"Nobody could have known!" (Millions of us knew) "Nobody told us!"

[kpete]

Last edited Thu Aug 29, 2013, 10:43 AM - Edit history (5)

Obama: U.S. Has 'Concluded' Syrian Government Behind Attacks... Presents No Direct Evidence... State Dept. Admits It Doesn't Know Who Ordered Attack...
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/08/28/us-syria-conflict_n_3827964.html

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And when all the lies came to light post-war, the great wailing and gnashing of teeth went up. "Nobody could have known!" (Millions of us knew) "Nobody told us!" (No official sources, but in theory you're grownups and should know better than to trust "official sources".)

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/08/29/1234688/-Syria-Kurdish-leader-says-Assad-NOT-to-blame-for-gas

NOT A SLAM DUNK BY ANY MEANS:

As reported by Reuters:

Syrian President Bashar al-Assad would not be "so stupid" as to use chemical weapons close to Damascus, the leader of the country's largest Kurdish group said.

Saleh Muslim, head of the Kurdish Democratic Union Party (PYD), said he doubted the Syrian president would resort to using such weapons when he felt he had the upper hand in the country's civil war.

He suggested last Wednesday's attack, which the opposition says was carried out by government forces and killed hundreds of people, was aimed at framing Assad and provoking an international reaction.

...........

Read it all. At least you won't be taken by surprise in the postwar world
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/08/27/us-syria-crisis-kurds-idUSBRE97Q0LP20130827

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US intel community says case against Assad no ‘slam dunk’

WASHINGTON (AP) — The intelligence linking Syrian President Bashar Assad or his inner circle to an alleged chemical weapons attack that killed at least 100 people is no “slam dunk,” with questions remaining about who actually controls some of Syria’s chemical weapons stores and doubts about whether Assad himself ordered the strike, US intelligence officials say.
...
However, multiple US officials used the phrase “not a slam dunk” to describe the intelligence picture — a reference to then-CIA Director George Tenet’s insistence in 2002 that US intelligence showing Iraq had weapons of mass destruction was a “slam dunk” — intelligence that turned out to be wrong.

A report by the Office of the Director for National Intelligence outlining that evidence against Syria is thick with caveats. It builds a case that Assad’s forces are most likely responsible while outlining gaps in the US intelligence picture. Relevant congressional committees were to be briefed on that evidence by teleconference call on Thursday, US officials and congressional aides said.

The complicated intelligence picture raises questions about the White House’s full-steam-ahead approach to the August 21 attack on a rebel-held Damascus suburb, with worries that the attack could be tied to al-Qaida-backed rebels later. Administration officials said Wednesday that neither the UN Security Council, which is deciding whether to weigh in, or allies’ concerns would affect their plans.

http://www.timesofisrael.com/us-intel-community-says-case-against-assad-no-slam-dunk/

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we have lost our moral authority to be drawing 'red lines' anywhere regarding sarin usage.

April 1988: Sarin was used four times against Iranian soldiers in April 1988 at the end of the Iran–Iraq War, helping Iraqi forces to retake control of the al-Faw Peninsula during the Second Battle of al-Faw.
Using satellite imagery, the United States assisted Iraqi forces in
locating the position of the Iranian troops during those attacks.

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2013/08/25/secret_cia_files_prove_america_helped_saddam_as_he_gassed_iran?page=0,2

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Before The Bombs Drop

I don't claim to always know how to save the world, I just know we're willing to spend orders of magnitude more money to blow people up in order to save them than we are willing to spend on any other kind of "humanitarian" aid. When that changes, I'll be a bit more open to the bombs dropping.

http://www.eschatonblog.com/2013/08/before-bombs-drop.html

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They know of no solutions to the paradoxes of the Middle East and Europe, the Far East and Africa except the landing of Marines. Being baffled, and also being very tired of being baffled, they have come to believe that there is no way out -- except war -- which would remove all the bewildering paradoxes of their tedious and now misguided attempts to construct peace. In place of these paradoxes they prefer the bright, clear problems of war...

http://www.iwise.com/Gv68U
More here:
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/08/28/1234649/--Crackpot-Realism-and-Military-Intervention-in-Syria

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Rush to Western Strike on Syria slows, but does not Stall
Posted on 08/29/2013 by Juan Cole

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

President Obama has probably boxed himself into rather uselessly tossing a couple of cruise missiles onto Damascus next week. For a thoughtful man he often seems to lock himself into undesirable courses of action by ill-considered and hasty public remarks. But whatever he does, it seems clear that it won’t have the kind of multilateral framework he prefers, and he’ll have to cowboy it.

Wasn’t that where he came in?

http://www.juancole.com/2013/08/western-strike-stall.html

[Coyotl]

1. Will DU be surprised if Obama is NOT a Neocon aggressor?

I'm speaking of the Trolls, of course

[el_bryanto]

5. I suspect some trolls will be surprised and others won't be.

It depends on which side of the bridge the troll is standing on.

There are plenty of trolls to go around.

Bryant

[grahamhgreen]

12. I'll be shocked. But then again, the constant drone for war has not taken hold as yet, and he may be

forced to do his job - represent the people that elected him.

For once.

[crim son]

16. "Neocon"? I don't think any of us will be surprised if he isn't that.

And I don't see what you find so amusing.

[Rex]

20. He is on a role today, carrying the BFEEs water.

nt.

[zeemike]

2. K&R.

[JEB]

3. "we have lost our moral authority to be drawing 'red lines' anywhere regarding sarin usage."

Pretty well sums it up.

[tavalon]

7. Spot on

I am still trying to make Obama a good man, in my mind, one who will go on to be a humanitarian like Carter after this soul sickening time of being President. But, fuck, I'm beginning to feel a bit like a pretzel.

I never, ever, ever thought I would say this, but it was almost easier dealing with this crap from Cheney, er, I mean the shrub.

[crim son]

17. I've thought the same, many times.

We have become immune, somewhat, from political shock and eight years of the shrub did it to us... made us numb, dulled our sense of outrage. To what degree this contributes to the odd complicity evident here on DU, with affronts at least as bad as the shrub's, I couldn't say. I could guess, but couldn't say without risking being banned from this site.

[MisterP]

23. it's always interesting looking at that mental reaction from outside

why start with the premise that X is such a wonderful person that their actions always have to be other than what they are?

[Coyotl]

8. Your so-called "moral authority" is a massive problem we need to overcome.

It was President Taft who said the US flag would fly from pole to pole due to the moral superiority of the white race!

Big stick, red line, all the same bullshit when used as an excuse for imperialist aggression.

[Marr]

4. Rec

I cannot believe that, just a few short years after the Iraq con job, we are very literally being sold another military action on no more than a "trust us" from our government.

I don't just believe anything a government says when it comes to justifying military action. If they don't have any evidence, then this is even less than Colin Powell's *DRAWINGS* of trucks, and anyone who parrots it is, at best, a sucker.

[KG]

6. in the context of US involvement, it matters not who loosed the the chemical weapons.

[upi402]

9. we are now trolls here if we think like actual Democrats?

uh yep, guess so!

Republican Underground... it pays the mortgage.

[bvar22]

10. DURec.

Good compilation.

Marking for future reference.

Kicked & Rec'ed for wider exposure.

[KansDem]

11. We know who did it...

We know who authorized it; we know who made the gas and who supplied it.

We collect one billion communications a day, so tell the NSA guys to stop stalking their ex-girlfriends and start sifting...

[Ocelot]

13. No justification, period

A bunch of BS just like Bush's aluminum tubes. No one knows who ordered the attack, no one knows who carried it out, it's that simple. K&R

[Cleita]

14. The Brits have announced that they are going to wait for the results from the UN

inspectors and then let Parliament debate it first. Why can't we do the same? Obama needs to reconvene Congress to debate this and make recommendations instead of going off on his own because he surrounded by hawks and Wall Streeters who stand to gain from this. Also because we know this wont end well, at least Congress will share the blame when history judges us.

[alfredo]

15. I hope he does wait for the evidence.

If it was a local army commander going rogue, the Syrian government should hold him accountable. If not, then they are complicit.

[BlueStreak]

18. The first question should always be "cui bono?"

Who benefits from a big escalation?

I can see a lot of people.

al Qaeda obviously does.
Hezbollah (and indirectly Iran) does.
The right-wingers that rule Israel certainly benefit because this take the pressure off a peace process.
The oil states do if that raises the bbl price of oil.
I could even see an argument where Putin benefits, and China is always happy to see the US piss away resources and global influence on these invasions.

The one person that doesn't benefit from an escalation is Assad. He would have to be a complete moron to have gassed his people.

Are there other players who could have done this?

[AverageJoe90]

21. There's one problem, though: China's prosperity isn't likely to last.....

And when that bubble DOES burst, and it *will* unless a miracle happens(i.e., democracy in China).....let's just say it won't be pretty, and might make our current worries over Al-Assad look like a Tea Party.....

[BlueStreak]

22. What cannot continue indefinitely is this:

We can't continue eliminating good-paying jobs in America and still have the money to buy all those Chinese goods. China is already financing a lot of that with their purchase of US debt.

But I don't know that this will end in a single cataclysmic event, like the bursting of a bubble. I think it is more likely that the US middle class will continue to get ground down to the point that it isn't such a great market for Chinese goods. At that time, the Chinese will be more interested in their own advancing middle class and the populations in Brazil and elsewhere that might be ascending.

The thing that guarantees this direction will continue is the ~ 1 Trillion a year we piss away with our arms industry. That mikes some nice money for the weapons merchants, but it really doesn't add anything useful to our economy. It doesn't make us more productive. it doesn't make us more competitive. It doesn't make us better educated. It doesn't make our products easier to well worldwide. It is just a gigantic ball and chain that we carry around, and it is getting heavier every year.

[Uncle Joe]

19. Kicked and recommended.

Thanks for the thread, kpete.

[KoKo]

24. Just watched Steve Clemons vs. Tariq Ali on "Democracy Now."

Steve was working hard to say that "SIG NET Intelligence" had convinced him that Assad or "Someone in his Lower Chain of Command" had ordered the chem attack. He expressed that he thought Obama should never have used the "Red Line," but that he felt that Obama felt strongly about the use of Chem Weapons and that was the reason he was compelled to do an attack. He said he had come to believe that the Invasion of Iraq was wrong being based on false information, but "this time" he feels the Intelligence Reports are correct. Amy asked him if he had "SEEN" the reports. He said no...but it was based on people he trusted and he hoped that Obama would release the reports so that the American People could see them.

When asked by Amy and Juan further about why he should believe these reports even though he knew we had not had correct information going into Iraq he just kept saying that he thought that if Obama does the strategic attack that he was sincerely looking to start the PEACE NEGOTIATIONS between China, Russia and Syria to contain the conflict.
He believes that Obama will start these negotiations after the attack.

(There's a Bridge in Brooklyn I'd like to try to sell to Steve Clemons. He's a very nice guy...and worked with Chalmers Johnson for awhile...but, I think he's been drinking Kool Aid)