Have the champions of the NSA/Obama, and the detractors of Snowden apologized yet?

[20score]

They damn well should. (Been busy with family/job demands, so I’m out of touch. Please excuse me if this is common knowledge.)

This refers to those in the media, politicians and those on DU who have embarrassed themselves, and the party. (I expected the Republicans to act like authoritarians and reactionaries.)

Last time I looked, the most common charge against those who stood for principle over party was, Paulbot! Or something similar. By using their own logic - that those who stood against ubiquitous spying were in line with everything Rand Paul stood for – they must be Cheneybots.

Have embraced torture, etc? Or have they embraced what’s right?

Just want to be enlightened.

[FirstLight]

1. no

but at last you haven't been holding your breath

I myself happen to think Snowden did us a great service, and there are other cases and issues that dovetail into this subject matter that we need to pay attention to...the federal Shield Law coming up for Senate debate is HUGE

[Blue_Tires]

2. I didn't know we were allowed to keep score over these sorts of things

Last edited Wed Nov 13, 2013, 12:25 PM - Edit history (1)

Going back to 2003 I'd say I'm due about 11,925 apologies from DU...Who do I send the invoice to so I can collect?

EDIT: I'm totally serious, too -- I've got a 10-year backlog of celebrating I need to catch up on...

[DesMoinesDem]

3. They're just doing their jobs. Plus, powerpoint documents aren't proof of anything.

And Snowden doesn't even know what the internet is. It's true, I heard it right here on DU!

[uponit7771]

4. Fuck naw, Snowden still a traitor to his country and Glen is still an asshole to humans...

... and not one of their supporters will

1. say they had no choice but to break the law or the reason why they had no choice
2. extend the same benefit of the doubt to other Americans

and hell yes, there could've been substantive change without steeling from America then kissin Putins azz

fuck Snowden

regards

[AverageJoe90]

16. Damn fuckin' straight.

Snowden not only stole info that could put innocent U.S. personnel at risk, he gave this stuff to Russia & China on top of that....our two biggest rivals.

[HangOnKids]

23. I think the 1950's needs their clue phone back

Care to post some facts that back up that claim Joe?

[QC]

27. A little music while you wait....

[rug]

57. We need a bigger playlist.

[1000words]

5. Pfffft .. being an apologist means never having to say your sorry.

In homage:

[Blue_Tires]

8. Arguing on the internet PERIOD means never having to say you're sorry...

Just bide your time and wait for the other guy to be wrong about something, and then push his face in the shit relentlessly...

[1000words]

9. Helps if you have a like-minded posse to assist your belittling efforts

Apparently, that's called an online "debate."

[NuclearDem]

44. We've really got to change that smiley.

:nsa:

:igotnothing:

:fallacy:

:lashout:

:prosense:

[Skittles]

6. I wouldn't know; I put those idiots on IGNORE

[L0oniX]

32. +1

[rhett o rick]

7. The Gen Clapper apologists are keeping their heads down.

They were adamant that Snowden was lying and that the NSA wasnt spying on anyone except maybe bad guys. Well that ship has sailed. They are still pissed at the whistle-blower that shattered their comfortable denial bubbles.

[suede1]

10. It sucks that people like that never have to pay a price for being so wrong!

About such important things!

Pisses me off to no end!

[1000words]

12. Isn't being like that a punishment in itself?

[jtuck004]

13. For that type their goal is to get someone else to pay the price.

It doesn't really matter what the big letter on their voter ID card says, they are all the same.

[Fuddnik]

11. Nah, they're busy trying to slander Alan Grayson.

[truedelphi]

21. that is exactly it. n/t

[pnwmom]

14. When will Snowden apologize for unnecessarily leaking

information about our international spying? He can't claim any patriotic motive for that.

[Fumesucker]

15. They aren't our international countries

Whatever that particular bit of word salad might happen to mean.

[pnwmom]

17. Yeah, I'm tired, obviously. I meant international spying

which the NSA is charged with doing, as opposed to spying on our own citizens, which it is not.

[sabrina 1]

19. We have international countries?

We have broken so many International laws, something Democrats USED to acknowledge that we are lucky if we have any International friends left.

Anyone who cares about this country wanted War Criminals and Wall St criminals investigated and prosecuted. That USED to be a big issue for Democrats. When did it stop being important to hold elected officials accountable for CRIMES. Torture, lies that got thousands of US Troops killed and untold numbers dead from suicide, more maimed for life and that isn't even touching the hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqis, Afghans and everywhere else where we appear to think we OWN those countries.

Well some people may have decided to move forward from all the atrocities committed in our name, but some of us never will, never will forget the dead children, the tortured innocents.

So Manning and Snowden and a handful of other courageous whistle blowers tried to do what Congress SHOULD have done, expose the corruption, the destruction of this country by criminals, and yes they ARE criminals, and it is THEY who end up in jail.

Not this hasn't happened before in history. And when it happens somewhere else we jump to the defense of THEIR Whistle Blowers.

I've never seen anything like the hypocrisy I've witnessed over the past number of years.

[20score]

20. Well said!

[pnwmom]

24. No, we don't. That was a mistake of mine. But Snowden did nothing to help the US

when he leaked about our spying on China when we were negotiating with China; and about Russia when we were negotiating with Russia.

He's continuing to focus on our international spying rather than internal spying -- why?

We don't owe him any thanks for that.

[Warren Stupidity]

68. Wait, you forgot "the Vatican, when we had no fucking reason whatsoever", and

our good friends the Germans it seems, simply to take advantage of them, and our friends the French, the Italians, the....

Oh and there is the negligible matter of the NSA feeding data to domestic law enforcement doing a complete end run around the stupid 4th amendment, but I know, think of the children, right?

What the fuck ever. Y'all are shameless.

[truedelphi]

22. And many of our illustrious leaders, like

Senator Di Feinstein, claim these patriotic motives for being all about spying all the time on everyone.

When what it really comes down to is "follow the money." (Hint: Feinstein has never disliked any war or surveillance activity, as MIC-Surveillance monies have a not-so-mysterious manner of ending up in her spouse's Deep Pockets.)

[uponit7771]

25. Notice the deflections using an obvious typo... SnowGlen had other means that were more progressive

[moondust]

18. To paraphrase Sean Penn,

when you steal classified materials you become a default curator of those materials. You now bear the same responsibility as the government for not mishandling them in such a way as to set the world on fire.

I can see his point.

[Pholus]

26. Naw. The news cycle changed, and "we all know it now so just deal" is the meme.

So it isn't a story anymore. Except that it just keeps drip, drip, dripping. I look back on June last year and realize that even my worst case at the time did not grasping the full extent of how the securocrats have really destroyed the concept of free expression. That grade-school threat came to pass - we now all have permanent records.

Remember how this all extralegal stuff was essential because it was keeping us safe from "terra?" Yeah, then it came out that the DEA was getting access and then phonying up the investigation to "protect classified sources." I naively thought that people would be outraged when the "rule of law" was basically being destroyed to increase the prosecution rate. Wrong. Just last month I ended up exchanging with a poster who was simply overjoyed to think that law enforcement might be tapping his neighbors about domestic law enforcement issues. Because he didn't want to have to actually, you know, interact with them enough to get to know them -- why not outsource that to some corporate mercenary in a Virginia suburb, right?

Bruce Schneier (https://www.schneier.com/) posted a link to a talk by Dan Geer this week on the "Government Surveillance Mentality." It's a good read and I highly recommend it: http://geer.tinho.net/geer.uncc.9x13.txt

So many good bits that it's hard to just pick the three best (the bolding is my addition):

We have known for some time that traffic analysis is more powerful
than content analysis. If I know everything about to whom you
communicate including when, where, with what inter-message latency
and at what length, then I know you. If all I have is the undated,
unaddressed text of your messages, then I am an archaeologist, not
a case officer. The soothing mendacity of proxies for the President
saying "It's only metadata" relies on the ignorance of the listener.

We all know the truism, that knowledge is power. We all know that
there is a subtle yet important distinction between information and
knowledge. We all know that a negative declaration like "X did not
happen" can only proven true if you have the enumeration of
*everything* that did happen and can show that X is not in it. We
all know that when a President says "Never again" he is asking for
the kind of outcome for which proving a negative, lots of negatives,
is categorically essential. Proving a negative requires omniscience.
Omniscience requires god-like powers.

Standoff biometry by itself terminates the argument over whether
security and privacy are a zero sum game -- the sum is nowhere near
that good, and it is the surveilled who are capitalizing the system.
As with my game, entirely innocuous things become problematic when
surveilled. Shoshana Zuboff, Harvard Business School Emerita,
called this "anticipatory conformity" and said:

[W]e anticipate surveillance and we conform, and we do that with
awareness. We know, for example, when we're going through the
security line at the airport not to make jokes about terrorists
or we'll get nailed, and nobody wants to get nailed for cracking
a joke. It's within our awareness to self-censor. And that
self-censorship represents a diminution of our freedom. We
self-censor not only to follow the rules, but also to avoid the
shame of being publicly singled out. Once anticipatory conformity
becomes second nature, it becomes progressively easier for people
to adapt to new impositions on their privacy, their freedoms.
The habit has been set.[/div]

[20score]

28. Thank you!

[randome]

29. There are few -if any- 'champions' of the NSA on this board.

But there are many who can calmly parse the information and not resort to hyperbole to make a point.

Snowden 'revealed' (and this was already well known) that the NSA obtains copies of phone metadata. The courts have long held that this is not a violation of law.

Snowden also 'revealed' that the NSA monitors foreign communications, perhaps more efficiently than anyone knew. But this, too, is legal.

So what should we be up in arms about?
[hr][font color="blue"][center]TECT in the name of the Representative approves of this post.[/center][/font][hr]

[Wilms]

31. I thought you were an authoritarian apologist. I was wrong.

In fact, you...just...don't...get...it.

That's a different problem.

[randome]

33. Enlighten me, then, since I'm such a dullard.

What are we to be up in arms about? Curtailing the NSA's powers? No problems here. But why vilify an organization for doing its job and adhering to what's legally permissible? Why elevate Snowden to heroic status for telling us the NSA is doing its job?

The only question remaining, from my point of view, is what changes need to be made at the NSA?
[hr][font color="blue"][center]TECT in the name of the Representative approves of this post.[/center][/font][hr]

[Wilms]

36. We've been round and round it.

See ya.

[riderinthestorm]

43. Kerry, Gore and too many to mention have all acknowledged the NSA has exceeded its legal authority

But since you've gotten those links over and over yet persist in trotting out your assigned, and thoroughly debunked, talking point, nobody believes or listens to you at all anymore.

Me? I find it hilarious how reliably you all show up on every thread, each of you with your old assigned position. Its amusing now. Like putting a donut in a raccoon trap - it never fails as bait.

[treestar]

48. But it hasn't

Kerry or Gore statements are not citable law. The court holdings are the law. And the law was unlimited spying before.

[Sheepshank]

49. Policy opinion is not rule of law.

Thank god!!

[randome]

53. It's an interesting dilemma.

And your categorizing people works both ways. You show up on every thread, too.

Tell me what the NSA is doing that is illegal. If it's so easy to do and I've heard it so many times before -as some claim- it should not be difficult to copy/paste your reasoning in this thread.

You keep focussing on what divides us. We are essentially in agreement that the NSA could use some changes. Why not focus on that instead?
[hr][font color="blue"][center]TECT in the name of the Representative approves of this post.[/center][/font][hr]

[muriel_volestrangler]

55. NSA broke privacy rules thousands of times per year, audit finds

The National Security Agency has broken privacy rules or overstepped its legal authority thousands of times each year since Congress granted the agency broad new powers in 2008, according to an internal audit and other top-secret documents.

Most of the infractions involve unauthorized surveillance of Americans or foreign intelligence targets in the United States, both of which are restricted by statute and executive order. They range from significant violations of law to typographical errors that resulted in unintended interception of U.S. e-mails and telephone calls.

The documents, provided earlier this summer to The Washington Post by former NSA contractor Edward Snowden, include a level of detail and analysis that is not routinely shared with Congress or the special court that oversees surveillance. In one of the documents, agency personnel are instructed to remove details and substitute more generic language in reports to the Justice Department and the Office of the Director of National Intelligence.

In one instance, the NSA decided that it need not report the unintended surveillance of Americans. A notable example in 2008 was the interception of a “large number” of calls placed from Washington when a programming error confused the U.S. area code 202 for 20, the international dialing code for Egypt, according to a “quality assurance” review that was not distributed to the NSA’s oversight staff.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/nsa-broke-privacy-rules-thousands-of-times-per-year-audit-finds/2013/08/15/3310e554-05ca-11e3-a07f-49ddc7417125_story.html?hpid=z1

Illegal, and a cover-up.

[randome]

60. Mistakes occur in every law enforcement agency. This was an internal audit, too.

I doubt any court would find mistakes to be illegal, especially when it was the NSA that brought it to the court's attention in the first place.

If they haven't put into place protections to avoid this in the future, then I'd say they are negligent and should have to pay a price. And we don't really know what types of protections they have in place. Partly that's because of the clandestine nature of the agency. I'm not sure how you can continue to be secretive and transparent at the same time. It's always a balancing act.

For other, more egregious violations, also identified by the NSA's internal audit, one would hope those individuals have been fired or punished in some manner. But again, these kind of things happen in every law enforcement agency. What matters is how the NSA deals with it when it occurs.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]TECT in the name of the Representative approves of this post.[/center][/font][hr]

[Jamaal510]

64. I'm still wondering how

people suddenly just found out about this a few months ago, when the NSA has been around for several decades now. It didn't just start under Obama. And why are people NOW losing their minds over this when other countries have also had this type of surveillance? Why single the U.S. out over our surveillance?

[UTUSN]

30. I wasn't one of the former, & proudly *am* of the latter, & nothing to apologize for!1

Two separate issues.

[UTUSN]

69. Nope, nup, not me. But I *would* luerve a trip to Rio!1 n/t

[jeff47]

34. Have the "enemies of the NSA/Obama" actually documented illegal spying yet?

There's a whole bunch of programs that have been leaked. If you look at the details, only one does not have a filter to remove US Persons (more on that in paragraph 3). So yes, the NSA is collecting a crapload of intelligence.....on people who aren't US persons and thus don't have 4th amendment rights.

Those who are so sure the NSA is doing evil spend a lot of time talking about these programs, yet they gloss over the targeting part - allowing the readers to get enraged about being spied upon, when they don't actually have any evidence of US persons being spied upon.

There's one program where they're collecting data on US persons - the phone metadata program. No, it's not bugging conversations, it's collecting number called and how long. The SCOTUS ruled this information was not protected by the 4th amendment in 1979 - they ruled the information was the phone company's, not the individuals. So the individual had no right to privacy regarding that data - it wasn't their data. Btw, the phone companies have used this decision to sell the same information to other people for years.

So, have those behind Snowden actually managed to leak an illegal program yet? Or are they going to keep asserting every program targeted US persons despite what the leaks actually say?

[Blue_Tires]

35. In all seriousness, I really do want to collect some goddamned apologies

The FIRST major one is probably Barry Bonds and steroid use...I was almost certainly the earliest DUer to call him out on it, and took heaps of shit for it...

[Blue_Tires]

40. The SECOND apology I want is from those cowards in '06

who didn't have the stones to back Ned Lamont (the true Democratic candidate) and merrily, UNAPOLOGETICALLY gave us SIX more years of Joe Fuckin' Lieberman...

[Blue_Tires]

42. The THIRD apology I want

Is from all the DUers who mercilessly mocked Howard Dean (and Wesley Clark to a lesser extent) and his supporters pretty much every election cycle from 2003 to 2010...

[Blue_Tires]

45. The FOURTH apology I want

Last edited Wed Nov 13, 2013, 06:25 PM - Edit history (2)

Any DUers who have EVER carried water for the following:

Ron/Rand Paul

Michelle Rhee

Michael Bloomberg

Rahm Emmanuel

The Libertarian Party

Harold Ford

Alex Jones (yeah, the old 9-11 forum on DU2 just used to lurrrve him)

Israeli foreign policy

John Fuckin' Edwards

Alan Colmes

The National Rifle Association and their politician "ratings"... Extra credit for those who actually *cheered* Dems losing in the Colorado recall...

Jane Hamsher after she got in bed with Norquist

GEORGE FUCKING ZIMMERMAN (seriously, you people know who you are and you apologists for racial profiling can collectively kiss my motherfuckin' ASS)

The Tea Party

The Minutemen

The Supreme Court decision on Citizens United

ANY clearly republican-branded law that masquerades itself as "reform", i.e., voter ID laws, drug testing welfare recipients, right-to-work laws, etc...

The Wall Street bailout -- I remember one notable DUer saying nonstop at the time that he/she wouldn't be able to pay the employees at their business without it...

(will add more to the list as needed)

[Blue_Tires]

50. The FIFTH apology I want

Now that the "documentary expose" (L-O-freakin'-L) has aired, I want an apology from all you amateur air crash investigation experts who continue to claim TWA flight 800 was destroyed by anything other than the stated cause...I told you all from the start that the producer was a CT nutbar (I even posted links to his site for all to see, but to no avail)...

Perhaps now finally you can let TWA 800 rest in piece, and focus your truther investigations on these incidents which were MUCH more likely to be shootdowns:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aer_Lingus_Flight_712
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ustica_Massacre
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dag_Hammarskj%C3%B6ld
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_Mozambican_Tupolev_Tu-134_crash
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan_Am_Flight_708

[1000words]

52. An early Festivus airing of grievances?

"I got a lot of problems with you people!"

====================================

Seriously, don't let the bastards get you down, Tire.

[Blue_Tires]

59. The SIXTH apology I want

Is for Greenwald pimping the Promise Keepers on Twitter...It is indefensible for journalists to openly endorse mainstream political organizations, much less fringe extremist ones...(and no, someone as savvy as Greenwald can't play dumb and pretend he didn't know who they really were)...

[Blue_Tires]

61. The SEVENTH apology I want

Is for all those gutless "keep your powder dry" Dems and DUers from 06-08...Why are you all so afraid of giving back to republicans just 5% of the abuse and rat bastardy they give to us?

[NCTraveler]

37. Apologized to whome? nt.

[SidDithers]

38. Snowden is a modern day Paul Revere with a thumb drive full of news that Tyranny is coming!...nt

Sid

[treestar]

47. I can still see that huge graphic!

US govt owes us 3 trillion!

[bravenak]

51. Glad that clown is gone.

I thought it was a joke for a few days.

[Number23]

70. It was. He was just the only one here that didn't know it.

[Major Hogwash]

71. Sid, one thing is for sure . . . Snowden now has something in common with Sister Sarah Palin . . .

. . . he can see Russia from his house . . . because he lives there!!!

[woo me with science]

39. All states that turn authoritarian grow propaganda machines.

The record speaks for itself, and the brazen, incessant drumbeat of propaganda denying reality only drives home how deeply sick and authoritarian things really have become around us.

The creepiness of the messaging is as disturbing as the spying itself and, I think, is waking people to how sick and dangerous our situation in this country has truly become.

War is Peace.
Freedom is Slavery.
Ignorance is Strength.
2 + 2 = 5
Chained CPI is Superlative.
Drone murders are Legal, Ethical, and Wise.
Health Care is Affordable.
Edward Snowden is the Traitor.
G.H.W. Bush made the world a Kinder and Gentler Place.
Spying on the Public is in the Public Interest.
There is no spying on Americans.
We will rein in spying by legalizing it....Feinstein

All systems that turn authoritarian find those who are willing to sell their morality and human decency in order to shill for policies that exploit, imprison, impoverish, or murder human beings by the millions for the profit and power of a few.

Some may eventually find their conscience and regret their complicity. In general, though, I suspect that this line of work attracts those who rarely struggle with such internal voices in the first place.

[pinboy3niner]

41. To even get to where you need to go to make an apology...

...you have to have the right flight plan.

[treestar]

46. You've said no more than that people should apologize for disagreeing with you

on the value of Eddie's actions.

And trying to get attention for him again. He's not in the news.

It is not principles over party , it is the rule of law over somebody just doing whatever the hell they want and damn the consequences, and about our right to defend ourselves in the world. It is about not dismissing the terrorist threat and also there is an issue about technology and what the NSA can now do that it couldn't previously.

[20score]

56. Nope didn't even imply that.

Read it again. Also, the Fourth Amendment while you're at it.

I did imply i despise those who would throw away our privacy, and have the gall to act self righteous while they do it. And i hope that came through.

[Douglas Carpenter]

54. knr

[Scurrilous]

58. I'll never apologize for championing President Obama. n/t

[Jamaal510]

62. If anyone should apologize, it should be people who act like the NSA is something new,

and people acting as if the U.S. is the only country that spies. And as stated earlier, by him stealing the info, he could've put people's lives in jeopardy. Is that not more important than worrying about whether Obama or someone else can see your porn or not? Snowden should definitely be thrown in the slammer for that.

[20score]

63. Seems like nothing, or little has changed. I have never understood the authoritarian mind.

And I can not help but to despise those who possess them.

[Blue_Tires]

65. I know that feel

I haven't gotten any of MY apologies, either...

Maybe I need to keep this thread kicked a few more days...

[20score]

66. Have to agree with your list too.

But I had no idea there were people on this board carrying water for Citizens United. WTF?

[TheKentuckian]

67. There may be one or two with honor but most like their dumber cousins further right will double down