You are a liar.

[Silent3]

You have lied about something, sometime, haven't you? In fact, if we include "little white lies" in this discussion, your lying is probably a weekly, if not daily, occurrence. If we could examine the whole of your life, there are almost certainly a few whoppers in there -- lies to cover your ass, maybe even a few mean-spirited lies that hurt someone.

Technically speaking (with maybe the occasional one-out-of-a-billion exception?) every last one of us is a liar.

But you're still going to be pissed if someone calls you a liar, and in most cases rightly so, if they do it with condescension, with an accusatory tone, as if lying defines your very nature.

Consider this something to think about with many of the other labels and blanket characterizations being tossed around DU lately, about DU members, about Snowden and Greenwald, about the president and other leaders, about the nature of governments and countries. Is it enough that you have in mind one or two issues or incidents (if you're even sure you're right about those one or two things) to apply a label to a person or a situation, a label that could be technically true, but only in the same sense that you're a liar, hurling that label about in a sneering tone as if you're just defined the very nature of that person or situation?

There are even things that happen frequently in raw numbers, far more than one or two incidents, where nevertheless these frequent events are not representative events.

Take car accidents, for example. Imagine if a poster on DU started screaming about our "deadly" roads and highways. It's certainly technically quite true. That poster could have a field day posting page after page of links to stories about deadly car crashes.

What then if that poster acts like you're an absolute fool if you don't stop driving NOW, after they've shown you THE TRVTH!? What if you try to explain how automotive safety has improved over the years, and for your trouble you get shouted down as a shill for the automotive industry or an apologist for the highway department?

[Silent3]

1. "Since I posted this at 1:27 AM last night...

...I thought I'd bump it now for the morning crowd", he remarked sheepishly.

[bemildred]

2. Nuance does not do well on the internets.

Don't take it personally.

[Silent3]

6. I was trying to avoid bringing up specific accusations and labels...

...because as soon as you do that, the emotions attached to things things pour out and the broader point gets lost. Without those specifics, unfortunately, it's hard to get people engaged at all.

[bemildred]

8. I appreciate that.

I'm just saying it is not uncommon for thoughtful posts to sink like a stone here, it all depends on who is around at the time for example, and what else people are worked up about, and so on. But I can see you know this.

I think your observations are correct and to the point. I lie, or dissemble I would say, all the time as a matter of simple civility, you don't inflict your negative opinions on people in person without some forethought to the effect, if you are civilized, for example. You think about what you say and you try not to upset people.

What matters is whether you lie when it matters, or whether you lie about your lying and are caught out, whether you betray a trust, not whether you make polite conversation when in polite situations.

[markiv]

3. how much alcohol had you consumed when you wrote this?

be honest

[Silent3]

5. Not a drop

I rarely drink at all, haven't for months, and certainly not last night. I don't even see how the idea of my post, or my wording, would seem particularly alcohol induced.

[markiv]

11. the time (past 1 am), and rambling

sure made it look like it

[hfojvt]

4. I know you are, but what am I? Not only that, but

I am rubber and you are glue. Whatever you say bounces off me and sticks to you.

One of the points about a label, it to get people to behave better. As in, you call somebody a liar in order to get them to stop lying so much and to start telling the truth.

But the other thing about labels is that they are a box. Instead of describing behaviour "You are lying" or, better yet "What you wrote/said is not true." we go straight for the label - you are a liar (because what you wrote/said is not true). Or for another example "what you wrote is mean" vs. "you are an a$$hole". Because once you put a label on somebody, then almost everything they do or say can be taken as more proof. When the a$$hole says "have a nice day" they are, once again, just showing what an a$$hole they are.

Further, often statements are not as clear as "have a nice day" they are more like "same to you" which has a different meaning depending on if the first person said "fuck you" or "live long and prosper". But if you "know" that the person making the statement is an "a$$hole" or a "liar" then you are also gonna "know" what they meant when they wrote something that is not clear. You will then not feel the need to ask for clarification, you will instead go full speed ahead fire a full barrage of damned photon torpedoes.

[treestar]

7. Good post

Some people have a hard time sticking to the issue or brooking disagreement, so they resort to the "paid to post" crap and the "shill" stuff. A couple of times I have done it back and guess what - they don't like it then!

[sibelian]

9. "every last one of us is a liar"

Oh, well.



That's alright, then.

[Silent3]

10. What's alright in what way?

I get the impression, despite the fact that I'm trying to make a very general point, that perhaps you've decided I'm really talking about some specific issue X, and that you don't like what you think I'm saying about X. Like maybe you think I'm trying to excuse something?

I also fully admit I could be reading you totally wrong. You've given me very little to go on.

[mick063]

12. I use a method

First I segregate issues from personality

Then I tally the issues.

Then I put those issues on a balance scale and see which way the scale tips.

Then I reattach them to the personality.

Hence, I come to the conclusion that the President has failed.