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In case you were curious, Peet's Coffee & Tea has gun sense. (Original Post) Robb Aug 2013 OP
Thanks. I will be buying Peet's Coffee from now on. It is sometimes on sale at my supermarket. CTyankee Aug 2013 #1
If only Starbucks would wake up... hlthe2b Aug 2013 #2
Are not Peet's and Starbucks owned by the same corporation? [n/t] Maedhros Aug 2013 #13
No. kestrel91316 Aug 2013 #40
No they are separate hlthe2b Aug 2013 #42
I thought so, but apparently not: enough Aug 2013 #71
I stand corrected. [n/t] Maedhros Aug 2013 #114
Now that you mention it.. Cha Aug 2013 #3
Aww, did the starbucks boycott fizzle today? n/t X_Digger Aug 2013 #4
Do You Boycott Anything? otohara Aug 2013 #93
Nope, I'm not boycotting anything. X_Digger Aug 2013 #97
Wal-Mart is Evil otohara Aug 2013 #101
Well done, Peet's! Superior coffee, too. Hekate Aug 2013 #5
They can kiss my ass! Yavapai Aug 2013 #6
you poor thang Skittles Aug 2013 #26
Well, bless your heart. truebluegreen Aug 2013 #37
Go ahead, it's a free country. I will go elsewhere because I don't feel comfortable with bluestate10 Aug 2013 #64
Remember that if you are sitting in a gun free zone ... spin Aug 2013 #92
If you want to protect yourself, don't own a gun. SunSeeker Aug 2013 #115
All good points. I still chose to own firearms. ... spin Aug 2013 #122
I'm in! tblue Aug 2013 #7
It's good for their bottom line $$$. California Pizza Kitchen, too. NYC_SKP Aug 2013 #8
The Open Carry people in California have accomplished a lot. Mr.Bill Aug 2013 #12
That they did. As I said, it really backfired on them. NYC_SKP Aug 2013 #100
... and their coffee is rather good too. surrealAmerican Aug 2013 #9
I don't visit Starbucks or Peets, wild bird Aug 2013 #10
It's not about the price of coffee. You also get to rent a table to hang out with a friend... Lucky Luciano Aug 2013 #76
But I can do that in my backyard. wild bird Aug 2013 #102
Not to mention, their coffee is much, much better. n/t MrModerate Aug 2013 #11
That's what a free country looks like Boom Sound 416 Aug 2013 #14
bullshit Skittles Aug 2013 #27
if they Niceguy1 Aug 2013 #45
I think you missed Skittles' sarcasm. nt awoke_in_2003 Aug 2013 #54
probably... Niceguy1 Aug 2013 #58
Yep, and the printed word... awoke_in_2003 Aug 2013 #60
lack of tone Niceguy1 Aug 2013 #65
lack of tone Niceguy1 Aug 2013 #78
Your cat has a lot of say in this? Eleanors38 Aug 2013 #106
whatever lol Niceguy1 Aug 2013 #109
What do you call somebody who can't even walk to the store without packing heat? nomorenomore08 Aug 2013 #80
depends on where you live Niceguy1 Aug 2013 #82
Maybe so. But since CC is banned in most urban areas, I guess it's kind of a moot point... nomorenomore08 Aug 2013 #94
hmm no it isn't. Niceguy1 Aug 2013 #95
Okay, I guess I was mistaken. I was just thinking "big cities = strict gun laws." nomorenomore08 Aug 2013 #96
when people talk about the wild west Niceguy1 Aug 2013 #105
You can hump your gun in any urban area in WI thanks to Criminal Walker. AllyCat Aug 2013 #111
So according to you Walker made it legal to have carnal knowledge of firearms? oneshooter Aug 2013 #121
Free Boom Sound 416 Aug 2013 #88
You are too scared to go get a cup of coffee without your gun? AllyCat Aug 2013 #112
I don't own a gun Boom Sound 416 Aug 2013 #113
Respectfully, where can I find that in the Constitution, or any state equivalent? branford Aug 2013 #53
I live in Texas Skittles Aug 2013 #57
And yet you managed to drink coffee out innumerable times without getting killed or injured. branford Aug 2013 #63
And I manage to drink coffee out innumerable times without getting killed or injured MANY times... CTyankee Aug 2013 #66
gun humpers always try to justify their fear and paranoia Skittles Aug 2013 #69
And are you afraid or paranoid of "gun humpers" Boom Sound 416 Aug 2013 #75
no, they just make me sick Skittles Aug 2013 #86
I refer you to the title of post 27 Boom Sound 416 Aug 2013 #89
and I refer you to Skittles Aug 2013 #91
CT is a shall-issue state. GreenStormCloud Aug 2013 #120
I have no doubt I have. CTyankee Aug 2013 #123
My condolences to you and your family for the loss of your niece. wild bird Aug 2013 #126
thank you. CTyankee Aug 2013 #128
Well. I would say see the OP Boom Sound 416 Aug 2013 #70
They just gained a customer. (nt) oxymoron Aug 2013 #15
And even if you have a concealed carry permit, Mr.Bill Aug 2013 #16
Thank you for the --How To Be A Compliant Victim-- lecture. I'll take it under advisement. branford Aug 2013 #17
Best of luck to you, Mr.Bill Aug 2013 #18
I am responsible for the shots I fire. GreenStormCloud Aug 2013 #29
You are if you start the shooting. Mr.Bill Aug 2013 #31
I am talking about the law. GreenStormCloud Aug 2013 #33
I'm not a lawyer, Mr.Bill Aug 2013 #34
Texas has civil immunity. GreenStormCloud Aug 2013 #36
So if a robbery is happening, Mr.Bill Aug 2013 #38
I would be in the clear anyway, in any state. GreenStormCloud Aug 2013 #62
Are you an attorney? Mr.Bill Aug 2013 #68
The legal aspects of self-defense are part of a CHL class. GreenStormCloud Aug 2013 #119
In many jurisdictions, statutory and common law will protect someone involved in a lawful shooting. branford Aug 2013 #41
Good post. Mr.Bill Aug 2013 #44
I believe in the Constitutional right to keep and bear arms, but . . . branford Aug 2013 #52
As far as I see he's talking about the customers... Not the staff ;-) nt. Blue Idaho Aug 2013 #19
You are correct. Mr.Bill Aug 2013 #22
Good managers will tell their people to do it, too... awoke_in_2003 Aug 2013 #59
Maybe, but I'm not willing to gamble with a clerk's life or safety any more than a patron's branford Aug 2013 #47
I worked retail management for 10 years.... awoke_in_2003 Aug 2013 #55
And I'm not at all saying you're wrong. branford Aug 2013 #61
I am probably more in agreement with you than I originally thought. Mr.Bill Aug 2013 #67
When people are willing to listen, they often find many areas of agreement. branford Aug 2013 #83
Average robbers don't want an incident. So compliance works well for them, they bluestate10 Aug 2013 #73
As I previously stated, I don't own a gun and would likely comply. branford Aug 2013 #81
Now I see how our misunderstanding happened. Mr.Bill Aug 2013 #84
Sorry about the misunderstanding. branford Aug 2013 #85
Hell I've been on consevative forums Mr.Bill Aug 2013 #87
Oh no! pintobean Aug 2013 #20
I don't care who ya are, that's funny right there! n/t Mr.Bill Aug 2013 #24
+1 branford Aug 2013 #56
Agreed. GreenStormCloud Aug 2013 #25
Thank You. Mr.Bill Aug 2013 #28
I totally agree and I carry. ... spin Aug 2013 #30
That all makes sense. Mr.Bill Aug 2013 #32
I had a slightly strange incident happen one time. ... spin Aug 2013 #74
Yeah, sounds like you may have prevented something there. Mr.Bill Aug 2013 #79
On the other hand I might have simply mistaken an innocent situation as far worse. ... spin Aug 2013 #90
Easily the most respectful and productive subthread I've seen on a subject like this. Bazinga Aug 2013 #118
Their business, their right to make that decision. GreenStormCloud Aug 2013 #21
Glad to hear that Peet's policies are as excellent as their coffee. nt Zorra Aug 2013 #23
I read in the article that the policy in California, even where open carry is welcomed, is that Squinch Aug 2013 #35
Like I said in an earlier post, Mr.Bill Aug 2013 #39
Good to know, and good to hear the law was changed to something reasonable. Thanks! Squinch Aug 2013 #43
The Open Carry people have been saying they were going to start carrying shotguns and rifles, Mr.Bill Aug 2013 #46
Open carry of long guns has also been prohibited in CA petronius Aug 2013 #49
Thanks for the info. Mr.Bill Aug 2013 #50
Peet's has been my bean of choice for years. nolabear Aug 2013 #48
We don't have them around here, but if we did, I'd shop there. Aristus Aug 2013 #51
Same here etherealtruth Aug 2013 #77
Good...I choose not to be near gunner shitheads if i can help it alcibiades_mystery Aug 2013 #72
Couldn't have said it better myself... Aristus Aug 2013 #98
+1 SunSeeker Aug 2013 #116
On pulling into my VA hospital parking lot I noticed: moondust Aug 2013 #99
Good to know, thank you. nt wtmusic Aug 2013 #103
If I am ever in a store and see someone carrying a gun, I am out of there as fast as my legs will c appleannie1 Aug 2013 #104
I wouldn't go that far, but I'm sure it would make me nervous to see someone "packing." nomorenomore08 Aug 2013 #107
How is anyone to know if they are not a serial shooter? Or just some hot head looking for a fight? appleannie1 Aug 2013 #108
You could have been right next to a person who oneshooter Aug 2013 #110
This message was self-deleted by its author PorridgeGun Aug 2013 #117
Do they search customers before entering? GreenStormCloud Aug 2013 #124
Baristas have a sixth sense for spotting assholes. Robb Aug 2013 #125
Gun toters will go there anyway mwrguy Aug 2013 #127

CTyankee

(63,773 posts)
1. Thanks. I will be buying Peet's Coffee from now on. It is sometimes on sale at my supermarket.
Sat Aug 24, 2013, 05:45 PM
Aug 2013

It's superior coffee, too. They are obviously conscious of their better educated, socially conscious clientele. But even more than that, they are making COMMON SENSE! Jeez...

THANK YOU, PEET'S COFFEE & TEA!

hlthe2b

(101,730 posts)
2. If only Starbucks would wake up...
Sat Aug 24, 2013, 05:49 PM
Aug 2013

and the gunners that come to scream may as well move on. Given recent "accidental" shootings associated with "responsible good guy" gun owners, I'll take my chances with the bad guys, thank you very much.

I would gladly frequent restaurants, bars, coffee shops and stores that exclude guns and conversely avoid those who knowingly do not.

Like the idiot pastor open carrying an AR15 into an Alabama Walmart recently... As if I needed ANOTHER reason to avoid Walmarts.

enough

(13,237 posts)
71. I thought so, but apparently not:
Sat Aug 24, 2013, 08:45 PM
Aug 2013
http://articles.latimes.com/print/2012/jul/23/business/la-fi-mo-peets-coffee-20120723

Peet's Coffee & Tea sold for nearly $1 billion, but not to Starbucks

July 23, 2012|By Tiffany Hsu

Peet’s Coffee & Tea Inc., the Bay Area-based cafe chain, is going private for $977.6 million – but it’s not being sold to Starbucks, its giant Seattle rival. Instead, German conglomerate Joh. A. Benckiser will shell out $73.50 a share to buy the Emeryville company, paying a 29% premium on Friday’s $57.16 closing price. Peet’s had just under 200 stores as of this spring.

Last spring, Peet’s and Starbucks were rumored to be in talks to combine in an effort to boost both brands’ presence in grocery stores. Peet's founder Alfred Peet knew the Starbucks founders and sold them coffee beans when they launched their business a few years after Peet's first opened.

But now, Peet’s will go to a company better known for its holdings in beauty and luxury. Benckiser owns a majority stake in Coty Inc., the maker of OPI nail polish and celebrity perfumes. Coty recently abandoned its attempts to buy beauty company Avon Products Inc. for $10.7 billion and said it instead plans to raise $700 million in an initial public offering.

Benckiser also owns Labelux, a luxury goods company with brands such as Jimmy Choo and Bally. The deal with Peet’s, which was unanimously approved by the coffee-maker’s board, is expected to close in about three months.

Cha

(295,929 posts)
3. Now that you mention it..
Sat Aug 24, 2013, 05:51 PM
Aug 2013

Good to know!

Thanks Robb, for your relentless information on gun awareness.

 

otohara

(24,135 posts)
93. Do You Boycott Anything?
Sat Aug 24, 2013, 10:31 PM
Aug 2013

like say the Koch Brothers paper products or Coke, McDonald's???

I boycott a lot of things and I am a lot healthier for it.

Fuck Starbucks and their hypocritical gun policy - guns allowed, bullets not, ciggies within 25 feet not.
Bunch of fat fucks traipsing around with their empty guns - it's hilarious.

X_Digger

(18,585 posts)
97. Nope, I'm not boycotting anything.
Sat Aug 24, 2013, 10:47 PM
Aug 2013

I spend my dollars where they provide the most value. That means I sometimes even shop at that ebil Wal-Mart, too.

I don't drink coffee, though, so if it makes you feel better, I suppose you could say I'm *effectively* boycotting starbucks (and peets, and seattle's best, and...)



bluestate10

(10,942 posts)
64. Go ahead, it's a free country. I will go elsewhere because I don't feel comfortable with
Sat Aug 24, 2013, 08:38 PM
Aug 2013

non-official yahoos with guns around me while I am trying to enjoy a meal or snack.

spin

(17,493 posts)
92. Remember that if you are sitting in a gun free zone ...
Sat Aug 24, 2013, 10:22 PM
Aug 2013

your chances of getting shot by a criminal or a person with severe mental problems is far higher than your chance of getting shot by a licensed civilian carrying a handgun.

But the chances as a customer of your getting shot in a restaurant are extremely slim even if there is a no-guns sign on the door. You're more likely to get attacked in the parking lot.

spin

(17,493 posts)
122. All good points. I still chose to own firearms. ...
Mon Aug 26, 2013, 01:46 AM
Aug 2013

Understand that one of my favorite hobbies is target shooting handguns. If I got rid of my handguns, I would be like a golfer without clubs.

tblue

(16,350 posts)
7. I'm in!
Sat Aug 24, 2013, 06:05 PM
Aug 2013

I'll choose Peets now. I remember when it was one little place in Berkeley. Very popular even back then.

 

NYC_SKP

(68,644 posts)
8. It's good for their bottom line $$$. California Pizza Kitchen, too.
Sat Aug 24, 2013, 06:06 PM
Aug 2013

It's all about the Benjamins.

I think whichever gun owner groups have decided to put corporate chains on the spot like this are going to regret it.

I think the plan is 'backfiring'.

No franchise really wants to have a scene similar to what happened in Livermore, California, back in January.

http://blog.sfgate.com/scavenger/2010/01/29/peets-and-cpk-tell-open-carry-customers-no-guns-allowed/

I don't patronize either chain if I can help it, there's usually a Mom and Pop java house around.

Mr.Bill

(24,104 posts)
12. The Open Carry people in California have accomplished a lot.
Sat Aug 24, 2013, 06:55 PM
Aug 2013

It is now illegal in the state of California to open carry handguns.

 

NYC_SKP

(68,644 posts)
100. That they did. As I said, it really backfired on them.
Sat Aug 24, 2013, 10:52 PM
Aug 2013

Fools walking into Starbucks and people calling 911 caused a diversion of police services to this nonsense.

http://articles.latimes.com/2011/oct/10/local/la-me-brown-guns-20111011

surrealAmerican

(11,340 posts)
9. ... and their coffee is rather good too.
Sat Aug 24, 2013, 06:07 PM
Aug 2013

It's a reasonable policy for them, and for many other businesses.

 

wild bird

(421 posts)
10. I don't visit Starbucks or Peets,
Sat Aug 24, 2013, 06:16 PM
Aug 2013

and not because of the whole guns thing, it's because I can make a better cup of coffee at home for a hell of lot cheaper.

Lucky Luciano

(11,242 posts)
76. It's not about the price of coffee. You also get to rent a table to hang out with a friend...
Sat Aug 24, 2013, 09:00 PM
Aug 2013

or do some work or people watch. It is nice to do so when the weather is nice.

 

wild bird

(421 posts)
102. But I can do that in my backyard.
Sat Aug 24, 2013, 11:13 PM
Aug 2013

Invite friends over, fire up the ole BBQ, jump into the pool, have a few drinks or coffee, whatever is appropriate.

Much better in my opinion.

Skittles

(152,967 posts)
27. bullshit
Sat Aug 24, 2013, 07:35 PM
Aug 2013

what about the right of customers to be free of gun humping nut cases who are unable to drink a cup of coffee without being armed?

Niceguy1

(2,467 posts)
45. if they
Sat Aug 24, 2013, 08:04 PM
Aug 2013

Are following the la no such right exists. If I can't see it I don't xare... I prefer to live a life free of paranoias

Niceguy1

(2,467 posts)
65. lack of tone
Sat Aug 24, 2013, 08:39 PM
Aug 2013

Sucks. I hate when I am texting my SO and cat tell if she is pissed, or just messing with me lol

Niceguy1

(2,467 posts)
78. lack of tone
Sat Aug 24, 2013, 09:08 PM
Aug 2013

Sucks. I hate when I am texting my SO and cat tell if she is pissed, or just messing with me lol

nomorenomore08

(13,324 posts)
80. What do you call somebody who can't even walk to the store without packing heat?
Sat Aug 24, 2013, 09:25 PM
Aug 2013

"Free of paranoia" certainly doesn't come to mind...

*Edit: I wasn't referring to you specifically. Just to clarify.

nomorenomore08

(13,324 posts)
96. Okay, I guess I was mistaken. I was just thinking "big cities = strict gun laws."
Sat Aug 24, 2013, 10:44 PM
Aug 2013

Which I suppose isn't true in all cases.

Niceguy1

(2,467 posts)
105. when people talk about the wild west
Sat Aug 24, 2013, 11:16 PM
Aug 2013

Its true, still goes on in our big cities.... we have areas that even the cops like to avoid.

AllyCat

(16,039 posts)
111. You can hump your gun in any urban area in WI thanks to Criminal Walker.
Sun Aug 25, 2013, 10:25 AM
Aug 2013

Went into a Starbucks in Janesville awhile back and couldn't figure out why there were all these pro-gun bumper stickers in the parking lot (including one with a graphic of looking through a sight with the words "this is my peace sign&quot . Next day I read here Gunbucks is the new favorite hangout for those who like to stroke their guns while having a cup of burnt joe from that dreadful establishment. I was with a bunch of little kids and couldn't get out of there fast enough.

oneshooter

(8,614 posts)
121. So according to you Walker made it legal to have carnal knowledge of firearms?
Sun Aug 25, 2013, 10:22 PM
Aug 2013

Are there any age limits?

 

branford

(4,462 posts)
53. Respectfully, where can I find that in the Constitution, or any state equivalent?
Sat Aug 24, 2013, 08:22 PM
Aug 2013

Ironically, you've probably enjoyed many a meal or cup of coffee at any number of establishment with these "gun humping nut cases" without nary an incident or violent encounter, you just didn't realize it at the time.

 

branford

(4,462 posts)
63. And yet you managed to drink coffee out innumerable times without getting killed or injured.
Sat Aug 24, 2013, 08:34 PM
Aug 2013

Nevertheless, I have no objection to a private establishment limiting guns on their premises under most circumstances, such as with Pete's in the OP.

CTyankee

(63,773 posts)
66. And I manage to drink coffee out innumerable times without getting killed or injured MANY times...
Sat Aug 24, 2013, 08:39 PM
Aug 2013

As a matter of fact, it is a common occurrence in CT. Funny, that. We just don't have a fear of that here where we have some semblance of sane gun safety laws...

How in the world did that happen?

Skittles

(152,967 posts)
91. and I refer you to
Sat Aug 24, 2013, 10:19 PM
Aug 2013


sure, cowards are free to be armed getting coffee but I am free to feel nauseated about them

GreenStormCloud

(12,072 posts)
120. CT is a shall-issue state.
Sun Aug 25, 2013, 09:41 PM
Aug 2013

As of Sept 23, 2012 you had 176,446 concealed carry permits in CT. Since then the number has gone up. You have shared public spaces with many of them and didn't realize it.

CTyankee

(63,773 posts)
123. I have no doubt I have.
Mon Aug 26, 2013, 02:03 AM
Aug 2013

One of them was a volunteer of mine when I was on staff at a woman's clinic. We had been thru some loud, annoying picketing by antichoicers and she showed me the pistol she carried in her purse one day when we were sitting in my office. I told her to take her gun home and never bring it with her again to the clinic, if she wished to continue volunteering with us. She agreed to my condition. But I will say that my opinion of her going forward was different. This was only months after my niece was shot to death by her stepgrandfather down in Dallas and the tragedy in my family was indescribable.

 

Boom Sound 416

(4,185 posts)
70. Well. I would say see the OP
Sat Aug 24, 2013, 08:45 PM
Aug 2013

And while I would presume you agree with the OP (as I do) what about the rights of the customers of said establisment that enjoy the rights of the constitution?

I guess they can both just go somewhere else. Yes?

Mr.Bill

(24,104 posts)
16. And even if you have a concealed carry permit,
Sat Aug 24, 2013, 07:01 PM
Aug 2013

I'll thank you to keep your gun in it's holster if I am in a place of business and a hold up goes down. Very seldom are shots fired/people hurt in a hold up if everyone cooperates. We don't need you to start the shooting that would otherwise probably not happen. There is nothing in that cash register worth anyone getting killed over.

 

branford

(4,462 posts)
17. Thank you for the --How To Be A Compliant Victim-- lecture. I'll take it under advisement.
Sat Aug 24, 2013, 07:16 PM
Aug 2013

Every self-defense situation is unique and must be separately evaluated. However, the use of a firearm in the commission of a felony, such as the robbery you cite, is prima facie evidence of the willingness to use lethal force against an innocent, and would justify a lethal response even in my VERY anti-gun home town of NYC.

As to Pete's policy, I both support the Second Amendment AND have no objection to the owner of a private establishment setting policy on their premises, so long as it does not infringe on other fundamental rights (e.g., refusal to serve someone because of race, etc.). Potential patrons can decide how they wish to react. I, personally, see such an obvious sign as an invitation to robbery or vandalism, but it certainly is not my decision.

Mr.Bill

(24,104 posts)
18. Best of luck to you,
Sat Aug 24, 2013, 07:21 PM
Aug 2013

but every cop I know agrees with me. If you pull out your gun and shoot first, make sure you're good enough to drop him with the first shot, and be prepared to take responsibility for every injury and death that happens from return fire.

Oh, and I hope the bad guy you pull your gun on doesn't have an accomplice you didn't see that drops you first.

Mr.Bill

(24,104 posts)
31. You are if you start the shooting.
Sat Aug 24, 2013, 07:41 PM
Aug 2013

That's how I see it. I'm sure you wont agree, but we will have to agree to disagree.

GreenStormCloud

(12,072 posts)
33. I am talking about the law.
Sat Aug 24, 2013, 07:44 PM
Aug 2013

If the situation is such that I am legally allowed to shoot, then I am legally responsible only for those rounds that I fire.

GreenStormCloud

(12,072 posts)
36. Texas has civil immunity.
Sat Aug 24, 2013, 07:49 PM
Aug 2013

If my shooting is legally justified, then I can't be sued. The criminal can be sued, but they usually don't have any money anyway.

Remember, I will only bring my gun into action if my own life, or my wife's, is in deadly peril. Otherwise, I will leave bad enough alone and not make it worse.

Mr.Bill

(24,104 posts)
38. So if a robbery is happening,
Sat Aug 24, 2013, 07:54 PM
Aug 2013

and you pull your gun and start shooting, and a robber's accomplice you didn't see shoots my wife, you're in the clear. Thanks for reminding me of yet another reason to not live in Texas.

GreenStormCloud

(12,072 posts)
62. I would be in the clear anyway, in any state.
Sat Aug 24, 2013, 08:32 PM
Aug 2013

You can't hold me responsible for the illegal actions of someone else. Yes, you could sue, but the defense against such a suit is easy.

Mr.Bill

(24,104 posts)
68. Are you an attorney?
Sat Aug 24, 2013, 08:42 PM
Aug 2013

It would probably cost you thousands of dollars to defend yourself against such a suit.

GreenStormCloud

(12,072 posts)
119. The legal aspects of self-defense are part of a CHL class.
Sun Aug 25, 2013, 09:34 PM
Aug 2013

Further, I have done extensive reading on the subject, by recognized authors. It may cost some money to defend against frivolous lawsuit, but the alternative would be to allow some thug to kill me. I hope you will understand if I choose to stay alive in such a situation. Remember, my gun will not come out unless my own life or my wife's is in danger. The person who is suing will be trying to claim that I should have allowed myself to be killed.

 

branford

(4,462 posts)
41. In many jurisdictions, statutory and common law will protect someone involved in a lawful shooting.
Sat Aug 24, 2013, 07:58 PM
Aug 2013

Also, note that I said that every situation is unique and must be evaluated. Even with legal immunity, a responsible, lawfully armed citizen should consider the risk to innocent bystanders. I just happened to find your blanket advice to quietly comply with a violent criminal because an armed robber probably will not kill or seriously injure you to be far too neat and simple.

Ironically, I do not own a gun, and I would probably not shoot it if one came into my possession in your hypothetical because I would likely increase the chances of injury to myself or others without actually stopping the criminal. However, I luckily have never been in such potentially a life or death situation, and would understand if someone believed or behaved differently, particularly if they had more training or experience with firearms.

Mr.Bill

(24,104 posts)
44. Good post.
Sat Aug 24, 2013, 08:02 PM
Aug 2013

I will agree that I perhaps over-simplified the situation. I just like my odds better in a room where no bullets are flying than in one where they are. And yes, I have had guns pointed at me.

 

branford

(4,462 posts)
52. I believe in the Constitutional right to keep and bear arms, but . . .
Sat Aug 24, 2013, 08:18 PM
Aug 2013

I most certainly do not believe that owning and carrying a gun requires that it be drawn, no less fired, in every potentially risky or violent situation. We agree that Main Street, USA is not the OK Corral.

I also believe that if one chooses to own and carry a firearm, they should be very familiar with the relevant laws in their jurisdiction and be properly trained in the use of the weapon.

As with any right, it should be exercised with care and responsibility.

Similarly, I do not believe that the comparatively few who abuse such rights, justify curtailment of those rights by the otherwise law-abiding members of our society.


Mr.Bill

(24,104 posts)
22. You are correct.
Sat Aug 24, 2013, 07:28 PM
Aug 2013

But even the police will tell the person being robbed to cooperate with the robber, and have a much better chance of living to talk about it. I'll take being a compliant live victim over being a dead hero anyday.

 

awoke_in_2003

(34,582 posts)
59. Good managers will tell their people to do it, too...
Sat Aug 24, 2013, 08:29 PM
Aug 2013

hell, put the money in a bag if they want it- just give them the money.

 

branford

(4,462 posts)
47. Maybe, but I'm not willing to gamble with a clerk's life or safety any more than a patron's
Sat Aug 24, 2013, 08:06 PM
Aug 2013

I'm not even saying that you definitely should have a gun or that the proper response is always to shoot at an armed assailant. I'm objecting to the poster's apparent belief that quiet compliance is always the best policy.

Even if compliance was generally the safest route, every situation must be evaluated on the merits and as understood by the individual at the time and place their life is threatened. Owning and carrying a firearm simply provides additional options in a life and death scenario.





 

awoke_in_2003

(34,582 posts)
55. I worked retail management for 10 years....
Sat Aug 24, 2013, 08:24 PM
Aug 2013

the one thing we pounded into peoples' heads- don't be a hero. Open the register and give them all the money. The loss of a couple hundred dollars is not worth the loss of a person.

 

branford

(4,462 posts)
61. And I'm not at all saying you're wrong.
Sat Aug 24, 2013, 08:31 PM
Aug 2013

Particularly since I value the lives of the clerk and the customer far more than the armed assailant.

If you would be kind enough to read my follow-up posts, my objection was to the blanket advice that compliance is always the better option. I readily conceded that may be generally true, and the option that I would personally employ, but every situation is different.

I most certainly do not object to legally carrying a firearm for self-defense purposes, but I do not believe that it is always the most prudent or safest path to draw, no less fire, the weapon in every potentially risky or violent encounter.

Mr.Bill

(24,104 posts)
67. I am probably more in agreement with you than I originally thought.
Sat Aug 24, 2013, 08:40 PM
Aug 2013

All I meant was that odds are things have a better chance of going well if nobody starts shooting. But I can agree that every situation is different and must be evaluated. By the way, I believe in the right to carry concealed. I will not discuss whether I do or not on a public forum, but I'll just say permits are not hard to get where I live. Thank you for a sensible discussion.

bluestate10

(10,942 posts)
73. Average robbers don't want an incident. So compliance works well for them, they
Sat Aug 24, 2013, 08:48 PM
Aug 2013

get the money and leave. If you run into a robber that wants guns play I suggest you not have your gun because you would have run into a killer who will likely end up killing you if you get in his or her way.

 

branford

(4,462 posts)
81. As I previously stated, I don't own a gun and would likely comply.
Sat Aug 24, 2013, 09:29 PM
Aug 2013

We are in far less disagreement than you appear to imply.

I simply believe that if one chooses to legally carry a gun, it provides them with another option in a violent encounter. All options and repercussions should be considered when faced with death or serious bodily injury. I could care less if an establishment loses money in a robbery, the potential loss of life of the clerk or innocent patrons, no less of me or my loved ones, is another matter entirely.

Although I do not mean to be flippant, I do have question concerning you comment: How does one determine in the heat of the moment if you are being threatened only by an "average" robber? And is firearm use acceptable when the robber is anything but average (high on drugs, etc.)?

Mr.Bill

(24,104 posts)
84. Now I see how our misunderstanding happened.
Sat Aug 24, 2013, 09:43 PM
Aug 2013

If you re-read my post #16, I never used the word always. I said in most cases, no one gets hurt in a robbery where everyone complies. No two situations are ever the same, and you can never say always. That's why I used word like seldom and probably.

 

branford

(4,462 posts)
85. Sorry about the misunderstanding.
Sat Aug 24, 2013, 09:53 PM
Aug 2013

Unfortunately, when talking about guns on DU, people, obviously including me, are so used to the typical comments and rants that we often seem to read what we expect to see, not what the writer actually states or intends.

Unfortunately, many of the "gun humper" comments and other posts with "colorful" language are continuing the tradition of not-so civil discourse about firearms on DU. It's a pity.

I bet some of those who made comments about me missed the fact that I have no substantive objections to Pete's policy on guns on their private premises.

Mr.Bill

(24,104 posts)
87. Hell I've been on consevative forums
Sat Aug 24, 2013, 09:58 PM
Aug 2013

where my comments in this thread would have resulted in death threats in my PM box by now.

GreenStormCloud

(12,072 posts)
25. Agreed.
Sat Aug 24, 2013, 07:34 PM
Aug 2013

I have a CHL and carry rountinely. My gun is to defend myself, not some store's cash register which is almost certainly insured anyway. I don't want to get into a gunfight to save an insurance company some money. If my gun comes out it will be because I have decided that my own life (or that of my wife) is in deadly peril. If the store is getting robbed, I will take careful observations (Yes, I have had training for that.) and be a good witness.

spin

(17,493 posts)
30. I totally agree and I carry. ...
Sat Aug 24, 2013, 07:40 PM
Aug 2013

It is quite possible that shooting at a robber may escalate the situation and more people might end up injured or dead than if the person with the concealed weapon merely observed and tried to remember details about the robber or robbers.

Unfortunately there are times when the robbery turns violent and clerks and customers get shot by the robbers.

This happened within walking distance of where I lived in Tampa.


In trial, a portrait of murder


By COLLEEN JENKINS
Published May 16, 2007


A witness provides a chilling image of the Subway killing of 2004.

A hooded man hovered behind Subway employee Danielle Miller. He pointed a gun, yelling for her to open the cash register. Freaked out, 22-year-old Miller fumbled with the touch screen.

She worked at the Town 'N Country sandwich shop to fund her education at the International Academy of Design & Technology. Just 26 seconds earlier, she had served her final customer his sandwich.

Now she couldn't open the register.

Girl, you're too slow, " the gunman said, according to a witness. "You gots to die."

He shot Miller three times. She fell to the floor.
http://www.sptimes.com/2007/05/16/Hillsborough/In_trial__a_portrait_.shtml


Once before another robbery ended tragically at a gas station connivance store within also walking distance of my home. In this incident the female clerk gave the robbers the money but they shot her to death as they were leaving the store.

Several years after the incident I pulled into this same station to fuel up my car and I didn't think anything of the police car by the entrance. When I tried to pump my gas, the pump would not function. A police officer appeared at the door of the store and yelled at me that a robbery had just happened and the pumps had been turned off.

The next day I stopped at the station and asked the clerk what had went down. He said, "Some kid walked in and pointed a gun at me. I gave him the money in the register and he left. No big deal."

Had I been inside the store a few minutes before I might have been in the middle of a bad situation. I would have calmly observed but if I had sensed that things were about to go seriously downhill or if the robber had shot the clerk, I would have been willing to use the snub nosed .38 revolver in my pocket to attempt to stop the robber.

spin

(17,493 posts)
74. I had a slightly strange incident happen one time. ...
Sat Aug 24, 2013, 08:55 PM
Aug 2013

I was headed to work on the graveyard shift and I stopped at a Walgreens liquor store in Town 'N Country in Tampa. I needed some cigars to enjoy on break time at work and because of theft, Walgreens had decided to move all their tobacco products to the attached liquor store.

I entered the store and there were only two young male customers and the clerk inside. Something set off my situational awareness about the two customers. One was walking up to the counter and the other was acting erratic and nervous and was rapidly pacing up and down the aisles.

I picked up a pack of cigars and approached the counter. The guy who was checking out offered me the opportunity to go first. I politely declined and stepped back by a row of counters placing my hand in my pocket on my snub nosed revolver. The guy at the counter then reached in his pocket and announced that he must have left his wallet in his car. He left his purchases on the counter and exited the store to retrieve it. Several minutes later he returned and looked at me appearing slightly frustrated. I smiled.

The clerk rang up his purchases and both guys left the store. I felt the clerk looked slightly relieved.

I stayed in the store for another ten minutes bullshitting with the clerk who I had often talked to before. Consequently I was late for work but since I was the shift supervisor I didn't get any heat.

Now perhaps my imagination was in overdrive that night. If so that is the only time that I have ever had the hairs on the back of my neck stand up since I have started to regularly carry a handgun for over fifteen years.



Mr.Bill

(24,104 posts)
79. Yeah, sounds like you may have prevented something there.
Sat Aug 24, 2013, 09:18 PM
Aug 2013

The good thing is you were aware of your surroundings, kept your head and evaluated the situation before taking any action you may regret later. That was the proper thing to do. Glad it turned out well.

spin

(17,493 posts)
90. On the other hand I might have simply mistaken an innocent situation as far worse. ...
Sat Aug 24, 2013, 10:12 PM
Aug 2013

But fortunately all turned out well.

It did cause me to consider exactly what I should have done if the guy at the counter had whipped out a gun and pointed it at the clerk.

Since the guy at the counter appeared rational and not drunk or high, I feel my best approach would have been to merely observe. Of course I have taken some criticism from those who knew I carried on a regular basis but the bottom line is all is well that ends well. The highest probability is the clerk would have complied and the robbers would have left.

If the robber would have shot the clerk, I would have had good reason to fear for my life as I was a witness and I could have been next. Hopefully I would have been able to shoot my handgun accurately enough to stop his attack.

But if the clerk would have been shot, I would have to live with the fact that I might have been able to intervene before he did so. Still even if I shot the robber afterward, I would have to live with that fact too. Often when a cop shoots another person and it is entirely justified, he has to seek professional counseling. Shooting another person is a traumatic,life changing event. I hope and pray that I never find myself in such a situation. I currently sleep well at night with good dreams and not nightmares.

One factor that might have made a difference if the guy at the counter was actually planning to rob the clerk was that I was wearing a photographer's vest. I always wore one to work and it was loaded with tools and supplies to help my crew do their job and make it through the long nights on the 3rd shift. Not only did the vest have flashlights and tools but it was also a medicine cabinet.

But a photographer's vest without a camera is also a dead giveaway that you are packing heat in the hot months in Florida. The guy at the counter might have noticed this and also the fact that I my hand was in my pocket and moved back toward cover if I needed it.

Bazinga

(331 posts)
118. Easily the most respectful and productive subthread I've seen on a subject like this.
Sun Aug 25, 2013, 06:30 PM
Aug 2013

And for that I thank you.

I would only add that an armed person still has the option to comply, but an unarmed person does not have the option of armed self-defense should compliance fail.

GreenStormCloud

(12,072 posts)
21. Their business, their right to make that decision.
Sat Aug 24, 2013, 07:26 PM
Aug 2013

I suport their right to make their own decision, even while I think the decision is stupid.

They don't have any stores in Texas so it doesn't effect me.

Squinch

(50,774 posts)
35. I read in the article that the policy in California, even where open carry is welcomed, is that
Sat Aug 24, 2013, 07:48 PM
Aug 2013

the gun has to be unloaded and holstered, and the ammunition has to be carried separately from the gun.

So what advantage is there to those who insist on carrying big guns where everyone can see them other than to intimidate other people? Why not just open carry two-by-fours which are more readily used for self protection?

Truly, these Rambo's who need a gun to go to Starbucks are just seeming more and more silly.

Mr.Bill

(24,104 posts)
39. Like I said in an earlier post,
Sat Aug 24, 2013, 07:58 PM
Aug 2013

California has since made it illegal to open carry handguns period. What you posted was correct before the new law was passed. The ammunition magazine could be carried on the belt right next to the holster. A trained person could have the gun loaded within seconds. Also, in counties with a population less than 200,000, such as the one where I live, the gun was allowed to be loaded.

Mr.Bill

(24,104 posts)
46. The Open Carry people have been saying they were going to start carrying shotguns and rifles,
Sat Aug 24, 2013, 08:05 PM
Aug 2013

but I have not yet heard of them doing so. It would be counter productive to their cause, because those guns would also then be banned, given the makeup of our state legislature and governor.

petronius

(26,581 posts)
49. Open carry of long guns has also been prohibited in CA
Sat Aug 24, 2013, 08:08 PM
Aug 2013

Exceptions exist for for both long guns and hand guns, of course (obviously you can still hunt and engage in other shooting sports at appropriate places, security guards can get open-carry permits, people can do what they want on private property, movie sets and other entertainments can still operate, etc), but general open-carry is effectively non-existent in CA...

nolabear

(41,915 posts)
48. Peet's has been my bean of choice for years.
Sat Aug 24, 2013, 08:07 PM
Aug 2013

Very good dark roasts. I've always found Starbucks to be sour. But that's me.

Aristus

(66,099 posts)
51. We don't have them around here, but if we did, I'd shop there.
Sat Aug 24, 2013, 08:16 PM
Aug 2013

Since Starbuck's bowed to the gun-humpers back in 2006 or 7, I've spent my coffee money at locally-pwned small business establishments.

etherealtruth

(22,165 posts)
77. Same here
Sat Aug 24, 2013, 09:04 PM
Aug 2013

I may be a rube, but I drink black coffee only and absolutely love Dunkin Donuts coffee ... I would definitely support a coffee house chain with a stated "no guns" policy!

 

alcibiades_mystery

(36,437 posts)
72. Good...I choose not to be near gunner shitheads if i can help it
Sat Aug 24, 2013, 08:46 PM
Aug 2013

I certainly don't want my kids near idiot gunners carrying guns around the streets with no formal LEO training.

More businesses should give us the choice of avoiding these assholes.

appleannie1

(5,044 posts)
104. If I am ever in a store and see someone carrying a gun, I am out of there as fast as my legs will c
Sat Aug 24, 2013, 11:16 PM
Aug 2013

carry me and I will buy what I am looking for somewhere else. So if stores want my money, they will not allow guns in their store.

nomorenomore08

(13,324 posts)
107. I wouldn't go that far, but I'm sure it would make me nervous to see someone "packing."
Sat Aug 24, 2013, 11:20 PM
Aug 2013

I certainly don't subscribe to the "MORE GUNS EVERYWHERE" philosophy of some folks out there.

appleannie1

(5,044 posts)
108. How is anyone to know if they are not a serial shooter? Or just some hot head looking for a fight?
Sat Aug 24, 2013, 11:23 PM
Aug 2013

I am not going to stick around to find out.

Response to Robb (Original post)

mwrguy

(3,245 posts)
127. Gun toters will go there anyway
Mon Aug 26, 2013, 07:16 PM
Aug 2013

Gun nuts are not known for obeying the law or the wishes of property owners.

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