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Mon Oct 14, 2013, 02:57 AM

 

Columbus didn't "Discover" anything. Seriously. The NA Continent was already discovered.

Please, I'm sick of the picture of Columbus as the noble explorer who "discovered" America. He was a profiteer. Well FFS. The North American continent was already populated with a thriving set of indigenous peoples who "discovered" it long before the great white man. It had long been discovered and populated. Columbus didn't discover shit. He was damned lucky he just happen to run into it on his way to Asia. Otherwise he and all his men would have disappeared into the ocean trying to get to Asia most likely.

Columbus, like all Europeans of the time, assumed he was superior to the natives of Haiti and the Dominican Republic and promptly began enslaving them. He opened up North America to the African slave trade. He and his sons were profiteers and slavers. No noble motives of proving the world was round. Just profit.

We need to stop telling the BS mythology that is so popular just because it's popular.

for more:
What Happened to the Indigenous Race?
The Rancid Myth of Columbus
http://www.counterpunch.org/2013/10/04/the-rancid-myth-of-columbus/

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Reply Columbus didn't "Discover" anything. Seriously. The NA Continent was already discovered. (Original post)
dballance Oct 2013 OP
Revanchist Oct 2013 #1
dballance Oct 2013 #2
Revanchist Oct 2013 #3
Scootaloo Oct 2013 #5
eShirl Oct 2013 #7
JustABozoOnThisBus Oct 2013 #4
Coyotl Oct 2013 #12
itsrobert Oct 2013 #29
Coyotl Oct 2013 #31
eShirl Oct 2013 #6
backscatter712 Oct 2013 #8
CBGLuthier Oct 2013 #9
Coyotl Oct 2013 #13
krispos42 Oct 2013 #10
dballance Oct 2013 #15
Richardo Oct 2013 #11
pampango Oct 2013 #14
Orrex Oct 2013 #17
pampango Oct 2013 #18
FarCenter Oct 2013 #16
Tikki Oct 2013 #19
dballance Oct 2013 #23
Tikki Oct 2013 #25
Zorra Oct 2013 #20
Taverner Oct 2013 #21
dballance Oct 2013 #24
Taverner Oct 2013 #27
cvoogt Oct 2013 #30
miyazaki Oct 2013 #22
dballance Oct 2013 #26
Tikki Oct 2013 #28

Response to dballance (Original post)

Mon Oct 14, 2013, 03:34 AM

1. One could argue the point

that Columbus "discovered" the existence of the American continents in the sense that the majority of the European countries were unaware of their existence and it hadn't been visited by the Norse cultures for around a hundred years so they might of forgotten about it also. Then again, an argument could be made that Columbus accidentally stumbled into the region while attempting to find an easier trade route to Asia and it was just dumb luck.

Edit:

I guess I relate it to the "discovery" of a new plant or animal species, just because a large part of the population didn't know about it before does not mean it did not exist prior to it being found and there were probably indigenous people who knew about it, but it's called a discovery because it is newly introduced to a large portion of the population. Because we (as in America and Europe) tend to base history around what is important to white Europeans I can understand why they claim that Columbus discovered America, even if it is not entirely the truth.

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Response to Revanchist (Reply #1)

Mon Oct 14, 2013, 03:49 AM

2. I Think It's Insulting to the Indigenous Peoples to say "Discovered" the way it's said now.

 

One could certainly argue that Columbus discovered the existence of the Caribbean and the N. American continent in the sense they were unknown to the Europeans. I'll grant that.

Unfortunately, the context with which "discovered" is used with Columbus is as if he discovered this vast area that had never been seen before - except there were natives. That it was this miraculous divine discovery. As usual, at the time, he decided Europeans were superior to the natives and set about enslaving them and wiping out their language, religion and culture. So it seems more like he discovered a vein of gold or other resource for the taking and took it. It was nothing more than a profit center for him. Not the vast "New World" that should have been respected and its peoples respected.

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Response to dballance (Reply #2)

Mon Oct 14, 2013, 04:07 AM

3. But you can't limit that philosophy to just the Americas

Europeans "discovered" a whole bunch of places, for example, India, Japan, and Australia, that were already well known by the people who lived there. I'm not defending Columbus, but he wasn't the first, nor was he the last to exploit the people and resources of the land that he "discovered".

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Response to Revanchist (Reply #3)

Mon Oct 14, 2013, 04:46 AM

5. It's an artifact of eurocentric history

 

Europe "discovers" things. And the people Europeans "discover" then graciously "give" the Europeans things like tomatoes or funny words, or what have you.

It's a narrative where the whole world was just idling by, hoping for a white guy they could pay tribute to.

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Response to Revanchist (Reply #1)

Mon Oct 14, 2013, 07:17 AM

7. Isn't it time we (US) dropped the Eurocentric mindset after all these centuries?

It seems a bit overdue to me.

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Response to dballance (Original post)

Mon Oct 14, 2013, 04:23 AM

4. Next you'll claim that Coronado didn't discover the Grand Canyon

Until he arrived, nobody knew about that big hole in the ground.



Edit to add: anyway, everyone knows America was discovered by St Brendan the Navigator, sailing from Ireland.

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Response to JustABozoOnThisBus (Reply #4)

Mon Oct 14, 2013, 08:05 AM

12. Coronado did not visit the Grand Canyon. He went to Zuni and turned east to the Rio Grande pueblos.

 

Bryce did find the Grand Canyon, and his impression was, "Hell of a place to lose a cow."

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Response to Coyotl (Reply #12)

Mon Oct 14, 2013, 01:33 PM

29. He took a left at Albuquerque

He should have turned right.

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Response to itsrobert (Reply #29)

Mon Oct 14, 2013, 03:50 PM

31. He went straight at Albuquerque,

 

having approached from the west. He took a right at Zuni. He went wrong long before that.

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Response to dballance (Original post)

Mon Oct 14, 2013, 07:14 AM

6. why is it even still a holiday? ffs

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Response to dballance (Original post)

Mon Oct 14, 2013, 07:18 AM

8. Columbus got taken back to Spain in chains...

...after the Spaniards said "I know we're conquering bastards, but what you did to the indigenous Haitians was FUCKED UP!"

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Response to dballance (Original post)

Mon Oct 14, 2013, 07:25 AM

9. he reported back to the dominant civilization on the planet the existence of another continent

Who gives a fuck about Columbus. We have today's problems to solve.

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Response to CBGLuthier (Reply #9)

Mon Oct 14, 2013, 08:07 AM

13. Spain was anything but the dominant civilization on the planet. Spain was totally uncivil.

 

Spain became the dominant military criminal organization on the planet and the number one genocidal force of human history, but not a civilization.

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Response to dballance (Original post)

Mon Oct 14, 2013, 07:58 AM

10. He discovered something unknown to a major center of civilization and learning

Of course, since he was self-taught in his education he thought Asia was thousands of miles closer to Europe than the educated Europeans. But he was wrong enough that he did find land exactly where he expected to find it, only it wasn't Asia he found, it was a previously-unknown-to-Europe continent.

The other educated people of his time were correct; Asia's eastern coast was thousands of miles west of where Columbus thought it was.


The person that discovers something and brings it to the attention of the world is the person that gets credit for "discovering" it.



Having said that, Columbus was a sociopathic, sadistic murderer. Hell, when the SPANISH of 1500 arrest somebody for unusual cruelty, you know something especially rancid is going on.

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Response to krispos42 (Reply #10)

Mon Oct 14, 2013, 12:18 PM

15. What Columbus "discovered" was ALREADY a major center of civilization and learning.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong here - and I well could be so do correct me. I don't ever recall learning that the Europeans "discovered" Asia. Only that we more or less met another set of civilizations with whom we established trade. I believe the Asian peoples buildings and formal society that resembled European and Mediterranean societies, was not considered to be primitive as we considered the indigenous peoples of the Americas to be.

On Edit:

I think we would understand it to be offensive if we said some European "discovered" Asia with its already established societies and cultures and that's why I don't think we say that or are taught that. So it's similarly offensive to say the indigenous peoples with their already established languages, cultures and religions were "discovered." Just my 2 cents.

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Response to dballance (Original post)

Mon Oct 14, 2013, 08:01 AM

11. Wha....?! Really?!?!

Geez I don't think I've ever heard that before. Oh yeah I did - when I got out of elementary school in 1968.

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Response to dballance (Original post)

Mon Oct 14, 2013, 11:59 AM

14. Exactly. Asians "discovered" North America thousands of years before Columbus and

made it their home.

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Response to pampango (Reply #14)

Mon Oct 14, 2013, 12:29 PM

17. So immigants have been intruding into European land for millennia? Figures!

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Response to Orrex (Reply #17)

Mon Oct 14, 2013, 12:46 PM

18. Damn immigrants. They've been intruding on "our" land since before "we" even discovered it.

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Response to dballance (Original post)

Mon Oct 14, 2013, 12:24 PM

16. No job is done until the paperwork is complete.

 

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Response to dballance (Original post)

Mon Oct 14, 2013, 12:58 PM

19. Believe me, as a Daughter of the LAKOTA the lies never get past my Elementary School grandchildren..

nor never by our sons.

The truth is there and a well thought out presentation can teach the young ones how to listen to some
of the teachers' stories and hear the truth at home and still be able to get through this date every year.



Tikki

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Response to Tikki (Reply #19)

Mon Oct 14, 2013, 01:13 PM

23. One good thing is we can actually have this discussion now.

 

I can't imagine trying to have this discussion even 10 years ago. People would be really pissed at us besmirching the "good name" of Columbus and this sort of discussion could probably only have taken place in academia.

This is one of the positives of the internet.

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Response to dballance (Reply #23)

Mon Oct 14, 2013, 01:22 PM

25. Maybe it's because we live in a Liberal Blue Coast State, but none of our sons' teachers..

in the 70's and 80's had any problem with the boys giving reports, at least once in Elementary School and another time
in High School, about their mother's people.

They always mentioned that their earliest ancestors were on this Continent before their
European ancestors came here.

I bet you are correct though, that there are places that still want the History to go a certain way.


The Tikkis

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Response to dballance (Original post)

Mon Oct 14, 2013, 01:07 PM

20. Yeh, time to stop perpetuating this lie, and stop celebrating the start of the systematic genocide

of the indigenous peoples of the Americas by sociopathic imperialist liars, thieves, rapists, torturers, and murderers.

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Response to dballance (Original post)

Mon Oct 14, 2013, 01:10 PM

21. My prediction is that we will find evidence of waves of immigrants to the Americas

 

We already know of Vikings, Pre-Columbian Iberians, Chinese, Japanese and Mongolian migrants

I would be VERY surprised if there were no Polynesian migrants. We KNOW they got as far as Easter Island.

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Response to Taverner (Reply #21)

Mon Oct 14, 2013, 01:22 PM

24. Yep, you're likely correct.

 

I watched a documentary the other day on how there are some theories emerging that at the end of the last ice age as the seas rose to overtake the sea-side civilizations that some from the Mediterranean migrated to the Americas and this is another good theory to explain some of the architecture found in Mexico and Central/S. America that is very similar to ancient building techniques on the Med side of the Atlantic. With the find of the Antikythera mechanism we've had to re-evaluate our thoughts about the ability of ancient peoples knowledge of the stars and navigation of the oceans.

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Response to dballance (Reply #24)

Mon Oct 14, 2013, 01:24 PM

27. And the polynesians REALLY had perfected sea travel

 

In many ways outdoing their European Counterparts

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Response to dballance (Reply #24)

Mon Oct 14, 2013, 01:47 PM

30. Don't forget the anachronites

Time-travelers from Belgium

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Response to dballance (Original post)

Mon Oct 14, 2013, 01:12 PM

22. He was just a worthless rat then. Ya, ok. n/t

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Response to miyazaki (Reply #22)

Mon Oct 14, 2013, 01:22 PM

26. Well, yep. A self-centered, profiteer with no empathy for other humans. So Yes.

 

Perhaps as a primer you might want to read this: http://www.counterpunch.org/2013/10/04/the-rancid-myth-of-columbus/

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Response to miyazaki (Reply #22)

Mon Oct 14, 2013, 01:24 PM

28. History gave him more than his due, that's all...



Tikki

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