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Fri Jul 19, 2013, 02:01 PM

Edward Snowden is a self-regarding idealist whose warnings of tyranny ring hollow

When did Edward Snowden, the rogue US defence contractor who revealed some of the inner workings of America’s National Security Agency (NSA) and our own GCHQ, cease to merit even a shred of sympathy from the public he vowed to protect?

Was it when he first popped up in Hong Kong, rather too close to China for many people’s comfort? Or perhaps when he extended his “gratitude and respect” to Russia and Venezuela, two egregious violators of basic rights, for their “stand against human rights violations”?

And if not at that point, then surely when he declared this week that he would not give away secrets that might endanger the lives of US intelligence assets, “even under torture”. What next? Levitation? Invisibility?

No, ably assisted by The Guardian newspaper – which knows more than a thing or two about this subject – Edward Snowden has become a monster of self-importance.

Read more: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/defence/10188209/Edward-Snowden-is-a-self-regarding-idealist-whose-warnings-of-tyranny-ring-hollow.html

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Reply Edward Snowden is a self-regarding idealist whose warnings of tyranny ring hollow (Original post)
Galraedia Jul 2013 OP
Post removed Jul 2013 #1
byeya Jul 2013 #3
LineLineLineReply .
rhett o rick Jul 2013 #25
liberal N proud Jul 2013 #5
rhett o rick Jul 2013 #24
liberal N proud Jul 2013 #37
rhett o rick Jul 2013 #40
liberal N proud Jul 2013 #44
rhett o rick Jul 2013 #52
liberal N proud Jul 2013 #64
Le Taz Hot Jul 2013 #71
liberal N proud Jul 2013 #75
Le Taz Hot Jul 2013 #79
karynnj Jul 2013 #50
rhett o rick Jul 2013 #51
Major Hogwash Jul 2013 #74
rhett o rick Jul 2013 #81
karynnj Jul 2013 #77
rhett o rick Jul 2013 #83
karynnj Jul 2013 #86
rhett o rick Jul 2013 #90
karynnj Jul 2013 #94
rhett o rick Jul 2013 #95
karynnj Jul 2013 #96
liberal N proud Jul 2013 #65
Whisp Jul 2013 #49
rhett o rick Jul 2013 #84
NoOneMan Jul 2013 #2
rhett o rick Jul 2013 #93
reformist2 Jul 2013 #4
jeff47 Jul 2013 #36
Mojorabbit Jul 2013 #6
Tikki Jul 2013 #7
backscatter712 Jul 2013 #8
Puzzledtraveller Jul 2013 #27
woo me with science Jul 2013 #53
bowens43 Jul 2013 #9
Zorra Jul 2013 #15
ProSense Jul 2013 #10
Thinkingabout Jul 2013 #12
rhett o rick Jul 2013 #11
Thinkingabout Jul 2013 #13
rhett o rick Jul 2013 #22
Thinkingabout Jul 2013 #38
rhett o rick Jul 2013 #39
Thinkingabout Jul 2013 #42
rhett o rick Jul 2013 #55
Thinkingabout Jul 2013 #62
rhett o rick Jul 2013 #69
Thinkingabout Jul 2013 #70
cyclezealot Jul 2013 #35
Scurrilous Jul 2013 #14
Apophis Jul 2013 #16
Galraedia Jul 2013 #17
ronnie624 Jul 2013 #91
joeybee12 Jul 2013 #18
QC Jul 2013 #20
snappyturtle Jul 2013 #66
quinnox Jul 2013 #19
Tarheel_Dem Jul 2013 #30
frylock Jul 2013 #21
SidDithers Jul 2013 #23
dkf Jul 2013 #26
Puzzledtraveller Jul 2013 #28
whatchamacallit Jul 2013 #29
flamingdem Jul 2013 #31
UTUSN Jul 2013 #32
Enrique Jul 2013 #33
Scurrilous Jul 2013 #60
Th1onein Jul 2013 #34
Laelth Jul 2013 #41
snappyturtle Jul 2013 #67
99Forever Jul 2013 #43
L0oniX Jul 2013 #45
backscatter712 Jul 2013 #46
Bonobo Jul 2013 #47
CakeGrrl Jul 2013 #48
woo me with science Jul 2013 #54
Number23 Jul 2013 #56
grasswire Jul 2013 #57
Number23 Jul 2013 #58
Scurrilous Jul 2013 #59
Number23 Jul 2013 #61
Scurrilous Jul 2013 #63
Number23 Jul 2013 #68
liam_laddie Jul 2013 #78
Number23 Jul 2013 #97
RetroLounge Jul 2013 #72
ohheckyeah Jul 2013 #73
Deep13 Jul 2013 #76
reformist2 Jul 2013 #80
Pholus Jul 2013 #82
Aerows Jul 2013 #87
Pholus Jul 2013 #88
Aerows Jul 2013 #89
Autumn Jul 2013 #85
ronnie624 Jul 2013 #92
NuclearDem Jul 2013 #98

Response to Galraedia (Original post)


Response to Post removed (Reply #1)

Fri Jul 19, 2013, 02:05 PM

3. To the brim.

 

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Response to byeya (Reply #3)

Fri Jul 19, 2013, 04:09 PM

25. .

 

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Response to Post removed (Reply #1)

Fri Jul 19, 2013, 02:06 PM

5. Only because the poster does not agree with your view

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Response to liberal N proud (Reply #5)

Fri Jul 19, 2013, 04:08 PM

24. The poster seems to be obsessed with spewing hatred for Snowden. Can we spell ad hominem. nm

 

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Response to rhett o rick (Reply #24)

Fri Jul 19, 2013, 05:26 PM

37. There seems to be a lot of hate thrown at anyone not supporting Snowden on DU

I is real easy to get the fur ruffled because the group think on DU stomps all over those who do not fall in line. Sometimes you get on the offensive because you have been on the defensive so much.

The lack respect for a little different view is poison.

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Response to liberal N proud (Reply #37)

Fri Jul 19, 2013, 06:37 PM

40. Really. "not supporting Snowden" Is that what you call this OP. Non-support wouldnt require an OP.

 

If you want to discuss the issues, that's one thing, but there is a contingency here that totally avoid discussion of issues and spend full time with ad hominem attacks on anyone or anything that might reflect badly on Pres Obama.

If you accuse me of wanting posters to "fall in line" then I am guilty. I want posters on DU to fall in line with Democratic Principles and quit acting like Republicans.

Dont you get it that it's Democrats that think that violations of our laws and Constitution may be happening and we need more investigations. The Republicans are loving the NSA, Booz-Allen, Gen Clapper, Herr Mueller, Comey, and Alexander.

Plez side with Democrats and support our Constitution.

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Response to rhett o rick (Reply #40)

Fri Jul 19, 2013, 07:28 PM

44. In other words...

If we don't all have group think, we can drop dead?

If I wanted that, I would be a fucking republican!

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Response to liberal N proud (Reply #44)

Fri Jul 19, 2013, 09:05 PM

52. You cant seem to have a discussion w/o sinking into logical fallacies.

 

If you dont like what I said, then I dare you to tell me where you stand. Go ahead. Do you want more transparency? Do you think that maybe Booz-Allen has access to too much of our personal data? If not, do you care if they do?

The problem I have with you and your friends is that you wont discuss the issues. You will spew hatred like a fire hose, but nothing when it comes to honest discussion. If I am wrong, go ahead and tell me where you stand.

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Response to rhett o rick (Reply #52)

Fri Jul 19, 2013, 10:09 PM

64. I havedone that countless time in the past weeks

Each time I get attacked by idealogs who only accept group think. Telling me that I have to support snowden because he exposed secrets. And I say that's fine that he exposed them, I have problems with where he did it. To me that makes him a traitor.

I am sorry that I don't do group think. My opinion is my own.

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Response to liberal N proud (Reply #64)

Sat Jul 20, 2013, 12:35 AM

71. In other words . . .

you got nothing.

Color me surprised. Not.

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Response to Le Taz Hot (Reply #71)

Sat Jul 20, 2013, 07:32 AM

75. Because I don't fall in line with group think?



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Response to liberal N proud (Reply #75)

Sat Jul 20, 2013, 09:22 AM

79. I see you've learned a new term.

Good for you for trying to make sentences from it.

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Response to rhett o rick (Reply #40)

Fri Jul 19, 2013, 08:42 PM

50. In other words, we can either be with you - or you call us Republicans

Why do you personally have so much problem with this op, which is actually mostly facts? Snowden did leak secrets - that is what you praise him for. It is reasonable to have a different view and think that not every government employee or contractor can decide unilaterally that secret information they have access to can be released because they think it a good idea. He did go to China and Russia - and it is fair to ask if this was a good place to go with American secrets you had not reviewed yet. He has praised countries with atrocious human rights records. All of that is true - not slander of Saint Edward.

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Response to karynnj (Reply #50)

Fri Jul 19, 2013, 09:01 PM

51. I stand with the Democrats that want more transparency. You can tell me where you stand if you dare.

 

I am not calling you a Republican but wonder why you would trust Republicans. Clapper, Mueller, Comey, and Alexander are all Republicans. George Bush loved them. In fact you dont here much of an outcry from Republican over this. They love Gen Clapper, they love PRISM, they love secrecy, they love spying on all Americans.

So tell me who do you stand with?

I dont care if the OP is facts. MOst such posts are out right lies so I stopped reading them. But tell me this, why is it necessary to post these OP's every other day? And even if it's facts, it pales in importance to the possibility (probability) that the NSA and Booz-Allen are violating the Constitution. But you dont give a crap about the Constitution. You want soooo bad to trust the Republicans running our spy agencies to keep you safe.

If you can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, you deserve neither liberty nor safety. Ben Franklin, sort of.

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Response to rhett o rick (Reply #51)

Sat Jul 20, 2013, 12:51 AM

74. "I dont care if the OP is facts."

I think that most of the people here figured that out a long time ago.

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Response to Major Hogwash (Reply #74)

Sat Jul 20, 2013, 10:05 AM

81. And once again nothing but snark. Snowden isnt the biggest issue. People are using him as a

 

distraction. People that apparently side with the Republicans on this issue.

Is Booz-Allen collecting data on all Americans and are you ok with that?

And your ridicule shows your character.

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Response to rhett o rick (Reply #51)

Sat Jul 20, 2013, 08:00 AM

77. I stand with Democrats, including the President

The court has not said that the current NSA system, which Congress voted for with super majorities in both Houses of Congress, is unconstitutional. You are simply throwing the word around without any support.

The tone of your response is not conducive to any coherent discussion - especially as you state that you "do not care if the op is facts". That's a pretty stunning statement - as is the statement that "I stopped reading them". Now as to why it is necessary to post "these ops" every other day, the reason is that this post is stating some very basic truths that inform the response of many of us who do not agree with Snowden. ( Why do you care and especially why post on these threads especially as you say you are not actually reading them. )

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Response to karynnj (Reply #77)

Sat Jul 20, 2013, 10:12 AM

83. The court hasnt had a chance to rule on what Booz-Allen is doing today. We arent even sure.

 

We need to find out. Or I guess we could pretend it's ok and concentrate on Snowden.

I dont care about whether the OP is facts or not, because it has nothing to do with the major issue that the Republicans want to hide and Democrats want to investigate.

I dont care if it's a fact that Snowden wears boxers and not briefs. His character has absolutely nothing to do with what we need to be doing now.

Who is collecting personal data on Americans?

How much data is being collected?

What are the sources of the data?

Is all of the data being compiled and analyzed?

Who has access to the data?

Is the FISA court providing honest oversight?

Is Congress providing meaningful oversight?

These are a few of the questions we should be discussing, not what kind of a person Snowden is.

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Response to rhett o rick (Reply #83)

Sat Jul 20, 2013, 11:23 AM

86. There are two separate issues

1) What the NSA is doing and whether Congressional oversight has been adequate. Here, I am far more impressed with people like Senator Ron Wyden, who has carefully looked at the legislation and has led on amendments to rein it in. The last time it was renewed, it was more constrained than the 2007 bill that passed and very controversially retroactively protected the government and private companies that started surveillance with no legal backing. Wyden and others have spoken of wanting more restrictions - I think it would be far more useful for the left to back Wyden in this effort rather than Snowden.

2) Snowden himself is an issue. He made himself an issue when he loaded 4 laptops with classified information - leaked some to Greenwald and others - then fled to China with his laptops. He and Greenwald have alluded to having information on his computers that could harm the US. How do you justify that he took this information on laptops out of the country?

- If his issue was to get the discussion on the NSA going he could have JUST released information on that. If, as many argue, it is understandable that he did not want to face charges and maybe spend a long time in prison, then why not release what he wanted and flee (possibly before Greenwald actually released stuff) - WITH NO SECRET FILES. Had he done that, there would be far fewer people here saying he was a traitor or arguing that he was harming the United States.

- Now before you quote Snowden saying no one could break the encryption, I can tell you that he is delusional. Given enough time, experts in other countries can break the code.

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Response to karynnj (Reply #86)

Sat Jul 20, 2013, 11:49 AM

90. I agree with you on paragraph 1). It's paragraph 2) I have a problem with.

 

I would agree that we need to determine more about what Snowden has done. But we dont know what he actually took out of the country. Most of the information against him is just someones speculation. How do we know he took secret data to China or Russia? Those that want to cover up what is really happening at Booz-Allen has launched a hate campaign against Snowden. Until we learn more I think we need to concentrate on Booz-Allen. I think the Snowden issue will continue to evolve.

Remember Booz-Allen has access to the same data that Snowden did. What are their intentions? Can someone else do what Snowden did? Can we trust Booz-Allen with data on all Americans?

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Response to rhett o rick (Reply #90)

Sat Jul 20, 2013, 12:55 PM

94. The speculation is based on what he and Greenwald explicitly said.

You would have a point if I (or anyone) made a conjecture that in that many laptops, he surely has something harmful. We know that he took secret data to China and Russia because they said so. In fact, if that is the vaunted hate campaign - the one you need to look at as a major player -- is Greenwald. Every comment I repeated was from one of those two people - so it is not fair to suggest those ideas came from elsewhere.

It is not "Booz-Allen", but the contractors that work for them, who are assigned to the federal government. I do agree that it was stupid to outsource these jobs. They should be staffed by federal employees. (I wonder if the reason is that these contractors did not "fit" the civil service profile to get the salaries needed to attract them. Like Snowden, there are likely many without advanced degrees and many years of experience that would place them at a high salary level - yet their ability could command those salaries on the open market. Note - this is just conjecture.)

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Response to karynnj (Reply #94)

Sat Jul 20, 2013, 01:14 PM

95. So you believe what Greenwald and Snowden say? I dont. I think they will use misdirection as much

 

as possible. Do you think that if someone wanted to physically transport secret data that they would carry it in three laptops? I dont. And why carry it physically anyway? I take what Greenwald and Snowden say with a grain of salt.

I believe Booz-Allen is owned by the Carlyle Group, an international organization. That doesnt sound secure to me.

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Response to rhett o rick (Reply #95)

Sat Jul 20, 2013, 01:52 PM

96. If you don't believe that, then why believe ANYTHING they said?

There have been NSA people saying that they mischaracterized many things they did say. However, there were things - things that have hurt the US that the government did not deny - such as Britain spying on the G8. Not to mention, he embarrassed the US right before the Obama meeting with China - and the effort by State (Kerry) and Treasury (Lew) to work on the issue of hacking and intellectual rights. Both of these were documents that he really did take and put out.

If Snowden is lying about ANYTHING, that compromises seeing him as a whistleblower or truth teller - because you can't trust him. That diminishes his possible positives - leaving JUST his negatives.

I said I disagreed with using contractors. However, contractors usually are more a part of where they work than the company that contracts them out. (My experience is dated - and was Bell Labs, not the federal government.) I really do not see this as a big conspiracy where the Carlyle Group is controlling these people and having them give the information to the CG itself. I DO think that security and control is better served if the federal government itself employed these people. Another possibility of why they don't is that Republicans preferred contracts to expanded federal departments.

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Response to karynnj (Reply #50)

Fri Jul 19, 2013, 10:12 PM

65. Group think is very republican like.

Just saying.

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Response to liberal N proud (Reply #37)

Fri Jul 19, 2013, 08:38 PM

49. they are getting embarassed, the Snowfans.

 

and are slowly realizing they've been duped and scammed (I'm sure some sent in money to GG) but instead of just laying low and learning another lesson in life and accepting being wrong isn't the end of any worlds, they are angry and beligerent about it and taking it out on ones here who never believed the SnowGlen shit from day 1.

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Response to Whisp (Reply #49)

Sat Jul 20, 2013, 10:32 AM

84. Wow are you way off. The NSA has already admitted to what has been revealed. Clapper

 

himself said that there is a library of collected data. And now the NSA has revised their lie about the number of hops of data they collected. Clapper and the NSA have admitted that they havent been truthful with us. But you wont discuss that. You are obsessed with ad hominem attacks on Snowden, Greenwald, The Guardian, Rep Grayson, Sen Wyden, and anyone that wont join your "Let's just lynch Snowden and forget the whole thing, posse."

I am not embarrassed about Snowden because I dont give a crap about what he said. I care about the following

Who is collecting personal data on Americans?

How much data is being collected?

What are the sources of the data?

Is all of the data being compiled and analyzed?

Who has access to the data?

Is the FISA court providing honest oversight?

Is Congress providing meaningful oversight?

These are a few of the questions we should be discussing, not what kind of a person Snowden is.

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Response to Galraedia (Original post)

Fri Jul 19, 2013, 02:04 PM

2. With real tyranny, you can't publicly complain about tyranny

 

But you know, now that the apparatus is in place, lets wait till then to do anything about it.

BTW, I don't care where Snowden is taking a shit. I only care if the government isn't watching where his shit is dropping. That's essential for a free society

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Response to NoOneMan (Reply #2)

Sat Jul 20, 2013, 12:53 PM

93. I think that's a very good point. In a tyranny there is no transparency and whistle-blowers are

 

dealt with swiftly and harshly. In a tyranny, the police would beat the crap out of peaceful protestors like Occupy. In a tyranny all communications would be collected and analyzed.

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Response to Galraedia (Original post)

Fri Jul 19, 2013, 02:05 PM

4. Surveillance of all communications isn't tyranny??!?!

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Response to reformist2 (Reply #4)

Fri Jul 19, 2013, 04:56 PM

36. You've described Russia, China and Venezuela

While many people cheering Snowden are claiming that also applies to the US, they are wrong.

They are conflating multiple programs that Snowden leaked into a single program. It's not accurate, but it's great for getting people excited.

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Response to Galraedia (Original post)

Fri Jul 19, 2013, 02:06 PM

6. Yawn. nt

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Response to Galraedia (Original post)

Fri Jul 19, 2013, 02:06 PM

7. That is pretty much the way I've seen him from the start.





Tikki

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Response to Galraedia (Original post)

Fri Jul 19, 2013, 02:09 PM

8. GOLDSTEIN!!!



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Response to backscatter712 (Reply #8)

Fri Jul 19, 2013, 04:12 PM

27. yup

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Response to backscatter712 (Reply #8)

Fri Jul 19, 2013, 09:06 PM

53. Nailed it.

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Response to Galraedia (Original post)

Fri Jul 19, 2013, 02:09 PM

9. blah blah blah blah blah.....etc

 

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Response to bowens43 (Reply #9)

Fri Jul 19, 2013, 02:40 PM

15. +1

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Response to Galraedia (Original post)

Fri Jul 19, 2013, 02:20 PM

10. Kick because

no one should be attacked for posting an article or commentary stating a valid opinion.





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Response to ProSense (Reply #10)

Fri Jul 19, 2013, 02:26 PM

12. There seems to be an attempt to get others to believe criminal activity which has resulted in charge

should be accepted. A lot of time has been given to someone which is now a waste.

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Response to Galraedia (Original post)

Fri Jul 19, 2013, 02:26 PM

11. Another "Hate Snowden" thread. If nothing else you are persistent, but on the wrong side

 

in this battle against tyranny. You are critical of The Guardian so I am wondering what newspaper you prefer?

Snowden may well be a self-regarding idealist, but why the obsession with assassinating his character from evidence from biased sources? Why such passion to see him punished? I wish you had the same passion to fight for the Constitution.

IMO those that spew such hatred against whistle-blowers are either in bed with corporate America or so deeply into denial that they hate (literally) anyone that tries to explain that the world isnt as sweet as they have themselves convinced it is.

Something to think about. The same men run the intelligence agencies now ran the agencies under Bush. How would we explain that? Let me start. Pres Obama sees eye to eye with Bush on civil rights. I actually dont believe that. Ok, how about, those that run the intelligence agencies are immune from interference from the president. Now that's probably it. Now your turn. Or cant you think of anything other than "we gotta get a posse and lynch Snowden."

The intelligence agencies are most likely pushing the envelope as far as they think they can get away with. They are run by Republicans.

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Response to rhett o rick (Reply #11)

Fri Jul 19, 2013, 02:29 PM

13. More of your talking points and effort of reading a Constitution to fit your needs and not the

proper needs of this nation. If the Constitution was being violated and Snowden was on the right side of the law he would have run to prove his point in the US rather than remaining on the lam. He knows he is wrong.

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Response to Thinkingabout (Reply #13)

Fri Jul 19, 2013, 04:04 PM

22. Hold on a minute. Are you suggesting we need to read the Constitution in a way

 

to meet the "proper needs of this nation"? Does that mean you are willing to throw out the 4th Amendment all together? If not, please explain your interpretation of "no warrants shall issue, but upon PROBABLE CAUSE, supported by Oath or affirmation, and PARTICULARLY DESCRIBING the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized." That is clear as a bell. That can not be interpreted to mean, "go ahead and collect and compile all data on all Americans."

Snowden ran because he knows the system is corrupt and will not treat him fairly.

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Response to rhett o rick (Reply #22)

Fri Jul 19, 2013, 05:36 PM

38. I have no idea WTH you are talking about. I am referring to the Constitition of

The USA, it is plain and simple, you can keep scratching all you want it will not change the Constitution to read what you want others to believe. It us not going to happen.

On Snowden being on the lam, this just may be his decision or the decision of his puppet masters, he is wrong, knows he is wrong and knows he will be convicted if he should return to the US, leaving his pointless thinking if this was a stupid move either on his part or the part of those he is working. He could plea to a lessor charge in exchange to out the puppet masters, he does like putting information.

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Response to Thinkingabout (Reply #38)

Fri Jul 19, 2013, 06:08 PM

39. I quoted you the Constitution. It requires probably cause and Booz-Allen doesnt have probable

 

cause. The Constitution states that the warrant must be specific as to the person and the specific information. Compiling data on all Americans does not meet that criteria. I dont give a crap how secure you want to be, I aint giving up the Fourth Amendment.

Have you noticed that the Republicans have been pretty quiet about this mess. I am not at all surprised as the programs in question ARE REPUBLICAN BUILT AND RUN programs. And it's Republicans running the programs. It's been Democrats speaking out for more transparency.

There are two sides here.

One side wants more transparency, more assurance that our Constitution isnt being violated. And that side is the Democrats. Including Pres Carter, Ms. Plame, Mr. Wilson, Sen Wyden, Sen Udall, Rep Grayson, plus many other Democrats in Congress. Three previous whistle-blowers confirm the need for further investigations. This side believes in the Constitution over promised security. I choose this side.

The other side wants to maintain the secrecy. Give up Constitutional rights for the promise of security. They want to continue the Spy programs started under Bush and continued WITH THE SAME PERSONNEL under Pres Obama. This side wants to punish Snowden severely to scare others that might dare to reveal what's behind the secrecy curtain. This side wants to allow private corporations to collect data on all Americans and compile it and analyze it. This is the Republican side.

Which side are you on?


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Response to rhett o rick (Reply #39)

Fri Jul 19, 2013, 07:08 PM

42. I know you do not want the facts on this but the actions taken by the Bush administration Was on the

Orders Bush thought he had under the war powers, yes it was without warrants, this has changed, it is with warrants though you seem to argue it is not want you want but ACLU has now found out today it is correct. You really need to update your facts and get to this year, what happened in 2005-2008 is not what is happening now.

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Response to Thinkingabout (Reply #42)

Fri Jul 19, 2013, 09:12 PM

55. Ok let's look at that. Some think that collecting data on all Americans does not require a warrant.

 

Do you agree? Can Booz-Allen interface with Google, Yahoo, your doctor, ATT, etc. and collect everyone's data? I should remind you that Gen Clapper said that the NSA only looks at data in the "library" with a warrant. The big question is who made the library? Was a warrant needed to make the library? Who has access to the library? Can Booz-Allen sell the data to anyone? Is a warrant that says, "you are authorized to collect data on all Americans" a legal warrant per the FISA law? Do you think it worrysome that Congress's oversight is completely restricted by secrecy classifications? Do you recognize that the FISA judges are rubber stamps for the NSA?

I am guessing the above is way too much and you wish we could just lynch Snowden and end this whole mess. If so, Dog help us all.

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Response to rhett o rick (Reply #55)

Fri Jul 19, 2013, 09:43 PM

62. Let's get really honest, the data is origionally collected by communication companies, it has been

Collected for years, all customers should know phone call records are collected for use by communication companies, has this interfered with your daily life? NSA through perhaps contractors collects the phone call records from the communication companies through a warrant. This warrant satisfies the Fourth amendment. The personnel working for NSA and their contractors have security clearance and they also work under a Code of Ethics. The communication companies also have their employees under a similar code. Until recently these records was used by NSA analyst to profile communications with possible terrorist. Unless you are communicating with possible terrorist your records are not looked into. It is like standing on top of the George Washington Bridge and having vehicle after vehicle crossing, if the observer is watching for perhaps a speeder and notices one they do not care how many vehicles crosses the bridge nor do the care about the gallons of water which flows underneath. This is how it is with analyst, they don't have the time or interest in who is crossing or the water flowing beneath.

Do you understand what I am trying to tell you?

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Response to Thinkingabout (Reply #62)

Sat Jul 20, 2013, 12:12 AM

69. You are making some huge mistakes. The data collected is collected by Booz-Allen.

 

I believe they even compile the data and analyze the data. After all they get 50 billions of dollars of your tax money. This collection of data violates the FISA Law and the Constitution. NSA claims they only look at data when authorized by warrant. Do you believe them? Why would you believe them? They are the exact same fucking players that illegally wiretapped for Bush. They are the same players, they have the same programs, and they have the same fucking leaders under Obama. Why would you trust them? And we have learned that the FISA judges approve 100% of the requests. Plez tell me that you agree that looks suspicious.

Who collects the data?

How many Americans are included in the data collection?

Who holds the data?

Who can access the data?

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Response to rhett o rick (Reply #69)

Sat Jul 20, 2013, 12:31 AM

70. I explained this to you in the most simple terms, if you want to dribble about who collects this

data then it is not the point of the data being collected. I did not see anything in the Fourth amendment which prevents the data from being collected by a contractor so you are all wrong on whether it is legal. You are asking me if I trust Booz-Allen, I did trust the data being collected by Booz-Allen until their employee stole files and gave information about their operation which was against the Code of Ethics. I would bet a great number of their employees honor this code. It is your "f**king hero who is the violator, he is the one you can not trust. He is the one along with GG who is threatening to release information, do you trust those two. What looks suspicious is the "cause" these two are puppets working. Thousands of people have had access to phone call records, do you see them running around over the world passing the information out to whomever they can drag into their game? Since you are attempting to portray this as illegal then I don't know if I would give you security clearance either.

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Response to rhett o rick (Reply #11)

Fri Jul 19, 2013, 04:49 PM

35. They don't give up.

Taken from a Thatcherite Newspaper No less. At least the OP didn't resort to Rupert Murdock.

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Response to Galraedia (Original post)

Fri Jul 19, 2013, 02:29 PM

14. Thanks.

"There is, as Mr Obama concedes, a debate to be had about the appropriate balance between privacy and security in an age of information, but Mr Snowden and his supporters live in a world outside the margins of reality.

As with any form of power wielded by human beings, there will always be mistakes, over-reaching and sometimes downright abuse; but there will be no “turnkey tyranny” because wise men foresaw that threat and, unlike Mr Snowden, did something real and profound to prevent it."


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Response to Galraedia (Original post)

Fri Jul 19, 2013, 02:42 PM

16. Trash thread.

 

Worthless garbage.

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Response to Galraedia (Original post)

Fri Jul 19, 2013, 02:48 PM

17. Some of the things that Snowden has said are contradicted by the documents he released.

Example: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023137494

If Snowden was interested in the truth he wouldn't be making false claims and exaggerations.

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Response to Galraedia (Reply #17)

Sat Jul 20, 2013, 11:57 AM

91. Nonsense

1) Define in as much detail as you can what "direct access" means.

2) Can analysts listen to content of domestic calls without a warrant?

Answer:

1) More detail on how direct NSA's accesses are is coming, but in general, the reality is this: if an NSA, FBI, CIA, DIA, etc analyst has access to query raw SIGINT databases, they can enter and get results for anything they want. Phone number, email, user id, cell phone handset id (IMEI), and so on - it's all the same. The restrictions against this are policy based, not technically based, and can change at any time. Additionally, audits are cursory, incomplete, and easily fooled by fake justifications. For at least GCHQ, the number of audited queries is only 5% of those performed.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/17/edward-snowden-nsa-files-whistleblower

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Response to Galraedia (Original post)

Fri Jul 19, 2013, 03:02 PM

18. 64% of the Telegraph's readers support the UK's conservative party...

 

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Response to joeybee12 (Reply #18)

Fri Jul 19, 2013, 03:05 PM

20. Yes, in the UK people refer to it as "The Torygraph."

But then, this same crowd has been citing Little Green Footballs as a source lately, so The Torygraph represents a definite step up.

Right wing sources used to be a major no-no around here. Now they are par for the course.

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Response to QC (Reply #20)

Fri Jul 19, 2013, 10:15 PM

66. I think it's interesting the OP didn't give us the sub-title to this

five paragraph hissy fit and it is: "There is no evidence to support the rogue US defence contractor’s fears of a surveillance state " I can see no address in the article to this point and therefore see it as bait. Of course, if Snowden were to release more info which he can't and still adhere to his promise to the Russians not to, he'd be drawn and quartered again for breaching classified information....and the Telegraph knows all of that. Very juvenile and cowardly viewpoint on its part. imho

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Response to Galraedia (Original post)

Fri Jul 19, 2013, 03:05 PM

19. you have become too boring

 

Your previous threads sliming Snowden had much more color to them. Now its >

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Response to quinnox (Reply #19)

Fri Jul 19, 2013, 04:22 PM

30. Yet you comment on every one of them. Hmmmmm.....

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Response to Galraedia (Original post)

Fri Jul 19, 2013, 03:42 PM

21. opinions are like assholes

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Response to Galraedia (Original post)

Fri Jul 19, 2013, 04:07 PM

23. DU rec...nt

Sid

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Response to Galraedia (Original post)

Fri Jul 19, 2013, 04:10 PM

26. Those warnings of tyranny are ringing rather true IMO.

 

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Response to Galraedia (Original post)

Fri Jul 19, 2013, 04:14 PM

28. Mike Sell's has a new line of potato chips flavors.

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Response to Galraedia (Original post)

Fri Jul 19, 2013, 04:21 PM

29. When?

When he informed me of course. The authoritarians who want us in the dark and under the boot can go to hell. ^

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Response to Galraedia (Original post)

Fri Jul 19, 2013, 04:26 PM

31. Now Snowden's Russian lawyer is floating the idea of applying for citizenship

at least until he understood the optics of saying his client is considering defection.

No matter what dialog he supposedly set off it could have happened without the
loss of his country.

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Response to Galraedia (Original post)

Fri Jul 19, 2013, 04:26 PM

32. R#13 & K, leaving out the word "idealist" in the title n/t

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Response to Galraedia (Original post)

Fri Jul 19, 2013, 04:30 PM

33. this guy might be a right-winger

and I might not find his opinions very useful but they're about a million times more useful and he's about a zillion times more credible than Michael Hayden, whose CNN column was posted here earlier today.

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Response to Enrique (Reply #33)

Fri Jul 19, 2013, 09:34 PM

60. At first I balked at reading this, Tory Telegraph and all, but the piece was fairly decent. n/t

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Response to Galraedia (Original post)

Fri Jul 19, 2013, 04:32 PM

34. Yawn....

REALLY, Galraedia? How many posts are you going to pin on this topic? Is it really all about Snowden?

Good grief.

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Response to Galraedia (Original post)

Fri Jul 19, 2013, 06:57 PM

41. Wow. Just wow.

Peter Foster, the author of this editorial, says:

Edward Snowden is a self-regarding idealist whose warnings of tyranny ring hollow. There is no evidence to support the rogue US defence contractor’s fears of a surveillance state.


Hollow? Seriously?

No evidence? Seriously.

Mr. Foster is entitled to his opinion, of course. So am I, and my opinion is that Peter Foster is either (1) as blind as a bat, (2) in complete and utter denial, or (3) a paid propagandist for those who wish to keep the surveillance state a secret.

-Laelth

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Response to Laelth (Reply #41)

Fri Jul 19, 2013, 10:25 PM

67. I just replied to this same point (#66) up thread. Hadn't gotten to

yours yet. I so-o agree. I go for your option #1. Numbers 2 and 3 would require some work and I believe it took stellar effort on Mr. Foster's part to pump out five pathetic paragraphs based on
historical talking points....no additional thought required. Nada. Zilch.

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Response to Galraedia (Original post)

Fri Jul 19, 2013, 07:12 PM

43. More authoritarian bullshit.

Lame, weak sauce bullshit. And the parts that aren't bullshit, are lies.


Aren't there some boots that require licking?

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Response to Galraedia (Original post)

Fri Jul 19, 2013, 07:53 PM

45. Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz YAwn

 

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Response to L0oniX (Reply #45)

Fri Jul 19, 2013, 08:25 PM

46. I know - the quality of propaganda has really declined as of late! n/t

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Response to Galraedia (Original post)

Fri Jul 19, 2013, 08:29 PM

47. Can we have a Godwin's type law for the "NARCISSIST!!!!" thing? nt

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Response to Galraedia (Original post)

Fri Jul 19, 2013, 08:35 PM

48. Rec. -nt

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Response to Galraedia (Original post)

Fri Jul 19, 2013, 09:08 PM

54. So many steaming piles of propaganda to step around.

Eew.

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Response to Galraedia (Original post)

Fri Jul 19, 2013, 09:16 PM

56. K&R Thanks for the change of perspective around here.

For all the paranoid fantasies of the liberal and libertarian fringes, people do not – as they do in China or Russia – disappear in the night, or have their careers ended or their businesses closed merely for disagreeing with Mr Obama or Mr Cameron.

That’s why they call it the “free world” and Mr Snowden, with his priggishness and self-regard, simply insults all those in actual authoritarian states who really do suffer on the long walk to freedom.


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Response to Number23 (Reply #56)

Fri Jul 19, 2013, 09:26 PM

57. Not this shit again.

You people are making more people admire Snowden. Every day, more.

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Response to grasswire (Reply #57)

Fri Jul 19, 2013, 09:28 PM

58. No, I think people are perfectly able to be duped without anyone helping them.

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Response to Number23 (Reply #58)

Fri Jul 19, 2013, 09:32 PM

59. ...

You slay me.

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Response to Scurrilous (Reply #59)

Fri Jul 19, 2013, 09:38 PM

61. ...



You know what always slays me about the Snowden Lovers? Many polls say that majorities of Americans think what he did was wrong. There are many others that say the opposite, that many believe that he did the right thing.

But what always strikes me as so interesting and truly displays how far some on the "left" are are from reality is that EVEN IN THE POLLS THAT SUPPORT SNOWDEN, the majority want him prosecuted and jailed for what he did. And yet, if someone brings that up around here, they are tarred and feathered by knumbskulls who think this man should be canonized. This place is so full of crazy.

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Response to Number23 (Reply #61)

Fri Jul 19, 2013, 09:53 PM

63. A quote from my earlier reply in this thread (#14):

"...Mr Snowden and his supporters live in a world outside the margins of reality."

Canonized you say? And evidence of some Snowden supporters break w/ reality:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3295460



Have a nice weekend Number23.



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Response to Scurrilous (Reply #63)

Fri Jul 19, 2013, 11:24 PM

68. Good Lord, was that thread a hot mess or what??



Sooo glad I missed that steaming pile. I'm sitting here listening to Malala at the UN with tears streaming down my face. Again. THAT girl is a hero in every sense and definition of the word.

You have a great weekend too!

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Response to Number23 (Reply #61)

Sat Jul 20, 2013, 08:23 AM

78. Everybody, please stop with the hyperbole

Snowdon lovers? How about prosecuting those behind the curtain, and some in front of, who have not only ignored Constitutional principles, but are using the fear factor just as the Nazi's did 75-80 years ago. At age "3/4 of a century" I've had enough of nutjobs posting on DU. Using the Telegraph as a basis for an OP? Absurd on its face. Sayonara, trolls!

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Response to liam_laddie (Reply #78)

Sat Jul 20, 2013, 09:42 PM

97. So much rambling. You could have typed random letters of the alphabet and made the same "point"

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Response to Galraedia (Original post)

Sat Jul 20, 2013, 12:40 AM

72. Yawn

Is your 2 minutes of hate up yet?



RL

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Response to Galraedia (Original post)

Sat Jul 20, 2013, 12:49 AM

73. What a great thread

for knowing who to put on the ignore list.

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Response to Galraedia (Original post)

Sat Jul 20, 2013, 07:45 AM

76. ad hominem, disregarded. nt

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Response to Galraedia (Original post)

Sat Jul 20, 2013, 09:25 AM

80. Oh, no...not an idealist!! The horror...

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Response to Galraedia (Original post)

Sat Jul 20, 2013, 10:11 AM

82. Everything I learned about Neocon propaganda I learned from the Telegraph

Consider this gem from March 10 2013:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/iraq/9919593/Iraq-War-how-the-Bush-administration-saw-the-march-to-war.html

Subtitle, emphasis mine:

"Top aides of George W Bush have revealed that Tony Blair did not place conditions on British support for the US mission to overthrow Saddam Hussein and rejected claims that weapons intelligence was fixed. "

What year is this again? Most people (including Bush, considering his Press Dinner "comedy" skit) recognized that this was bullshit back in 2004.

BTW, the Guardian broke much of the fixed intelligence story. Remember "This is Bullshit?"

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2003/jun/02/usa.iraq

Think I'll stick with the news source who has a track record of getting it right.

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Response to Pholus (Reply #82)

Sat Jul 20, 2013, 11:32 AM

87. At this point, I wouldn't be surprised

 

if George W. Bush becomes sacrosanct around here because he started a program that Obama continues. If Obama continues that program, it must be pure, necessary, and good for you whether you like it or not.

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Response to Aerows (Reply #87)

Sat Jul 20, 2013, 11:38 AM

88. Already seen those sentiments echoing around.

I have had replies that matched word-per-word some inflammatory name-calling passages that Ann Coulter wrote in her screed "Treason."

When this was pointed out the reply was "A lot of the "liberals" on DU today make Ann C. look correct."

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Response to Pholus (Reply #88)

Sat Jul 20, 2013, 11:42 AM

89. All I can is

 

It's utter bullshit. I won't champion it, and I won't bolster those that do champion it. If I can criticize Bush, I can criticize Clinton and I can criticize Reagan, I can also criticize Obama when a President is wrong.

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Response to Galraedia (Original post)

Sat Jul 20, 2013, 10:44 AM

85. Only to those who are hollow.

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Response to Galraedia (Original post)

Sat Jul 20, 2013, 12:12 PM

92. 'It can't happen here, because we're exceptional and special'

A very poorly written opinion piece, depending mostly on ad hominem attacks.

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Response to Galraedia (Original post)

Sat Jul 20, 2013, 10:32 PM

98. Wow! Great! What an excellent OP, with such a convincing article!

 

I think it's super you're quoting the Telegraph! Sure, it might seem disingenuous for the anti-Snowden crowd which prides itself on associating the man with right-wingers and libertarians to themselves associate with a right-wing British newspaper, but who cares! As long as we can keep using the guilt-by-association tactic, it doesn't matter how hypocritical we seem! Anyone who thinks we are is just racist.

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