom.

[cantbeserious]

43. Well Like The Dark Ages - Maybe Some Don't Have The Vision To See What Is Going On In the World

eom

[wtmusic]

65. That's the NSA's take on it, anyway.

When the Wiretap Act was created it made sense to only require a subpoena to get "metadata". It simply wasn't intrusive. Who's going to have the resources to match phone numbers for millions of people with their identities and calling habits?

Nowadays, that's a task that takes seconds to accomplish. Child's play.

[jeff47]

79. And when those allies spy on us?

Everyone is spying on everyone. Ally or not.

The EU countries spy on the US. The US spies on EU countries. When the spying becomes public, one side will feign outrage, and the other will feign apology. Then they get back to spying on each other.

Why?

Well, the most common reason EU countries spy on the US is for industrial espionage - stealing US company secrets to give to EU companies. The US has rules that generally forbid the government handing technology secrets to companies, so we don't do much industrial espionage.

After that, the next most common reason for spying is trying to track supporters of terrorist or other dissidents that cause domestic problems. For example, the UK did a lot of spying around Boston to track the supporters of the IRA.

EU countries don't need to spy on the US to figure out what our government is doing. Our politicians scream that from the mountaintop.

[Zorra]

31. I'm so sick of my country being the world police agency protecting and serving the 1%. nt

[UTUSN]

34. On the "bright" side, Russia is thrilled & producing t.v. "news" shows about its newfound role as

a repository for human rights!1 Who KNEW?!1 It's just a FESTIVAL!1


As for one of the posts (above) saying that allies shouldn't spy on allies, uh... GREENWALD/SNOWDEN are to civil liberties as the Unabomber is to environmental issues. Or, Nic CAGE is to acting as the Olive Garden is to Italian cuisine.


Let the name-calling BEGIN!1 As GREENWALD just said, pinning labels on those who disagree is an ad hominem way of attempting to diminish without considering content (paraphrase). He was talking about himself being labeled/ad hominemed, but I'm co-opting it.


ON EDIT: Here's the exact quote, my point being that HIS/Greenwald's fans here have flung the label technique at us who disagree, the ones who call us "Authoritarian."

*********QUOTE********

http://ggsidedocs.blogspot.com.br/2013/01/frequently-told-lies-ftls.html

[font size=5]"Frequently Told Lies (FTLs)[/font]

by Glenn GREENWALD

.... I'm a right-wing libertarian
Ever since I began writing about politics back in 2005, people have tried to apply pretty much every political [FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: yellow"]label[/FONT] to me. It’s almost always [FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: yellow"]a shorthand method to discredit someone without having to engage the substance[/FONT] of their arguments. It’s the classic [FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: yellow"]ad hominem[/FONT] fallacy: you don’t need to listen to or deal with his arguments because he’s an X. ...."

**********UNQUOTE**********

[DeSwiss]

41. ''Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice!''

- Right? Aw geeze....

[UTUSN]

44. Ah, the "early AuH2O" label. Yeah, on a lifelong Dem. We'll DO IT LIVE!1

Last edited Sun Jun 30, 2013, 01:30 PM - Edit history (1)

Let's see, repeating:


*********QUOTE********

http://ggsidedocs.blogspot.com.br/2013/01/frequently-told-lies-ftls.html

[font size=5]"Frequently Told Lies (FTLs)[/font]

by Glenn GREENWALD

.... I'm a right-wing libertarian
Ever since I began writing about politics back in 2005, people have tried to apply pretty much every political [FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: yellow"]label[/FONT] to me. It’s almost always [FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: yellow"]a shorthand method to discredit someone without having to engage the substance[/FONT] of their arguments. It’s the classic [FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: yellow"]ad hominem[/FONT] fallacy: you don’t need to listen to or deal with his arguments because he’s an X. ...."

**********UNQUOTE**********

[DeSwiss]

45. Oddly.....

...as you were replying to my post, I was replying to another.

- Saying the same thing as Glenn. Now how spooky is that?

[UTUSN]

48. Well, thanks for steering me to the full GREENWALD article I couldn't find. And I'm not sure

you and I are clear about each other's position, where in that post you toss out a slur about "people who lack principles". Allow me to be transparent: My take is wholly personal about SNOWDEN/GREENWALD, *not* a defense of nefarious government. My intuition (which has been correct a very lot over scores of years) is that there is something rotten about those two, their methods, their motives. All the ironies (I won't rehearse them here, AGAIN) are even hilarious, except for the mysterious RAGE in GREENWALD. As to the "CONTENT" of the "revelations" - it will have to be sorted out over time, as will the VALUE and the DAMAGE of it.

[marions ghost]

108. Russia might as well take up the banner of human rights

--it's meaningless in America anymore.

[UTUSN]

114. AHHHHhhhhhhh!1 Thanks for that. n/t

[CanonRay]

39. If all this nixes yet another assinine "fair trade" deal

so much the better. We've fair traded ourselves right into poverty IMHO

[Buns_of_Fire]

46. If the NSA wants to help, bug the offices of the TPP negotiators.

At least we might have a heads-up on how badly we're going to get hosed THIS time.

[nineteen50]

47. In order to stop the beast you must

face the beast.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

50. Ingrates! They don't appreciate that our spying on them is really a mark of respect and friendship.

[Quantess]

53. It's a sign of caring.

Spying on them only means we think they're really cool.

[robinlynne]

55. good.

[wtmusic]

56. No one can blame this on Snowden.

That's like blaming MLK for the riots following his "I Have a Dream" speech.

[vdogg]

58. Dear God

I hope you didn't just compare Snowden to MLK. Nothing even remotely similar between them or their situations, nothing at all.

[wtmusic]

62. They both put themselves in extreme danger what what they believed in

Snowden will be either assassinated, jailed, or hounded for the rest of his life. If you feel that's insignificant, please share your sacrifices for comparative purposes.

[jeff47]

86. I look forward to future posts equating Snowden to Jesus

Ya know, Pol Pot, Eric Rudolph and bin Laden put themselves in extreme danger for what they believed in. I think you might want to re-evaluate that as your metric for greatness.

[wtmusic]

101. Obviously your self-sacrifices outshine all.

Pray, fill us in. Or remain irrelevant.

[jeff47]

115. I'm happily irrelevant. But attacking me doesn't solve your problem

Where your criteria for greatness includes history's greatest monsters.

[wtmusic]

120. Comparing Snowden to Pol Pot? That's rich.

Should we be looking for mass graves in Hawaii?

[jeff47]

121. It's your criteria for greatness.

Again, you may want to reconsider such a broad criteria.

[vdogg]

60. Sure am Glad

We have Edward Snowden to look out for us and our interests. Damaging ties with our allies possibly resulting in diplomatic and economic consequences is truly American. I can't wait for him to release more info on foreign spying operations for the good of the people. I trust in the wisdom of Edward Snowden that he knows what's best for us.

[wtmusic]

63. You should be.

[WillyT]

61. K & R !!!

[dkf]

70. Al Qaeda my ass.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

75. And, our government is digging itself deeper into the shit.

[jeff47]

82. What, your previous reply to the same thread wasn't getting enough attention?

The US spies on the EU. And the EU spies on the US.

When one side "discovers" that this is going on, they feign outrage. The other side feigns an apology. Then they get back to spying on each other.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

99. Tsk. Tsk. Two replies to one OP! The horror.

[jeff47]

116. Well, there is an unlimited supply of characters for a single post.

Why not use them?

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

117. God made time so everything wouldn't happen at once.

So, if the deity can take time to do things, I reckon we can too.

[Pirate Smile]

81. Snowden keeps proving he's not about revealing domestic surveillance.

[Galraedia]

107. Nope. He's just trying to make his anti-government libertarian friends happy...

by stirring up anti-American sentiment.

[Enthusiast]

93. They just want their pony!

Who wouldn't want to live in a pony country?

"He was a beautiful pony and I love him."

[Catherina]

97. You reap what you sow. The fallout will be from our attitude towards the world, not Snowden n/t

[nadinbrzezinski]

98. Yup we are.

Some might be rethinking the value of the alliance and that R word must be at tip of tongues, not republican, rogue

[cantbeserious]

102. Link To New PRISM Details From The Washington Post - How The NSA Collects The Data

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/special/politics/prism-collection-documents/

And Related article.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/us-intelligence-mining-data-from-nine-us-internet-companies-in-broad-secret-program/2013/06/06/3a0c0da8-cebf-11e2-8845-d970ccb04497_story.html

[Democracyinkind]

104. Still waiting for proof of the EU bugging USgov offices.

Reciprocity my ass...

[sibelian]

106. All they have to do is assert it.

It sounds plausible and that's good enough.

[Liberal_in_LA]

111. +1

[JI7]

118. it's really not that big a thing at all

[blackspade]

119. Many in the US are just as pissed as they are.

[roamer65]

122. Just wait till we get to the part about manipulation of friendly governments.