General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsDid Clapper commit perjury? Yes. Is the "chatter" real? Maybe.
Last edited Wed Aug 7, 2013, 07:12 AM - Edit history (2)
Clapper lied to the Senate and he's even admitted it, but no move will be ever made to hold him accountable.
Is the NSA lying when they still claim they aren't collecting phone calls of millions of Americans? Yes! They've redefined the language so that even though they are doing this, it's only counts as "collecting" once they use a secret-court blanket warrant to conduct official searches within the collected material. (And it's not even a "search" long as it's just analysts having a casual look-see with XKeyscore; maybe sharing the info informally with their private clients or spook networks on the side.) But of course they have collected this data to store it in the first place. If language still has any meaning, that is.
Is the NSA in a crisis of sorts, the greatest in its history, as a result of revelations of its constitutional violations? Certainly. It's so serious that a vote to defund NSA mass surveillance programs fell short in the House by just 7 votes. Sadly, this crisis is highly unlikely to be fatal to the spook agency that is about to activate the world's largest data storage facility in Utah.
So, what does the above establish?
The NSA lies. Intelligence agencies lie (and see this as their duty, the fuckers). They are engaged in criminal activity that is being exposed. (They have engaged in far greater crimes in the various imperialist wars of the last seven decades, of course.) They have ambitions to expand this total surveillance industry encompassing all forms of data produced int the world, make it even more comprehensive, deeper, omnipresent and, of course, profitable to the real beneficiaries, the private corporate contractors.
At the moment, they have a lot of incentive to lie! They have motive to create distractions from the ongoing revelations.
Now. Will politicians in Congress and White House nod "yes" like bobble-heads to any bullshit about "chatter" that currently comes out of the NSA and its cousin agencies? Absolutely.
This was always true, and it's worse than ever after 13 years of terror-war fearmongering and after, most recently, the total hysteria over "Benghazi." In some sense, they have no choice -- not if they don't have the courage to call bullshit on the entire terror-intel-homeland-military-industrial complex that's been paying their bills and getting their votes all these years.
Does the NSA's "chatter" about potential terror attacks come at a very convenient time? Sure, just like all those times earlier this century, back when Democrats were often ready to claim the Bush regime's terror warnings were only issued whenever Bush's approval ratings were falling:
Note: There was a time when this chart was posted on DU about once a week. Very few DUers decried it as "conspiracy theory."
Does this mean the chatter is bullshit this time? Possibly.
Of course it's also possible real people in Yemen et al. have a strong motive to blow up Americans, whether or not this is the right thing to do, or wise of them. It is neither, but of course a deniable and illegal global war has been waged on their people by the USG for many years. As was already the case back in 2001. These policies effectively recruit for "the enemy" and invite violent and criminal retaliation in the form of what the USG then terms "terrorism."
And of course, thousands of men were just broken out of various Middle Eastern prisons. Some of them might be genuinely criminal minded, or looking for revenge on their former captors. It's not implausible.
Over in Guantanamo, your USG is still torturing dozens of prisoners every day with force-feedings. Same USG has acknowledged half those men were never guilty of anything, yet they are still held and held and held for years, tortured in the hell-prison. The world remains acutely aware of this crime against humanity, even if Americans generally manage to ignore, deny and trivialize it. It's a constant source of anger for many people in the Arab and Muslim worlds.
There's always "chatter" of course. Let's say the NSA or other agencies are picking and choosing "chatter" to exaggerate, so as to create a distraction from the ongoing exposure of the routine and massive unconstitutional surveillance and other criminal behavior at NSA, DEA, CIA, FBI, ETC. Does that require a "conspiracy" between, say, Obama and Graham?
Hell no. Those are the civilian bobbleheads. They're way too high up to ever possibly follow all the details and know what's the substance of the chatter. They may not all be equally smart, but they tend to have a good sense of things they are safer not knowing. And as public figures they're way too vulnerable not to kowtow to the "national security" "expert" class.
Again, that's if they don't have the courage to call bullshit on the entire terror-intel-homeland-military-industrial complex that's for all these years has been frightening and bullying Americans and making threats to the world, paying the bills for agencies and contractors, and funding politician campaigns and lobbyists and media ad buys and think-tankers and other shills to corral the votes.
Which, of course, they do not even conceive of doing.
MotherPetrie
(3,145 posts)GiaGiovanni
(1,247 posts)That rubbing his head thing he did in the hearing?
JackRiddler
(24,979 posts)is that his lips are moving.
As they understand it, as they are indoctrinated, it is their sacred duty to lie.
backscatter712
(26,355 posts)But yes, he pointed out Clapper's tell and said he should never play poker.
GiaGiovanni
(1,247 posts)Oliver is doing such a good job, I've almost forgotten that Stewart is away.
scarletwoman
(31,893 posts)Exactly! They do not even conceive of calling bullshit on this whole misbegotten enterprise! We, the citizens, are being held hostage, and there's no negotiating team working for our release.
sw
woo me with science
(32,139 posts)questionseverything
(9,631 posts), thousands of men were just broken out of various Middle Eastern prisons. Some of them might be genuinely criminal minded, or looking for revenge.
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i mean that would be a legit use
JackRiddler
(24,979 posts)These must have been awfully big operations with a lot of planning beforehand. This supposedly comprehensive intel system that stopped 54 or 154 or 2,054 terror plots (or 1 sort-of, as per the most recent admission) had no idea the breakouts were going to happen... but they know about Al Qaeda's new magic liquid that turns into undetectable explosive when dry.
nashville_brook
(20,958 posts)RedCappedBandit
(5,514 posts)KoKo
(84,711 posts)It's possible...
the NSA revelations will be the last straw that starts to bring a change as more Americans wake up to what is being done "in their name..to themselves" with their own tax money.
They seem so "unhinged" about NSA and other Spying being revealed that they had to resort to doing a Dick Cheney/Tom Ridge Alert. So desperate that "dusting off" the code word "chatter" seems to show panic. Aren't they aware that informed Americans realize that these days sophisticated terrorists (of the ability to do "massive attacks" like they are warning us of) aren't likely to be holding high level planning sessions on SKYPE, Facebook, Twitter or with any kind of Cellphone that they know can be monitored. Even the unsophisticated ones know that we are monitoring everything and have found other ways of managing. The Administration has had to deal with recent prison breaks in Yemen and elsewhere (that have been downplayed in MSM)...How come their "chatter" didn't warn them about those actions coming...or even going back to Benghazi?
I think they went too far with this one.
Civilization2
(649 posts)Money is the motive, as usual,. there is massive cash flow to big Intel!
Cover for the leaks and current focus on the rampant spying will eventually uncover the MONEY trail,... They do not want that!
JackRiddler
(24,979 posts)Because there's nothing very implausible about the idea that random Arabs or Muslims might want to indiscriminately (and wrongly!) murder Americans, given the USG's high-profile international policy of global war, universal jurisdiction, remote-control assassination on executive whim, arbitrary targeting, killing civilians, arming the same "bad guys" who are later called enemies, supporting the absolute worst regimes in the world (starting with the Oil Kingdoms), backing Israeli occupation, maintaining the world's best known site for sadistic torture of randomly arrested brown men, etc. etc.
They've worked so hard to make real enemies!
Civilization2
(649 posts)Yeah sure the warmongers have pushed so very hard, however the 'chatter' is likely always there due to all you list, so the embassy closures does seem timed for effect more than anything. If the 1% want an attack to further their program of wealth extraction they will just pull one anyway,. now that they have so many to blame it on. It just goes on and on, as long as we keep feeding them.
scarletwoman
(31,893 posts)JackRiddler
(24,979 posts)Fire Walk With Me
(38,893 posts)appears to be a move to purposely infuriate people into hating America, perhaps enough to do something about it. Considering the lies and the size of the annual budgets for the military industrial complex and the surveillance state, I wouldn't put it past those in charge to seek to create new terrorists to justify their pig's trough budgets. Cynical but just look around.
JackRiddler
(24,979 posts)Anyone around the targeted area - fair game!
JackRiddler
(24,979 posts)JackRiddler
(24,979 posts)JackRiddler
(24,979 posts)Rex
(65,616 posts)Making that poor general lie under oath...because we all know how worthless the U.S. Constitution has become for the average politician. Reagan set the standard for crapping on the Constitution.