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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region Forums"Can someone tell me whether we're supposed to be offended by Johnny Depp's portrayal of Tonto?"
Here it is, the trailer for the Disney/Gore Verbinski flick The Lone Ranger, which will hit theaters in 2013. Depp met with the president and other officials of the Navajo Nation in April, and was presented with blanket. Although the members of the Navajo Nation may not have a problem with Depp's portrayal of Tonto, and we'll have to wait for the movie's release to decide whether or not it's a nuanced character (rumor has it there's a twist regarding Tonto's true race/identity) or just plain old red face. But we do hear him speak pidgin English: "There come a time, kemosabe," he says, "when good man must wear mask." Sigh. A very stereotypical version of how Native Americans talk, despite the fact that when Europeans came to these shores, there were millions of indigenous people who spoke hundreds of distinctly different languages. Anyway, that phrase, "kemosabe," is supposed to get us super psyched for this movie, since that's what Tonto called the Lone Ranger in lines written by white guy Fran Striker, who penned the series in the 1930s. As this headline puts it, "Johnny Depp Sounds Hilariously Racist as Tonto." Trailer below.
http://jezebel.com/5948542/there-come-a-time-kemosabe-when-johnny-depp-speak-like-indian-in-lone-ranger-trailer
JustAnotherGen
(31,798 posts)As the op?
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)Pros:
Technically, Johnny Depp IS (probably) part Native american, so its not totally out of line for him to play a character that was seriously oppressed by white people. Depp said in an interview that he was initially drawn to the story because hes got Native American ancestors and didnt like the way Tonto was bossed around by the Lone Ranger. I guess I have some Native American somewhere down the line, he says. My great grandmother was quite a bit of Native American, she grew up Cherokee or maybe Creek Indian.
Part of being an actor is about having the ability to change your identity and play a character. Tonto is fictional and Depp has played many a fictional roles: Jack Sparrow, the Mad Hatter, Edward Scissorhands, Willy Wonka, Don Juan/John Arnold DeMarco. (Don Juan, btw, is a fictional character who was said to originally be either Spanish or Italian. Depp is neither.)
He got the green light from an actual Native American, regardless of his bloodline. In 2012, Depp was adopted as an honorary son of LaDonna Harris, a member of the Comanche tribe and president of Americans for Indian Opportunity. This does not make him a member of the tribe, but he was recognized by Harris for his upcoming role as Tonto, who is described in the film as a full-blooded Comanche.
He had the right intentions when taking on the role. Depp said that his goal for playing Tonto was to attempt to reinvent the relationship [between Tonto and the Lone Ranger], to attempt to take some of the ugliness thrown on the Native Americans, not only in The Lone Ranger, but the way Indians were treated throughout history of cinema, and turn it on its head.
Cons:
Like Lena and Rachel said, even if hes partially Native American, its not enough to justify the role. Besides, it doesnt sound like hes totally sure about his ancestry and he hasnt bothered to confirm anything that information is available via public record.
Yes, part of being an actor is about having the ability to change your identity, but if Depp donned blackface to play, I dont know, Shaft, people would be flipping. their. sh*t.
People did flip. their. sh*t about Sasha Baron Cohens alter-ego characters (like Borat, an anti-Semitic) and Ashton Kutchers portrayal of Raj, a fictional, brown-faced Bollywood director (in a Popchips commercial that was later pulled). So why shouldnt Depp/Hollywood be held accountable for this, too?
Its not even an accurate, respectful portrayal. He looks like a Kiss-clad Gene Simmons-meets-Brandon Lee from The Crow in a Scary Movie version of The Birds. Also, the costume is apparently based off an imaginary painting by a white man, so theres that.
bunnies
(15,859 posts)(snip)
What has most people scratching their heads is the black crow that appears to hover over Depp's head, and the black stripes that run vertically down his painted face. The inspiration came from a painting by artist Kirby Sattler, who said his work isn't specific to one tribe but is modeled after nomadic Plains tribes of the 19th century.
Depp took the image to the film's Comanche adviser, William "Two-Raven" Voelker, to ask if it was far-fetched. His answer: It's not.
"There are a lot of people out there screaming who are not Comanche, as in this story Tonto is supposed to be," Voelker said. "They know nothing of bird culture. When we wear or use those feathers, we're calling on the energy of the entire bird."
(snip)
"I just hope that the other rabble-rousers out there can just sit back and take this in as a piece of entertainment," Voelker said. "It's not ever supposed to be an end-all to our Comanche culture. If they have problems, they can come to us, and I take that responsibility."
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/12/disney-tonto-offensive-lone-ranger-film_n_3263071.html
Adsos Letter
(19,459 posts)identified as an Apsaroke man called "Two Whistles." He is wearing a bird on his head. I seem to recall that these types of adornments had a spiritual connotation, or represented a connection between the wearer and a (spiritual guide?) associated with the animal world.
[IMG][/IMG]
Image link: http://www.loc.gov/pictures/resource/cph.3b30185/
bunnies
(15,859 posts)Wow. And I cant help but notice that his face is painted, also. Im under the same impression as you regarding the adornments & I dont find it absurd at all considering their spiritual beliefs.
Those commenting on how we should be offended at the idea that a Native American would look such a way dont seem to know much about that particular culture. Thanks for posting that.
roughrider101
(35 posts)Well, how is it different from Lou Diamond Phillips as Jose Chavez y Chavez in Young Guns? His mother is a Filipina and his father is Scots Irish..with maybe 1/8th Cherokee thrown in somewhere (like everyone else in America who is Scots Irish).
Or Antonio Banderas playing a Mexican bandito (Banderas is a European from Spain).
Yul Brynner as the king of Siam, Angelina Jolie as Danial Pearl's wife in A Mighty Heart,
Heck, or Linda Hunt who won an academy award for playing a male Javanese dwarf in A Year of Living Dangerously (great performance BTW).
What I saying is, no it should not matter
...it's not like we are talking about Mickey Rooney playing Fu Man Chu Chink 'a Chink Chung or whoever that's different.
el_bryanto
(11,804 posts)I don't know - i suppose I'll just end up seeing the movie and then either getting offended or not getting offended, as my mood suits me. Or I won't feel like going to the movies that week and won't have a strong feeling either way.
Bryant
loli phabay
(5,580 posts)Someone will find something to be offended by.
pipi_k
(21,020 posts)I recall some years back when a bunch of RW Fundies decided to go all bullshit on some Walt Disney cartoons, claiming they were riddled with porn.
I can see why inkblot tests are so interesting to psychologists. The tests give them a real good look into the mindsets of their patients. What does someone "see" that may not actually exist...
monmouth3
(3,871 posts)movie and according to the review Depp was very good...
Berlum
(7,044 posts)Half-Century Man
(5,279 posts)ChazII
(6,204 posts)school. However, it was named after the tribe not the character.
Arugula Latte
(50,566 posts)dbackjon
(6,578 posts)Whenever I do something (like trip over my puppy's chew toy, etc
ChazII
(6,204 posts)about that since we were in the Scottsdale Schools District. At the time all of the elementary schools were named after tribes. Some were named after well known tribes like Apache, Navajo and Pima.
snooper2
(30,151 posts)Until the next shiny thing pops up and folks who are bored typing on the intertubes will forget about it and move on because having the attention span of a sparrow- we roll like that
ZombieHorde
(29,047 posts)Half-Century Man
(5,279 posts)...there will be Disney "spin" to make the story better.
Enrique
(27,461 posts)but I don't think she should be offended when some other people choose to discuss the racial stereotypes in this myth.
el_bryanto
(11,804 posts)Brother Buzz
(36,409 posts)Buzz Clik
(38,437 posts)Jay Silverheels was the original on the tube; although he poured on the broken English, he was the real deal.
Depp knows he's going to take a flame thrower up his shorts over this; I'm assuming he's prepared with an explanation.
LWolf
(46,179 posts)My initial reaction was:
1. Couldn't they find an authentic native american to play Tonto?
2. I can't believe they even tried to bring this back. How much did they have to change the original characters to make it work in 2013?
3. I'll pass.
Then, yesterday, my mother called me to ask me to go see this movie with her. She's a huge Depp fan; has been since his very first movie, whatever that was. This is important to her. I asked her if the native issue and the racist links to the original bothered her; she said no. She said "he's part native," and she read that interview with him wanting to bring something better to the character. She's not going to not love Depp, or skip one of his movies, because of any questionable connections. Kind of like some Obama voters.
So I'll be seeing it at some point with her, if it's still in theaters by the time we both have the day off.
KittyWampus
(55,894 posts)Last edited Wed Jul 3, 2013, 11:34 AM - Edit history (1)
why try to bring back the western
but Eastwood put an entirely different spin on the characters.
Perhaps this will do the same, and from Depp's comments, it appears it does.
However, one would have to see the movie first.
LWolf
(46,179 posts)I've seen all of his westerns. While the western isn't my favorite genre, I am a horse person, and Eastwood, unlike most actors, can actually ride a horse.
You bring up a good point; I'll keep it in mind when I see the movie.
Enrique
(27,461 posts)the Lone Ranger myth is from the 1930's, created by a white man. If it's remade, it will carry all the same problems. Better to come up with original stories that portray Native Americans without stereotyping, but I guess there is a demand for all the old Western myths.
LWolf
(46,179 posts)Is it time for another season of westerns? Maybe. Who wrote the screen play, and who did that person consult?
pipi_k
(21,020 posts)know the answer to that, but I saw something funny a few months ago when I was watching a documentary on Netflix called "Indians in Hollywood" or something like that.
Loads of movie clips and interviews with actual Native Americans.
One group told a story about a movie they were in some years ago. They were told to speak in their native language for the movie...which they did.
The subtitles showed the usual dialogue you see in such a movie, but the reality was that, since they were speaking in their own tongue, they could say just about anything and few people would know.
So they came up with some outrageous dialogue, like "The white men eat buffalo shit", and things like that.
I don't know how they managed to keep straight faces while they made the movie...
bunnies
(15,859 posts)The plot thickens.
KansDem
(28,498 posts)Thats perfect.
calimary
(81,192 posts)Well, this may be heresy but the first thought in my head was to wonder whether Johnny Depp is finally starting to face the risk of being overexposed?
Xithras
(16,191 posts)Both words can be translated both ways, which was very likely an intentional gag by the original writers.
Translate it one way, and "Tonto" means "wild one", while "Kemosabe" means "trusty scout".
Translate it the other way, and "Tonto" means "stupid" while "Kemosabe" means "He who knows nothing". Basically, the two insult each other throughout the show.
The writers later claimed that it was coincidental, but I personally doubt it. It's more probable that it was a joke that was officially denied to protect the show from faux outrage.
bunnies
(15,859 posts)Myrina
(12,296 posts)Seriously, all that damn money & talent they have and THIS is the type of crap they're producing?
Eccch.
Duckwraps
(206 posts)I live in the area where this was filmed. Lots and lots of Native Americans here and to date, to my knowledge, no one has published, or raised any criticism or complaint. Maybe that it is because the portrayal is entirely different than that of Jay Silverheels. I have spoken to may natives about it and let's please leave it to them to do the complaining. They may object to us telling them what should upset them.
calimary
(81,192 posts)Glad you're here. Good points you make.
zappaman
(20,606 posts)FSogol
(45,470 posts)See Jim Jarmush's Dead Man.
IMDB says, "On the run after murdering a man, accountant William Blake (Depp) encounters a strange Indian named "Nobody" (Gary Farmer) who prepares him for his journey into the spiritual world.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0112817/
KittyWampus
(55,894 posts)FSogol
(45,470 posts)What's your favorite? Mine is "Stranger than Paradise."
As for the OP, I think Native Americans and Latinos are under represented in films (Ie. "Argo" and "The Impossible" to name two recent ones), but I'm not sure the role of Tonto is that important.
KittyWampus
(55,894 posts)zappaman
(20,606 posts)so it's MYSTERY TRAIN for me,
Although GHOST DOG and COFFEE AND CIGARETTES are up there too...
mahina
(17,638 posts)<3
JaneyVee
(19,877 posts)And no one knows who the hell is playing the Lone Ranger.
Bonx
(2,053 posts)a native american would walk around 24/7 with a dead bird on his head.
calimary
(81,192 posts)Good to have you with us! Pretty funny!!!
bunnies
(15,859 posts)Bonx
(2,053 posts)Gotta be hard work keeping a dead bird hat looking good.
true, but at least theyre cheap to feed.
pipi_k
(21,020 posts)Scurrilous
(38,687 posts)Xyzse
(8,217 posts)It looks ridiculous. That's about all I can say for it.
Even if he did the character as accurately as possible, it still doesn't seem to be a good movie, so there is no point.
No point in bashing it about race, the fact that it looks dumb as is, is enough.
kestrel91316
(51,666 posts)I fell in love with him as an actor in Edward Scissorhands.
rhiannon55
(2,671 posts)Johnny Depp is a wonderful actor.
Larkspur
(12,804 posts)I grew up watching the TV series. I loved Jay Silverheels as Tonto. I thought Silverheels portrayed Tonto as human as possible for a 1950's TV series.
Weren't any real Native American actors available for this project?
ismnotwasm
(41,975 posts)I'll listen to the opinion of the Navajo nation as well as other Native Americans.
I'm far more offended by name of the Washington Redskins personally.
I read somewhere that for its place and time, "The Lone Ranger" was one of the least offensive shows in its portrayal of a Native American character, because Tonto was more than a two dimensional character, but a person in his own right. I don't remember much about the show, but that seems a bit of a stretch or damned by faint praise or something.
marshall
(6,665 posts)Whether someting should or should not be offensive involves the social realm.
bike man
(620 posts)JoDog
(1,353 posts)(so, salt to suit your palate), the story is told more from Tonto's point of view. Tonto is a partner, and in some ways a mentor, who has his own backstory, demons, and need for vengeance.
The piece interviewed Depp, the director and the producer. It also played a snip from a vintage Bill Cosby routine to illustrate the racist way Tonto was used on TV and radio. (Tonto always went into town, where he was beaten up. As a kid, Cosby yelled at the screen, "Don't go into town, Tonto!"
Coincidentally, on Saturday, I heard an episode of Prairie Home Companion that had a female duo singing the Lyle Lovett song that imagines Tonto telling off the Lone Ranger.
I am going to see the movie and wait until then to make my call on the character. When I was young and knew no better, I loved the syndicated show. I never saw the racism, I just thought the Lone Ranger was lucky to have such a smart, loyal friend as Tonto and a cool horse like Silver. Watching it now, of course, I see it and cringe.
FSogol
(45,470 posts)FreeState
(10,570 posts)Disney is smart at marketing after all.
yesphan
(1,587 posts)1-Old-Man
(2,667 posts)Its the Lone Ranger and Tonto fer christsakes, this isn't a docu-drama, its supposed to be fantasy and funny, which Mr. Depp will no doubt be if others of his movies of the same ilk are any indication.
KurtNYC
(14,549 posts)Basically Tonto just speaks Spanish. The audience of the originals was not supposed to know Spanish but if you do:
Tonto = uncle
Kemo sabe = one who knows nothing
Transalated their conversations begin:
LR: Uncle.
Tonto: Yes, one who knows nothing...
The "Lone" Ranger has a side kick -- doesn't that make him not alone? or is it not supposed to count because his side kick is Native American?
It seems like this was originally kind of an inside joke or at least something akin to naming a car "doesn't go" (Nova, eg No va) or a supermarket "they left" ( Safeway, eg Se fue).
We went to the supermarket but the sign said they left.
BumRushDaShow
(128,748 posts)all I could think was that this was a ballsy move by Disney considering that just about every other "super hero" or "action hero" had been done over and over and over and this one hadn't been touched in decades and decades (for obvious reasons and after the big FAIL of the 1981 film). My mother (who remembers the radio and film serials) asked how the heck they could possibly even make it interesting for "action-obsessed" kids and I described (as the trailer ran - but not the one in the OP's post) how Silver was galloping across the roof of a train just before it goes in a tunnel.
I remember seeing re-runs of various iterations of the old serial but more notably, remember watching the animated one in the '60s.
I suppose this (as opposed to the ridiculous "Song of the South" is perhaps more difficult to reconcile given that the Lone Ranger was a serial, and the imagery was seared into multiple generations (although not so much the youngin's of today because this character hadn't really been recycled in their time until now).
thelordofhell
(4,569 posts)But I do know that the film used a Native American adviser to supervise Johnny Depp's look and mannerisms...........