Our 30 lb. poodle mix just survived an attack on a hiking trail

[pnwmom]

Last edited Sun Jun 30, 2013, 06:17 PM - Edit history (2)

by a pair of larger dogs -- one that looked like a German Shepherd, and the other like a pit bull.

Both dogs came running at our little dog -- who was a few feet away from my son -- but the owners were able to call the Shepherd back. My son had to kick the attacking pit bull off our dog, and then he left the owners with the shepherd while he went chasing after the pit and our dog, who had run away in terror. Fortunately, our dog is an olympic level runner, and she left the pit in the dust.

My son realized as he was carrying our shaking dog down the trail that he had blood on his hands from our dog's wound. He's on his way to the 24 Animal Hospital now. Unfortunately, he didn't realize she was bitten till the other owners had disappeared.

Ironically, our dog and our son were probably safer today because she wasn't being restrained on a leash. If my son had been trying to keep her restrained, she still would have been at the mercy of the pit, and my son probably would have had to intervene again. Instead, she ran.

The other dog owners had been out hiking with three dogs, by the way -- clearly too much for them to handle.


Dog owners: don't let your dog off leash unless you KNOW that dog isn't aggressive and you KNOW that he is under voice control.

My son had a machete attached to his backpack for cutting back brush, but he could have used it on a dog if he'd had to.

P.S. She's out of surgery now. I just talked to the vet. She said it was a serious bite wound with "lots of ripping and tearing" involved, through several layers of skin. The wound was both deep and wide, she said.

I'm that much more thankful my son didn't get hurt and that things weren't even worse. I'm frustrated that the other owners don't know how much damage their dog did, and that they can't be held responsible.

[glinda]

1. Happened to my dog on our own property. Our Wheaten, who had cancer,

was attacked by the neighbor's two Chessies right in front of me. He died about a month later. It was a horrifying experience that left me speechless for a month. I literally threw myself in between them and my dog. Neighbor had to pay Vet bill and he sold the two dogs and moved. Am sorry this happened to you. It is horrifying.....

[pnwmom]

2. I'm so sorry, glinda! What a horrible way to lose a dog.

I was feeling sad and angry that our little girl, who was always more nervous than her brother (who happened to be at home), had to go through this trauma. She's always been more cautious with other dogs, and now she has a good reason.

But I know it could have been so much worse for her.

And my husband says if he'd been there that pit bull might have lost his head. And I don't think he was kidding.

[glinda]

60. It is good to carry a horn or a spray.

You cannot trust others will leash up their dogs.

[Liberal_in_LA]

57. .

that's so sad

[Demoiselle]

3. I believe in leashes. ALL the time, unless you're in deep country or a fenced-in yard.

[pnwmom]

5. They were in pretty deep country on a backpacking trip.

But those owners obviously had at least one aggressive dog that should never be off-leash under any circumstances.

[cherokeeprogressive]

4. NEVER EVER let your dog off its leash in public.

For your dog's safety and the safety of others.

Exception: enclosed dog park.

[pnwmom]

6. Our other dog has been attacked several times in an enclosed dog park.

I think the risk is actually higher there, based on the high number and mix of dogs that frequent that park. We stopped taking our dogs there because so many of those dogs were aggressive.

[cherokeeprogressive]

8. I should say "possible" exception.

I blame situations like that on dog OWNERS.

[MsPithy]

81. Everybody says that,

and of course it is true, but what good does it do? Will we ever pass a law that says careless or stupid people can't own aggressive breeds?

[IDemo]

131. We are about a 5 minute walk from a dog park

And quit going precisely because of that.

[hollysmom]

42. my border collie was immediately responsive to my call and very non-aggressive.

I used to walk her off the leash all the time, she would look at me if she wanted to chase something and I would have to give her permission. I did not train her, she trained herself and had great restraint.

I did not walk her off the leash but in carefully selected spots. mostly because I used her to chase Canadian geese from our parks and then would call her back - kept our parks geese free for years, not that anyone thanked us. She had no desire to hurt them just herd them. She was also incredible with children, very patient as they would stand on her tail or pull her ears (yes I stopped it, but kids can swarm in some of the parks. I don't even take my current dog near those parks, she is too impulsive). Know your dog, know your self. Know the area and what you can expect that time of day.

[pnwmom]

48. Border collies are known for that -- probably because they were bred for that kind of control.

Unlike some other breeds . . . .

[hollysmom]

50. she was part lab as well

I used to say the best dog for lazy people, she would exercise her self running in circles around the trees in the unfenced yard and then lie on TV and watch animal planet or any animal show for hours.

[cherokeeprogressive]

52. Sounds like a wonderful dog.

No dog should be unleashed in a public place with the possible exception being an enclosed dog park.

All it takes is for an unfamiliar situation to spook a dog, then all bets are off.

Did you only object to geese in your park or would you prefer all parks to be goose-free zones? I find it kind of hard to believe you'd walk her off leash ONLY in "carefully selected spots" if you would then go on to state that a public park was one of those spots. I'm sorry, but there's that.

[hollysmom]

61. I would walk her on leash to the park

past the police station and take her off leash at that park. There was playground nearby that used to get filled with goose poop, but mostly we would go there in the morning before kids were there. If you have never been to a park taken over by Canadian geese, you have no idea how disgusting it can be. I would also walk her off leash on the beach in October and November when there were few people and few dogs there. She liked to dig in the sand for shells and stuff. Not much of a water dog, but she did get to play with a few other dogs in the open.

I was training her to be a therapy dog when I got an opportunity to go to Europe and could not find a sitter, So I put her in a recommended Kennel, where she came back abused and bloody. I trashed them everywhere I could and they are closed now. Anyway, she then had one fear - loud sounds, when she hear them, she would try to come so close to me, she was trying to become a part of me, that was her spook response. Although she did run away a bit when she had an acorn fall on her noise from a large and tall oak one day, but came right back.

So I did trust her beyond all the other dogs I had, and especially the one I have now which is only off the leash in the dog park and home where I follow her around because she has barking issues and will get into a bark fight with cocker spaniels for some unknown reason. She is shy with other dogs

[FirstLight]

7. ugh

I HATE people who have their dogs offleash and say "oh, don't worry, he's friendly"
...well MY dog isn't, especially when she is ON leash and feeling threatened...

that pisses me of to NO end...

sending prayers for your puppy, hope she isn't hurt too badly

[pnwmom]

9. Yes, that's happened when we've had dogs on leash, too.

How can owners say "don't worry, he's friendly" when he's growling at you or chasing your dog around your legs?

And thanks for your concern.

[FirstLight]

10. I dunno

but the level of stupidity and the way most people smile and say it so sweetly is part of what pisses me off the most. I have gotten to the point where I no longer hide my disdain or rebuke them openly.

Look, if you understand ANYTHING about how pack animals work, you would KNOW that dogs look for the one who is at a disadvantage.. and the one on leash is going to be the most threatened as well. but people don't care about that...

[TorchTheWitch]

24. Amen and Amen!

I don't give a shit if their dog is friendly, I don't want it around my dog mostly because I'm not so stupid as to believe that their dog is always friendly in all circumstances, my dog is wary of other dogs he doesn't know (thanks to shitheads with off leash dogs that have menaced him), and I'm spending time with MY dog and don't want to be also dealing with theirs friendly or not.

[Aerows]

53. I'm going to go out on a limb

and guess that you either have a pit bull or another fighting breed type? Because most dogs aren't "menaced" in the slightest if they are well-socialized or are capable of being well-socialized.

Feel free to unload on me.

[pnwmom]

62. This sounds like blaming the victim.

My dog was menaced today, and she is well-socialized.

[Aerows]

68. Except this isn't the first round I've had with TTW

over this very same issue. You see, TTW thinks that your dog is also at fault for not being on a leash, too. You didn't get that part of it? Anything that makes a dog aggressive is the fault of whatever stimuli made the dog aggressive, not the dog.

This isn't the first time we've gone round and round about this. I had a Doberman that would, and could, eat your arm off but would stop in a heartbeat if I commanded it. Pitbulls will, 90% of the time, but it's the 10% that ends up with mangled pets and mangled people.

[pnwmom]

71. I noticed that people didn't understand that my dog was actually safer being off leash,

in this particular situation, so I edited my post to try to explain that. If she'd been restrained by my son, the pit bull would have had continued access to her, with only my son and his kicking foot to stop him. As it was, as soon as my son gave the first kick, she was free to run away -- and easily outpaced her attacker.

[Aerows]

76. Pretty much she was

I have great respect for German Shepherds. They mind people. My grandmother had one into her upper 90's. He wouldn't go to the bathroom without looking at her to make sure it was okay, but he drove off thieves that attempted to burgle her house at 13. He was without fear when it came to her, and was without a limit on patience when it came to her, too. My uncle thought he'd knock her down and tried to take him away from her and I don't think I've ever seen her get so mad.

She loved the hell out of that dog, and as big as he was, he loved her.

ETA: She died about 7 months after he did. I didn't mean this to be a sad story, but she broke her hip after he died and never really got out of bed again.

That anecdote aside, your dog was able to run away, the family was able to get their German Shepherd under control, and their Pit Bull did the damage. I'm so sorry that happened to you and your dog, and neither of you deserved that.

[MsPithy]

85. But, there are problems with being off leash also.

What if she had not stopped running and you couldn't find her? With a serious injury she could have slipped into unconsciousness before you could find her, and ... well, bad things.

[pnwmom]

87. It's true that sometimes there are no good options.

But in this case it happened to work out better that she wasn't tied to my son, entangling them both with the pit bull for an indeterminate amount of time.

You're right, though. Harm could have come to her in running away, too. We're lucky things worked out as they did.

[MsPithy]

107. Yes, I'm glad thing worked out as well as could be expected for your

son and furry kid.

I know more than $800. is a shocking amount, but when my boy was bitten by a German Shepard at the dog park, it was not deep and only the skin was torn and that cost over $600.

I am going to get the pepper spray to carry. Even if my dog or (probably the most likely scenario) myself, get overspray, it lasts a lot less time than the effects of an attack.

[TorchTheWitch]

109. BULLSHIT

I never said any such thing. In fact, until now I had no idea that her dog was off leash. If it was off leash and well-socialized and trained to always respond to commands as she herself complained of other dogs not being that way then fine. The only problem with her dog being off leash is that she would not have been able to stop an attack on it had the attacking dog chased it too far away from her. Having her own dog on leash also protects her dog as she is then able to keep her dog from being chased away and further attacked where she couldn't have done anything about it. Had her dog been on a leash she could have bashed the noodle of the attacking dog and may have been able to thwart any attack at all. Protecting her dog from harm is her responsibility according to her dog if she wants her dog to respect her as the leader - her dog expects her to protect it from a menacing attacking dog, and she can only best do that by keeping her own dog close to her on leash.

But having a well-socialized properly trained dog as hers is she should be ABLE to freely walk it off leash without having to worry about other aggressive and uncontrolled dogs attacking it. Had her own dog been on leash she would have been better able to protect it from attack, but had those two other dogs not been off leash she wouldn't have had to protect it from attack in the first place. She's absolutely right in her belief that dogs that are not well-socialized nor properly trained to obey should never be allowed off leash.

What have we gone round and round about? I barely even recognize who you are, and you clearly know nothing about me.

[HisTomness]

67. Your confidence is misplaced

Plenty of dogs from all sorts of breeds get anxious around unfamiliar dogs in unfamiliar circumstances - especially if the other dog is not leashed. Your broad generalizations about most dogs not being menaced in the slightest are naive at best.

[Aerows]

69. And your qualifications are?

Since you declare that I'm making broad generalizations?

[HisTomness]

154. Qualifications? LOL!

It takes a special kind of pompousness to demand qualifications from someone who disagrees with you.

[Aerows]

155. It certainly does

and I have that special kind

[TorchTheWitch]

94. And you'll fall out of the tree

No, I don't have a Pit Bull nor a "fighting breed type" (whatever that is and as if it matters). Yeah, well socialized dogs are menaced all the fucking time by other dogs that are NOT well socialized or trained thanks to their shitheaded owners that walk them off leash and can't control them or WON'T control them. Not all dogs like other dogs or certain other dogs and that's NATURAL. When an unknown dog comes into what any dog considers to be their territory, doesn't know how to great them properly by not being threatening and allowing their butt to be sniffed but charges up to a strange dog willy nilly when such behavior is considered by DOGS to be threatening behavior that's an obvious socialization, training and owner responsibility problem. And it often IS threatening behavior as the OP unfortunately found out today as her dog was attacked by a dog off leash that menaced hers and caused it nearly $1000 in vet bills by being attacked. What, you think this is the first time in history that an unleashed dog menaced or attacked another dog???

ALL dogs are capable of being well-socialized, and it has not shit one to do with their breed. Gads, you'd think people would have learned this stuff by now.

I've spent decades researching and training including cadaver search and have been more recently working with our local K-9 human officer and his dog partner in police dog training. All you've got is ignorant opinion contradictory to every dog expert there is and refuse to educate yourself because dagnabbit, the truth is whatever the fuck idiotic crap you want to believe according to your own misplaced agenda. And it's as stupid and useless as tits on a bull.

Frankly, your out on a limb ignorant assumption is very telling and extraordinarily offensive particularly personally. Happy landing.

[Aerows]

156. Won't be the first time I fell out of a tree

I do prefer getting my ass handed to me, however. Or at least I probably would if I bothered reading that diatribe. I'm not saying tl;dr, but I'm not *not* saying it, either.

[nadine_mn]

80. Exactly! My german shepherd is very reactive to other dogs

and extremely protective of our female Lab/Chesapeake retriever mix (they are both neutered). I don't want to say my dog is aggressive - because he just mouths other dogs and won't stop. I know that as a GSD he could do some serious damage if he bit and I don't want to run that risk. We keep him muzzled on walks because people have their dogs on damn retractable leashes, loose dogs or worse - dogs that escape their Invisible Fence yards and when they come charging at us - even if they are friendly, he goes into protective mode.

Just because your dog is friendly, doesn't mean my dog won't feel threatened.

[blueamy66]

88. This happens all the time on the Sacramento River.

I don't give a shit if you think your dog is friendly. It only takes a second for that dog to change its mind.

I keep my Jack Russell on a leash. It's not that hard.

I am amazed at the amount of pit bulls and other large dogs running freely on the river's edge.

It's downright scary.

[Cleita]

11. Wow, that's scary and I hope you reported this to whatever authorities are in charge

like rangers or sheriffs. We have to do it all the time around here because of irresponsible dog owners, who leave their dogs off the leash. We've had our cats, other dogs and chickens attacked by other people's dogs off the leash or not in fenced yards.

[pnwmom]

12. Unfortunately, this was in a forest where there's no easy access to people in charge.

And my son was focused on bringing our dog back down the trail and to a vet -- he didn't even get the name of the people who owned the dogs.

[Cleita]

13. You still need to report it. If you live in CA, there is a state law that dogs are not to be off

leash no matter where they are forest, lake or city. It alerts authorities to what needs to be done, patrolled, etc.. If you got a name and address from those people, so much the better. They will pay them a visit and give them a warning for the future. If their dogs are loose again, they will get a ticket and so on until they understand.

One of our local goober neighbors had to get several visits, fines and threats to have his dogs removed and go to jail, if he didn't take care of his dogs. But he finally got the message.

[pnwmom]

30. Unfortunately, my son didn't realize right away that she'd been bitten

and by the time he did, the other owners had made themselves scarce. In all the excitement, he hadn't had a chance to get their names.

[Cleita]

36. That's too bad. They are liable for your vet bills if you can catch them. n/t

[MADem]

77. The wounded dog who was attacked was off the leash too--that'd be turning themselves in. nt

[Cleita]

84. It would be and they probably would both get a lecture and maybe even

citations, but it still should be done. The people with the aggressive dogs need to understand their responsibilities. I'm willing to bet those larger dogs are allowed to attack wildlife like squirrels and rabbits and the dog mistook the poodle for prey. I mean this is hunting without a license.

[MADem]

133. No, they wouldn't "both" get a lecture. Only the names of one party are known, here.

And that's the party that was minding their own business.

The owners of the attack dog have melted away into the distance, unnamed and unknown. They got the hell outta there because they knew they were dead wrong. They probably are assholes, but the only thing that will happen if the incident is reported is that the aggrieved party, who were minding their own business and their dog wasn't aggressive and they ended up paying nearly nine hundred bucks to the vet, would get that "lecture" and those citations--and who needs a fine on top of all that bullshit?

I say they should invest in the strongest pepper spray the law allows--and maybe take bullwhip lessons. Be scouts on the hike...."Be Prepared."

I am not a gun fan, and I am a dog fan, but I would have understood completely if one in their party shot that damn dog that attacked the little one.

[Cleita]

141. Whatever. I'm happy in my county, the so-called authorities do work with both sides of

an incident even when both sides are wrong. I have seen it personally with dog owner problems as well as situations with horses and other farm animals. I can't imagine how badly a situation would escalate or deteriorate if guns and pepper spray or any other aggressive means were used by neighbors and people you share a trail or campsite with.

[MADem]

142. They can't work with both sides when one side has a dog that bit the other one, and they ran off.

The other side, the ones with the biting dog, have done a runner. They're gone--poof, disappeared. No justice for them, because they took the coward's way and ran, after their dog did nine hundred bucks worth of damage to the little dog.

If that young boy had some pepper spray on him, he might have stopped that larger dog from harming the smaller passive one.

[Cleita]

144. That's just not so. It might have enraged the larger dogs enough to attack the

young boy as well. Violence is never an answer when there is always a better one like keeping your dogs on leashes even in the deep woods. I think considering that both the perp and victim in this case were at fault, escalating it with a violent response could have made the incident much worse.

[MADem]

147. Dog can't bite what he can't see. A million postmen and meter readers swear by it.

I don't think the victim was at fault. The dog was well behaved and voice controlled. The attack dog was not under control, and that's what caused the difficulty.

[pnwmom]

86. Yes, though ironically she was safer this way; and my son, too.

If my son had been restraining her on a leash, the pit bull would have had continuing access to her, and my son probably would have had to kick the pit again and risk being bitten himself. Instead, he kicked once, the pit let go, and our dog raced away, with the pit chasing after her. She's a real runner, so that was actually a better option than being leashed to my son.

[MADem]

132. I know--its a pity your dog got hurt at all. I think you need some pepper spray in your hiking kit.

That should help to mitigate the situation if it comes up again.

[pnwmom]

134. Yes, I think all this has convinced me. It might not have helped in a situation

that happened as fast as this one, but it might stop an even worse attack.

That and good walking stick. (I like that idea better than my son's foot.)

[Warpy]

14. "Oh, but Muffy wouldn't hurt a fly!"

is what dog owners who are totally clueless about the animal's psychology always say.

Dogs belong on a leash unless they have had exemplary training, preferably by a professional trainer, and can be restrained 100% of the time by voice.

I hope your doggy isn't badly hurt, but pits are all jaw and tend to do tremendous damage. Those should always be on a leash unless the owners like cultivating lawsuits against them.

[pnwmom]

19. She's going to be okay, and the vet will be $870 dollars richer. n/t

[Warpy]

20. Ouch.

I hope you can find the bozos and present a bill as a way of proving to them why they need to put their fucking dogs on leashes.

[Aerows]

59. Amen n/t

[Aerows]

56. "Muffy won't hurt a fly"

and I'm shocked, shocked that she could bite someone since she's got fighting dog bloodlines. Wow. I'm amazed that you think Muffy could do such a thing. She was just smiling while she had your dog gripped around the neck, and was just playing.

[Liberal_in_LA]

15. are the owners of the pit bull going to pay the vet bill?

[bike man]

16. Did your dog break free of her leash prior to the attack? nt

[pnwmom]

18. She was walking with my son off-leash. But we have had another dog attacked while

he was on-leash.

Dogs who attack don't really care about other dogs' leashes.

[bike man]

22. Smaller dogs who are friendly but without restraint (leash) can be easy prey to a large

aggressive dog, even one on a leash, just because it (the small one) runs up to the large one playfully.

From the OP

Dog owners: don't let your dog off leash unless you KNOW that dog isn't aggressive and you KNOW that he is under voice control.

and you might add 'or if you have a small dog that will be a taste treat for a large aggressive dog, even one on a leash.'

[pnwmom]

25. No, she definitely wasn't running up to him, playfully or otherwise.

She's cautious around other dogs -- likes to stick to her people. They came from behind and chased after her, but one dropped back when the owner called him. The other attacked our dog right in front of my son, who kicked him off her, and then both dogs ran. The one thing about our dog is that she runs like a gazelle and she out ran the pit bull. But he'd already managed to bite her, while she was with my son.

So now the vet is going to sedate her and clean out her wound -- to the tune of $870.

[Kali]

31. jeebus

that is a hell of a lot of money to clean a bite, how bad was it?

[pnwmom]

37. I don't know how bad the bite is. Vets are getting more and more expensive around here,

and this is Sunday, so we had to take her to the special 24/7 animal hospital, which I'm guessing charges more than other places.

But yeah, I was pretty shocked when I gave them the credit card info!

[darkangel218]

78. I wuv you kali

[pnwmom]

79. Turns out it was wide and deep enough to require a drain for the next few days.

The vet said there was "a lot of ripping and tearing" involved.

[nadine_mn]

82. Oh I am so sorry for your dog and you

What a traumatic experience, so sorry about the bite - so glad your dog was able to get away before even more damage was done.

[pnwmom]

83. Thank you. My husband has been anxious all afternoon, waiting to get the call

to bring her home. Poor doggie!

[MsPithy]

89. 800 is probably accurate.

My boy was bitten by a German Shepard at our dog park, it was not deep, skin was torn, and that was over $600.

[backwoodsbob]

17. easy solution...shoot the pit

that's how I feel..and I have rescued more dogs than probably anyone on this site...shoot the pit

[roody]

108. All dangerous dogs should be euthanized.

[baldguy]

116. And just how would you go about identifying "the pit" to be able to shoot it?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022881621

And why would you ignore the GSD? Because they are much more aggressive than Pit Bulls.

[one_voice]

122. What the fuck?

you're just gonna pull a gun and shoot a dog?

You think saying you rescue dogs makes it ok to pull a trigger on a dog because you don't like that breed. Makes me wonder what happens to the dogs you do have if they 'misbehave'.

[flvegan]

128. He has.

One that belonged to a relative, no less.

[Oneka]

153. You are inferring

That his solution was breed based and not based on the attack. Shooting an attacking dog can be very effective in saving your own dog. I hike on the superior hiking trail with my griffon, allways on a leash, and encounter unleashed agressive dogs frequently. I have sprayed some dogs, bear spray, and shot more than one who attacked my leashed dog. I'll be damned if i let some unleashed dog kill or maim my dog. I have a substantial amount of money, in excess of $7,000,and countless hours of hunting and obedience training in my dog.

[flvegan]

127. (facepalm)

You're good at the ole "shoot the dog" idea, ain't ya, bob?

And no, no you haven't.

[TorchTheWitch]

21. unleashed dogs are a fucking menace

And I'm totally amazed at how many people have aggressive dogs off leash regardless of their size that don't even DO anything when their beast goes after or even attacks someone or their pet. And then you see the SAME shithead walking their beast off leash again!

As soon as I get the money I'm getting a can of mace and blasting any off leash dog that charges me and my dog. I'm beyond fucking sick of these irresponsible uncaring owners. And I don't give a shit what size the dog is. I've had to deal with more tiny off leash dogs charging at and stupidly attacking my big dog and I've had it. Just because your dog is small is no reason to just allow it to attack someone else's dog regardless of its size.

In my old neighborhood the biggest dog menace was a violent little pug that would viciously attack anything that moved. That dog bit more dogs of all sizes all over the neighborhood and even children and some adults, and they DID. NOT. FUCKING. CARE. One night just outside my place the stupid woman and her beastly animal were walking on the opposite side of the street, and as usual the damn thing charged across the street and attacked my dog nearly getting mashed in traffic, and I punted it back halfway across the street. THEN the owner comes running over belaboring me for kicking her attacking beast, and I was so furious that I screamed at her that if she didn't get it and herself clear of us in the next few seconds the next punt was going at her STUPID FUCKING HEAD. After that the dog was on leash and wore some kind of cloth muzzle thing over its snout. They moved away a few months after that, and good damn riddance. I always felt so sorry for the guy that had a nice well-behaved pug that looked exactly like the evil beast since he caught so much blame for what the beastly one did. I'd bet my last dime that stupid lady still lets her pint sized blood sucker rampage off leash where ever they live now.

On Edit: Crap, I was getting angry all over again that I forgot to mention that I hope your dog is ok and that you find out who the owners are of the dogs that went after yours and throw the book at them.

[pnwmom]

28. Thanks for your concern, TTW! Unfortunately, my son didn't realize right away

that she'd been wounded, and by the time he noticed the blood the other owners had disappeared.

The problem with pepper spray or mace is that it could hurt our dog as easily as the other one. But it might be a good idea to have along anyway. You never know what you're going to run into in the woods.

[TorchTheWitch]

125. your dog will be fine as long as you blast it

directly in a menacing dog's face before that dog can get into your dog's face. You gotta be the aggressor and learn to recognize dominant or aggressive subtle behavior like how the unknown dog is carrying itself, etc.

I always err on the side of better safe than sorry. Having a large breed dog that is a formidable opponent my bigger worry is what my dog may do to an off leash dog in protecting himself from some lunatic dog trying to attack him. And of course I also have to worry how that would effect his future behavior. Yoshi's getting better about going back to accepting greetings from other strange dogs but he's still a bit hesitant and not nearly as excited about a potential greeting by a new dog that he used to be before. I'm encouraged though as just a few nights ago I noticed this adorable English bull dog approaching and saw that Yoshi was waging his tail and looking interested again. Not as flamboyantly interested as he used to be, but maybe he'll get back to that eventually. Now the only problem is that after accepting that cute bull dog he's decided he's in love with her and wants to go straight to her house to see her when we go on our walks and falls into total misery when she's not out on her porch to see him. LOL!

Anywho, better than pepper spray when you're walking in the woods might be to walk with a good solid walking stick to use to either keep a dog at bay or in a worse event give an attacking dog some good hard whacks with. I also found out by accident that a trashcan lid makes a good shield as well as a weapon. That what I did when that jackass with the golden retriever that is ALWAYS off leash and constantly menacing other peoples' dogs. Being that it was the night before trash collection day most of the neighborhood already had their cans at the curb since our area is first for collection in the early morning I happened to be just a few feet from someone's trashcan when that beast came flying at us, and I just grabbed off the trashcan lid and used it to get between the attacking dog's face and Yoshi's. I was just about to start beating the thing on the head with it when its owner FINALLY decided he should do something, but that dog was pretty relentless, and not only did it not have a leash it wasn't wearing a collar either, so the guy had to haul the dog off and away by its tail. And damned if I don't see that asshole at least once a week out walking his dog with no damn leash! I'm sick to death of having to walk Yoshi at different times to try to avoid that dog or seeing it out unleashed have to backtrack around another block and peer around corners trying to figure out where it is so we can just get the hell back home. It was that incident that made Yoshi wary of meeting other dogs since I wasn't quick enough with the trashcan lid, and the beast got in Yoshi's face before I could react.

You might find this helpful...
http://leerburg.com/dogattack.htm
The protecting your dog from attack is the second part half way down the page though the first part is an interesting read.

[pnwmom]

126. Thanks for the link. I'll check it out.

[Aerows]

43. I'll take a Pug biting me

any day over a pit bull biting me. One can injure me, the other can kill or dismember me.

[hollysmom]

44. Orange oil spray works better.

[bike man]

58. I carry Halt!, a pepper spray for dogs, on my bicycle rides. Meter readers and

letter carriers often carry the same stuff.

http://www.amazon.com/Halt-Dog-Repellent-1-5-oz/dp/B000E4Q7BS

[pnwmom]

74. But the risk is that your own dog gets a face full of that, too.

I suppose if that's the only option . . . .

[bike man]

104. Halt! for dogs is not as harmful to dogs as "people" mace. But that is NOT the only option.

You can take your little Fluffy off the leash, then do nothing while watching as it is maimed or killed by another, larger, meaner dog.

And, as I said, I carry the spray on my bicycle rides. My dogs are either in the house, or in the fenced front yard. When we go to the vet with them, they are hand carried to the car and into the office. In the office waiting room, they are on a leash or in my lap.

edited to add: Halt! comes out in a long stream, about a 20' range. It is not a widely dispersed spray. It is controllable.

[TheCowsCameHome]

23. Why do folks walk with their dogs off-leash?

Seriously, unless you're walking where you KNOW there is no threat, don't do it.

I hope your pooch makes out OK.

[TorchTheWitch]

27. I will never ever ever understand this

Never. There is never any reason for any dog to be off leash in public unless they are at an off leash dog park.

[Aerows]

32. That doesn't excuse the fact that the owners

called the German Shepherd back, and it minded, but the pit bull wouldn't. A German Shepherd is without question a highly dangerous dog under the right circumstances - namely aggression towards its owner. A pit bull can turn dangerous, including towards its owner, under any circumstance because they are hard-wired towards aggression.

You will never convince me otherwise. The breed has been spoiled by people that seek to have pure aggression instead of pure obedience in a dog, and that is dangerous. There is a reason why they commit more deaths than any other breed of dog, even though they are far and away not the most popular breed.

I'd say the same thing if Labrador Retrievers or Dobermans were doing it - both have the capacity to be highly dangerous, but have bloodlines that aren't fouled by dog fighting.

[uppityperson]

139. "pit bull...are hard-wired toward agression. You will never convince me otherwise"."like a pit bull"

Your quote and then from the OP. Something that looks "like a pit bull" is "hard-wired towards aggression"

[pnwmom]

40. Our other dog has been attacked at an off leash dog park, more than once.

That seems to be where most of the aggressive dogs go. This is the first time one of our dogs has been attacked in the woods.

[hollysmom]

47. People should not take dangerous dogs to the dog park.

one of ours has a time out zone where bad dogs go, but in the smaller one I go to, we have "the Police" of a professional dog sitter who takes all her dogs there and decides who can stay and who has to leave. if dangerous dogs go to you dog park and no one lays down the law, you need to involve animal control.

[TorchTheWitch]

121. that's why I stay clear of dog parks

Off leash parks or not. Dog parks were a bad idea brought by good intentioned people.

http://leerburg.com/dogparks.htm

[TheCowsCameHome]

45. At the very least, you can rein in/control YOUR dog

even if some brainless bastard allows their dog to run free and cause trouble.

It may not be an ideal solution, but if your dog panics, you have no control over it whatsoever. I don't particularly give a fuck what happens to their beast, but I want my dog to have better chance of not getting hurt.

This stuff makes my blood boil..............

[pnwmom]

90. Reining in our dog wouldn't have helped my son much in this situation.

If he'd had our dog restrained on a leash, the pit bull would have had continuing access to her, limited only by my son's kicks. Instead, my son kicked once, the pit bull let go, and my dog raced away, drawing the pit away from my son. Once the pit bull gave up chasing her, my son didn't have any problem getting her back. She came to him right away.

It wasn't just our dog that was safer because she could run; it was my son, who didn't end up getting bitten by the pit in a continuing fight.

[TheCowsCameHome]

114. Your son was indeed fortunate,

that bull could have done who-knows-what. $870 may have been the bargain of the month.

When we had dogs, we always leashed them unless we were sure there was no danger - desolate beach walks, for instance. I always felt better knowing I had a link to my dog.

My wife was dog-sitting a neighbors young German shepherd - a pussycat, but it had the classic black facial features and big head - very intimidating looking. She let it off the leash when we were walking in what we thought was a safe area behind their home - typically there was no one else around.

Lo and behold, the shepherd spotted a little dog and two young kids, along with their parents walking by a pond. The shepherd suddenly crouch down, then bolted like a rocket, ignoring our commands to stop. The fear in the faces of the other people was unreal, we were scared as hell of what was going to happen - consider the possibilities, since we really didn't know the dog, fortunately the shepherd did no physical harm to anything or anyone, the kids were screaming uncontrollably, I could only try to apologize to the parents. I wanted to roll up and die.

That was years ago, I relive it every time I'm in that area.

[pnwmom]

119. Our dogs are thirty pound fuzz balls, and no one ever seems intimidated by them.

But it would be horrifying to see your dog attacking someone or their dog. I'm glad you just had a false alarm.

[pnwmom]

33. So they can run and sniff around and act like dogs.

And plenty of dogs can handle that freedom, but not all deserve it.

(Our vet knows that dog loves to run alongside my husband when he goes mountain biking. The vet's only concern was to make sure we didn't leash the dog for that -- he said leashing her would be much too dangerous.)

[Aerows]

39. You did nothing wrong

Your dog was under control. The German Shepherd was under voice command control. It was the pitbull that flipped out. Again.

[pnwmom]

41. Yeah, that's how it seems to me, too. At least the pit didn't bite my son.

I'm counting my blessings.

[Aerows]

65. God

What a disaster that could have been

[pnwmom]

100. I know. He wasn't alone, at least. He was with a girlfriend, who could have called for help.

But she could have gotten hurt, too.

I do feel lucky it wasn't any worse.

[Aerows]

26. German Shepherd

Owners called it back. It obeyed.

The other dog? Well, I'll leave it to you to make up your mind.

[backwoodsbob]

29. yep

I probably housed over 200 dogs short term in my runs for PAWS when I lived in Virginia...I finally took a no pit's/mixed pits/looks like a pit stance.

They were just too dangerous

[Aerows]

35. Their bloodline has been destroyed

by people breeding them for fighting. It will take generations to get them back to being a decent dog. I wouldn't trust one now for love or money. It's a shame, really, because they CAN be a good dog, it's just Russian Roulette with whether you have one that can go off with a hair-trigger or one that truly is a decent dog.

[MsPithy]

91. Absolutely! This is the heart of the matter!

Anyone who has a pit usually does not know how far back in the line the fighting genes existed. Was it the mom or dad, grandfather, great-grandmother? As long as we turn a blind eye to dog fighting in this country, pits can not be trusted.

If we started using modern crime-fighting techniques, pulled out all the stops, balls to the wall, no expense spared to find and execute dog-fighters, and strictly regulate breeding, we could save the breed.

[flvegan]

140. "Their bloodline" is an interesting thing to say.

Please back that up with the appropriate genetics and dna support. A full workup of the "their" specifically.

Thanks.

Or, you can admit that some folks talk straight out of their asses from time to time. Not you, certainly, but some.

[uppityperson]

34. Hope she does ok. Why was YOUR dog off leash? Don't let your dog off leash.

[pnwmom]

46. Because she's a dog and the only place she gets to act like one is on a trail in the woods.

But she wasn't bitten because she was off leash; she was bitten right in front of my son, who then kicked the attacking dog off her. She could have just as easily been on-leash -- the other dogs didn't care.

[glinda]

63. and what about bears.....am sad when

I hear about a bear getting shot because a dog runs after it because it is off leash. We have created a sad environment for all.

[pnwmom]

75. Yes, that would be a danger. But our dogs stick close to us. My husband trained them well

because he is well aware of the dangers from wild animals.

[uppityperson]

73. Yet you and others continue to write don't have dogs off leash. Even you. Even your dog. Not just

to protect your dog from other dogs who are off leash, but to protect other animals, birds, squirrels, etc. And if you say "oh my dog would never do that", and it may not, still, that is the same thing other people say about their dogs. Those other people you and others here are demanding be on leash at all times.

I am sorry your dog got attacked, hope she/he heals quickly and well.

[pnwmom]

96. The thing is, under these circumstances both she and my son were better off

because she was off leash. She was a few feet away from my son when she was attacked, and he kicked the dog off her. Then she raced away with the other dog in pursuit. When the other dog gave up (she's fast), she came right back to my son.

But if my son had had her restrained on a leash, the attacking pit bull would have had continuing access to her -- with only my son and his foot to keep him off her. I'm glad she was able to run away. He couldn't bite her again and she diverted him away from my son.

[Boudica the Lyoness]

49. Not everybody lives in the city or suburbs.

On the farm, on the trails, in the backwoods etc, that is the place for dogs to run and have fun. It's a sad fact that humans have bred a breed of dogs (pit bulls) that attack and kill their own kind.

[Quantess]

55. Some dogs are great off leash,

for example, all of my dogs that I trained myself are /were all delightful and proper dogs on and off leash, responsive to my voice.

It also helps that they are spayed / neutered. But the most important factor of all is the upbringing of the dog. Some dogs can absolutely be trusted off leash and some others cannot.

[a la izquierda]

38. oh no!

I hope your pup is on the mend. We wncounter dogs offleash constantly. My big dog does not like other dogs in his face. My husband will usually give owners the who-and-whatfor.

[Skittles]

51. aw I hope your dog is OK pnwmom

please keep us updated

[pnwmom]

72. We're waiting to hear from the vet that she's out of "surgery"

but I think she'll be fine, physically. They needed to sedate her to clean out the wound on her side, but I don't think they noticed anything more serious.

She's always been kind of a cautious dog though -- I'm afraid this won't help her confidence.

[LWolf]

54. I'm glad you are okay.

I agree that dog owners should not let dogs off leash if there is any chance that the dog will be aggressive. I've told my mom repeatedly not to let her golden retriever off leash; not because of aggression, but because the dog won't stay in her line of sight and does not respond to voice commands to come back.

I am guilty of letting my dog off leash on the trail. She's an aussie, and will not leave my line of sight. If anyone of any species approaches, she stands in front of me and makes nice, at the same time letting them know not to come further. After 10 years together, I really can't envision her attacking anyone. She'll warn other dogs off, but not by attacking. She warns the cat off with a crisp bark and nudge when the cat gets too persistent in harassing her.

She did "bite" my 13 yo grandson last night; "bite" meaning she grabbed him with her mouth. Why? He, being fidgety and restless, fell out of a chair and one foot landed square on her ribs. She leapt to the side, gave a panicked bark, and grabbed his ankle. No scratching or bruising involved. As a puppy, she was also known to nip at ankles to "herd" people, until she was taught differently.

The grandson was horrified and immediately dropped down to see if she was okay. She responded by giving him a bath.

The only truly scary dogs I've ever encountered belonged to, and operated within, a feral pack. I used to encounter them at times out on the trail with my horse. My horse, a dog-hater who grew up chasing coyotes out of the pasture, can be counted on to make hooves and teeth count when it comes to aggressive dogs, but that pack, operating as a group, scared me.

[pnwmom]

66. I think having three large dogs running loose together was a mistake.

I wish I knew the owners had learned a lesson, but my son didn't get their name in all the excitement, so they aren't the ones stuck with the $870 bill.

[brett_jv]

64. Sorry for your dog's injury, but I just have to say ...

You probably should've had your own dog on a leash as well. No offense intended, not saying it's 'your fault', but the problem may very well have been avoided if you were 'doing the responsible thing' as well ... the leash is as much for one's OWN dog's protection as it is for other people's dogs.

Hope the pooch makes a full recovery

[pnwmom]

70. Ironically, if she had been on-leash, the pit bull would have had continued access to her

and my son probably would have had to keep kicking him off, and might have gotten bitten himself.

As it was, after my son kicked the pit bull off, our dog went racing away, and the pit bull didn't have a chance of catching her. The only reason he caught her in the first place is because she was calmly walking beside my son. But few dogs can out race her -- she's a real runner.

[Shankapotomus]

92. Would it be too much to ask

what state and/or area you were walking?

I plan to move to the Catskills and I certainly don't want to encounter that.

Glad your dog is still with you and your son was not seriously injured.

[pnwmom]

93. I don't know where exactly my son was.

He was backpacking an hour or two outside of Seattle -- I think. But aggressive dogs can be found anywhere.

[Shankapotomus]

97. I wonder if a can of pepper spay

would have been effective. It's terrible that people can't even enjoy a walk without having to worry about such scenarios.

[pnwmom]

99. I'm thinking about that now. The disadvantage, of course, is that it would be hard

to avoid spraying our own dog in that situation.

[Shankapotomus]

101. I would think if it incapacitated

the attacking dog as well, it would be worth it since it wouldn't kill either dog and possibly save yours from serious harm.

[bike man]

111. Halt! is carried by meter readers, mail carriers, and me on my bicycle. It is not as harmful

to dogs as 'people' pepper spray, and shoots in a 20' stream rather than a dispersed spray. It is controllable. I've used it while pedalling.

[Shankapotomus]

115. Thanks for the tip

Will have to pick some up.

[bike man]

118. Bicycle shops often carry it. Or online from various places, Amazon

http://www.amazon.com/Halt-Dog-Repellent-1-5-oz/dp/B000E4Q7BS

hostelshoppe.com is a big recumbent bicycle retailer, and has Halt! and some really fine recumbent bicycles.

[alarimer]

95. In my opinion, dogs should NEVER be off leash.

And cats should never be outside, period.

But the leash thing is the law in most places. I cannot stand people who lets their dogs run free. I had one pee on my chair at the beach, WHILE I WAS IN IT. I told the owner to control her mutt or I would call animal control.

[pnwmom]

98. Well, in this case, my dog probably would have been bitten again if she had been on leash.

And my son might have gotten bitten, too. Instead, my son kicked once, disrupting the attack, and my dog was able to race away (without being restrained by a leash or having to drag one behind her that could get caught on things). If she was leashed to my son, the pit bull would have had nothing but my son and his kicking foot between him and our dog. I'm glad for both their sakes our dog was free to run.

[DeschutesRiver]

102. This is my concern when I go on trails now days

I am so glad your poodle and your son survived this attack.

I see so many off leash dogs while hiking with my dogs, and have had quite a few coming running towards us. If the owner is in sight, I tell them to get control of their dog or I will do it for them. Because I am no longer in the mood to be polite when this happens. So far I have not had to harm someone's dog to save my own, but I am mentally prepared to do it.

So far I have been lucky that either the owner gets my drift and the dog is brought under control, ie doesn't get close, or the unsupervised dog responds to me and saves its bacon, or we manage to get out of a bad situation in other creative ways, like where an owner who is being an ass about their nasty off leash dog doesn't believe I will stop it in its tracks if it does attempt to hurt me or my dog. If I can defuse it, I will, but these things can escalate in a heartbeat.

The more I hike, the more stupid I see out there. I have listened to horror stories from fellow campers whose dogs have almost died in off leash attacks, and seen things that are really bad and totally the fault of an asshole owner who does not give a darn about the resulting bloody expensive mess they have left behind. Of course, those people left the scene before your son had gathered his senses, let his adrenaline rush slow back down and had a chance to check out your poor poodle for injuries.

Because they didn't want to pay for the damage. It probably wasn't the first time their dog had done this, so they knew they needed to boogie before your kid realized what had happened. Again, so glad this wasn't as bad as it can get.

[pnwmom]

105. Thanks, DR. Yes, I'm sure my son had quite an adrenaline rush from the experience

and I understand why he wasn't able to get their names (they might not even have told him, who knows). The important thing was he got our dog safely down the trail and to the 24 hr/7 day animal hospital.

[DeschutesRiver]

110. One thing I forgot is that there is a pepper gel spray that I am looking at

Some people claim the gel may be better than the spray because it will be less likely to blow back on you or your dog if there is a wind. It will stick to the attacker rather than spray everywhere (they even had some on amazon that also leave a green dye on your dog or person attacker). I havent decided yet if it is a good thing or not, but wanted to throw that out there.

Thank goodness there was an emerg clinic nearby. My dogs are around 50lbs, and I carry a emerg dog sling in my pack in case one has to be carried out (even 30lbs would be hard for old me!) Lately we've been in places so remote that getting help could be quie delayed, so I have to think about these things in advance.

[pnwmom]

112. Thanks for the info!

[Texasgal]

103. I'm so sorry that happened!

I'm in the camp that all dogs should be restrained in any public area. Period. I am glad your dog got away, but of the other dogs were restrained this may not have happened.

I never let my dogs lose in public ever.

[pnwmom]

106. I've seen a couple horrendous youtube videos of attacks on small, leashed dogs

by vicious off-leash dogs.

Smaller dogs are at risk, it seems to me, whether they're leashed or not.

[Texasgal]

123. My dogs are small too.

I have two Boston terriers.

I understand what you are saying. If everyone restrained their dogs though there might be less attacks. My dogs have been attacked while leashed by other dogs and it pisses me off to no end!

Leash your dogs.

I do hope your baby gets well soon.

[pnwmom]

124. Thank you! The wound looks terrible now -- four or five inches long, with drains

at either end, and very swollen.

Thank goodness for antibiotics and 24/7 emergency rooms for pets.

[aristocles]

113. In the city, dogs and cats are vermin

This from someone who has fostered dogs since the age of two, but in the countryside. not the city.

[Arugula Latte]

145. And humans are vermin in the city, country, and 'burbs then.

Have you seen the damage they do to the environment and the amount of animals they kill?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

158. i've lived in cities all my life, and thats just true. nt

[NaturalHigh]

117. Sorry about your dog.

I hope she's doing well. It sounds like you have a pretty tough dog and a sharp kid.

[pnwmom]

120. Dogs are stoic. My son knew to get her to the vet

but didn't realize that her wound was as bad as it was. She's coming home soon with a drain on her side and a cone over her head.

[flvegan]

129. pnwmom, I'm sorry this happened

and I'm glad your family is okay, and it sounds like your pup will be in time.

The other owners CAN be held responsible, and I hope you make them financially accountable for what they did.

[pnwmom]

130. Thank you, fivegan! n/t

[Rowdyboy]

135. What a nightmare. I'm really sorry you guys had to got hrough this.

Sounds like the best possible outcome at this stage.

[pnwmom]

136. Thank you, Rowdyboy. My son is distressed that he couldn't stop the attack

but it all happened so fast. And I'm thankful neither my son or his girlfriend was hurt, and that they could get her to the vet pretty quickly. She looks awful now, though, with drains coming out of the wound, and she whines every time she moves. The next three or four days will be difficult . . . .

[Rowdyboy]

138. I have a 13 lb Jack Russell mix who at 13 has never met a challenge she was afraid of....

Thank God we have a fenced in back yard that she respects. Its big enough for her to get her exercise and only once in 3 years have strange stray dogs managed to get in. She did have a brief face off with a raccoon recently-thankfully she was as freaked as we were by finding a gigantic "cat" in the back yard!

Best of luck to you all and reassure your son he did all that he could.

[life long demo]

137. I am happy that she'll be able to come home, I'm sure

she wants to be comforted. Happy that your son wasn't hurt. Sounds like a very frightening situation.

[Cha]

143. Glad it ended as well as it did, pnwmom. I know

I would have been quite shaken up for a bit.

to your little dog's healthy recovery.

[pnwmom]

146. Thank you, Cha.

She's sleeping now, with most of the hair shaved off one side, a bunch of ugly black stitches, and the ends of a drainage tube sticking out from both sides of the stitches. But she should be okay, eventually.

[Liberal_in_LA]

148. poor dog

[Honeycombe8]

149. That bite will hurt your dog like hell. I've had a dog bite before.

It was just a small one, but it's amazing how much they hurt. I've also had a human bite (don't ask). The dog bite hurt much worse, for some reason.

Next time, get the other dog owners' info before leaving the scene! Even if you don't think your dog was hurt. You might want to report them, so it'll be on record, if that happens again, and the next dog isn't so lucky.

[pnwmom]

150. My son was too busy chasing after our dog, and the one that was still chasing her.

Then the chasing dog gave up. But by the time my son carried our dog back to the trail, the owners had taken their dogs and left.

But yeah, I told my son that if something like that happened again, get the names even if you don't immediately see an injury through all the fur.

[MuseRider]

151. One thing about poodle's and poodle mixes

is that poodles can flat out run. Our two standards could outrun my horses. They flat out fly.

I hope your little sweetie will be OK and that she recovers well without too much mental trauma to go along with the physical.

People should know better, I just don't thing that many ever really think beyond their own desires anymore.

[pnwmom]

152. I didn't know that about poodles. But I know she's a little gazelle.

There's nothing she likes better than to run beside my husband while he's mountain biking. When she sees him putting on his biking shorts she goes nuts.

So that nasty pit bull didn't have a chance of catching up, once he got kicked off her.

[Solly Mack]

157. I'm so sorry!

How scary! Poor baby!

[pnwmom]

159. She's doing better. As long as it doesn't get infected, she'll be okay.n/t

[Solly Mack]

160. Good thoughts coming your way!

I'm glad she's better.

[pnwmom]

161. Thanks, Solly Mack! n/t