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gulliver

(13,180 posts)
Thu Jul 25, 2013, 08:18 PM Jul 2013

Has the NSA metadata program resulted in known harm to anyone?

The Drug War is a vicious mass killer and mass destroyer of lives. Why are people wasting political ammo on NSA programs that haven't been shown to do any harm to anyone? Give us Barabbas?

School me.

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Has the NSA metadata program resulted in known harm to anyone? (Original Post) gulliver Jul 2013 OP
it has harmed constitutional rights. PowerToThePeople Jul 2013 #1
Besides all the hand wringing, hair on fire, wailing, and gnashing of teeth? FSogol Jul 2013 #2
Do you think that those people who have been harmed can prove it? midnight Jul 2013 #3
The people harmed by the Drug War can. gulliver Jul 2013 #6
Theoretically the Patriot Act was supposed to be about stopping terrorism Fumesucker Jul 2013 #4
So end the Drug War. gulliver Jul 2013 #7
The Drug War has been going for generations now Fumesucker Jul 2013 #11
Agree 100% truebluegreen Jul 2013 #13
"It is about keeping certain groups down" NoOneMan Jul 2013 #23
Once again, I agree. truebluegreen Jul 2013 #27
Imagine putting a machine gun in a mall NoOneMan Jul 2013 #5
We have this idea that the government can... gulliver Jul 2013 #9
Is creating.... NoOneMan Jul 2013 #21
that is actually a good analogy arely staircase Jul 2013 #16
Of course. But humans can do two things at once. Right? NoOneMan Jul 2013 #22
yes, we can multitask arely staircase Jul 2013 #26
I answered your "false dilemma" objection in post 32 below. gulliver Jul 2013 #33
+1 Incitatus Jul 2013 #37
Is there some part of SECRET... 99Forever Jul 2013 #8
how the hell would we know? elehhhhna Jul 2013 #10
probably not, however arely staircase Jul 2013 #12
The Drug War takes people's rights and futures away wholesale. gulliver Jul 2013 #14
Indeed, one is potential abuse and the other is genuine arely staircase Jul 2013 #15
false dillema and burdon of proof fallacies markiv Jul 2013 #18
I anticipated this incorrect "false dilemma" objection gulliver Jul 2013 #32
The loss of rights of privacy, among others, results in great harm to everyone. n/t Skip Intro Jul 2013 #17
And that harm is...? (nt) Recursion Jul 2013 #25
Human dignity. Existing without your existence being monitored and approved. NoOneMan Jul 2013 #28
And you know you are being monitored because...? randome Jul 2013 #36
Are you asserting our metadata is not being collected and parsed? NoOneMan Jul 2013 #41
It's copied into a 'locked box' system that can't be looked at without 4 levels of approval. randome Jul 2013 #42
Its will always be looked at, but not always by humans NoOneMan Jul 2013 #43
"A single approved individual". randome Jul 2013 #44
Warrants are a waste of time and law enforcement resources NoOneMan Jul 2013 #45
russian missiles in cuba in 1962 hadnt hurt anyone either markiv Jul 2013 #19
How about NSA-Corporate collusion? agent46 Jul 2013 #20
"Quite likely" sounds like more evidence-less paranoia. randome Jul 2013 #38
Obviously, I'm speculating agent46 Jul 2013 #46
IIRC that's why all the lawsuits have been thrown out over standing Recursion Jul 2013 #24
We only keep those rights we are willing to defend. Agnosticsherbet Jul 2013 #29
Do you think they're actually separate? Pholus Jul 2013 #30
Have you been on vacation? marions ghost Jul 2013 #31
Who knows? It's a secret. Everything is a secret. nt tsuki Jul 2013 #34
The Drug War is one of the worst atrocities ever perpetrated against the American people. AllINeedIsCoffee Jul 2013 #35
How do we demonstrate harm to your satisfaction? Savannahmann Jul 2013 #39
It may not have done any harm but in the future in the wrong hands it will. (n/t) spin Jul 2013 #40
Many things are potentially harmful. moondust Jul 2013 #47
I'll school you mick063 Jul 2013 #48

Fumesucker

(45,851 posts)
4. Theoretically the Patriot Act was supposed to be about stopping terrorism
Thu Jul 25, 2013, 08:30 PM
Jul 2013

As we know all too well, in theory theory and practice are identical, in practice they are not.

There have been a few more prosecutions for drugs than for terrorism under the Patriot Act.

Fumesucker

(45,851 posts)
11. The Drug War has been going for generations now
Thu Jul 25, 2013, 08:38 PM
Jul 2013

There are zero people alive that can remember a time when some recreational substances were not illegal.

It's part of the culture now, even here on DU it's hard to get people to understand what it would be like to end the drug war, practically every conversation about drugs has assumptions cooked into it that the drug war has created.



 

truebluegreen

(9,033 posts)
13. Agree 100%
Thu Jul 25, 2013, 09:04 PM
Jul 2013

There have been illegal drugs for a century, and the "Drug War" per se has been going on since Nixon. But all of it is stupid and pointless--in reality it is not about doing away with drugs--and aimed at a particular segments of the population. It is about keeping certain groups down, as was Prohibition.

It has never made society as a whole better. It needs to be ended, and not only in the US.

 

NoOneMan

(4,795 posts)
23. "It is about keeping certain groups down"
Thu Jul 25, 2013, 09:42 PM
Jul 2013

Which is exactly what this spy state is all about. These two subjects intersect, and I have no doubt privacy intrusions will be used to put undesirables away on any offenses, but most notably, recreational drugs (everyone does it, and therefore, everyone can be targeted and silenced once there is an apparatus to prove guilt).

 

truebluegreen

(9,033 posts)
27. Once again, I agree.
Thu Jul 25, 2013, 09:49 PM
Jul 2013

It is about having a quiver full of arrows just in case they are needed. If a person doesn't cause trouble, no problem. If he or she does, the PTB have all the weapons they need. ETA: Doesn't even matter if something is true: as long as it can be alleged, and could be / looks true...

 

NoOneMan

(4,795 posts)
5. Imagine putting a machine gun in a mall
Thu Jul 25, 2013, 08:32 PM
Jul 2013

While it sits there, its not harming anyone. Anyone bitching about it obviously isn't paying attention to priorities. Though, once it starts harming people, bitching about it will accomplish nothing.

There is a dangerous ubiquitous apparatus being constructed around us. Either we do something about it while it is being birthed, or we wait until it is exploited to damage people (and can never be removed). Its your choice

The drug war sucks too. Its unfortunate we can't do two things at once

gulliver

(13,180 posts)
9. We have this idea that the government can...
Thu Jul 25, 2013, 08:36 PM
Jul 2013

...create an inescapable, irreversible, prison for us all where rights mean nothing. But that's just a fantasy. It's a ghost on the distant horizon at worst. We have an ongoing social catastrophe in the Drug War.

 

NoOneMan

(4,795 posts)
21. Is creating....
Thu Jul 25, 2013, 09:38 PM
Jul 2013

And if the Patriot Act is any indication, it will be used in full to pursue crimes of all kinds, including those in the drug war.

arely staircase

(12,482 posts)
16. that is actually a good analogy
Thu Jul 25, 2013, 09:12 PM
Jul 2013

but the drug war machine gun has been mowing down innocents for decades. doesn't mean we shouldn't end the metadata searches too. but I see the OPs point about which is the bigger problem.

 

NoOneMan

(4,795 posts)
22. Of course. But humans can do two things at once. Right?
Thu Jul 25, 2013, 09:39 PM
Jul 2013

Yeah, drug war is shit. But by no means is that a "reason" to not want to dismantle this spy state that will make the drug war 10X worse.

99Forever

(14,524 posts)
8. Is there some part of SECRET...
Thu Jul 25, 2013, 08:33 PM
Jul 2013

... ,as in there is no information available to answer your bait question, because it is being hidden from We the People, you fail to comprehend?

 

elehhhhna

(32,076 posts)
10. how the hell would we know?
Thu Jul 25, 2013, 08:36 PM
Jul 2013



and yeah, it's certainly costing a shitton of borrowed federal spending, that's fersure

arely staircase

(12,482 posts)
12. probably not, however
Thu Jul 25, 2013, 08:41 PM
Jul 2013

it is certainly fertile ground for the genuine abuse of someone's rights and political oppression needs to be stopped.

gulliver

(13,180 posts)
14. The Drug War takes people's rights and futures away wholesale.
Thu Jul 25, 2013, 09:06 PM
Jul 2013

It is real, devastating, industrial-scale oppression. We shouldn't be arguing with anyone over trifles while it is happening. We need to stay cool about the stuff that isn't doing harm so we can create cooperation to end the stuff that is.

arely staircase

(12,482 posts)
15. Indeed, one is potential abuse and the other is genuine
Thu Jul 25, 2013, 09:10 PM
Jul 2013

and ongoing. I got a resolution passed at my Democratic County convention in 1988 to end the drug war.

 

markiv

(1,489 posts)
18. false dillema and burdon of proof fallacies
Thu Jul 25, 2013, 09:18 PM
Jul 2013
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/false-dilemma.html

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/burden-of-proof.html

those bothered by the NSA spying owe no explanation to anyone about their own priorities of concerns - it is a valid concern on it's face

for that matter, global warming is an even bigger threat than the drug war - why are you speaking out about the drug war, when you should be speaking out about global warming?

gulliver

(13,180 posts)
32. I anticipated this incorrect "false dilemma" objection
Thu Jul 25, 2013, 10:02 PM
Jul 2013

I'll answer on your post, because you took the trouble to look up fallacies. I wish more people did that. But knowing about the fallacies and using them properly when objecting to an argument are two very different things. You know about them, but you aren't using them correctly in this case. It's not checkers.

The Drug War vs. the "NSA issue" dilemma is not false. Rhetoric trumps logic. You can't argue with your neighbor about his annoying cat staying out of your lilies and then expect him to let you borrow firewood. The two aren't (obviously) logically related, but the dilemma is very real.

And asking for proof that the NSA programs cause harm is not an invalid attempt to shift the burden of proof. If you complain about something, the burden of proof is on you to explain why you are complaining. You can then make an argument that you are arguing against future harm, but it will not withstand serious scrutiny. If elaborating on what you are complaining about is difficult, you have no argument.

See: Republican fear of being asked for examples.

 

NoOneMan

(4,795 posts)
28. Human dignity. Existing without your existence being monitored and approved.
Thu Jul 25, 2013, 09:49 PM
Jul 2013

This is an abstract, subjective "good" that humans have always valued, just like "freedom of speech".

Being silenced can cause no financial or physical harm, yet free speech is always fought for and is as abstract of a "right" as privacy. Just because we are not as in touch with this abstract "good" does not mean it is no longer of any value.

If you no longer find this abstract human construct to be of value, you should advocate striking such from the constitution. In the meantime, inhibiting it surely causes harm as we have defined it to do so. Frankly, any violation of our constitutional rights is considered "harmful", regardless of whether doing such causes monetary or bodily harm.

 

randome

(34,845 posts)
36. And you know you are being monitored because...?
Thu Jul 25, 2013, 10:19 PM
Jul 2013

[hr][font color="blue"][center]I'm always right. When I'm wrong I admit it.
So then I'm right about being wrong.
[/center][/font][hr]

 

randome

(34,845 posts)
42. It's copied into a 'locked box' system that can't be looked at without 4 levels of approval.
Thu Jul 25, 2013, 10:55 PM
Jul 2013

Carl Bernstein thinks this is a robust system. I agree.

And any programs they run for pattern matching is done without regard to identity. In other words, a computer program is not aware of whose number is whose.

If there is evidence the information is being abused, let's look at it and let the chips fall where they may.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]I'm always right. When I'm wrong I admit it.
So then I'm right about being wrong.
[/center][/font][hr]

 

NoOneMan

(4,795 posts)
43. Its will always be looked at, but not always by humans
Thu Jul 25, 2013, 11:05 PM
Jul 2013

If an algorithm can only analyze the metadata of a single approved individual, it can do nothing. It must know who/what else that person is contacting and communicating with to determine anything (and perhaps a relation away to determine if those nodes are to be flagged as well). If a single subject is analyzed, its metadata signature must be explored in full to create a profile and do risk assessment. An algorithm must therefore examine adjacent nodes, and perhaps entire networks of nodes, prior to being able to flag anyone for further examination. Our entire metadata fingerprints will be formed and examined in real time, at all times, to just make this thing work.

Little copies of who we are, what we are, what we think, what stimulates us, etc, (reflections of our personalities and interests) are our metadata fingerprints, like reflections in the mirror, and they will always exist because they are being analyzed by algorithms. whether or not humans take a "closer look" is actually irrelevant to whether or not our actions are being monitored and analyzed by an intelligent system. Its worse than the government secretely taking everyone's urine sames and fingerprints in their sleep. Its like breaking into everyone's psychiatrists office and feeding their files to an intelligent machine that is "watching" these faceless copies of who we are (so I give a damn if it takes an approval process to put a face on our "metadata fingerprints&quot .

 

randome

(34,845 posts)
44. "A single approved individual".
Thu Jul 25, 2013, 11:11 PM
Jul 2013

So you would be okay with this kind of analysis so long as the NSA had to go to every single telecom in the country with a warrant to determine the same information?

Seems like a waste of time and law enforcement resources to me. Of course another alternative would be to set up secure FTP servers and then contact all the telecoms and have them transmit any pertinent information to the NSA and then analyze it.

Which method makes more sense? Which would result in more time and cost savings, with the supposition, of course, that time may be of the essence in the case of a terrorist or pedophile ring?

I'd say the method currently being used by the NSA is the more useful one in terms of money, time, resources and the exigency of stopping crimes.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]I'm always right. When I'm wrong I admit it.
So then I'm right about being wrong.
[/center][/font][hr]

 

NoOneMan

(4,795 posts)
45. Warrants are a waste of time and law enforcement resources
Thu Jul 25, 2013, 11:25 PM
Jul 2013

And that's ok by me.


I'd say the method currently being used by the NSA is the more useful one in terms of money, time, resources and the exigency of stopping crimes


I don't care about how useful it is. That's irrelevant to me. Its not my job. They can figure it out. I care about our "metadata fingerprints" being constructed, maintain, stored, monitored and analyzed for risk by human or artificial intelligence. These are direct and revealing reflections of who we are--moreso than DNA, urine and fingerprints--and it directly violates our privacy

agent46

(1,262 posts)
20. How about NSA-Corporate collusion?
Thu Jul 25, 2013, 09:25 PM
Jul 2013

Quite Likely, this "meta-data program" has already granted access to NSA-aligned corporations to be used against "enemies." The definition of war has been rewritten since 9/11 and the line between security state and corporation has been all but erased.

It's also not likely most civilian targets would ever discover or even suspect the source of damage done to their lives by misuse of these surveillance programs. Shit happens. How would anyone know how many have already been harmed?

This is one of the hidden dangers of the corporate state that no one seems to discuss. It's as if a lot of people still don't believe corruption and influence are the only currency of power these days.

 

randome

(34,845 posts)
38. "Quite likely" sounds like more evidence-less paranoia.
Thu Jul 25, 2013, 10:22 PM
Jul 2013

You have read about this stuff, right? The metadata is copied files maintained in a 'locked box' system that requires 4 levels of approval to look at.

Carl Bernstein said it looked to him like the NSA has good safeguards in place to prevent abuse. But I guess you haven't looked at the evidence, right?
[hr][font color="blue"][center]I'm always right. When I'm wrong I admit it.
So then I'm right about being wrong.
[/center][/font][hr]

agent46

(1,262 posts)
46. Obviously, I'm speculating
Thu Jul 25, 2013, 11:26 PM
Jul 2013

I do know from history though, that the people with the keys are corruptible, especially given the current political environment where the law says whatever the secret court wants it to say.

But thanks for the Carl Bernstein reality check, I feel much better now.



Recursion

(56,582 posts)
24. IIRC that's why all the lawsuits have been thrown out over standing
Thu Jul 25, 2013, 09:43 PM
Jul 2013

Without demonstrating harm is hard to seek remedy. If NSA info wound up in a Federal criminal case, that could get interesting.

Pholus

(4,062 posts)
30. Do you think they're actually separate?
Thu Jul 25, 2013, 09:54 PM
Jul 2013

Without any evidence (it is a secret afterall), I fully believe that metadata intel is made available to those fighting the War on Drugs and for other non-terrorism uses. With a dataset that obviously powerful, how could there NOT be mission creep into other federal law enforcement activities?

That NYT story already made it plain that dragnet surveillance intel has already made its way to terrorism prosecutors but with some kind of deal that it can't be directly credited. Another "tipoff" event has to be invented to remove the NSA fingerprints.

Certainly the revelations struck a very raw nerve - there is something worse than merely trade secrets and I would put my money on law enforcement overreach.



marions ghost

(19,841 posts)
31. Have you been on vacation?
Thu Jul 25, 2013, 09:57 PM
Jul 2013

This question has been hashed to death.

You can't know what it's done or what the plans are for it. That's the problem.
Duh

 

AllINeedIsCoffee

(772 posts)
35. The Drug War is one of the worst atrocities ever perpetrated against the American people.
Thu Jul 25, 2013, 10:06 PM
Jul 2013

With real tangible damage to lives.

The NSA? Not so much.

But I'll be the first to criticize it if the data they collect is ever used to do things like enforce asinine drug laws.

 

Savannahmann

(3,891 posts)
39. How do we demonstrate harm to your satisfaction?
Thu Jul 25, 2013, 10:25 PM
Jul 2013

It is one of those nearly impossible questions. You might as well ask how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

Civil Rights are not something to be taken lightly. Nor are they something to be considered "in balance". They are things we must fight for, and defend with our last strength. Because once lost, they are never regained easily.

Today, Eric Holder announced that the Justice Department would ask the Courts to allow the implementation of the Voter Rights Act requirements on Texas. Because one person was harmed. Just one is not more than enough, it is too many by a thousandth. That is a Civil Right we should fight for, and oppose any effort to disenfranchise anyone. But if we use your metric, how many must be harmed before we should care? Do we need to wait until a reasonable fraction of a group is harmed? What is the fraction? How many?

America has a long history with abuses of power, and while many have forgotten, even here, I for one do not intend to march down that road again. Hoover's secret files kept Washington in fear of what disclosures he could make to harm someone who crossed him. The Army and FBI kept many secret operations from FDR, and Truman including the Venona Project. Imagine that, the Army deciding that the President was untrustworthy after consulting with J. Edgar Hoover. Could that happen today? Why couldn't it? FDR was the one who helped get Hoover into the FBI along with another man named Donovan. Donovan ran the OSS during World War II, and was purportedly in a constant battle over who had espionage responsibility, the OSS or the FBI, with Hoover. Yes, Hoover wanted all the spying to go through his office.

McCarthy and his secret lists of suspected Communists. You could get off the list, but you had to name someone else or better yet several someone else's.

Too many secrets, and too much power, has never been handled well by anyone in Washington. Douglas Adams had a theory that I am beginning to consider wise beyond it's time. His theory was that anyone who wanted the Power that went with an elected office, was the one person who never should be trusted with it. Take it further, anyone who wants to have a Top Secret Clearance, shouldn't be allowed to have one.

So what harm must be wrought upon us before we even start talking about reigning it in? What harm did Hoover's secret files cause? Will we ever know the secrets that were used to change the course of who knows how many policies?

But let's take it a step back shall we. What good does it do? Don't give me the dozens or hundreds of terrorist attacks. I can make that claim about a comic strip and you could not disprove it any easier than I can with notional threats to even more notional targets. Let's look at it for real. In every case that has made the news, some dolt has talked to someone, who called the cops, who put him in touch with the FBI. Suddenly the loner has dozens of friends, all of whom are Federal Agents, and all of whom are part of the big conspiracy. The most recent one was two guys who walked into a Synagogue and offered to wipe out Israel's enemies. The Rabbi called the FBI. Next they went to the KKK, and asked for some help, and get this, the KKK turned them in too. They were charged with manufacturing a WMD in the form of an X-Ray generator. This was an X-Ray bomb powered from a cigarette lighter. I imagine, after a few months, you might get enough from it to increase your cancer risks slightly.

So what good does this program do? It allows someone to target members of groups. If the Republicans are in office, anyone who comes to this site will be marked, and put on watch lists, and they'll keep an eye on us as the digital extension of Nixon's enemies list.

So what would be the harm of that? Perhaps none, but perhaps you would be denied a job at a port because they think you are too radical to be issued a TWIC card. Perhaps you will lose your job at an airport because your TWIC card renewal is declined. Perhaps your targeted for more harassment by the IRS, or perhaps they'll decide you are not a fit parent for your children. What they can do is nearly unlimited. What they will do is left to the whims of those with this information, and how much power we give them.

I say power we give them. Remember, this is supposed to be a Government Of the people, By the People, and FOR the people. We were never intended to be subjects to the Government. We call the House of Representatives the People's house. Should we change that to the House that rules the People?

That's why it matters. It lays the ground work for massive abuse by whomever is bored enough to abuse it. And for those who say that it will never be abused, I'll call bullshit now. The NCIC was intended for official use only. Yet every cop runs his daughters new boyfriend through it. Every secretary runs their neighbors through. Everyone abuses that system, oh they have great excuses, but it was something we were told would NEVER happen when they cranked it up. Power corrupts.

moondust

(19,974 posts)
47. Many things are potentially harmful.
Fri Jul 26, 2013, 12:33 AM
Jul 2013

Cars can and do kill!
Airplanes can and do kill!
Knives can and do kill!
...!

On the other hand, they weren't designed and built to kill and are useful tools when used responsibly.

It may be that some people are looking at the NSA thing and focusing on the POTENTIAL down side without recognizing what it was designed and built to do when used responsibly. Unlike the examples above, the problem with the NSA is that no matter what anybody says or discloses about it, it is nearly impossible for the public to verify for themselves. You would either have to work there in the departments in question or know somebody who does and is willing to tell you. Otherwise you just about have to trust somebody in the government to tell you the truth and do the right thing about it if necessary.

The wall of secrecy makes it easy for attention seekers and others to stoke fear and paranoia in the public about how the NSA kills, even though it may be in responsible hands doing what it was legitimately designed and built to do and nothing else.

 

mick063

(2,424 posts)
48. I'll school you
Fri Jul 26, 2013, 12:37 AM
Jul 2013

It is classified.

The last thing you are supposed to know is how it may harm someone.

The nation is on a mission to bring back the only person that seems willing to give you the answer you want. Unfortunately for you, the trial will not be open for public consumption.

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