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Sun Sep 15, 2013, 09:28 AM

 

Stopping abortions.

28 replies, 3245 views

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Arrow 28 replies Author Time Post
Reply Stopping abortions. (Original post)
Scuba Sep 2013 OP
hlthe2b Sep 2013 #1
FarPoint Sep 2013 #2
Triana Sep 2013 #10
CTyankee Sep 2013 #3
hobbit709 Sep 2013 #4
progressoid Sep 2013 #5
LuvNewcastle Sep 2013 #6
boston bean Sep 2013 #8
LuvNewcastle Sep 2013 #9
MH1 Sep 2013 #14
boston bean Sep 2013 #15
MH1 Sep 2013 #18
boston bean Sep 2013 #19
MH1 Sep 2013 #24
boston bean Sep 2013 #25
MH1 Sep 2013 #26
LostOne4Ever Sep 2013 #21
LittleBlue Sep 2013 #27
OnionPatch Sep 2013 #7
Squinch Sep 2013 #11
RC Sep 2013 #13
Name removed Sep 2013 #12
MH1 Sep 2013 #16
Name removed Sep 2013 #17
MH1 Sep 2013 #22
alphafemale Sep 2013 #20
kskiska Sep 2013 #23
jmowreader Sep 2013 #28

Response to Scuba (Original post)

Sun Sep 15, 2013, 09:33 AM

1. Certainly, if anti-choice groups wanted to stop abortions, rather than punish women for having sex--

(especially being POOR and having sex)....Given a significant majority wish the latter, IMO, slowing abortions means nothing.

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Response to hlthe2b (Reply #1)

Sun Sep 15, 2013, 09:35 AM

2. Ditto!

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Response to hlthe2b (Reply #1)

Sun Sep 15, 2013, 10:50 AM

10. True. That's why I always say that anti-abortion people don't want to actually stop abortions...

 

...they just want to OPPOSE them.

Big. Difference.

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Response to Scuba (Original post)

Sun Sep 15, 2013, 09:35 AM

3. Naw. we al know that birth control and accurate sex education makes people MORE

likely to engage in unprotected sex! It is better to promote lies and fantasy to young people (and some threats of being sent straight to hell). That always works...

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Response to Scuba (Original post)

Sun Sep 15, 2013, 09:35 AM

4. There you go, throwing logic into it.

You know these people don't want to be swayed by FACTS. And they certainly don't give a shit about any of the "precious" lives once they are born.

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Response to Scuba (Original post)

Sun Sep 15, 2013, 09:44 AM

5. But...



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Response to Scuba (Original post)

Sun Sep 15, 2013, 10:08 AM

6. It's better for the woman's health if she prevents the pregnancy

before the stage where she has to have an abortion, but I think there's a stigma about abortion that needs to be removed. Too many people, even pro-choice people, look at abortion as some sort of a taboo. That needs to end.

Most of the time these fetuses are removed at a stage when hardly anyone would call them human. One friend of mine told me that she saw the fetus that was removed when she had an abortion, and it was about the size of the last joint of her little finger. It was just a little blob, not anything near being a person. Except in cases where a fetus is removed in last several weeks of a pregnancy, it's similar to fetuses of other animals. A woman might as well be having a blood clot removed.

The guilt that some women have over getting an abortion is ridiculous, and it's totally because they've been taught by society and religion that it's immoral. Sex is bad, therefore you must take your punishment for having sex and carry that 'baby' to term. Having an abortion is like escaping God's wrath. It's breaking the rules. This is all a bunch of bullshit and it needs to end.

Friends of women who have abortions should be supportive and reassure them. Women who don't want to be pregnant shouldn't have to be, and they shouldn't feel a bit of guilt about having that fetus removed, no more than having a corn removed or anything else that can be problematic down the line. We have enough people already. In fact, we can't even take care of all the people we have. Americans need to think about their views about abortion; they need to think about why they have negative attitudes about it and where those attitudes come from. It's totally absurd.

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Response to LuvNewcastle (Reply #6)

Sun Sep 15, 2013, 10:14 AM

8. I cringe when I hear democrats say they want less abortions.

It's basically taking away of an option, if you think it through. Almost agreeing it's wrong to have one.

Dems ought to be sticking to more sex ed and access to birth control, and leaving the false negativity about abortion out of it. They are basically giving into a point being made by the other side that wants to limit all options.

This is why I'm not fond of graphics like the one posted in the OP. I understand it, and it seems positive but thought through to the end it is limiting choices.

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Response to boston bean (Reply #8)

Sun Sep 15, 2013, 10:33 AM

9. I feel the same way. No need to perpetuate the guilt trip.

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Response to boston bean (Reply #8)

Sun Sep 15, 2013, 11:30 AM

14. Well, I want there to be fewer heart bypass operations also.

I would much prefer that people managed to avoiding needing the heart bypass operation.

Replace "heart bypass operation" with "pregnancy termination" and that's how I feel about abortion.

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Response to MH1 (Reply #14)

Sun Sep 15, 2013, 11:31 AM

15. People aren't passing laws trying to outlaw heart bypass operations.

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Response to boston bean (Reply #15)

Sun Sep 15, 2013, 11:38 AM

18. I agree, but I don't know of many Dems trying to outlaw abortion, either.

An abortion is a medical operation that has risks and consequences for the patient. It is always better to avoid medical operations in the first place.

That said I do see your point and I don't disagree with you very much. I think graphics like in the o.p. are useful in demonstrating that the political issue really isn't about abortion at all, it is about controlling women. Pictures of aborted fetuses and crying about "murdering innocent babies" are just the emotional cudgel to keep women suppressed.

Until the Equal Rights Amendment to the Constitution is ratified, I will believe that it is about control and treating women as less than men. There is NO reason the ERA should not be ratified, except for that.

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Response to MH1 (Reply #18)

Sun Sep 15, 2013, 11:41 AM

19. A heart by pass operation is a good procedure

no one wants to limit. Ialso think having an abortion is a helpful medical procedure as well.

We probably don't disagree much, but giving one inch to those who want to take away this choice by using language negatively toward abortion is giving them the edge.

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Response to boston bean (Reply #19)

Sun Sep 15, 2013, 11:54 AM

24. Agreed, but if there is an action that reduces heart bypass operations by 71%

Wouldn't it be a good public policy choice to make that action as low-cost and accessible as possible?

But the wingers would jump all over that anyway. See: http://www.mediaite.com/tv/are-conservatives-really-going-after-michelle-obama-for-promoting-water/ (otherwise off-topic, but relevant here.)

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Response to MH1 (Reply #24)

Sun Sep 15, 2013, 11:56 AM

25. Not by using laws and placing restrictions on people.

The men would be very upset about that.

You can't unchain these two issues, imho.

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Response to boston bean (Reply #25)

Sun Sep 15, 2013, 12:09 PM

26. True, although

I personally have no problem with "sin taxes" that raise the price for unhealthy behavior. (I know that puts me at odds with a lot here, and you are absolutely correct that it is a widely controversial position.)

A brief defense of that position: If we are going to have a public health system - particularly single payer where the payer is the taxpayer (who else would it be?) - and I am ALL for that - then one way to keep costs down is to discourage the worst behaviors and encourage the best behaviors.

IMO, making birth control low-cost (preferably free), easily accessible, and encouraging its use, is the positive side of that same equation. If prostitution were legal at some level in this country, then taxing the transactions would be an example of the negative (discouragement) side of the equation.

I don't want to derail this thread on this side topic so I'm probably not going to continue the argument if anyone tries to rebut it. That's just how I see it.

I DO agree that we should not be increasing the negative connotation of the word "abortion" but I believe that ship has sailed. I prefer to use other terms when possible.

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Response to boston bean (Reply #8)

Sun Sep 15, 2013, 11:47 AM

21. I personally prefer the argument that its the woman's body, therefore it is solely her choice. (nt)

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Response to LuvNewcastle (Reply #6)

Sun Sep 15, 2013, 12:15 PM

27. Here's the difficulty in wiping away the guilt

 

Most know that if left alone, that collection of cells will probably become a baby. And I would guess that all people who have an abortion face a dilemma, with one side being the likely event of a birth and a lifetime of caring for that child. And that alternative must surely be the one that they dwell upon, since it is the dreaded consequence of the unintended pregnancy. That's why it is different to having a corn removed; a corn will always be a corn if left alone, unlike an embryo.

That collection of cells cannot be separated from the concept of what it most likely will become. I don't think we should try to manipulate feelings on this, rather we should say that a woman should be free to choose no matter her feelings. It is enough just making it available and not subjecting the patient to unnecessary procedures.

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Response to Scuba (Original post)

Sun Sep 15, 2013, 10:09 AM

7. But, but, but

then women would be able to have illicit sex with no repercussions!!!! The religious right won't like that at all!

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Response to OnionPatch (Reply #7)

Sun Sep 15, 2013, 11:25 AM

11. And we would be paying for their godless fornication out of our OWN POCKETS!

Really, though, I'm all for that.

Because godfull fornication is a) difficult to arrange and b) not as much fun as you think it would be. Gods are such prima donnas, and tend to be selfish.

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Response to OnionPatch (Reply #7)

Sun Sep 15, 2013, 11:27 AM

13. Us men mostly have that right already.

 

In the name of equality, women should have that same right. After all, it is women we are having the sex with.

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Response to Scuba (Original post)


Response to Name removed (Reply #12)

Sun Sep 15, 2013, 11:33 AM

16. PP helps with that, but I don't know that they provide it free to all comers.

In fact I'm pretty sure they don't.

And the rabid wrong wing is trying very hard to shut down every Planned Parenthood clinic they can, and any other source of low-cost, reliable birth control or other women's health services.

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Response to MH1 (Reply #16)


Response to MH1 (Reply #16)

Sun Sep 15, 2013, 11:51 AM

22. Aw, dang, I was busy writing up a reply to "lotus flower"

But it's probably for the best. Thank you, MIRT.

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Response to Scuba (Original post)

Sun Sep 15, 2013, 11:41 AM

20. but...see there ultimate goal is stopping sex.

No one should have unapproved sex.

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Response to Scuba (Original post)

Sun Sep 15, 2013, 11:51 AM

23. Before the 9th week

it's not technically a "fetus." It's still in the embryonic stage.

The use of the term "fetus" generally implies that a mammalian embryo has developed to the point of being recognizable as belonging to its own species, though the point at which this occurs is subjective. A fetus is also characterized by the presence of all the major body organs, though they may not yet be fully functional, or situated in their final anatomical location.

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Response to Scuba (Original post)

Sun Sep 15, 2013, 12:17 PM

28. It could but it might not

The people who spend their lives obsessing about abortion are people who would tear their children to pieces, publicly, if they happened to find birth control in their kids' rooms during the weekly dresser-drawer shakedown that gets conducted while the kids are at school. There are a lot of extremely dysfunctional families out there.

Now for the story of Lieutenant Laura...we were in her car once hauling a receiver from Maryland to New York, and the radio was talking about Pennsylvania's proposed parental notification law. She thought it a good idea...after all, if a kid can't go to the dentist without parental permission why should she be able to get an abortion without one?

"What would your mom have done if you would have walked in one day and announced you had a toothache?"
"Taken me to the dentist."
"And what would she have done if you announced you were pregnant?"
"Oh, she would have killed me...this is a bad idea, isn't it?"

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