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Fri Jul 26, 2013, 11:16 AM

ERIC HOLDER TO RUSSIA: We Will Not Torture Or Seek The Death Penalty For Edward Snowden

ERIC HOLDER TO RUSSIA: We Will Not Torture Or Seek The Death Penalty For Edward Snowden

Brett LoGiurato

U.S. Attorney General Eric Holder wrote a letter to the Russian minister of justice assuring the Russian government that the U.S. will not seek the death penalty for National Security Agency leak source Edward Snowden if he is returned to the U.S.

<...>

"We also understand from press reports that Mr. Snowden has filed papers seeking temporary asylum in Russia on the grounds that if he were returned to the United States, he would be tortured and would face the death penalty," Holder wrote in the letter to Russian Minister of Justice Alexander Vladimirovich Konovalov.

"These claims are entirely without merit."

Holder explained that the charges Snowden currently faces in the U.S. do not carry the possibility of being charged with the death penalty... Snowden was charged with three felonies that each carry a maximum of 10 years in prison: Theft of government property, unauthorized communication of national defense information, and willful communication of classified communications intelligence information to an unauthorized person.

Holder went on to say that the U.S. would not torture Snowden because, simply, it is unlawful in the U.S.

- more -

http://www.businessinsider.com/edward-snowden-russia-asylum-death-penalty-torture-eric-holder-2013-7

Full letter at the link.

195 replies, 14490 views

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Reply ERIC HOLDER TO RUSSIA: We Will Not Torture Or Seek The Death Penalty For Edward Snowden (Original post)
ProSense Jul 2013 OP
think Jul 2013 #1
BumRushDaShow Jul 2013 #2
think Jul 2013 #3
arely staircase Jul 2013 #5
think Jul 2013 #6
arely staircase Jul 2013 #8
think Jul 2013 #13
arely staircase Jul 2013 #22
think Jul 2013 #28
bobduca Jul 2013 #16
arely staircase Jul 2013 #25
think Jul 2013 #32
arely staircase Jul 2013 #44
think Jul 2013 #49
arely staircase Jul 2013 #55
think Jul 2013 #58
arely staircase Jul 2013 #60
think Jul 2013 #63
arely staircase Jul 2013 #65
think Jul 2013 #67
arely staircase Jul 2013 #69
think Jul 2013 #70
arely staircase Jul 2013 #72
think Jul 2013 #73
arely staircase Jul 2013 #86
think Jul 2013 #96
arely staircase Jul 2013 #98
think Jul 2013 #99
arely staircase Jul 2013 #102
think Jul 2013 #106
arely staircase Jul 2013 #109
think Jul 2013 #111
arely staircase Jul 2013 #120
think Jul 2013 #123
arely staircase Jul 2013 #151
LanternWaste Jul 2013 #139
treestar Jul 2013 #155
NuclearDem Jul 2013 #159
Cha Jul 2013 #167
NuclearDem Jul 2013 #14
Mojorabbit Jul 2013 #42
arely staircase Jul 2013 #61
treestar Jul 2013 #154
NuclearDem Jul 2013 #158
cprise Jul 2013 #53
arely staircase Jul 2013 #62
KamaAina Jul 2013 #59
arely staircase Jul 2013 #66
Katashi_itto Jul 2013 #93
arely staircase Jul 2013 #95
Katashi_itto Jul 2013 #140
cprise Jul 2013 #150
arely staircase Jul 2013 #156
Katashi_itto Jul 2013 #157
villager Jul 2013 #56
BumRushDaShow Jul 2013 #75
think Jul 2013 #77
Cha Jul 2013 #168
AllINeedIsCoffee Jul 2013 #20
bobduca Jul 2013 #23
think Jul 2013 #26
tammywammy Jul 2013 #4
hootinholler Jul 2013 #9
think Jul 2013 #10
Ichingcarpenter Jul 2013 #19
Mojorabbit Jul 2013 #43
karynnj Jul 2013 #12
think Jul 2013 #17
woo me with science Jul 2013 #33
PowerToThePeople Jul 2013 #39
ProSense Jul 2013 #79
randome Jul 2013 #171
karynnj Jul 2013 #81
woo me with science Jul 2013 #84
karynnj Jul 2013 #115
QC Jul 2013 #104
woo me with science Jul 2013 #145
LanternWaste Jul 2013 #141
woo me with science Jul 2013 #143
karynnj Jul 2013 #80
woo me with science Jul 2013 #83
karynnj Jul 2013 #114
cui bono Jul 2013 #47
karynnj Jul 2013 #78
Broward Jul 2013 #82
woo me with science Jul 2013 #119
LanternWaste Jul 2013 #142
woo me with science Jul 2013 #144
pnwmom Jul 2013 #35
hootinholler Jul 2013 #7
Tierra_y_Libertad Jul 2013 #11
arely staircase Jul 2013 #29
Tierra_y_Libertad Jul 2013 #31
arely staircase Jul 2013 #36
NuclearDem Jul 2013 #34
arely staircase Jul 2013 #38
Dragonfli Jul 2013 #50
woo me with science Jul 2013 #15
AllINeedIsCoffee Jul 2013 #18
cui bono Jul 2013 #51
think Jul 2013 #54
Solly Mack Jul 2013 #74
Cha Jul 2013 #172
hughee99 Jul 2013 #21
woo me with science Jul 2013 #27
WillyT Jul 2013 #24
woo me with science Jul 2013 #30
WillyT Jul 2013 #37
bvar22 Jul 2013 #40
kentuck Jul 2013 #64
ProSense Jul 2013 #71
DisgustipatedinCA Jul 2013 #160
ProSense Jul 2013 #162
DisgustipatedinCA Jul 2013 #164
NuclearDem Jul 2013 #165
ProSense Jul 2013 #170
NuclearDem Jul 2013 #175
ProSense Jul 2013 #181
NuclearDem Jul 2013 #182
ProSense Jul 2013 #183
NuclearDem Jul 2013 #184
ProSense Jul 2013 #185
NuclearDem Jul 2013 #186
ProSense Jul 2013 #187
NuclearDem Jul 2013 #188
JaneyVee Jul 2013 #41
Mojorabbit Jul 2013 #45
JaneyVee Jul 2013 #46
Rex Jul 2013 #97
warrprayer Jul 2013 #48
The Link Jul 2013 #52
KamaAina Jul 2013 #57
The Second Stone Jul 2013 #68
ProSense Jul 2013 #76
chimpymustgo Jul 2013 #87
ProSense Jul 2013 #90
chimpymustgo Jul 2013 #100
ProSense Jul 2013 #101
Liberal_in_LA Jul 2013 #85
ProSense Jul 2013 #88
NuclearDem Jul 2013 #94
Egalitarian Thug Jul 2013 #89
ProSense Jul 2013 #91
flamingdem Jul 2013 #92
LondonReign2 Jul 2013 #103
ZombieHorde Jul 2013 #105
ProSense Jul 2013 #107
ZombieHorde Jul 2013 #113
ProSense Jul 2013 #116
ZombieHorde Jul 2013 #122
NuclearDem Jul 2013 #132
idwiyo Jul 2013 #108
ProSense Jul 2013 #110
darkangel218 Jul 2013 #117
idwiyo Jul 2013 #118
ProSense Jul 2013 #121
idwiyo Jul 2013 #124
ProSense Jul 2013 #125
idwiyo Jul 2013 #127
great white snark Jul 2013 #128
idwiyo Jul 2013 #130
NuclearDem Jul 2013 #131
ProSense Jul 2013 #134
NuclearDem Jul 2013 #136
idwiyo Jul 2013 #163
treestar Jul 2013 #153
idwiyo Jul 2013 #174
randome Jul 2013 #176
idwiyo Jul 2013 #179
forestpath Jul 2013 #112
great white snark Jul 2013 #126
forestpath Jul 2013 #129
ProSense Jul 2013 #133
Rex Jul 2013 #135
darkangel218 Jul 2013 #137
hughee99 Jul 2013 #138
Rex Jul 2013 #146
ProSense Jul 2013 #147
hueymahl Jul 2013 #148
Karmadillo Jul 2013 #149
gulliver Jul 2013 #152
Redford Jul 2013 #161
Cha Jul 2013 #166
randome Jul 2013 #169
Purveyor Jul 2013 #177
randome Jul 2013 #178
Purveyor Jul 2013 #180
cherokeeprogressive Jul 2013 #173
Cha Jul 2013 #194
HardTimes99 Jul 2013 #189
ProSense Jul 2013 #190
HardTimes99 Jul 2013 #191
ProSense Jul 2013 #193
idwiyo Jul 2013 #195
AnnieBW Jul 2013 #192

Response to ProSense (Original post)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 11:25 AM

1. We''ll treat him just like Bradley Manning....

 

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Response to think (Reply #1)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 11:26 AM

2. Yawn. nt

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Response to BumRushDaShow (Reply #2)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 11:28 AM

3. Yawning at Bradley Manning's treatment is what I'd expect from a Pug

 

not a Dem.....

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Response to think (Reply #3)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 11:34 AM

5. It is what I'd expect in a military brig as opposed to the civilian system Snowden will face. nt

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Response to arely staircase (Reply #5)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 11:37 AM

6. The UN chief on torture said Manning's treament was inhumane

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/mar/12/bradley-manning-cruel-inhuman-treatment-un

Are you saying this is what you expect from our military?



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Response to think (Reply #6)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 11:39 AM

8. I haven't seen any evidence his treatment was unusual given his circumstances. nt

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Response to arely staircase (Reply #8)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 11:42 AM

13. Yes, I doubt you would...

 

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Response to think (Reply #13)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 11:46 AM

22. thanks for providing

nothing

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Response to arely staircase (Reply #22)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 11:47 AM

28. likewise

 

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Response to arely staircase (Reply #8)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 11:43 AM

16. I'm sure you looked real hard...

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Response to bobduca (Reply #16)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 11:46 AM

25. i looked real hard in your post

and found nothing

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Response to arely staircase (Reply #25)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 11:52 AM

32. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/mar/12/bradley-manning-cruel-inhuman-treatment-un

 

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Response to think (Reply #32)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 12:05 PM

44. I have read all of that before. Calling Manning's treatment torture is an insult to

people who have actually been tortured. Here is a well source Wikipedia entry on his detention. One can argue whether his conditions or treatment were fair or appropriate for short periods of time, but there is nothing in here that rises to the level of torture:

Detention[edit]

While in Kuwait he was placed on suicide watch after his behavior caused concern.[56] He was moved from Kuwait to the Marine Corps Base Quantico, Virginia, on July 29, 2010, and classified as a maximum custody detainee, with Prevention of Injury (POI) status. POI status is one stop short of suicide watch, entailing checks by guards every five minutes. His lawyer, David Coombs, a former military attorney, said he was not allowed to sleep between 5 am (7 am at weekends) and 8 pm, and was made to stand or sit up if he tried to. He was required to remain visible at all times, including at night, which entailed no access to sheets, no pillow except one built into his mattress, and a blanket designed not to be shredded.[57] Manning complained that he regarded it as pre-trial punishment.[58]

His cell was 6 × 12 ft with no window, containing a bed, toilet, and sink. The jail had 30 cells built in a U shape, and although detainees could talk to one another, they were unable to see each other. His lawyer said the guards behaved professionally, and had not tried to harass or embarrass Manning. He was allowed to walk for up to one hour a day, meals were taken in the cell, and he was shackled during visits. There was access to television when it was placed in the corridor, and he was allowed to keep one magazine and one book. Because he was in pre-trial detention, he received full pay and benefits.[57]

On January 18, 2011, the jail classified him as a suicide risk after an altercation with the guards. Manning said the guards began issuing conflicting commands, such as "turn left, don't turn left," and upbraiding him for responding to commands with "yes" instead of "aye." Shortly afterwards, he was placed on suicide risk, had his clothing and eyeglasses removed, and was required to remain in his cell 24 hours a day. The suicide watch was lifted on January 21 after a complaint from his lawyer, and the brig commander who ordered it was replaced.[59] On March 2, 2011, he was told that his request that his POI status be removed had been denied. His lawyer said Manning joked to the guards that, if he wanted to harm himself, he could do so with his underwear or his flip-flops. The comment resulted in him having his clothes removed at night, and he had to present himself naked one morning for inspection.[60]

The detention conditions prompted national and international concern. Juan E. Mendez, a United Nations Special Rapporteur on torture, told The Guardian in March 2012 that "the 11 months under conditions of solitary confinement (regardless of the name given to his regime by the prison authorities) constitutes at a minimum cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment in violation of Article 16 of the convention against torture. If the effects in regards to pain and suffering inflicted on Manning were more severe, they could constitute torture." In February 2011, Amnesty International called on the British government to intervene on Manning's behalf and demand that the conditions of his detention, which the organization called "harsh and punitive," be in line with international standards. Amnesty's UK director, Kate Allen, said: "His Welsh parentage means the UK government should demand his 'maximum custody' status does not impair his ability to defend himself, and we would also like to see Foreign Office officials visiting him just as they would any other British person detained overseas and potentially facing trial on very serious charges." However, according to his lawyer, Manning did not regard himself as a British citizen.[61] In March that year State Department spokesman Philip J. Crowley criticized Manning's treatment and resigned two days later.[62] In early April, 295 academics (most of them American legal scholars) signed a letter arguing that the treatment was a violation of the United States Constitution.[63] On April 20, the Pentagon transferred Manning to the Midwest Joint Regional Correctional Facility, a new medium-security facility in Fort Leavenworth, Kansas, where he was placed in an 80-square-foot cell with a window and a normal mattress, able to mix with other pre-trial detainees and keep personal objects in his cell.[64]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bradley_manning#Detention

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Response to arely staircase (Reply #44)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 12:10 PM

49. Is that the informatioin you are using to condone what they did?

 

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Response to think (Reply #49)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 12:20 PM

55. it is the info I'm using to call bullshit on the Manning was trotured meme nt

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Response to arely staircase (Reply #55)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 12:25 PM

58. "Cruel and inhuman" So you are fine with cruel & inhuman treatment. Just not torture.....

 

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Response to think (Reply #58)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 12:28 PM

60. no. i don't agree with your premise - that he was subjected to anything cruel or inhumane.

there are apparently times when it seems his guards were dicks to him and his lawyer got that stopped pretty quickly. but nothing anywhere near "cruel or inhumane" and certainly not torture. what specifically was he subjected to that you consider torture?

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Response to arely staircase (Reply #60)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 12:31 PM

63. My premise? It is the UN special rapporteur on torture that is making the statement!

 

Sorry you don't consider him a reliable source to make such a statement...

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Response to think (Reply #63)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 12:33 PM

65. I have made clear that I disagree with him.

Again, what specifically was done to Manning that you consider torture? If you think he was tortured, surely you can say how.

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Response to arely staircase (Reply #65)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 12:36 PM

67. If you disagree that 11 months of solitary without a trial isn't cruel and inhuman

 

we obviously aren't going to agree on issues related to torture....

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Response to think (Reply #67)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 12:40 PM

69. his "solitary confinement" was this:

His cell was 6 × 12 ft with no window, containing a bed, toilet, and sink. The jail had 30 cells built in a U shape, and although detainees could talk to one another, they were unable to see each other. His lawyer said the guards behaved professionally, and had not tried to harass or embarrass Manning. He was allowed to walk for up to one hour a day, meals were taken in the cell, and he was shackled during visits. There was access to television when it was placed in the corridor, and he was allowed to keep one magazine and one book. Because he was in pre-trial detention, he received full pay and benefits.[57]


That is hardly cruel and inhumane. It would certainly suck. Being in jail is gonna suck. But that isn't even what people usually think of when they think of "solitary confinement, which implies no human contact.

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Response to arely staircase (Reply #69)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 12:48 PM

70. Why did a Amnesty International complain if his treatment was so wonderful

 



In February 2011, Amnesty International called on the British government to intervene on Manning's behalf and demand that the conditions of his detention, which the organization called "harsh and punitive," be in line with international standards.


The statement is from your own source BTW....



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Response to think (Reply #70)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 12:54 PM

72. I might agree with "harsh and punitive"

but "harsh and punitive" is a far cry from "cruel and inhumane" and light years from "torture." you do see what you have done, right? you started out saying it was "torture", then watered that down to "cruel and inhumane" and then moved the goal post way out of the stadium with "harsh and punitive."

So I will agree with harsh and punitive which is still consistent with my original statement that he wasn't tortured. Does Amnesty International say he was tortured like you do? No, they don't. Why? Because he was never tortured.

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Response to arely staircase (Reply #72)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 01:02 PM

73. Who said torture where? And No I still think his treatment was CRUEL & INHUMAN!!!!!!

 

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Response to think (Reply #73)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 01:25 PM

86. It is what the OP is about: Holder said Snowden won't be tortured

To which you replied "we'll treat him just like Bradley Manning." I inferred that you thought Manning was tortured. If you do not, then we agree - Manning was not tortured.

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Response to arely staircase (Reply #86)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 01:36 PM

96. Yes. Apparently being cruel & inhumane is acceptable to many here

 

It's not torture.

It's just reprehensible enough that the UN's chief on torture felt it was necessary to make a statement that Manning's conditions were CRUEL & INHUMAN.


And that doesn't give pause to some I guess.......

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Response to think (Reply #96)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 01:39 PM

98. so you do or do not think manning was tortured?

you are all over the board here. first you imply he was, then you ask "who said torture?" which is it?

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Response to arely staircase (Reply #98)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 01:41 PM

99. Cruel and inhuman! That is what I've repeatedly said.

 

It's not torture. But it's still reprehensible and fucking inhumane.

Can you grasp that?

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Response to think (Reply #99)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 01:46 PM

102. ok, thanks. I will go with Amnesty International and say

harsh and punitive. which is not even approaching torture and far short of cruel and inhuman. and in any case doesn't give Snowden a leg to stand on when he claims he will be tortured - which is what the OP is all about.

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Response to arely staircase (Reply #102)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 01:55 PM

106. Amnesty calls for protests over Bradley Manning’s treatment

 

Amnesty calls for protests over Bradley Manning’s treatment
Thursday, Mar 10, 2011 03:11 PM CDT - by Glenn Greenwald

~Snip~


In late January, Amnesty International wrote a letter to Defense Secretary Robert Gates denouncing the conditions of Bradley Manning’s detention as “unnecessarily harsh and punitive” and in “breach the USA’s obligations under international standards and treaties.”


Full article:
http://www.salon.com/2011/03/10/amnesty_7/




http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/asset/AMR51/006/2011/en/df463159-5ba2-416a-8b98-d52df0dc817a/amr510062011en.pdf








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Response to think (Reply #106)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 02:04 PM

109. and they were successful

"On April 20, (2011) the Pentagon transferred Manning to the Midwest Joint Regional Correctional Facility, a new medium-security facility in Fort Leavenworth, Kansas, where he was placed in an 80-square-foot cell with a window and a normal mattress, able to mix with other pre-trial detainees and keep personal objects in his cell.[64]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bradley_manning#Detention

So my whole point, which again is the subject of the OP, is that the fact that Bradley Manning, once but no longer, endured harsh and punitive conditions in a military lock-up, is not in any way evidence that Edward Snowden will be tortured while in Federal civilian custody.

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Response to arely staircase (Reply #109)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 02:08 PM

111. Obviously not everyone is as sure as you since Holder had to write a letter

 

promising there wouldn't be any torture....

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Response to think (Reply #111)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 02:28 PM

120. he wote the letter because Snowden is asking for asylum and specifically saying he will be tortured

and/or given the death penalty. Holder isn't writing the letter in a vacuum, but rather to specifically address Snowden's claims that he will be tortured if returned to the US.

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Response to arely staircase (Reply #120)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 02:34 PM

123. Why does Holder feel the need to address such claims if they are without merit?

 



The US could have responded that Snowden's claims were baseless and simply absurd.

Plain and simple. America's tainted record on torture, cruel & inhumane treatment, secret renditions, & other assorted indiscretions have tainted the image of America so severely that we can not simply dismiss claims like those of Snowden's.

That is a sad indictment of America's standing in the world in regards to human rights.....

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Response to think (Reply #123)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 07:51 PM

151. because a fugitive from justice has based his claim for asylum on it

He would be writing the letter whether the torture under Bush had taken place or not. The justice department wants Russia to reject his request so they are addressing the points he has based his request upon. As you know president Obama ended torture which had been given the green light under Bush. But even if Bush's torture had never happened the attorney general would still write such a letter.

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Response to think (Reply #63)


Response to arely staircase (Reply #44)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 08:18 PM

155. If he killed himself, then of course that would be others' fault, too.

He had the option of not acting like a suicide risk.

It's weird to play right into right wingers' hands that we don't believe in personal responsibility at all. No matter what happens to Manning, it's just not his responsibility. If we chose to protect him from killing himself, we are "torturing" him. If he kills himself, it's because we "failed to protect him."

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Response to treestar (Reply #155)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 08:56 PM

159. Suicide watch in the military is an absolute trainwreck

 

Guess who was put on suicide watch where I was stationed? Someone who was arrested and detained for stealing TVs.

Guess who wasn't? Me, even though I attempted it three times.

SW is often just used by the military to keep prisoners isolated and cut off. It's gotten to the point that it has almost nothing to do with actual risk of suicide.

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Response to arely staircase (Reply #44)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 09:17 PM

167. Exactly arely. Calling bradley's treatment "torture" is

a huge insult to those who have actually been tortured.

Thank you.

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Response to arely staircase (Reply #5)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 11:42 AM

14. Manning's torture was largely brought on by extended periods of solitary confinement

 

Which, by every human rights organization on the planet, is a form of torture. Do you honestly not know our civilian system uses extended solitary confinement as well?

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Response to NuclearDem (Reply #14)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 12:03 PM

42. +100 nt

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Response to NuclearDem (Reply #14)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 12:30 PM

61. His "solitary confinement" was one in which he could speak to other prisoners

in other cells in exactly the same situation as him. hardly what one thinks of when they think solitary confinement - which implies no human contact.

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Response to NuclearDem (Reply #14)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 08:14 PM

154. If you're going to define that as torture

then soon just being in prison will be considered torture.

Just using a word that sounds bad and makes something sound worse, hoping that will strengthen your argument, is just proof your argument is not weak.


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Response to treestar (Reply #154)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 08:52 PM

158. Thanks for completely misrepresenting what I was saying

 

In no way shape or form does considering extended periods of solitary confinement torture lead to the conclusion that imprisonment itself is torture.

Extended solitary confinement deprives a person of social contact and mental stimulus for months or even years. That's proven to have a detrimental effect, at best, and the more extreme form of it, Death Row Phenomenon, has been known to cause complete insanity. In fact, DRP is a big part of why EU nations won't extradite to the US if the person is going to face a capital offense.

Simply being in prison does not deprive someone of social contact or mental stimulation. It can be traumatic for some people, but it's in no way even remotely as damaging as extended solitary confinement.

ESC is torture. Every respectable human rights organization on the planet has said as much. Prisoners who have suffered through it have described it as such.

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Response to arely staircase (Reply #5)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 12:16 PM

53. You'd excuse torture under a system of martial law, then. n/t

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Response to cprise (Reply #53)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 12:31 PM

62. no. manning was never tortured nt

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Response to arely staircase (Reply #5)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 12:25 PM

59. Slight quibble: The term 'brig' is used for Navy prisons only.

 

An Army prison, like the one Manning is in, is called a 'stockade'.

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Response to KamaAina (Reply #59)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 12:33 PM

66. that is correct nt

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Response to arely staircase (Reply #5)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 01:33 PM

93. So your agreeing torture was ok for Manning. As for Civilian...Jose Padilla, yeah no torture there

 

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Response to Katashi_itto (Reply #93)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 01:35 PM

95. manning wasn't tortured nt

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Response to arely staircase (Reply #95)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 04:06 PM

140. Bwhahaha...your funny

 

Immediately upon his arrest on May 26, 2010, Manning was transferred to an 8’ x 8’ x 8’ wire mesh cage in Kuwait with just a toilet and a shelf to keep him company. He had confessed online to a supposed confidant earlier in the week that he had submitted compromised intelligence to WikiLeaks, only for that correspondence to be handed to the FBI.

“I just thought I was going to die in that cage. And that’s how I saw it—an animal cage,” he told the judge as he testified for the first time.

Once in Baltimore, Pfc. Manning was loaded into a car and transferred to the military base in Quantico, Virginia. There he was held for nine months in maximum custody in a cell smaller than the one he saw overseas—just 6' x 8'. For only 20 minutes a day, Pfc. Manning was left to see the sunlight while shackled in chains. Other times, he found that if he arched his neck and angled himself just right he could catch the reflection of the sun from a window that was mirrored into his unimaginable concrete hellhole. Once inside his isolation chamber for the customary 23-and-a-half hours or so, he was deprived of just about everything, including contact with other inmates and often his clothes. He was forced to sleep from 1 PM to 11 PM, naked, and was allowed to do so only when facing his lamp.

"I started to feel like I was mentally going back to Kuwait mode, in that lonely, dark, black hole place, mentally," he said.

“The most entertaining thing in my cell was the mirror. You can interact with yourself. I spent a lot of time with it,” he told the court on Thursday

When a forensic psychiatrist was eventually commissioned to assess Manning at the brig, repeated recommendations were made to remove him from protected watch, which left him forced to cover himself with only a suicide smock and bedding that resembled something between a cardboard box and a liquidation sale rug. Those professional suggestions were all ignored in favor of the guards’ own instincts. Many of those staffers testified that they were trained in corrections for one month at an Air Force base in Texas and rightfully admitted that the guidelines for dealing and assessing with a suicide case they were taught there were thrown out the window when Private Manning arrived.

At Quantico, Pfc. Manning treatment wasn’t by the book: the sleep depravation and stripping of clothes; the humiliation; the taunts and mockery; the nine months of putting Pfc. Manning in protected custody citing concerns over suicide—concerns that were rebuffed relentlessly by both Pfc. Manning himself and qualified psychiatrists. That’s why Coombs is looking to have the case against his client thrown out, and Manning’s own testimony this week only accentuated the living nightmare he was made to endure for nearly a year while only a half-hour drive from the capital of the nation

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Response to Katashi_itto (Reply #140)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 06:50 PM

150. *crickets*

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Response to Katashi_itto (Reply #140)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 08:29 PM

156. he was never tortured.

even his so-called solitary confinement included being able to talk to other prisoners, an hour of daily exercise, watching TV and access to reading material.

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Response to arely staircase (Reply #156)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 08:36 PM

157. Righhtt...keep dreaming

 



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Response to think (Reply #3)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 12:23 PM

56. Well, "Dem" has a whole new meaning here at the "Underground...."

 

n/t

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Response to think (Reply #3)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 01:06 PM

75. Hyperventlating about a non-analogous case is something that Rush Limbaugh does

not an "alleged" Democrat.

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Response to BumRushDaShow (Reply #75)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 01:07 PM

77. yawn...

 

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Response to BumRushDaShow (Reply #75)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 09:21 PM

168. Yeah, they couldn't care less.. "Bradely Manning/Torture!!!`1111"

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Response to BumRushDaShow (Reply #2)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 11:45 AM

20. Double yawn.

 

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Response to AllINeedIsCoffee (Reply #20)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 11:46 AM

23. Yeah fuck Manning that little traitor, now back to dreaming about how exceptional USA is!

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Response to AllINeedIsCoffee (Reply #20)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 11:47 AM

26. Double the torture love. Double the fun....

 

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Response to think (Reply #1)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 11:29 AM

4. Manning's military, Snowden's not. n/t

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Response to tammywammy (Reply #4)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 11:39 AM

9. So it's ok to torture someone if they are in the military?

Did you really mean to imply that?

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Response to tammywammy (Reply #4)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 11:41 AM

10. Manning was subjected to cruel and inhumane treatment according to

 

the UN chief on torture:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/mar/12/bradley-manning-cruel-inhuman-treatment-un

So even Bradley Manning didn't deserve the Manning treatment.

Ask Thomas Drake about how he was treated and if he felt he deserved to be indicted for whistle blowing. Our govt makes life hell for whistleblowers...


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Response to tammywammy (Reply #4)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 11:44 AM

19. Torture in United States Prisons

https://afsc.org/sites/afsc.civicactions.net/files/documents/torture_in_us_prisons.pdf


Ending Torture in U.S. Prisons

Solitary Confinement Toolkit:
Top Five Recommended Comprehensive Resources
1. Solitary Confinement: A Question of Morals
2. National Geographic: Solitary Confinement
3. Prisons Rethink Isolation, Saving Money, Lives and Sanity
4. Annals of Human Rights: Hellhole - Is solitary confinement torture?
5. Confronting Confinement
The National Religious Campaign Against Torture's work on U.S. prisons is primarily focused on the use of solitary confinement. Solitary confinement has a variety of labels including isolation, segregation (“seg”), “the hole”, and many more. Regardless of the label, the conditions share common features. Prisoners are held by themselves in small cells for up to 23 hours per day and exercise alone for the remaining hour. Some prisoners have been held for months, years, even decades, in these isolated conditions and have experienced long-term mental harm as a result. Many studies have documented the detrimental psychological effects of solitary confinement, such as hallucinations, paranoia, and panic attacks. For NRCAT, the term 'prolonged solitary confinement’ is equated to torture - the point when the use of solitary confinement results in severe mental or physical pain or suffering.

The United States is a world leader in holding prisoners in prolonged solitary confinement. There are 44 state-run super-max prisons and one federal super-max prison -- each of which holds inmates exclusively in solitary confinement. At least 80,000 people in the U.S. criminal justice system are held in solitary confinement on any given day. From 1995 to 2000, the growth rate of segregation units significantly surpassed the prison growth rate overall: 40% compared to 28%. Some argue that the use of solitary confinement is a necessary management tool used for only the “worst of the worst”. However, prisoners sometimes end up in solitary confinement or are unable to move out of isolation due to non-violent prison rule infractions. This is especially the case for mentally-ill prisoners. Read this March 2012 New York Times article on the super-max prison in Parchman, Mississippi and its decision to dramatically reduce prisoners in solitary confinement because of the harm it caused to the mental health of the prisoners as well as the fiscal benefits it would gain from the change

http://www.nrcat.org/torture-in-us-prisons



Torture: The Use of Solitary Confinement in U.S. Prisons

http://ccrjustice.org/solitary-factsheet



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Response to tammywammy (Reply #4)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 12:04 PM

43. There have been multiple articles on this board over the years

describing the conditions and treatment of people in our prison system.

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Response to think (Reply #1)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 11:42 AM

12. No - Manning was military, Snowden is not

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Response to karynnj (Reply #12)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 11:43 AM

17. So what they did to Manning is acceptable to you?

 

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Response to think (Reply #17)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 11:52 AM

33. *Anything* is acceptable to the propaganda team,

as long as a Democrat does it.

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Response to woo me with science (Reply #33)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 12:00 PM

39. ^^this

 

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Response to woo me with science (Reply #33)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 01:12 PM

79. Bullshit.

Most of the people making the claim that Manning was tortured because he was held in solitary confinement never gave a shit about all the prisoners who have been subjected to it for decades in this country.

They still don't give a shit, but only use it to push the claim the U.S. tortures. That's the only time if ever comes up.

The Obama administration's policy does not sanction torture. Period.

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Response to ProSense (Reply #79)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 09:25 PM

171. Whoa.

 


[hr][font color="blue"][center]You should never stop having childhood dreams.[/center][/font][hr]

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Response to woo me with science (Reply #33)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 01:15 PM

81. No it isn't - and many people like me were upset by the reports and

we posted that at the time.

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Response to karynnj (Reply #81)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 01:22 PM

84. The defense here speaks for itself.

"Manning was military. Snowden is not."

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Response to woo me with science (Reply #84)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 02:19 PM

115. Sorry - your logic is completely underwhelming

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Response to woo me with science (Reply #33)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 01:51 PM

104. Yep. It's all about which jersey the player is wearing.

Hard to believe it, but DU used to be a place where you could get a real education on politics and current affairs.

Now, not so much.

Great place to giggle at dreamy pinups of politicians, though.

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Response to QC (Reply #104)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 04:29 PM

145. If someone had shown me text of some of the arguments here, fifteen years ago...

or evidence of the things our government is now saying and doing...

I would never have believed it. We really are living in Oceania now.

The Fact That The United States Of America Has To Promise NOT To Torture One Of It's Citizens... Is
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023347753



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Response to woo me with science (Reply #33)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 04:12 PM

141. The corollary appears to be just as valid...

The corollary appears to be just as valid...

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Response to LanternWaste (Reply #141)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 04:25 PM

143. I know! NOTHING is acceptable to these people!

Their rejection of torture proves it!

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Response to think (Reply #17)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 01:13 PM

80. No - and I never said it was - in fact I posted against it back when it was an

issue on DU2.

Saying that Snowden would face a civil court does not mean condoning any actions that happen in military courts. That is a pathetic jump in logic!

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Response to karynnj (Reply #80)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 01:19 PM

83. The defense here speaks for itself.

"Manning was military. Snowden is not."

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Response to woo me with science (Reply #83)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 02:18 PM

114. That is because you are seeing things not there

Do you disagree that Manning is in military court? Or that Snowden if tried would be in civilian? If you agree that both of these are true - you agree with what I posted.

Your "defense" completely loses here!

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Response to karynnj (Reply #12)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 12:10 PM

47. I can't believe you are the third one saying this

and I'm not even done scrolling through the replies.

WTF has happened to our sense of decency and morality in the supposedly Dem party, let alone the entire country.

Disgusting.

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Response to cui bono (Reply #47)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 01:11 PM

78. Pointing out an obvious fact is now against decency??

For what it is worth, I was against any bad treatment of Manning - and posted as such when it was an issue. However, things can happen in the military system that are completely against the law in civil courts.

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Response to cui bono (Reply #47)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 01:16 PM

82. Yes, many here have lost their way.

Apparently, being a Dem to them is just a label.

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Response to Broward (Reply #82)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 02:23 PM

119. The doubling down is particularly creepy.

War is Peace.
Freedom is Slavery.
Ignorance is Strength.

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Response to woo me with science (Reply #119)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 04:14 PM

142. As with the tripling up...

"War is Peace.
Freedom is Slavery.
Ignorance is Strength...."


And enemies are heroes. Treason is a virtue....


The dogma here can be just as strong as a Sunday morning baptist church sometimes.

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Response to LanternWaste (Reply #142)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 04:26 PM

144. Imagine taking a consistent stand against torture.

Such tripling up must be mocked for the purism it is.

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Response to think (Reply #1)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 11:55 AM

35. Did you read this? He's going to have a civilian lawyer in a civilian trial.

He will not be treated like the soldier and be subject to the military system.

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Response to ProSense (Original post)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 11:38 AM

7. This really speaks volumes

I'll believe you when you bring our torturers to justice Mr Holder, we have tortured people and I think it did not stop with this administration at least in the Bradley Manning case.

How sad is it that the Attorney General has written such a letter?

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Response to ProSense (Original post)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 11:42 AM

11. We don't torture! Well, except for the goumet meals being served by tube to prisoners in Guantanamo

 

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Response to Tierra_y_Libertad (Reply #11)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 11:48 AM

29. you suggest we let the hunger strikers starve

how cruel and unusual.

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Response to arely staircase (Reply #29)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 11:51 AM

31. I suggest that they be tried or released and not tortured.

 

Or, do you consider force-feeding not torture?

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Response to Tierra_y_Libertad (Reply #31)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 11:55 AM

36. I agree with that. But if that isn't happening I wouldn't let anyone starve to death. nt

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Response to arely staircase (Reply #29)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 11:54 AM

34. Force feeding, especially when done brutally and exceptionally harmfully, is torture.

 

Hunger strikes are literally the only thing prisoners can do to protest their mistreatment. If they choose to starve, they choose to starve. Shoving needles and tubes down their throats to the point they vomit on themselves is humiliating and degrading, and that you defend it is abhorrent.

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Response to NuclearDem (Reply #34)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 11:56 AM

38. I couldn't let anyone starve to death

that seems more cruel than a feeding tube.

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Response to arely staircase (Reply #38)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 12:13 PM

50. It is always kinder for the cat to keep his captured victim alive as long as possible

I am sure the mouse finds his compassion touching

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Response to ProSense (Original post)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 11:43 AM

15. Good god. We are seeing some jaw dropping headlines lately

right here in the United States of America.

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Response to ProSense (Original post)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 11:44 AM

18. It's sad that there's so much disinformation out there that we have

 

to promise not to do something we wouldn't do anyway.

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Response to AllINeedIsCoffee (Reply #18)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 12:14 PM

51. It's sad that the US has tortured enough times that our AG has to claim publicly

that we "promise" we won't torture this guy.

Nevermind Manning and all the Iraqis...

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Response to cui bono (Reply #51)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 12:16 PM

54. Bingo /nt

 

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Response to cui bono (Reply #51)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 01:06 PM

74. Yep

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Response to AllINeedIsCoffee (Reply #18)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 09:27 PM

172. Right, and St Snowedem, the Martyr, and Greenwald, the nasty villain, are putting it

out there.

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Response to ProSense (Original post)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 11:46 AM

21. "entirely" without merit? Does ANYONE buy that?

The charges that Snowden CURRENTLY faces... Yeah, because they can't charge him with something new after getting him back in the US, right?

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Response to hughee99 (Reply #21)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 11:47 AM

27. No.

I am certain Bradley Manning doesn't.

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Response to ProSense (Original post)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 11:46 AM

24. Well... Are They Not Merciful...

 


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Response to WillyT (Reply #24)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 11:50 AM

30. It's fucking surreal.


I imagine showing these headlines to a relative who died 20 years ago.

I cannot believe what has become of this country.

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Response to woo me with science (Reply #30)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 11:56 AM

37. Agreed... And I Thought We Were Through The Looking Glass With GW...

 

So mush for hope and change.


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Response to ProSense (Original post)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 12:01 PM

40. LOL. We won't torture SNowden.

We would NEVER do something like that,
because THAT would be illegal.


Oh, man.
You can't make this stuff UP!

Take a guess.
How many countries and people in the WORLD
believe that "the U.S. would not torture Snowden because, simply, it is unlawful in the U.S. "


Tell Me True,
do YOU really believe that?



"Fool me once, shame on you...."

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Response to bvar22 (Reply #40)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 12:32 PM

64. He's already been tortured...

some might argue?

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Response to kentuck (Reply #64)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 12:53 PM

71. Yeah, and the NSA program is worse than Watergate.

Ludicrous.

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Response to ProSense (Reply #71)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 08:57 PM

160. If you think watergate is worse than this spying, no one should ever listen to you.

 

Don't waste your time telling me Watergate was a crime and this isn't. NSA is a criminal organization, start to finish, and this series of spying scandals outpaces Watergate by miles.

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Response to DisgustipatedinCA (Reply #160)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 09:00 PM

162. If you think what you just said makes sense, then "no one should ever listen to you"

Seriously, no one!

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Response to ProSense (Reply #162)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 09:04 PM

164. ProSense deploys "I know you are, but what am I?"

 

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Response to ProSense (Reply #71)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 09:05 PM

165. So how is dystopian mass surveillance by a completely rogue, unaccountable branch of government

 

somehow not worse than one incident of a few Republican operatives spying on a handful of Democrats?

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Response to NuclearDem (Reply #165)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 09:25 PM

170. Well one is a legal program and the other was a crime.

"So how is dystopian mass surveillance by a completely rogue, unaccountable branch of government somehow not worse than one incident of a few Republican operatives spying on a handful of Democrats?"

One involves silly mischaracterizations and the other was tied to the secret bombing of Cambodia.

Still, I love watching Nixon's new defenders trying to diminish the impact of a criminal act using hyperbole and false equivalencies.

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Response to ProSense (Reply #170)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 09:40 PM

175. Just because something is legal doesn't make it even remotely right.

 

And Watergate had absolutely jack shit to do with the bombing of Cambodia. The only thing that ties them together is that they were both examples of abuse of presidential power under Nixon.

And where the fuck do you get the idea I have any interest in defending Nixon? I just refuse to believe that it's alright to defend one example of the government invading private lives while condemning the other. Cognitive dissonance hurts.

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Response to NuclearDem (Reply #175)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 10:06 PM

181. Wow,

Just because something is legal doesn't make it even remotely right.

And Watergate had absolutely jack shit to do with the bombing of Cambodia. The only thing that ties them together is that they were both examples of abuse of presidential power under Nixon.

And where the fuck do you get the idea I have any interest in defending Nixon? I just refuse to believe that it's alright to defend one example of the government invading private lives while condemning the other. Cognitive dissonance hurts.

...great argument: "Just because something is legal" doesn't mean it isn't worse than a crime.

You clearly have no idea about what sparked Watergate. Here you are comparing two situations that aren't remotely related, but dismissing a very real link involving Nixon's scandals.

You're trying to absolve Nixon of his crimes by claiming that a legal program is worst than Watergate. So be outraged, but that is exactly what you're doing.


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Response to ProSense (Reply #181)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 10:21 PM

182. What the fuck are you talking about?

 

What a giant fucking leap of logic and cheap attempt to poison well, claiming people want to absolve Nixon of his abuse of power for Watergate and Cambodia simply because they're also outraged at the NSA.

The Watergate break-in was wrong. The secret bombing of Cambodia was atrocious. And you know what? Secretly collecting data on millions of people without any sort of consent or oversight is wrong, too. It being condoned by the law and acts of Congress doesn't make it alright, it makes it a fucking nightmare that such an invasion of privacy could be accepted and treated as right.

Maybe you should try considering that you're not only wrong, but that you're enabling and defending the growing surveillance state and invasion of privacy, and stop trying to paint all of your opponents as secret Nixon lovers/racists/Obama haters/Republican apologists. It's fucking sickening.

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Response to NuclearDem (Reply #182)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 10:24 PM

183. Watergate was a crime. The NSA program is a legally conducted program.

Deal with that reality.

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Response to ProSense (Reply #183)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 10:32 PM

184. Fucking unbelievable.

 

I'm actually at a loss for words. You're just...wow. Incredible.

Team Democrat at any cost, huh?

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Response to NuclearDem (Reply #184)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 10:37 PM

185. You made a bogus claim. You can be outraged because you were called on it.

Doesn't change the fact that your claim was bogus.

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Response to ProSense (Reply #185)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 10:49 PM

186. Again, you completely miss the point.

 

We're approaching this at completely separate angles.

I'm arguing morality and ethics.

You're arguing legal vs. illegal.

Just because something is legal, doesn't make it moral or ethical.

Watergate and the bombing of Cambodia were morally and ethically repugnant, but at least we had the sense as a society to define those actions as illegal. The NSA programs are just as morally and ethically repugnant, but what makes it worse is that we as a society have chosen to define them as legal.

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Response to NuclearDem (Reply #186)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 10:55 PM

187. No, the point was bogus. n/t

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Response to ProSense (Reply #187)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 10:56 PM

188. ...I know you think that.

 

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Response to ProSense (Original post)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 12:02 PM

41. He should come back to the US and make his case. Public opinion is shifting against him.

 

Besides that, he should answer questions about what he took and who he shared it with.

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Response to JaneyVee (Reply #41)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 12:06 PM

45. He would be an idiot to do so.nt

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Response to Mojorabbit (Reply #45)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 12:09 PM

46. He would be an idiot to stay in Russia.

 

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Response to JaneyVee (Reply #46)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 01:37 PM

97. A agree.

 

But I've been saying the man is an idiot from the beginning of this rollercoaster ride.

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Response to ProSense (Original post)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 12:10 PM

48. oh.... oh...

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Response to ProSense (Original post)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 12:14 PM

52. I don't believe what Holder says.

 

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Response to ProSense (Original post)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 12:24 PM

57. Of course we won't seek the death penalty.

 

That'd mean, y'know, putting him on trial. All kinds of facts 'n' stuff have a way of coming out during trials.

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Response to ProSense (Original post)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 12:38 PM

68. Eric Holder doesn't know the difference between torture and the hole

 

in his ass. He has no credibility on this issue and neither does the US government. The US government does torture and assassinate. And it spies on all of its citizens.

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Response to The Second Stone (Reply #68)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 01:07 PM

76. I bet he does. n/t

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Response to ProSense (Reply #76)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 01:27 PM

87. "The US government does torture and assassinate. And it spies on all of its citizens. "

Edward Snowden - please do NOT fall for the continuing LIES of this government. Don't come back.

They lie to Congress, they lie to the American people. They are LYING to YOU.

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Response to chimpymustgo (Reply #87)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 01:30 PM

90. Nonsense. n/t

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Response to ProSense (Reply #90)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 01:42 PM

100. Fitting "rebuttal." DIck Cheney couldn't have sneered it better himself.

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Response to chimpymustgo (Reply #100)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 01:45 PM

101. More nonsense. n/t

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Response to ProSense (Original post)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 01:23 PM

85. it is sad we have to promise not to torture

 

US was once known as a humanitarian country

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Reply #85)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 01:29 PM

88. Despite the

"it is sad we have to promise not to torture"

...title of the piece, Holder is dismissing Snowden's claims as "without merit."

"US was once known as a humanitarian country"

There have been numerous pitfalls along the way.

The Obama administration marked an end to one of the worst periods.

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Response to ProSense (Reply #88)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 01:33 PM

94. No, it marked an end to people publically defending torture as EIT.

 

It did nothing to actually stop force-feeding (which Obama, as commander-in-chief, has the authority to stop by simply giving an order) or the extended periods of solitary confinement faced at Gitmo, military prisons, and the civilian system at large.

Just because Obama said "The United States of America does not torture" does not make it so.

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Response to ProSense (Original post)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 01:29 PM

89. What can anyone say to this except,

 


& R

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Response to Egalitarian Thug (Reply #89)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 01:31 PM

91. We'll see what the Russians do. n/t

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Response to ProSense (Reply #91)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 01:33 PM

92. Well this might be the reason for the delay

There are no doubt interesting phone calls happening now that might lead to a trade.

Does 1 Anthony Bout = 1 Edward Snowden or is the math going to be different.

Time will tell.

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Response to ProSense (Original post)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 01:47 PM

103. And you under the illusion that this headline

makes Obama look good?

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Response to ProSense (Original post)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 01:53 PM

105. I hope Russia understands that we have something called

enhanced interrogation techniques, which everyone else calls torture. Our culture is so intensely violent that even many people who consider themselves peace loving are cool with torture.

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Response to ZombieHorde (Reply #105)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 01:58 PM

107. No,

"I hope Russia understands that we have something called enhanced interrogation techniques, which everyone else calls torture."

...that was the Bush administration's policy.

ENDING TORTURE = Three Torches
  • Ordered an end to the use of torture and cruel, inhuman, and degrading treatment, withdrew
    flawed legal analysis used to justify torture and applied the Army Field Manual on interrogations
    government wide.
  • Abolished the CIA secret prisons.
  • Says that “waterboarding is torture” and “contrary to America’s traditions… contrary to our ideals.”
  • No reports of extraordinary rendition to torture or other cruelty under his administration.
  • Failed to hold those responsible for past torture and other cruelty accountable; has blocked
    alleged victims of torture from having their day in court.
http://www.aclulibertywatch.org/ALWCandidateReportCard.pdf



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Response to ProSense (Reply #107)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 02:15 PM

113. Bradely Manning.

eta: Force feedings too.

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Response to ZombieHorde (Reply #113)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 02:19 PM

116. As I said

"Bradely Manning. "

...here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023345900#post79

Bullshit! I repeat.

Most of the people making the claim that Manning was tortured because he was held in solitary confinement never gave a shit about all the prisoners who have been subjected to it for decades in this country.

They still don't give a shit, but only use it to push the claim the U.S. tortures. That's the only time it ever comes up.

The Obama administration's policy does not sanction torture. Period.

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Response to ProSense (Reply #116)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 02:32 PM

122. Like I said, the US culture is so violent that even peace loving people

support torture. Manning's treatment was cruel and sexually humiliating. Prisoners are being held without being charged with anything, and some of them have been force fed.

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Response to ProSense (Reply #116)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 03:18 PM

132. So Obama's complete inaction to stop the force feeding of prisoners at Gitmo?

 

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Response to ProSense (Original post)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 02:02 PM

108. Torture is unlawful in US? Go tell that to prisoners who spent decades in solitary. Never even mind

Gitmo. Forget about other secret prisons.

Jeebus friggin crist,

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Response to idwiyo (Reply #108)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 02:05 PM

110. Yes,

"Torture is unlawful in US? Go tell that to prisoners who spent decades in solitary."

...it is, unless you believe Bush was simply carrying on an American tradition?

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Response to ProSense (Reply #110)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 02:20 PM

117. If its unlawful, then why is it still going on??

 

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Response to ProSense (Reply #110)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 02:22 PM

118. Solitary confinement as practiced in US is torture. No buts about it.

I don't give a flying fuck what admin is in charge, if they allow it, they support torture.

I am also damn glad EU finally outlawed life without a possibility of parole. YMMV

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Response to idwiyo (Reply #118)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 02:31 PM

121. Bullshit

Solitary confinement as practiced in US is torture. No buts about it.

I don't give a flying fuck what admin is in charge, if they allow it, they support torture.

I am also damn glad EU finally outlawed life without a possibility of parole. YMMV

...conflating the administration policy with decades old practices in prisons is bullshit.

By your logic, every President, including Clinton and Carter, supports torture.

Bullshit.

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Response to ProSense (Reply #121)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 02:53 PM

124. Solitary confinement as practiced in US is torture. Any admin that allows it, allows torture.

Unfortunately for you when it comes to Gitmo, both Bush admin (who started it) and present admin (that let it continue) are guilty as charged.

There is no point stating usual bullshit about un-cooperative Congress and luck of money. Obama could have asked us, the people, for money. I have no doubt enough would have been donated to close that monstrosity.

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Response to idwiyo (Reply #124)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 02:54 PM

125. Wait

"There is no point stating usual bullshit about un-cooperative Congress and luck of money. Obama could have asked us, the people, for money. I have no doubt enough would have been donated to close that monstrosity. "

...WTF?

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Response to ProSense (Reply #125)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 03:02 PM

127. Deal with it. :)

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Response to idwiyo (Reply #124)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 03:07 PM

128. Holy crap.

Your need to blame Obama has warped common sense.

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Response to great white snark (Reply #128)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 03:13 PM

130. Obama's is just the latest one of the admins that allowed it to continiue. Every single one of them

is guilty.

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Response to ProSense (Reply #121)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 03:16 PM

131. Yes, every past administration did support torture in that aspect

 

Culturally, there just hasn't been a backlash against it until recently. The research is in now on the effects of extended solitary confinement on prisoners.

Previous administrations may have been guilty of supporting torture that way, but at least they had the benefit of it not being fully understood or known. More recent ones don't have that, and continuing to allow it in the face of evidence and outcry is despicable.

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Response to NuclearDem (Reply #131)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 03:26 PM

134. "Previous administrations may have been guilty of supporting torture that way...

"Previous administrations may have been guilty of supporting torture that way, but at least they had the benefit of it not being fully understood or known."

Are you saying the administrations didn't understand they were supporting torture and were unaware of solitary confinement?

Lame excuse.

The notion is absurd. Bush sanctioning torture has nothing to do with this pretzel logic.

The current administration does not sanction torture.

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Response to ProSense (Reply #134)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 03:30 PM

136. Yes, I'm saying that the lack of supporting evidence does partially absolve the previous ones

 

Hindsight is an absolutely stupid way to look on the past. Context is important.

Bush had no excuse to sanction torture, considering the outcry and blatant illegality of it. Solitary confinement in the United States is as old as the colonies, but research on its effects didn't fully come to fruition until the late 20th century.

And since Obama doesn't sanction torture, I assume he'll be ordering the Gitmo force feeding stopped and he'll withdraw the nomination of the man who oversaw Jose Padilla's mental and psychological torture for FBI director?

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Response to ProSense (Reply #134)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 09:04 PM

163. Yes it does. Solitary confinement as it currently practiced in US is torture.

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Response to idwiyo (Reply #108)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 08:12 PM

153. You're defining it for yourself.

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Response to treestar (Reply #153)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 09:30 PM

174. Regardless of what you want to believe, solitary confinement as currently practiced in US is torture

Pretending it's not so is not going to change the reality of it. Deal with it.

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Response to idwiyo (Reply #174)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 09:47 PM

176. What kind of solitary confinement do you NOT consider torture?

 

I assume 'as currently practiced by the U.S.' means some other country does it differently?
[hr][font color="blue"][center]You should never stop having childhood dreams.[/center][/font][hr]

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Response to randome (Reply #176)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 10:01 PM

179. Less than 14 days, daylight, free access to books, education, exercise, lawyer, NHS or equivalent,

daily access to showers, enough space to be able to move and exercise inside the cell, quiet and dark at night, clean.

I consider the above a basic requirement of humane treatment.

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Response to ProSense (Original post)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 02:11 PM

112. Suuuuuuuuuuuuure they won't.

 

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Response to forestpath (Reply #112)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 02:59 PM

126. So he's stating this to the world just so he can do the opposite?

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Response to great white snark (Reply #126)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 03:09 PM

129. Yeah, just like he claimed he would protect whistleblowers when he was campaigning.

 

And then he did the exact opposite.

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Response to forestpath (Reply #129)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 03:22 PM

133. Well,

"Yeah, just like he claimed he would protect whistleblowers when he was campaigning."

...it's Snowden's fault that he didn't take advantage of the protection channels.

President Signs Whistleblower Protection Enhancement Act (WPEA)

by Hannah Johnson

After 13 Year Campaign, Federal Workers Get Long-Overdue Upgrades

(Washington, DC) – The Government Accountability Project (GAP) is praising President Obama's signing of S. 743, the Whistleblower Protection Enhancement Act (WPEA), into law earlier today. The legislation provides millions of federal workers with the rights they need to report government corruption and wrongdoing safely. The bill reflects an unequivocal bipartisan consensus, having received the vote of every member in the 112th Congress, passing both the Senate and House of Representatives by unanimous consent over the past couple of months. The text of the bill can be read here.

GAP Legal Director Tom Devine commented:

"This reform took 13 years to pass because it can make so much difference against fraud, waste and abuse. Government managers at all levels made pleas and repeatedly blocked the bill through procedural sabotage. But once there were no more secret 'holds,' the WPEA passed unanimously, because no politician in a free society can openly oppose freedom of speech. Over the years, earlier versions of this law had been called the Taxpayer Protection Act. Nothing could set a better context for fiscal cliff negotiations than a unanimous, bipartisan consensus to protect those who risk their careers to protect the taxpayers. This victory reflects a consensus ranging from President Obama to Representative Darrell Issa. The mandate for this law is that the truth is the public's business."

Among other key reforms, federal employees now are protected (in addition to already-existing scenarios) from reprisal if they: are not the first person to disclose misconduct; disclose misconduct to coworkers or supervisors; disclose the consequences of a policy decision; or blow the whistle while carrying out their job duties.

<...>

Devine continued, stating

"The victory reflects strong bipartisan teamwork, as well as advocacy within the party, as Republicans often had to work harder at convincing wary colleagues. And it reflects relentless pressure from conservative stakeholders – like the National Taxpayers Union – throughout the last 13 years. Crucial support came from President Obama, who was committed from day one of his term to signing this bill into law. Most Presidents have offered lip service for whistleblower rights, but President Obama fought to give them more teeth."

- more -

http://www.whistleblower.org/blog/42-2012/2380-president-signs-whistleblower-protection-enhancement-act-wpea-

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021890422

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Response to ProSense (Original post)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 03:27 PM

135. That is true, we get third world countries to do our torturing.

 

WE do not torture.

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Response to ProSense (Original post)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 03:31 PM

137. LULZ!!

 

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Response to ProSense (Original post)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 03:34 PM

138. We won't torture or kill him IF we get him back to the US...

Of course, he'll have to watch out for drones while he's out of the country, though.

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Response to ProSense (Original post)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 04:30 PM

146. Did he have his fingers crossed behind his back?

 

nt.

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Response to Rex (Reply #146)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 05:15 PM

147. Clearly, he should have written:

"These claims are entirely without merit, but I will not 'promise' anything."

Wonder if that would have prevented the: OMG, WTF? He's has to promise not to torture.

This letter clearly doesn't help Snowden's situation.

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Response to ProSense (Original post)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 05:21 PM

148. I'm new here. Is there a way to negative rec a post?

That was snarky. Let me add a little substance. Not carefully what Holder said:

Holder explained that the charges Snowden currently faces in the U.S. do not carry the possibility of being charged with the death penalty...


"Currently Faces". That was not a slip of the keyboard. And it is a huge loophole allowing our government to charge him with a death-penalty offense if he returns.

OP, no need to thank me for clarifying that for you. I consider it part of my duty as a new member of this prestigious group (and I mean the last part with all sincerity).

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Response to ProSense (Original post)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 05:24 PM

149. In a related story, Holder also issued a guarantee to Charlie Brown that Lucy would not pull the

football away should he attempt to kick it.

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Response to ProSense (Original post)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 08:10 PM

152. If Russia sends him back, they might expect us to do the same for a real...

...legitimate asylum seeker from Russia.

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Response to ProSense (Original post)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 08:59 PM

161. Snowden is safer in Russia than in his home country

Black is white, up is down,,,,,

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Response to ProSense (Original post)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 09:14 PM

166. NO Worries! St snowedem will never let go of his Martyrdom..

He'll cling to that in Mother Russia/"Russia is Good", "USA bad"/"PBO Bad", like a MF.

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Response to Cha (Reply #166)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 09:24 PM

169. I'm thinking he never had a real relationship with his parents nor his girlfriend.

 

There is something odd about this guy to have run to Russia for the privilege of having released some PowerPoint slides and a copy of a legal warrant.

So many things about him do not add up.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]You should never stop having childhood dreams.[/center][/font][hr]

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Response to randome (Reply #169)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 09:48 PM

177. Something 'odd' about you I think... for attempting to analyse Snowden's head without a bit

 

of knowledge of him.

So now...tell us all about your 'relationship' with your parents and girlfriend/boyfriends?



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Response to Purveyor (Reply #177)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 10:00 PM

178. I didn't make a public spectacle of myself.

 

It's only speculation on my part. It's strange we don't hear about his 'fish out of water' girlfriend any longer. He seemed to have ditched her pretty easily.

He never said he misses her, did he? Other than her blog remark above, I don't think she misses him, either.

Not sure if Snowden's said anything about his parents. He may have mentioned them once or twice but I don't get the impression they are that important to him.

Again, just speculation.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]You should never stop having childhood dreams.[/center][/font][hr]

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Response to randome (Reply #178)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 10:02 PM

180. LOL. eom

 

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Response to Cha (Reply #166)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 09:30 PM

173. Because... Um...

 

Obama!

I'm betting Snowden never really loved him in the first place.

Big mistake.

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Response to cherokeeprogressive (Reply #173)

Sat Jul 27, 2013, 12:00 AM

194. Snowden "hated Social Security, peddled NRA's garbage about

fighting the government with guns. Wrote about punishing leakers and outlets that published them." An anti-government rw nut job."

SNOWDEN: save money? cut this social security bullshit
User11: hahahayes
User18: Yeah! Fuck old people!
User11: social security is bullshit
User11: let's just toss old people out in the street
User18: Old people could move in with [User11].
User11: NOOO
User11: they smell funny
SNOWDEN: Somehow, our society managed to make it hundreds of years without social security just fine
SNOWDEN: you fucking retards
SNOWDEN: Magically the world changed after the new deal, and old people became made of glass
SNOWDEN: yeah, that makes sense

Once Obama took office, Snowden groaned about his policies with increasing frequency. Fears that Obama might revive an assault weapons ban didn't sit well with him as a defender of the Second Amendment. Another sticking point was social security. Snowden was an individualist, even when it was unpopular; he saw little need for a safety net.

His grandmother would be so proud, who he also claims doesn't support Social Security.

And his opinion on the racist, wingbat Ron Paul? "Dreamy."

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/06/exclusive-in-2009-ed-snowden-said-leakers-should-be-shot-then-he-became-one/

http://www.thepeoplesview.net/2013/07/how-professional-lefts-blind-obama.html

So no, he hated Obama and loved Ron Fucktard Paul.


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Response to ProSense (Original post)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 11:00 PM

189. If torture is illegal in the U.S., then why are Bush and Cheney walking

 

around free men?

Holder is the laughingstock of the civilized world.

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Response to HardTimes99 (Reply #189)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 11:04 PM

190. I seriously

"Holder is the laughingstock of the civilized world. "

...doubt that, but then again, the question is: What will Russia do?

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Response to ProSense (Reply #190)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 11:08 PM

191. After Konovalov, Medvedev and Putin have finished laughing, they will

 

respond with a hearty "NYET" (if they have not already done so).

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Response to HardTimes99 (Reply #191)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 11:15 PM

193. We'll see. n/t

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Response to ProSense (Reply #190)

Sun Jul 28, 2013, 09:11 AM

195. Putin already said they will not extradite. Peskov confirmed there will be no extradition.

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Response to ProSense (Original post)

Fri Jul 26, 2013, 11:11 PM

192. We won't torture him

We'll just make him watch all five "Twilight" movies in one sitting!

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