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bigtree

(85,986 posts)
Wed Sep 4, 2013, 10:59 AM Sep 2013

Empire

Last edited Thu Sep 5, 2013, 09:25 AM - Edit history (1)

__________________________

It would be illegal for the president to unilaterally wage war just to punish Syria . . . it is required by law that there be some demonstrable threat to the U.S. or our allies; or some imminent attack, in order for the CiC to unilaterally order the use of force.

The authority the WH is seeking is just an opportunistic attempt to be granted as much authority to meddle in Syria's civil war as they can manage out of Congress.

If that wasn't arrogant enough, they insist that NONE of that congressional (or UN) authority is actually needed for the President to unilaterally to ramp up and deliver a military 'message' to Assad.

"He gassed his own people."

That's the refrain Bush used to keep Americans chastened enough to allow him to use the force and threat of our military to meddle in Iraq's political affairs. It's, perhaps, coincidentally, the same hook the Obama administration is using to assuage Americans' and our legislators' ambivalence about unleashing our own destructive violence in response to another nation's leader's alleged violence inside of his own country.

'Syria isn't Iraq or Afghanistan,' goes the defense against such comparisons. 'Bush lied about WMDs in Iraq,' or something to that effect, 'and, Obama told the truth about chemical weapons in Syria.

Yet, it makes no difference at all that one justification for the use of military force abroad is a lie and the other isn't. BOTH distort and misrepresent the actual threat to our national security for the exact same reason.

BOTH Bush and Obama made their representations of the threat to the U.S. in order to declare and secure their unilateral authority to use our military forces (at least initially) any way they see fit, without congressional pre-approval - justified almost entirely in their view by their opportunistic declarations that our security is threatened.

That was the slippery slope that Bush used to war. That's the slope that Pres. Obama used to escalate Bush's Afghanistan occupation far beyond the former republican presidency's limits - with the catastrophic result of scores more casualties than Bush to our forces during this Democratic administration's first term and scores more innocent Afghans dead, maimed, or uprooted.

In pressing forward with a U.S. military response to the atrocities committed within Syria, this Democratic president is losing almost all of the ground we thought we'd covered in repudiating the opportunistic Bush wars. Bush's were waged, certainly, for oil and other greed; but just as certainly to effect U.S. expansionist ideals involving regime changes and 'dominoes.'

This Democratic administration is looking for a military wedge inside Syria to effect much the same idealistic set of political aims in that country and the region that the Bush leadership was obsessed with. It's carried forward by this self-important notion that the U.S. is in a position to dictate to other nations it's own versions of opportunistically constructed democracies which serve to elevate one U.S.-interested ideal over other equally pernicious and malicious ones.

The results, worldwide, of contemporary U.S. interventionism, speak for themselves. The Obama administration, almost blithely, is hoping that their Syrian 'misadventure' says something uniquely democratic and inspiring to countries which pose no actual threat to our nation. I'm afraid that all any one outside of this country will hear is 'empire.'

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Empire (Original Post) bigtree Sep 2013 OP
This ProSense Sep 2013 #1
to paraphrase William Munny 'legal's got nothing to do with it...' KG Sep 2013 #2
100% correct malaise Sep 2013 #3
So, if nobody is willing to punish Assad for breaking international law, Nye Bevan Sep 2013 #4
I just had to read your post three times to absorb it. Whatever happens will be tragic. KittyWampus Sep 2013 #7
I heard Marco Rubio using the argument that Assad is supporting Al Qaeda jakeXT Sep 2013 #5
Now now... it's only illegal if anyone can do anything about it. Thought you knew better! ;) n/t 1awake Sep 2013 #6
When did the US become the world's mommy & daddy? MindPilot Sep 2013 #8
An attack on Syria is a threat to US national security, and a crime even with Congressional approval Coyotl Sep 2013 #9
Why is it illegal? treestar Sep 2013 #10
I reject the notion that 'emotion' shouldn't figure into our view. So does the WH bigtree Sep 2013 #11
actual threat is an element treestar Sep 2013 #20
Under INTERNATIONAL LAW, treestar. You know, the "Laws of War"??? Romulox Sep 2013 #13
He should try punishing Wall Street bankers then go international nt daa Sep 2013 #12
You always present such thoughtful analysis. Other than agreeing with you, all I have is thanks n/t Catherina Sep 2013 #14
Of course... ocpagu Sep 2013 #15
And that he's not wearing a stitch of new clothing. Naked as a jaybird. Catherina Sep 2013 #17
Why can't we just sit back and let France or whoever run the show instead?? Blue_Tires Sep 2013 #16
France is whining that they can't go it alone against their former colony Catherina Sep 2013 #18
Ok but what are suggesting ? Sand Wind Sep 2013 #19
DURec. bvar22 Sep 2013 #21

ProSense

(116,464 posts)
1. This
Wed Sep 4, 2013, 11:09 AM
Sep 2013

"The authority the WH is seeking is just an opportunistic attempt to be granted as much authority to meddle in Syria's civil war as they can manage out of Congress.

If that wasn't arrogant enough, they insist that NONE of that congressional (or UN) authority is actually needed for the President to unilaterally to ramp up and deliver a military 'message' to Assad."

...has been a standard for Presidents.

President Clinton launched three illegal wars against Iraq
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023589265

"BOTH Bush and Obama made their representations of the threat to the U.S. in order to declare and secure their unilateral authority to use our military forces (at least initially) any way they see fit, without congressional pre-approval - justified almost entirely in their view by their opportunistic declarations that our security is threatened.

That was the slippery slope that Bush used to war. That's the slope that Pres. Obama used to escalate Bush's Afghanistan occupation far beyond the former republican presidency's limits - with the catastrophic result of scores more casualties than Bush to our forces during this Democratic administration's first term and scores more innocent Afghans dead, maimed, or uprooted. "

This is a bit disingenuous, espeically given the historical context above. Syria is not Iraq, and that speaks to my point about this being blown out or proportion (http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023593859#post3).

Obama is making his case to Congress.

Congress, be careful what you wish for

By Steve Benen

<...>

Over the last several days, members of Congress have spoken out with a variety of opinions about U.S. policy towards Syria, but lawmakers were in broad agreement about one thing: they wanted President Obama to engage Congress on the use of military force. Few expected the White House to take the requests too seriously...Because over the last several decades, presidents in both parties have increasingly consolidated authority over national security matters, tilting practically all power over the use of force towards the Oval Office and away from the legislative branch. Whereas the Constitution and the War Powers Act intended to serve as checks on presidential authority on military intervention abroad, there's been a gradual (ahem) drift away from these institutional norms...until this afternoon, when President Obama stunned everyone, announcing his decision to seek "authorization" from a co-equal branch of government.

It's one of those terrific examples of good politics and good policy. On the former, the American public clearly endorses the idea of Congress giving its approval before military strikes begin. On the latter, at the risk of putting too fine a point on this, Obama's move away from unilateralism reflects how our constitutional, democratic system of government is supposed to work.

Arguably the most amazing response to the news came from Rep. Peter King (R-N.Y.), the chair of the House Homeland Security Subcommittee on Counterintelligence & Terrorism, and a member of the House Intelligence Committee:

"President Obama is abdicating his responsibility as commander-in-chief and undermining the authority of future presidents. The President does not need Congress to authorize a strike on Syria."

This is one of those remarkable moments when a prominent member of Congress urges the White House to circumvent Congress, even after many of his colleagues spent the week making the exact opposite argument.

- more -

http://maddowblog.msnbc.com/_news/2013/08/31/20273174-congress-be-careful-what-you-wish-for


There were constant cries for Obama to go through Congress, and people were expecting a strike without Congress being involved.

ACLU Urges the President to Obtain Official Congressional Authorization Before Taking Military Action in Syria

WASHINGTON – In a letter sent to the White House today, the American Civil Liberties Union urged President Obama to refrain from initiating military action in Syria until Congressional votes have occurred in both chambers, authorizing such use of military force.

While the ACLU does not take a position on whether military force should be used, the organization has consistently insisted, from the war in Vietnam through both wars in Iraq, that Congress give advance authorization for the use of such force.

“Before any decisions are made regarding U.S. military action, the president, according to our Constitution, must obtain congressional authorization for use of any military force,” said ACLU Washington Legislative Office Director Laura W. Murphy. “Mere consultation between the White House and certain congressional leaders does not provide sufficient authority to the president to unilaterally use any military force. Floor debate should commence as soon as possible and certainly no later than the date on which Congress reconvenes.”

“Use of military force by the administration in Syria in the absence of congressional action would strike at the very heart of the fundamental principle of separation of powers that is at the core of the Constitution,” says the letter, signed by Murphy.

- more -

https://www.aclu.org/national-security/aclu-urges-president-obtain-official-congressional-authorization-taking-military

The President is doing exactly that.

Nye Bevan

(25,406 posts)
4. So, if nobody is willing to punish Assad for breaking international law,
Wed Sep 4, 2013, 11:18 AM
Sep 2013

who would be willing to punish President Obama for breaking international law by punishing Assad for breaking international law?

jakeXT

(10,575 posts)
5. I heard Marco Rubio using the argument that Assad is supporting Al Qaeda
Wed Sep 4, 2013, 11:21 AM
Sep 2013



Maybe they could reuse the old playbook

 

MindPilot

(12,693 posts)
8. When did the US become the world's mommy & daddy?
Wed Sep 4, 2013, 11:25 AM
Sep 2013

By what authority does the US government get to discipline other countries and punish them as if they are misbehaving children?

 

Coyotl

(15,262 posts)
9. An attack on Syria is a threat to US national security, and a crime even with Congressional approval
Wed Sep 4, 2013, 11:26 AM
Sep 2013

Just one example would be the rise in the price of oil when the situation gets out-of-hand, not to mention the retaliation that might ensue when someone's family is killed and they decide to counter by killing Americans.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
10. Why is it illegal?
Wed Sep 4, 2013, 11:29 AM
Sep 2013

It's up for debate among experts:


"A limited engagement such as the one tentatively proposed for Syria, involving no troops on the ground and relying on weapons fired from air and sea, does not appear to fulfill the vague criteria for 'hostilities' under the War Powers Resolution," says Christopher McKnight Nichols, a professor at Oregon State University and an expert on the U.S. military history. "Thus the proposed intervention in Syria does not appear to require a deadline for congressional approval or force withdrawal."

Others in the field, however, interpret the president's power under the War Powers Resolution to be much more limited in scope.


http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2013/08/30/the-war-powers-act-is-pretty-unclear-about-whether-congress-gets-a-vote-on-syria

Pretty good article there for people who want to consider it intellectually and not emotionally.

bigtree

(85,986 posts)
11. I reject the notion that 'emotion' shouldn't figure into our view. So does the WH
Wed Sep 4, 2013, 11:36 AM
Sep 2013

. . . as they take the pains they have to highlight the casualties of the chemical attack; presumably, to stir the emotions of Americans into ignoring the requirement that there be an actual threat to our nation before the president is authorized to press ahead of Congress (as the admin insists they can) and initiate military action.

. . . with all due respect to yours and Christopher McKnight Nichols' view.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
20. actual threat is an element
Wed Sep 4, 2013, 01:26 PM
Sep 2013

but would appear to apply only to certain situations.

I don't necessarily agree with Prof. Nichols' view, but reading about it shows that it's not so simple as we seem often to think. It may not be "war." In which case, it does not need to threaten use.

We'll see a lot of people sneering at that, but then, that's because they just don't want any more violence. Understandable. But then sometimes it may be necessary. Because Bush's wars were unnecessary doesn't mean every war is.

We just don't want to do anything. Yet we are bothered by the chemical attack. It's supposed to be beyond the pale even in war.


 

ocpagu

(1,954 posts)
15. Of course...
Wed Sep 4, 2013, 12:28 PM
Sep 2013

... which authority does he have to "punish" anyone, let alone someone who's not even a citizen of his country?

Somebody needs to tell Obama the world doesn't have an emperor.

Catherina

(35,568 posts)
17. And that he's not wearing a stitch of new clothing. Naked as a jaybird.
Wed Sep 4, 2013, 12:34 PM
Sep 2013

I'm watching the House hearing now. Kerry is telling them that he knows "beyond a reasonable doubt" that Assad did this so give the President a blank check now. Disgusting stuff.

Catherina

(35,568 posts)
18. France is whining that they can't go it alone against their former colony
Wed Sep 4, 2013, 12:40 PM
Sep 2013

and the US has a big interest in this new pipeline for oil to Europe that will compete with the Russian pipelines Europe has been using, especially the Druzhba (Frienship) pipeline. My mom told me the US has been trying to disrupt Europe's friendship and dependence on Russian oil for decades now.

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