Does anyone have a problem with people looking like this?

[jberryhill]

I spent some time in Beijing a while back, and it is very common for people to wear face masks there due to diesel and other particulate pollution.

You will also see Chinese tourists in the US, who are used to wearing these things, wearing them here. I saw some tourists in DC during the cherry blossom thing, walking around with them on.

It's also common for people almost anywhere with asthma to wear a face mask.

Does anyone have a problem with people going about in public looking like any of the following pictures:











Secondly, would you support the right of any jurisdiction to require Chinese tourists not to wear a face mask and a hat?

[question everything]

1. No. We started seeing Chinese wearing face mask during the SARS epidemic.

Good for them. They protect themselves and, if they are sick, protect the community.

I think we will be healthier if more sick people will wear a mask. And if the pollution level is high - why not protect themselves?

[jberryhill]

2. As long as they are not Muslim women, it's okay

It is no problem for a Chinese tourist to look like this:



But if a Muslim woman looks like this, big problem:

[dipsydoodle]

4. Fair observation.

.

[haikugal]

5. LOL.....

[Fumesucker]

13. Or black men

[question everything]

15. No, if they want to drive

Chinese, Muslim, black, red or green with pink polka dots:

You want to drive, you need a driver's license with a picture that shows your face. This woman looks like many others who cover their face except for the eyes.

I can assure you that all the Chinese in your photos remove their masks for picture taking. I've heard of a Muslim woman in Florida that refused to remove her veil. Don't remember how it ended.

[jberryhill]

16. I'm willing to bet this person has a driver's license

I've seen a lot of people like that on roads.

Whether their picture is on their license is a separate question from whether they can go about in public that way. They have licenses, and they cover their faces while driving.

[question everything]

64. And if they are stopped by police and have to show the license

they will remove their helmet so that their face can be compared to the photo.

I doubt that any male police officer can request a Muslim woman to remove her veil without a presence of a female officer. At least.

[jberryhill]

70. But that's not the issue

The issue is not about being stopped by police for concealing a face, is it. The circumstances in your post involve being stopped on probable cause for some other offense.

[surrealAmerican]

47. We didn't always require photos on driver's licenses.

Were more drivers "unsafe" before we did?

[question everything]

65. We did not always require air travelers to to through tight security and

to remove shoes and belts.

As recently as July 2001 I parked my car at the curb of a mid sized airport and ran to the gate to meet my spouse who just landed.

Requiring a photo on driver's license has nothing to do with safe drivers but about identification. You use it to pay by check - yeah, no longer used, either - you use it when you are ready to board a flight, you use it when you visit a doctor or check into a hospital, in addition to your insurance card. And... heavens forbid, you are found injured and unconscious, that's how you get identified.

[surrealAmerican]

66. Yet, for all this supposed "need" to be identified by photo ...

... we have not seen many tangible benefits. Has fraud become far more infrequent? Your username might be useful here.

[MADem]

76. I know I had a "fake ID" that was someone else's license (without a picture).

I'm dating myself, here!!! I know it enabled me to get into clubs when I was underage!

[HiPointDem]

22. +1

[haikugal]

3. No problem at all..

I've wondered if such masks are available in our country because it would make sense for people who are sick and out and about or who wanted to protect themselves from illness or pollution to use them. I would have a problem with any jurisdiction that required anyone to not wear a face mask, much less a hat, and would object.

I have issues with authoritarianism.

[LWolf]

6. I have a problem with people

NEEDING to wear face masks.

[MuseRider]

67. Finally!

Someone finally made that point! I was reading down the thread, knowing what was actually meant by the OP but hoping someone would say that.

LWolf, figures it was you

[octoberlib]

7. I have no problem with this at all. nt

[hfojvt]

8. reminds me of John Brunner's "The Sheep look Up"

Or maybe I am just riding the Austin Train


(In that book, Brunner describes a future America where people are forced to wear masks because the air is ubreathable. One of the heroes is the supposed eco-terrorist Austin Train. The book concludes with a guy on TV saying that models say the world could survive if the 200 million most wasteful people were eliminated and that we seemed to be well on our way to that "solution" and someone in South America asking "what is that smell?" to the reply "that is just America burning". In the book, Americans were shooting each other and blowing each other up and rioting.

[onehandle]

9. Most of the time, it's a simple doctor's disposable mask, which is almost 100% ineffective...

...against airborne germs and pollution. That's not what they were made for.

A few years ago my wife was in DC for a conference and I tagged along. During the day I would ride my bike around town, mostly through their incredible system of park and riverfront trails.

I wore a mask made out of neoprene with replaceable air filters, made specifically for riding in the city. 30 bucks instead of 30 cents. Much more effective.

I rode around the White House several times, masked, and nobody said a word.


They can wear them, but they are wasting their time unless they get a good one.

[JustAnotherGen]

10. They freak me

Last edited Wed Jul 24, 2013, 03:42 PM - Edit history (1)

Out. And what if Georgie Z is running around wearing one - how am I supposed to know to hit the ground before he pops off a bullet in my chest?

[Wednesdays]

11. They're very common in Japan

So common, at anime conventions in America, you'll see some kids wear surgical masks along with their cosplay costumes.

The difference is, in Japan it's to help prevent spreading of colds and flu, and not so much because of pollution.

[Scurrilous]

30. They have some cool ones in Japan:

http://tokyofashion.com/category/tokyo-street-snaps/

[closeupready]

38. But since the eyes are also mucous membranes, one wonders why

they don't cover those, as well.

[jberryhill]

44. Because the belief that these masks are effective is irrational

There are lots of places with bad air.

Wearing these sorts of masks is primarily an affectation in certain Asian cultures.

However, it is based on an irrational belief in their effectiveness.

Asian irrational beliefs are superior to other irrational beliefs.

[RebelOne]

12. Would not bother me, but I would be wondering why. n/t

[LeftinOH]

14. As long as they remember to take it off when going into a bank-

or most any retail establishment. Bank security guards aren't going to respond well if you walk in wearing a face mask... germophobia or not.

[Demoiselle]

59. What LeftinOH said...(nt)

[morningfog]

17. It doesn't matter to me what anyone wears. I will add, that it is sad and troubling

that we have done so much damage to our world that they are needed.

[jberryhill]

45. They aren't needed and aren't effective

People wear them due to an irrational belief in them.

[morningfog]

48. They don't help with asthma at all?

They don't help keep any pollutants out?

Like I said, I don't care what anyone wears. Even if they don't serve the purpose the wearer thinks they do, the reason for their belief is still troubling.

[cherokeeprogressive]

60. Never seen an operating room without one on everyone's face...

What's up with that? Are they ineffectual and unnecessary there as well?

[ManiacJoe]

68. Yes, necessary and effectual. But probably not

... for the reasons you think.

[jberryhill]

73. Are bodily fluids generally splattering around your city?

[bigwillq]

18. No

They can wear whatever they want.

[Comrade Grumpy]

19. They could be terrorists.

Because terrorists always walk around in public wearing masks.

[KittyWampus]

20. they are wearing it for health reasons. Apologists of misogyny suck. Western Cultural has evolved

at least past that stage. Oops, and large parts of middle eastern culture has too.

[HiPointDem]

23. lol. what a stupid comment.

[LanternWaste]

34. Can't disagree with your sentiment.

"Apologists of misogyny suck..."

Can't disagree with your sentiment. Far too many people pretending to be clever yet simply advertising their own obsequiousness in the face of idiocy. Bless their little hearts.

[jberryhill]

43. Use of the word "suck" as a pejorative is kinda interesting....

One who might fellate a male is an object of derision. While there are both men and women who do so, the "insult value" derives from attribution of what many consider to be a feminine aspect of such an act.

[jberryhill]

46. What are those health reasons?

You do know that these masks have zero effectiveness in relation to the reasons why certain Asian societies believe in them.

[leftynyc]

21. They're wearing those for health reasons

If you think you're fooling anyone with this crap, you'd be wrong. Face veils and burqas are misogynist and disgusting.

[HiPointDem]

25. ridiculous. it's the same thing. you're not objecting to the veil, you're objecting to your

reading of the meaning of the veil.

[uppityperson]

27. A surgical face mask is the same thing as a burqa? Huh.

[HiPointDem]

32. i meant 'same thing' = covering the same bits of anatomy. i should have been more clear.

your objection is not to coverting those bits, but the meaning you read in it.

[jberryhill]

40. Of course...

There are people who have OCD - an irrational belief - who wear face masks.

As pointed out in the thread, those masks actually don't accomplish much, but people wear them in the irrational belief the masks are effective.

Some irrational beliefs get a pass. Some don't.

[Scootaloo]

56. You're incorrect on BOTH counts

They're wearing those for health reasons

In the same way my little sister demanded a band-aid when she had chicken pox, because she felt better wearing one while sick. it didn't actually help in any way except to make her a little more comfortable. These masks are designed to keep splashes out of the surgeon's mouth - and to keep drops from his mouth and nose from getting into the patient. They're not for fine particles, which any idiot can see just go around the edges of the mask.

Face veils and burqas are misogynist and disgusting.

Nope. What's misogynist is the act of forcing a woman to do something. Clothing is just cloth, it has no ethical standpoint. If a woman does not want to wear it and is forced to do so, that's misogynist. If a woman wants to wear it and is forced not to, that is still misogynist.

But hey, keep on posing. The rest of us know what's up.

[Tikki]

24. I like to shop at the big Thrift stores but all the lint from the clothing being...

shuffled around gets in the air and I get killer headaches. I have never worn a mask per se, but I have
placed a handi-wipe over my nose or stepped outside a bit between handling the merchandise.


Tikki

[leveymg]

26. I would Mace them until they remove the offending covering, but they're already prepared.

This is the same problem we ran into in all our land wars in Asia, so we'll fight them in the water this time.

[geek tragedy]

28. Only if they shave their heads

[Igel]

29. No, but unrelated to the question you want an answer to.

That's disengenuous bordering on deceitful and manipulative.

The Chinese would remove them for their ID pictures or when asked to do so for ID purposes. That's not the case with some Muslim women in the US. The cases are similar, but dogs and cats are similar. Let's not go so far to say as they're really the same. Meow-woof!

The French are different. In the last 200 years, from the reaction of the Catholic Church in the Revolution, as well as in supporting monarchist restorations, the Church--and by extension all religion--has been excised from public life. It has no relevance except to the extent that there are vestiges. Things like Ascension Day still being a national holiday. Hard to get rid of national holidays, even if most people don't go to church on them.

Islam has no claim on the public sphere in France. It's not discriminatory against Islam; in fact, it's being even-handed in dealing with religion.

But even this misses two points. The first is whether to defend the indigenous culture or not. It's something that DU would split over, but I've seen the same problem in Prague. Given a large influx of Americans in the early '90s a lof of the indigenous population resented having foreigners with no allegiance dictate terms to them. They were prepared to be tolerant, but not subservient. When in Rome, you do as the Romans do. I'd expect American retirees to Mexico to have respect for local customs and traditions. Same in France.

The thing is, France was a nation state without just one nation. In the 1800s it, like other European states, built a nation-state. In Brittany, in Aquitaine, over in Alsace, in the Occitan region, French spread. Not only there--standard French largely wiped out the patois. There are traces of them left, but not the sharp dialectal divisions that were documented in the 1870s and 1880s during the school survey. While the nation-state's frayed, it's still largely in place. There is mostly a homogeneous culture that is, in many areas, indigenous. They still like to have immigrants assimilate to the indigenous culture. The Chinese are still doing this, by the way, in the great wave of assimilation to all things Han.

The second point is the banlieus. That's where you find the full veils. It's also where you find some of the highest crime rates. It's also where you find the highest rates of resentment and rejection of all things French, even as the French support those in the banlieus. If there's a riot, you don't want to rush in to arrest them just to find that 20 "women" are walking away--and that if you ask them to remove their veil for ID purposes, well, you've set up the next riot because of the massive amounts of disrespect you've shown. Which brings us right back to identification. In this context, wearing a Richard-Nixon mask or a full veil amounts to the same thing.

[jberryhill]

41. But they do remove them for photo ID's

The law is not about whether people remove them for photo ID's or other legitimate purposes. It is a blanket ban on covering one's face for religious reasons.

As many have pointed out, the wearing of face masks against "air pollution" is largely ineffective, and is also based on the irrational belief that they are effective.

How do you suppose that Muslim women immigrants to France got there on airplanes and using passports?

[olddots]

33. I have a problem with it because they're getting ripped off

those masks are for sanding and not even good for painting .

[LanternWaste]

35. It's gotta be a pretty messed up region if one "chooses" to wear these

It's gotta be a pretty messed up region if one is coerced to wear these rather than face even worse consequences.

(Coercion may refer to man or environment, and consequences may refer to man or bad health... I suppose that's the beauty of inane analogies.)

But, as we often rationalize the irrational...

[jberryhill]

42. Do you believe those masks actually do anything re: air pollution?

The assumption seems to be that the masks are "necessitated" by air pollution.

MOST people in Beijing do not wear them.

I didn't when I was there, but I will say that after awhile I had a scratchy throat. The air in New Delhi, however, is a fuckload worse, primarily because it is dusty as all get out. What collects in your nostrils there can grow crops. That's why you see so many lovely twilight pictures from India - the air sucks and the chromatic dispersion makes for good pictures.

[Deep13]

36. Hard to object to a medical necessity.

It would be like objecting to wheelchairs or service dogs. Also,what is really alarming about that is that the air in some places is bad enough to need them.

[jberryhill]

39. It's medically necessary in DC?

That's where I saw Chinese people wearing them after my trip to Beijing.

[Deep13]

49. depends.

it's pretty easy to pick up a rhino virus or even influenza in a new location.

even still, it is a bit odd.

[jberryhill]

51. But in some societies, it is common

[Deep13]

90. Not this one. nt

[treestar]

37. No.

As long as people can see where they are going, they can wear what they want.

They can wear a ski mask if they want - it has a purpose other than disguise.

The French are being silly to make such a law - it will stir up trouble and that's about it. What problem were they allegedly solving?

[Shankapotomus]

50. I think it's a good practice

especially in terms of those who wear masks not to spread germs when they aren't feeling well. It shows consideration for others and I think the practice should be adopted everywhere. I like it.

[elleng]

52. No problem with those 'attachments'

tho not particularly attractive, and I would NOT support the 'right' of any jurisdiction to require Chinese (or any OTHER) tourists not to wear a face mask and a hat.

[Eddie Haskell]

53. I have a problem with people needing to look like that.

[liberal N proud]

54. Necessary for some for survival

Necessary in some places for survival.

I have been in China and seen this and seen the air quality, I understand why they would.

[JNelson6563]

55. Could be just a matter of time...

before we are all wearing such masks. Still, for the here and now, I can't imagine having a problem with this.

Julie

[Aerows]

57. If it is cold as hell

I reserve the right to wear whatever in the hell I need to wear to keep from getting frostbite. What is cold as hell is a right reserved by me to determine, or what is threatening to my health is reserved by me to be determined, and no one else. I nearly froze to fucking death in DC because I'm a Southerner and didn't realize that wearing a hat in January is necessary.

[postulater]

58. Coal Fly Ash might make you do that.

My local power plant uses coal as fuel. The tiny particles that aren't caught by the filters can cause long-term problems even while not acutely damaging.

Ultra-fine and nano-particulate materials resulting from mixtures of coal and non-coal fuels combustion for power generation release to the air components with toxic potential. We evaluated toxicological and inflammatory effects at cellular level that could be induced by ultrafine/nanoparticles-containing ashes from burning mixtures of coal and tires from an American power plant. Coal fly ashes (CFA) samples from the combustion of high-S coal and tire-derived fuel, the latter about 2-3% of the total fuel feed, in a 100-MW cyclone utility boiler, were suspended in the cell culture medium of RAW 264.7 macrophages. Cell viability, assessed by MTT reduction, SRB incorporation and contrast-phase microscopy analysis demonstrated that CFA did not induce acute toxicity. However, CFA at 1mg/mL induced an increase of approximately 338% in intracellular TNF-?, while release of this proinflammatory cytokine was increased by 1.6-fold. The expression of the inflammatory mediator CD40 receptor was enhanced by 2-fold, the receptor for advanced glycation endproducts (RAGE) had a 5.7-fold increase and the stress response protein HSP70 was increased nearly 12-fold by CFA at 1mg/mL. Although CFA did not induce cell death, parameters of oxidative stress and reactive species production were found to be altered at several degrees, such as nitrite accumulation (22% increase), DCFH oxidation (3.5-fold increase), catalase (5-fold increase) and superoxide dismutase (35% inhibition) activities, lipoperoxidation (4.2 fold-increase) and sulfhydryl oxidation (40% decrease in free SH groups). The present results suggest that CFA containing ultra-fine and nano-particulate materials from coal and tire combustion may induce sub-chronic cell damage, as they alter inflammatory and oxidative stress parameters at the molecular and cellular levels, but do not induce acute cell death.

[link:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=23856402|

[darkangel218]

84. I live close to a Coal plant as well. scary thing...

[cherokeeprogressive]

61. Personally I don't give a damn who wears what, as long as they take it off for photo ID pictures...

and agree to remove them to verify who they are when it's needed such as when in a bank or using a credit /debit card.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

62. No. When I was in China and Hong Kong this past May I saw it all the time

Some people are deathly afraid of disease in public places, and of course people in polluted Beijing are doing what they can fighting a losing cause against the pollution they are living with.

Both are public health reasons for donning masks, and not similar at all to the wearing of hijabs or burkhas.

[jberryhill]

71. Explain the "public health" reasons

Specifically what, in your mind, is the effectiveness of these masks to Asians, which is not actually effective to people in non-Asian cities.

[Ruby the Liberal]

63. I would suggest they not walk into a bank like that

Silent alarms would be triggered before they even got to the teller ticket area.

[jberryhill]

72. There are plenty of banks in Beijing

But none of the people pictured are, in fact, walking into a bank.

[u4ic]

69. Lots of people from Asia in my city

I've seen people wearing simple dust masks, also latex gloves (workers at Asian grocery stores).

I'm in Canada, btw.

[IDemo]

74. Of course not. But not all masks are created equal

Facemasks may help shield the heart from pollution

(Reuters Health) - Heavy air pollution can have immediate effects on the heart and blood vessels, but a simple facemask may offer some protection, new research suggests.

In one study, researchers found that when young men were exposed to air polluted with diesel exhaust, their arteries temporarily stiffened.

Meanwhile, a second study showed that healthy adults had higher blood pressure and a less healthy heart-rate pattern when they walked through the streets of Beijing without a facemask.

The good news, the study found, was that the cardiovascular effects were diminished when volunteers donned a facemask like those worn by construction workers to keep from breathing dust.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2009/03/16/us-facemasks-help-shield-heart-pollution-idUSTRE52F4C720090316

See the caveat at the end of the article: masks used by construction workers to filter dust work better than those commonly sold to pedestrians and bicyclists (and I'd bet those used in cleanrooms work best).

[jberryhill]

75. i.e. respirators

Not paper surgical masks.

[Historic NY]

77. Problem is they really are more of a panacea than anything else..

the air is foul, w/o proper filters and masks the simple cloth, paper etc mask don't do much. I wonder how often they are cleaned in clean water.

[jberryhill]

78. I believe you may mean "placebo"

[Historic NY]

80. "A remedy believed to cure all disease"...

I'll say to prevent the disease.

[Egalitarian Thug]

79. I have a big problem with the fact that they are necessary. That what you're looking for? n/t

[jberryhill]

82. Necessary for what?

[apnu]

87. The gray pollution hanging in the background of the pictures

That's what the poster is concerned about. So am I.

[Egalitarian Thug]

89. Breathing, I assume. n/t

[forestpath]

81. Interesting how women AND men wear them.

[NBachers]

83. The Vietnamese woman who lives in my home uses one frequently- she's sensitive to dust

and feels like she's protected when she wears it.

We'll go out on our night-time walk up San Francisco hills tonight. If she passes someone smoking, or a smelly car exhaust, she'll pull it out and use it.

People sometimes ask her where they can get some masks like she has.

I've told her to find a source in Vietnam and import some, and we'll start marketing them to stores in our city. As people get used to seeing and wearing them, I think they will become more common.

So, no, I have no problem with anyone who wants to wear one, and I expect the laws to respect those who feel the need to.

[darkangel218]

85. I always have one ready on a transatlantic flight

Just in case I'm sitting near someone who is coughing or sneezing.

It works wonders

[apnu]

86. I looked at these pictures and thought: "Holy cow! look at the pollution in the background!" (nt)

[womanofthehills]

88. Many of the masks have carbon and charcoal filters

When I had environmental illness, I would wear a mask while pumping gas or being around pollutants that would make my throat close. I had a charcoal one and it helped big time. I often see cancer patients whose immune systems are down wearing masks when they shop at the grocery store.

I get so tired of the black and white thinking on this site especially relating to health issues.

[Bluenorthwest]

91. I see photos of both men and women wearing these masks and each person is also

individually dressed. They are not all in duplicate costumes including duplicate face coverings, the objective of the garb is not to hide as one of a thousand identical images in identical outfits. Even the masks are different.
So to answer your question these masks do make me wonder if the wearers are ill and thus a danger to me, or if they are imagining a danger form me. But they do no cause me to confuse the woman in the white coat with the cop or the woman in the blue coat. I would avoid the people, as they clearly wish to be avoided.
So if the idea is that this is analogous to a gender specific cookie cutter uniform making everyone look alike by hiding all personal identification I can not agree at all. It is not even close. It is like saying 'If you like my three piece suit, you have to like your teen age daughter in a g string. You like clothing but just not that clothing? If you are not against all clothing, how can you object to a string bikini on a 12 year old at church? Double standard much?