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[grahamhgreen]

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[NoOneMan]

1. If starers don't want to be creepy, they should of been born more attractive

[geek tragedy]

6. Good looking guys are creepy when they do it as well.

We're talking about staring at boobs, not dreamy gazes into each other's eyes.

[NoOneMan]

9. Oh those things? I only notice when they are propped up and out in the open

We're not supposed to see those? Its probably just more comfortable having them busting out. Silly me.

[geek tragedy]

10. Are you pretending that you can't tell the difference between seeing and staring?

Or are the two concepts too complex and nuanced for your to grasp?

[NoOneMan]

19. Are you pretending the difference isn't partly perceptual and arbitrary?

Some women will differ vastly on what a stare and a glance is (how is the observer supposed to know what the tolerance limit per woman is?). Even the same woman will perceive a stare as a permissible glance not based entirely on length or intensity, but also the attractiveness of the observer (which can make the act of observation more consensual). That is human nature. And then when you throw in different cultures, etc, you get a whole mixed confused bag to deal with.

[geek tragedy]

21. 5 year olds can figure it out, so grown men should be able to process it.

If they can't, there's either something wrong with their socialization or they're playing dumb in order to excuse their own behavior.

[NoOneMan]

29. No they can't

But thanks for playing

[Diego_Native 2012]

96. Nice Man-Shaming

attack. If you can't have a dialogue on the merits...ad hominem!

[geek tragedy]

98. Lol wut?

I am a man.

[Harmony Blue]

187. Well then I am 5 years old then

is that drool on my desk? Time for my millk and afternoon nap.

[Squinch]

66. Yeah! Those damn women should leave those things at home! Otherwise what choice do you have

but to ogle them in a creepy way!

[NoOneMan]

77. What choice do any of us have?

A lot of this is subconscious and natural behavior. Women ogle at other women's breast too just as much as men do. The perception of women's leering and attractive men's dreaming gazes as being permissible or welcome in contrasts to ugly, unwelcomed men, is derived quite subconsciously in its own right as well

[Squinch]

93. You have obviously never been on a subway in the summer.

[NoOneMan]

101. Is there lots of women on women boob ogling?

Oh, the humanity

[seabeyond]

20. and you know what? most of the good looking older (out of teens) men do not do it. you know why?

cause they do not need to. that tells you all you need to know about the controlling factor with the men that do it. men who are confident and casual with women interact.

[NoOneMan]

25. Of course, because their hunky lerring is perceived as dreamy gazing

men who are confident and casual with women interact.

This observation is based upon the prior perception you have that they are in fact confident and casual, which then influences any further perception of their activity towards you in a more positive manner.

And remember, good looking men learn at some point how to interact because their primitive staring is positively reciprocated. If a woman always perceives and ugly man as leering, he will never get past the initial attraction stage to start a conversation. A lot of this comes down to basic human/animal interaction.

There are men who women do not deem have the right to be attracted to them and use a visual queue to demonstrate that level of attraction.

[ismnotwasm]

32. So?

And men do what? See the universal beauty in every woman?

[NoOneMan]

36. "See the universal beauty in every woman"

There is universal beauty in every woman? That Aileen Wuornos seems ugly to the bone

[seabeyond]

33. wrong. it is decades of having the attention directed toward me and seeing the difference in the two

and men being pissed cause they will not get the time of day from certain women. and having to have a control and ownership over her anyway he can. so he does it in this manner.

a man that does not have this anger toward the women he can or cannot get does not feel the need to behave this way.

and after decades of this behavior, and clearly seeing it at work, that would be another consideration how men are preceived by these women

just a helpful hint... what it is saying about these men.

[NoOneMan]

49. Your response is based on an unprovable perception of reality

and men being pissed cause...and having to have a control and ownership over her anyway he can...a man that does not have this anger toward the women he can or cannot get does not feel the need to behave this way.

You don't know why men are angry, if they are at all. Your entire perception of how men act and behave seems to be all generalizations based on anecdotal experience as you decode and make sense of things around you. It akin to "no means yes" bullshit that a few idiot men spout (not equivalent as that causes harm, but similar in the way they bend obvious perception to make a reality more friendly to them).

Some people just seem to want to believe the world is one way and all the perceptions morph reality to reinforce their initial worldview. Its truthy

[seabeyond]

54. you men are the ones popping up declaring... you only want the good looking men looking. i am not

spouting that crap. you brought it up. and i amgiving you the feedback you do not like.

[NoOneMan]

65. "you men"

Come on now. We're all on the same team here.

you only want

I am not directly telling any specific woman what she wants. I am talking about human behavior. A human interaction with a more attractive person will be perceived more positively than one with a less attractive person. A positive interaction can be considered a welcomed or permissible interaction. That's just the way it is for men or women.

[seabeyond]

82. the "you men" out of the handful i am seeing now raising this point. saying "you" men to separate

from ALL the men who are not saying only the ugly are not allowed to gawk.

i get in trouble for saying men.... cause that means all men. i categorize it to only the men saying the ugly men cant gawk and i get in trouble for that.

[NoOneMan]

86. "i get in trouble for saying men.... cause that means all men"

Please do not be concerned with "getting in trouble" with men or the male faction. This type of language only reinforces the hold of the patriarchy and their perception of authority over women. We all need to be stronger than this and better examples

[seabeyond]

103. then quit getting all bent out of shape when i say men. it does not mean ALL men. and when i say

"you" men when talking about something specific and a handful of posters. This type of language only reinforces the hold of the patriarchy and their perception of authority over women. We all need to be stronger than this and better examples

[NoOneMan]

111. "when talking about something specific and a handful of posters"

Good point. So for future reference, whenever you make any mention of "men", I will assume you mean 1 per 100,000 unless otherwise indicated (subsequently, I will also disregard the importance of all such statements that only regard a fraction of humans and their behavior)

[seabeyond]

121. you would be wrong. what i am not gonna do is work on quantifying the number i feel. if it is a lot

of men, or men as a whole... not ALL, i will state men.

if it is a handful on du that i am specifically talking about that are now discussing only ugly men are not allowed to oggle, and i am speaking to one of the men that stated this, i will say you men. targeting and directly speaking to you.

if it is a small number, or a handful, i will use those terms.

that simple.

what i will not do is be directed by you and others what i am allowed to post.

[NoOneMan]

128. "what i will not do is be directed by you and others what i am allowed to post"

DITTO!

[tblue37]

194. I think there are situations where the line is fuzzy--and some where it is not.

For example, in the Indian ad it was obviously aggressive, obnoxious leering when more than one man was ogling a woman and one was nudging his buddies to join him in reducing her to nothing but a body part to be stared at.

When the man was ogling the woman's lower back tattoo, his looking did not impinge on her freedom to enjoy herself freely in public space, so I think his natural inclination to admire what he saw should not be perceived as a creepy act of domination and control. Furthermore, women also look at attractive men when they are not aware of being checked out. No harm, no foul. On the other hand, if he had been nudging his buddies to check her out, the way the guys staring at the woman's cleavage were doing, then his behavior would be an act of group solidarity intended to "other" the woman and to reinforce the group's belief in their right to dominate her and reduce her to object status.

The one where the guy was munching on something while smiling at the woman on public transportation is fuzzy, I think. He wasn't being aggressive about it. He just seemed to be tentatively trying to flirt. In a situation like that it only becomes creepy if he persists after the woman responds coldly, indicating by facial expression (or a stiff lack of expression) or by body language that she does not welcome any advance. Then if he keeps staring or keeps trying to flirt, that would be creepy. But the initial eye contact and tentative smile is not in itself creepy.

[grahamhgreen]

214. Well said.

[hughee99]

225. If men didn't want to be creepy, they should have been born women.

Some women will certainly find even an attractive man creepy if they catch them looking at someone, perhaps even more so if they're caught looking at someone else.

[roguevalley]

234. LOL, NoOneMan. That was funny.

[WilliamPitt]

2. . . . . . .

[Brickbat]

3. *drinks*

[Sheldon Cooper]

4. If the shoe fits!

[geek tragedy]

5. You know what never works when approaching a woman to get her phone

number for a date?

Staring at her boobs like a dog staring at turkey cold cuts.

Spare me the "it's our job" crap--says who?

Also, women dress up because they want to dress up, not because they want random douchebags to ogle them.

[NoOneMan]

11. Please do not use the offensive anti-feminist term "douchebags" on DU

We're better than that.

[geek tragedy]

13. lmao. This subject is like MRA bingo nt

[grahamhgreen]

24. Have you ever dressed up to make yourself more attractive? Please be honest. I have,

and many women do as well.

[geek tragedy]

30. Oy. If someone is actually dressing up to make themselves more attractive, i.e. seeking sexual

activity, they don't want creepy stares, they want some good old fashioned human interactions.

Never have I dressed up hoping for people to ogle me.

[grahamhgreen]

42. Not just for sex. But to attract a mate as well. Now, just say you see a prospective partner,

What is the first thing you do?

Look at them.

Are you ogling or flirting with your eyes?

[geek tragedy]

50. Do you really not understand what ogling is?

Flirting is not ogling.

Noticing someone is not ogling.

Looking at someone and finding them attractive is not ogling.

Staring at someone's anatomy is ogling.

This is simple stuff.

[Diego_Native 2012]

118. Pray tell...

...how do you see someone without seeing their anatomy? Must I only observe their aura?

Maybe you would prefer everyone in burkas?

[xulamaude]

124. Feminists LOVE burkas!!1! It's a FACT!1!

[geek tragedy]

125. Most educated people know the difference between "seeing" and "noticing" and "appreciating"

on one hand and "leering" and "ogling" on the other.

[Comrade Grumpy]

148. And if they don't, you're here to set 'em straight.

[geek tragedy]

150. Just like you're here to enable their behavior, I guess nt

[Squinch]

168. Well, if they don't, someone ought to!

[NoOneMan]

126. I agree. And women need to stop modeling this behavior to men

It is not acceptable for men or women to ogle at female breasts (and yep, they both do it)

[boston bean]

45. It's like she dressed up just for him, doncha know...

put on a little make up, went down to the convenience store to pick up a gallon of milk and some bread, all for HIM, HIM, HIM, HIM, HIM, HIM.

[geek tragedy]

52. of course she wanted to be ogled and leered at, why else would she leave the burka at home?

Of course, that argument was actually made by an MRA here, so I should note that this is snark for juries.

[boston bean]

55. yeah, i saw that. that was pretty sick...

[geek tragedy]

67. from someone who's obsession here is prominent athletes

being falsely accused of rape . . .

but, how dare we alienate our allies?

[AgingAmerican]

158. So all the attractively dressed women I see downtown

....are seeking sexual activity? lol

[Harmony Blue]

238. It is no longer taboo to say

women seek out sexual relationships as much if not more then men now.

[AgingAmerican]

241. I work with many attractively dressed, married women

Are they also in search of a tryst, or do you think maybe they just wanna look good?

This is all so confusing

[Harmony Blue]

242. Well both men and women want to feel

and look good even if they are in a committed relationship. As long as flirting doesn't go beyond healthy boundaries and doesn't violate a partners feelings then I see no harm. But this type of nuance and gray area is difficult even for adults to traverse.

Some people are naturally friendly and people do mistake that for flirting when that isn't what they are perceive to be doing. So yes people are capable of reading the wrong singles based on how we dress. When I go to the supermarket dressed in a suit and tie for some reason I am treated as if I am something more. And yet I am still me.

[LanternWaste]

53. yet you stated dressing up to look attractive is the woman's job

Yet you originally stated dressing up to look attractive is the woman's job.

I see you're moving goalposts as you recognize your missteps...

[uppityperson]

61. Quit dressing up to look attractive as that is women's JOB. I mean, REALLY!!!!11111

[boston bean]

72. If these danged women would just stop it with all this dressing up

my genes/jeans could have a rest from their job! LOL

[mercuryblues]

196. what happens

when a woman looks attractive in jeans? Holy fucking shit on a popsicle stick. Are they still blaming the way a woman dresses on their own behavior? The attitude that women should dress a certain way to avoid creepy behavior is appalling. You know, because even women in burkas get raped.

I am not sorry or ashamed of what I wear. If you can't keep your eyes off my breasts when we are talking that says more about you than me. And what it says about you is that you are a creep that I don't care to know any further than this interaction. But of course the man will just say I must be frigid, a bitch, lesbian. "Cause you know they don't have a social interaction problem. No sirreee they are perfect.

[Boudica the Lyoness]

62. Yes

In my younger years, when I was single, I'd wear uncomfortable clothes to look extra hot.

Have you ever had a looked at these dating sites like POF? There are many women you claim they are tired of being treated like a sex object and being used. Yet in their profiles they post selfie pictures of their bums (some silly girls are standing on toilets to show off their bums in the bathroom mirrors) and pictures of their cleavage with push up bras....then they write they are not seeking a long term relationship. I'd love to give them some motherly advice.

[Sheldon Cooper]

163. And there is a difference between a woman who is actively seeking dates,

such as someone with a profile on a dating site, and another one who is just trying to run some errands on her lunch hour. You know the difference, and I'm pretty sure most guys do as well. But go ahead with the disingenuousness...

[Bobbie Jo]

159. +1000

Particularly the random ogling douchebag part.

[grahamhgreen]

169. Tell it to the women:

http://love.allwomenstalk.com/things-he-will-do-if-he-likes-you/5/

5. Longer Eye Contact

Do you notice that when your crush looks at you, he lingers on your stare? Does he constantly look right into your eyes and hold it? This is a surefire thing he'll do when he likes you! Most of the time, guys are pretty shy when it comes to their looks and who they stare at, so keep that in mind!

http://www.ask.com/answers/109850401/if-the-guy-that-i-like-stares-at-me-a-lot-does-that-mean-he-likes-me

Q: If the guy that i like stares at me a lot, does that mean he likes me?

A: He most probably does. When you catch a guy looking at you most of the time and he tries to make it appear like he wasn't looking, then it means he likes you a lot. You can either wait for him to talk to you or take the proverbial bull by the horns and talk to the guy.

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20111203205250AAZLwDa

This boy stares at me ALOT , whats his deal?

okay , im a sophmore and he is a senior.
he is so cute and popular & im just "ehhhhh" im pretty & all but im not drop dead gorgeous , im not a loser in school , I know mostly everyone but I dont party like he does. lately he's been starring at me . like that blank stare , its mysterious but its not creepy. he stares at me from a distance but when i come closer he turns his head and acts like im invisible. he's like sooo popular , and whenever im walking down the hallway his eyes follow me. this has been going on for about 2 months now . sadly i've developed a crush on him ; he seems different , his friends are idiots but he looks mature & he goes to class . sometimes he gets closer to me , like he'll tell one of my guy friend's hi , but ignores me . my friends have noticed him starring at me too . && sometimes i look back at him and we'll make eye contact for a quick second . last week we made eye contact for about 1O seconds , but i looked away because im shy =x . . . he just have that blank stare when he looks at me ! & he talks to everyone else but me he's not shy at all & he is super friendly . whats the point of starring at me if he's not gonna talk to me ? it bothers me that when i catch him starring he doesnt look away , & it pisses me off more that he talks to EVERYONE else but me !

[geek tragedy]

182. Yahoo! answers?

P.S. Eye contact is not ogling.

[grahamhgreen]

217. it is just before

you tear each others clothes off and make love, now, isn't it!

[Squinch]

228. Well, no.

[MineralMan]

7. Yah. Everyone wants to date these guys, for sure:

[HappyMe]

60. If it was me and my friend Joyce

in the backgound checking out a guy's behind, would that be creepy too?

[xulamaude]

99. Yep. nt

[HappyMe]

108. I guess I will try to not look at

anyone.

[In_The_Wind]

226. Darn it! I enjoy looking.

sigh

[MineralMan]

105. Yah, pretty much.

Oddly enough, though, I'm not finding any images on Google Images of that equivalent situation to use as an example. Wonder why that is...

Maybe you can send a photo of you and Joyce doing that, so I could judge it first-hand.

[HappyMe]

112. Women don't get caught?

[MineralMan]

119. I'm not sure. Maybe a photo of you and Joyce

leering at some guy's butt would help me visualize.

[HappyMe]

129. Never happen.

The only time any pictures get taken at that bar is on Halloween. We look and move on.

[MineralMan]

145. See how you are? Now we'll never know if you're really leering and ogling

those guy's butts. Pity...

[HappyMe]

156. Now, now.

We're just looking. I like men. They are funny, smart, interesting people.

[grahamhgreen]

164. We like you too:)

[tridim]

231. Or when I caught a woman at work staring at my butt...

and upon realizing it she physically covered her eyes and cowered behind her desk.

It was FAR from creepy. It's always about the person, not the action. Anyway, I didn't act on it because she was engaged.

This stuff is imprinted in our DNA, it is perfectly NORMAL.

[HereSince1628]

8. They're doing men a favor...

giving men the opportunity to practice the grace of tolerance typical of true liberals is a blessing.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

12. ...

[yellowcanine]

31. I beg to differ. Ending would be a good thing, however it happens.

[klook]

154. Looks like they're flying a Leer Jet. (n/t)

[grahamhgreen]

186. ROFL

[Ohio Joe]

14. oh noes... The poor oppressed men...

So sad...

[LanternWaste]

15. irrationally pretend to know what "our job" is.

"It is our job..."
Keep telling yourself what our job is, fella, as there may still be a handful of the un-evolved and the sub-literate who believe (or pretend) that to yet be the case, and crave the the self-validation of their creepy behavior.


"Sure, there are real creeps in the world...
I imagine they number among those who irrationally pretend to know what "our job" is.

[seabeyond]

18. is this for real? i am thinking it is a joke. not? nt

[LanternWaste]

51. It's far too sub-literate to be a joke.

It's far too sub-literate to be a joke-- no one is quite that good at pretending to be nescient

[seabeyond]

63. i really was confused. reading up the thread. realizing, no, not a joke. nt

[hootinholler]

16. And stop asking what's under my kilt! n/t

[HappyMe]

22. Sorry. It's one of life's great mysteries.

Kilts are very sexy.

[hootinholler]

41. Happens every time, lol

The best one was the bachelorette party I walked into while stopping for a drink while returning from an event.

[ismnotwasm]

44. Do you play bagpipes?

I never understood them until one morning on a special low tide, a kilted man was playing to the sea. It was stunning.
I 'get' them now.

[hootinholler]

80. Sadly no.

My cousin does though.

There is no instrument that can move my soul like the pipes. Just please, no Amazing Grace!

[ismnotwasm]

91. Too many funerals for that one

But that "Ode to the Sea" or whatever--I'm sure that's not the title-- wow

Early morning, a rare very low tide, the piper facing the sea, and the sound of the pipes echoing over the beach, over the water-- not something you ever forget

[hootinholler]

104. For me, it's more that it wasn't written for the pipes

That means it has to be forced into a pentatonic scale and just doesn't sound right.

He was probably playing one of the many laments which can literally make me cry.

[HappyMe]

46. Another mystery -

why the wind never seems to blow a kilt up. Curtain weights sewn into the hem?

[hootinholler]

95. It's the physics

The pleats are harder for the wind to bend, and there''s a lot of fabric to be lifted. It generally happens in a stiff wind whilst wearing summer weight fabric, and yes, I've had it happen.

There are photos of guards at Buckingham Palace with kilts being blown up.

Then there's the kilt pin which adds weight to the apron.

[HappyMe]

100. Thanks.

I did learn something in this thread.

[seabeyond]

17. really?

[yellowcanine]

23. "Women dress up to make themselves attractive, duh." Not the same as wanting a date. duh.

They may just have enough self respect to want to look nice. Duh.

[grahamhgreen]

170. Well, they don't "Dress to Kill" in order to kill somebody, now, do they?

Dress to kill means...say you were walking down a street...and you were wearing your sexiest ( not sluttiest) outfit...and a guy saw you...and he couldnt keep his eyes off of you cuz you look damn sexy!!!...and then got hit by a taxi and dies...that would be dressing to kill.

Try wearing some tight jeans that are bootcut...and black pointy heels...a white school girl shirt (think Britney)...and toussle your hair...you can even wear one of those belly chains if you have them

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20071127142137AAvmyUB

[CFLDem]

201. I submit that as society defines what 'looking nice' is

and it's men that control that society, anyone dressing to 'look nice' is dressing for men.

[yellowcanine]

211. Well that's the assumption, isn't it? And like many assumptions, wrong.

Women dress up for the same reason men dress up - because they have some self respect.

[uppityperson]

215. Is the opposite true then? women who do not "dress up" are lacking self respect?

[yellowcanine]

220. Oh I don't know - can't afford nice clothing - or they have a different notion of what they need

to have self respect. Some individuals, men and women, actually take some pride in looking a little dumpy. Takes all kinds......

[uppityperson]

221. I am one who feels no need to wear makeup, don't give a shit if you consider me "dumpy" because of t

that. I think I look good however I am, better when I am relaxed and happy. I had an ex tell me my not wearing makeup and dressing in a particular manner meant I did not feel good about myself when the opposite was true. I felt wonderful about myself and saw no need to make myself appear different. Lots of good self esteem means you do not bow to peer pressure of trying to "look good".


You don't like how I look, can not see past surface, your loss.

[ismnotwasm]

26. Not creep shaming of men

Creep shaming of men who are creeps. Perfectly acceptable practice.

[pintobean]

43. The problem is

thread after thread that may be directed at a very few, but appear to be directed at DU in general. For the most part, men and women of DU respect each other and get along fine. It's just a few on both sides who are at war and want the rest of us to choose sides. It's really tiresome.
I'm not staring at anyone's avatar for too long. I doubt anyone is.

[ismnotwasm]

71. DU is fluid in its topics

And will obsess, thread after thread any number of topics. When I get tired of it. I use key word trash or simply trash threads.

Nobody is at 'war'; feminism and the topics of feminism is a very valid and powerful part of a progressive movement. DU is it's own little microcosm, and a bit left behind in certain areas.

What I find interesting in these threads is the defensiveness-- it's actually a very easy discussion-- or should be--that in its most simplistic form simply says "don't be an asshole"

[1StrongBlackMan]

160. What I do not understand is ...

Why so many claim and own conduct that they recognize is out there; but do not believe they engage in?

Some men gawk. Some women find that creepy. If I do not believe that I gawk, AND have never been told that I gawk; why would I take offense to someone pointing out that some men Gawk (thereby, own conduct you do not engage in)? That makes no sense to me.

[pintobean]

183. Because they're blanket statements

and GD gets bombarded with them. Anyone who doesn't take up arms for the current outrage is either guilty, or an enabler. Like I said, it's just tiresome.

[1StrongBlackMan]

199. I think ...

the blanket statement thing is just common to the nature of human communication ... However, I also think that since everyone knows that the blanket statement is common to the nature of human communication; the need to object, suggests something else is going on. I mean ... there are plenty of blanket statements regarding ... say ... dog abuse or child abuse or republicanism posted to DU; yet very few DUers feel the need to object to those blanket statements.

[JVS]

240. So is slut shaming ok if the woman in question actually is promiscuous?

I don't think that's how these things work.

[redqueen]

245. Wow. So you think women can be 'sluts'?

Why don't you define 'promiscuous' for us?

What exactly makes a woman a 'slut', in your opinion, JVS?

[Spider Jerusalem]

27. "Our job to approach...etc etc"

is it 1950 already? Way to reinforce those traditional gender roles there.

[liberalmuse]

28. Is this a parody?

If not.........

[boston bean]

34. It would be a total waste if it's not actually a parody! LOL

[ismnotwasm]

35. I think so

Kinda fun though

[seabeyond]

40. i thought it was also. i really did. then perused the thread and see it is serious. nt

[Squinch]

113. Nope! It's GREAT, isn't it?

[Vashta Nerada]

37. As a man, I can understand how staring can be creepy.

Use a stare you use on a woman in a mirror at yourself.

It's creepy, isn't it?

[grahamhgreen]

180. Every woman I've ever been with stared at me. Longingly, I

might add....

“The soul, fortunately, has an interpreter - often an unconscious but still a faithful interpreter - in the eye.”
― Charlotte Brontë, Jane Eyre

“The eyes are one of the most powerful tools a woman can have. With one look, she can relay the most intimate message. After the connection is made, words cease to exist. ”
― Jennifer Salaiz“The Girl With Many Eyes

“When my eyes meet his gaze as we're sitting here staring at each other, time stops. Those eyes are piercing mine, and I can swear at this moment he senses the real me. The one without the attitude, without the facade[...]”
― Simone Elkeles, Perfect Chemistry

“His eyes are so intense I want to look away . . . or never look away, I can’t decide.”
― Kasie West, The Distance Between Us

[Vashta Nerada]

202. Yeah, but they weren't creepy people you didn't know in public.

There's a difference.

[grahamhgreen]

205. Of course. This is just a post to push back on the generalization of men as creeps. Attraction is

very subjective. One persons loving stare is another persons creep out.

[Iggo]

38. It's my job?

Wow. I'm waaaaay underpaid.

[uppityperson]

39. "It is our job"? W.T.F? Having a penis means you have a "job" of asking for dates and numbers?

Males have the "job" of approaching?

[grahamhgreen]

47. Correct. Welcome to our societies norms. If a man never approaches, or asks for dates or numbers,

It is likely he will rarely be dating. Just the way it is, I'm not saying it's how it should be.

[uppityperson]

56. Words fail me. At least ones that won't get hidden. Suffice it to say.....

HAhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.

It is the JOB of XY genetic bearers to ask for dates. Not something they can do if they want to, but their JOB. What century are you living in? Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.

Does this mean if I got someone's number, I am A Man or emasculating you? What about gay men? they are really stuck since their JOB is asking out women.

Your "job".

[KitSileya]

109. It's a miracle any lesbians find each other and become couples

Seeing as neither can ask the other out. They must be as rare as unicorns....or perhaps they find each other in other ways. Perhaps the OP and his ilk can ask them for a course in how to do it, so they're relieved from the "job". (And we can be relieved of their unwanted solicitations!)

[xulamaude]

117. How DO they do it?! LOL!

Wait, let me go ask my partner...

[grahamhgreen]

190. Come on, this is in a hetero context....

The issue is that a lot of socially awkward men are perceived as 'creepy', but really they are just doing the best they can.

Are socially awkward lesbians perceived as creepy as well?

[xulamaude]

193. Nope. I've never once feared that a

"socially awkward" lesbian might harm me in any way.

[grahamhgreen]

184. Yeah, it's our job, and sometimes....

we get fantastic dates with smart, exciting women who tear with us us from this world into heavenly realms I hope you have tread

I encourage you to ask for guy's numbers, assuming you like them!

Seriously, it is generally considered in our society the mans role to ask. Example check out this guide for girls:

Crushin’ on a guy can be hard. And waiting for him to start crushin’ back can be even harder. But never fear! We’ve got a few super easy tips and tricks for you to try on your cutie.

Be friends first
When you’re crushin’ on a guy, we know that it’s hard to think of him as just a pal. But it’s important for him to get to know you as a friend before he can get to know you as something more. It might take time, but starting up a conversation with him a few times will totally go a long way.

Flash your pearly whites
A smile is a huge sign of confidence. Make eye contact with your crush, and flash him a killer grin. He’ll know you’re friendly—and that’s a good thing! A simple smile might give you the opportunity to walk over and strike up a conversation with him.

Don’t be afraid to flirt
If you want him to see you as more than a friend, you’re going to have to flirt with him a li'l. Not too much, because you don’t want to overdo it. But when you’re fun and flirty, he’ll start to see you in a different way. It will always show that you’re totally confident with who you are, which guys totally dig.

Change your route
It might be a good idea to switch up your route in the halls so you can pass him between classes. It’s a great way to squeeze in a quick convo and catch up with him. With this in mind, don’t switch up every single route. You don’t want to seem like you’re following him. If you get to see him once a day, it’ll be a sweet treat for you and him.


Listen as much as you talk
You obviously want him to know as much about you as possible, but you need to know just as much about him. When you’re chatting with him, make sure you’re not doing all of the talking. Make sure it’s a two-sided exchange!

Dress to impress
If you know you’re going to see your crush, maybe spend a li'l extra time picking out your outfit, or do something different with your hair. Don’t go all-out and get too fancy, but doing something different will definitely make you stand out and catch his attention.

Hang with a group
Suggesting a hangout sesh with just the two of you might seem like too much to him at first. Try getting a group of your girls together and tell him to bring his guys. That way, you still get to hang out with him, but you get to test the waters first. Added bonus? You’ll get to know his friends and vice-versa.

Partner up
If you have a class with your crush, suggest being partners on a project. It’ll be a great way to get some quality hang-time and get to know each other a little more. You’ll get to see how you two work together, and he will too!

Get to know his buds

One of the best ways to a guy’s heart is through his pals. It’s always a good sign when a girl can hang out with a group of “bros” and just have a good time. Your crush will see that you’re really down-to-earth and easy to get along with. His friends will get to know you, too!

Don’t let the secret out

It’s totally cool for you to let your girls know you’re crushin’, but try not to tell your crush! It might make him feel uncomfortable, and he might still be getting a feel for the situation. If he likes you, he’ll make it obvious when he’s ready. Just keep the friend thing going and he’ll figure everything out for himself.

http://www.girlslife.com/post/2011/09/27/Wish-your-crush-would-ask-you-out-already-Ten-ways-to-make-it-happen.aspx


So, this is pretty typical, if you're male, and you don't ask women out, you'll likely spend your life alone. Not true for women.

[uppityperson]

189. And is it also a Man's Job to work and support the woman? What is the woman's Job?

[grahamhgreen]

191. OK, so you concede the point that in our society, the man is expected to approach?

[uppityperson]

192. No, I do not conced that at all but am asking if supporting women is also men's job and

about what you consider women's Job.

Do not try to put words in my mouth.

[grahamhgreen]

212. I support my women 100%. Is all I can say.

[uppityperson]

213. Is financially supporting women also mens Job? What are womens Job/Jobs?

[xulamaude]

216. YOUR women?!

Did you buy them, or win them in a poker game?

[grahamhgreen]

219. I simply love them :)

[Squinch]

230. Don't you have any sources that are geared older then middle school? First Yahoo answers, then this?

[MineralMan]

142. You know, that's not so. Not at all.

Back in my younger, single days (long, long ago), I found that my absolute best strategy for meeting interesting women was to plant my butt somewhere at a gathering and just sit there and observe the proceedings. Parties, meetings, whatever. I'm presentable, but not some kind of striking-looking guy. Invariably, someone would come up and begin a conversation with me. Invariably it would be a woman. I've met many people that way, arranged dates, gotten phone numbers, etc. In a few case, it led to more immediate interactions.

"Hi, I'm Julie. What are you doing sitting over here all by yourself."

I'm still doing that, as an old married guy, and I'm still seeing women come over to talk to me. I'm no longer interested in meeting possible partners in anything, but I'm still having interesting conversations with women who have take the initiative to come and talk to me.

So, your supposition that men must be the "aggressors" and make the approach simply isn't true. In fact, it's much more interesting to do just the opposite, or so I've found.

[Boudica the Lyoness]

73. I don't know about you, but when I was single

I never asked a guy for his number, because it would have given the wrong impression.

[uppityperson]

90. I have had no problem doing so. It gives the impressiomn you are interested and this is what? Bad?

I was raise to wait for the guy to make the first move, to ask yiu out, but came to realize that it was ok for me to do it also as this gave me the ability to chose for myself, rather than wait for someone else to chose for me. This came after my first marriage divorce which happened because I was asked and "needed" to be grateful someone asked and say yes.

If I am interested enough to get together with someone, male or female (hetero here) , I just ask. It gives the impression I would like to get to know them better and/or like spending time withthem. Bothe of which are a good impression.



Of course getting a number or going out did not mean sex was necessary but again, only if we both wanted to. An ex-boyfriend told me I'd better be prepared because agreeing to a movie or dinner meant obligatory sex. I laughed and told him no, it'd cost more than that to get laid.

[penultimate]

172. Is there still a fair amount of women who have an expectation that the man make the first move

Obviously not all of them, but I'd say over half the females I've ever had discussions related to this topic said they rarely make first moves. I don't know how much of that is just a personality thing though. Also, okcupid.com (dating website) used to do all sorts of number crunching on the stats, and they found that women rarely made first contact on that website. But online dating is weird, so I don't know well that maps to the real world.

[mockmonkey]

48. Good Job!

[Tuesday Afternoon]

57. I shame no Man.

Creeps are another story.

[arcane1]

58. It's not MY job.

Bothering random strangers on the bus is not a requirement to dating.

[zappaman]

59. Everybody do The Creep!

[ismnotwasm]

78. LOL

That's hilarious.

[darkangel218]

81. LMAO!!!

[Initech]

85. Lonely Island FTW!

[Squinch]

97. Perfect!

[darkangel218]

64. Aproaching is fine.

Not knowing when to back off is the problem.

[GeorgeGist]

68. Not shaming me.

Sounds like the creeps are the only ones complaining.

[Diego_Native 2012]

127. Ad hominem...you lose.

[Squinch]

132. Seriously? You just said that? Does your mother know you're posting?

[xulamaude]

161. I was just going to say:

Your mom called and wants you to come upstairs and take the trash out.

[uppityperson]

69. I reced to put on Greatest page for wimmin and mens would learn about their JOBs.

It could be The Onion, but it isn't

[Initech]

70. Who needs butter? I've got plenty!

[stevenleser]

75. Yes, please pass some over. The corn is easy to pop on this flame bait

[darkangel218]

76. I need some.

Just got mine outta microwave.

[LittleBlue]

94. Over here, man

Most entertaining DU has been since the vaginal knitting thread

[Initech]

130. I should go buy some stock in Orville Redenbacher and Land O'Lakes!

[BootinUp]

74. I'm a creep, what the hell am I doin here

couldn't resist.

[darkangel218]

79. Buy us more drinks, dammit!!

Wtf...

[Initech]

133. Yeah I'm getting low on beer here!

[BootinUp]

162. anything you say, lol

[WorseBeforeBetter]

110. Ha, I was about to post the same thing.

Radiohead and HOF v. MRA. God bless us, every one!

[NuclearDem]

89. If that's what you took away from this, then that's just sad.

Last edited Mon Dec 23, 2013, 03:21 PM - Edit history (1)

ETA - howdy Pab Fitman.

[arcane1]

134. You created an account just to jump into this?

[PeaceNikki]

137. Just can't stay away, can you?

[DonCoquixote]

84. sorry dude

But some men are creeps.

[grahamhgreen]

198. As I said in the OP:) BUT, socially awkward men are creep shamed, quite often, when

in reality, they are doing the best they can.

[DonCoquixote]

247. I am an Asberger's sufferer

So I know that it is possible to creep people out, however, many people are just creepy because they think a girl has some sort of duty to (censored) them.

[YoungDemCA]

88. What year is this?

"It is our job."

Um...

[ismnotwasm]

106. Bullshit

I knew a very handsome, very well built, (ultimately convicted rapist)-- he had creepy all over him-- especially the eyes ugh. I stayed the fuck away from him. It didn't matter what he looked like-- he was creepy as hell.

[boston bean]

120. When the guy is eyeballing you up and down, can't keep his eyes to himself

when it looks like he's lost in a fantasy of fucking you, probably getting a bit erect. Believe you me, it happens all the time to women, and it's not just nasty, it's fucking uncomfortable and the first thing a woman in that position wants to do is get the FUCK away!

[geek tragedy]

136. How does a jury let the observation that a woman can have "slut all over her" go?

From a person with two whole posts?

Seriously, what goes through people's heads?

[oldhippie]

146. Duh! I think that was his point ......

.... and it just whooshed right over your head.

Sometimes it's just amazing.

[geek tragedy]

147. No, that was just a garden variety misogynist troll who has been MIRTed. nt

[laundry_queen]

149. No kidding.

I feel sick.

[PeaceNikki]

151. He's gone now.

[geek tragedy]

153. Yeah, jury let that post stand though. MIRT has to clean up after a lot of messes

left by bad juries.

[PeaceNikki]

155. Indeed. If that is/wasn't a zombie, I will eat my hat.

*cough* Pab Sungenis *cough*

[geek tragedy]

157. yeah, probably nt

[WorseBeforeBetter]

138. Creepy eyes.

And if you were making a fair comparison, it would be:

Man, there was this really fit, curvy woman who had CREEP all over her, I could totally tell by her, um... eyes, yeah, that's it. Her eyes.

But you aren't here to be fair, are you?

[ismnotwasm]

140. Perhaps I should have clarified

He was staring at me, way past the point of politeness. Had a way of holding his head, slightly tilted down so his eyes could flicker from bust to face quickly. Stood behind me in a line, I turned and he was staring at my butt. He'd walk by brush by too close and touch an arm or whatever body part was close. I'd startle and try he'd try to catch my eyes. His eyes were constantly on my body. Had this little half smile on his face. After all this he tried to ask me out.

Finally I told him that's he was a creepy motherfucker and to,fuck right off. He found easier pickings. After that I'd stare him down-- not smart given what I subsequently learned about him, but I wasn't going to let him get away with that shit. Finally he started dropping his eyes.

[WorseBeforeBetter]

175. I understood you the first time. (n/t)

[ismnotwasm]

143. Hey you think she wants you?

You know if you were casually walking down the street and saw that stare?

[WorseBeforeBetter]

177. The now-banned poster didn't seem to *get* creepy eyes.

There are leering eyes. Crazy eyes. Dead eyes. Soulless eyes. S/he seemed to think sizing someone up based on their eyes was ridiculous. Which is, well, ridiculous.

[ismnotwasm]

139. Perhaps I should have clarified

He was staring at me, way past the point of politeness. Had a way of holding his head, slightly tilted down so his eyes could flicker from bust to face quickly. Stood behind me in a line, I turned and he was staring at my butt. He'd walk by brush by too close and touch an arm or whatever body part was close. I'd startle and try he'd try to catch my eyes. His eyes were constantly on my body. Had this little half smile on his face. After all this he tried to ask me out.

Finally I told him that's he was a creepy motherfucker and to,fuck right off. He found easier pickings. After that I'd stare him down-- not smart given what I subsequently learned about him, but I wasn't going to let him get away with that shit. Finally he started dropping his eyes.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

141. You even see it on the internets.

Some posts have creepy all over them.

[WorseBeforeBetter]

131. Someone posting in this thread has suggested (in at least one other thread)...

that only unattractive men ogle. Something is definitely driving some bias there. I'd link to the post(s), but I'm guessing that would be considered too much of a callout.

And it is bullshit.

[grahamhgreen]

210. One womans ogle is another's loving stare... it's very subjective.

[WorseBeforeBetter]

233. I ogled a beautiful 21-year-old the other day.

Or at least I thought he was 21. And I'm old enough to be his mother. But he winked and smiled, so all is right with the world.

This thread sure beats wrapping presents... thanks.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

102. Instant Classic.

[Squinch]

107. And I think completely unintentional.

[boston bean]

115. That makes it so much more delicious!

The irony of it all is so satisfying!

[grahamhgreen]

208. I assure you, I'm enjoying this as much as you are. Now, if I could

just get a couple dates out of it....

[boston bean]

209. not likely.

[grahamhgreen]

223. Haha!

I know, but I really had to speak up for some of my male friends who have been just brutalized by women they've simply tried to say hello to.

Sure, they're nerdy geeks, but the responses are sometimes just over the top rude.

[Squinch]

232. Like the kind some men make in the same situation?

[intaglio]

114. Cross posted because I hadn't seen this little gem of idiocy

Turn your argument from entitlement round

You see an exceptional man, he is tall and works in the local supermarket and you, cannot stop staring at him.

Problem, he has a massive and swollen port-wine stain covering a third of his face, it is a truly exceptional disfigurement. Do you stare at him as he walks round? Do you whisper to your mates "check that guy out"? Do you go up to him and tell him how interesting it is to see someone who looks like him? Do you ask if you can take a photo for your blog or for the local newspaper? Do you ask if you can touch his face?

If you answered yes to any of those questions you are an insensitive and ignorant prannock with the emotional maturity of a four year old.

Now apply the same test to a woman (or man) you find beautiful, exceptionally beautiful. Do you stare at her as she walks round? Do you whisper to your mates to check him/her out? Do you go up to him/her and tell him/her how beautiful s/he is? Do you ask if you can take a picture for your blog or a magazine? Do you ask if you can touch his/her face?

Guess what? If you answered yes to any of those questions you are an insensitive and ignorant prannock with the emotional maturity of a four year old.

Stare at sunsets or lovely landscapes all you want. Constantly checking out that beautiful person is an intrusion and an insult.

Original post

[A-Schwarzenegger]

122. Stop with the prannock shaming.

(Good post.)

[boston bean]

123. LOL!

[Laelth]

222. I'm not sure I follow this analogy.

Women are, in general, neither disfigured nor scarred. I'm not defending anyone's behavior, here, but this analogy fails for me.

-Laelth

[intaglio]

237. Perhaps it applies to any person who looks exceptional

Exceptional includes both beautiful and disfigured as well as many other qualities.

THINK

If a person is in some way physically exceptional do they need you to keep staring at them? Do they need you to to attract the attention of others? Do they need you to record their appearance? Do they need you to approach them so their qualities can be checked out?

THINK

Would you want people staring at you all the time?

Would you want people constantly whispering about you?

Would you want people coming up and asking to be photographed with you?

Would you want total strangers touching you?

THINK

[1StrongBlackMan]

135. I hope you forgot to tag the sarcasm thingy ...

"Approaching" isn't the problem ... the refusal to stop the "approaches, when asked or ignored.
Asking for dates and numbers isn't the problem ... it's the asking for dates and numbers, after being told no or ignored.
It's not noticing that women make themselves attractive when dressed up ... It's the gawking/leering; however, they are dressed or looking.

Yes, there are real creeps in the world ... including the "most guys (that) are just doing the best they can"; but call women speaking out against unwanted attention, "creep shaming."

Thanks!

[The2ndWheel]

144. People take the word job seriously

Since any man can be a potential rapists(as has been pointed out many times), then yeah, men have to prove they're not rapists. That's sort of a job, although not in a literal sense. Unless you're one of the lucky men, women most likely aren't going to approach men, for dates, or numbers, or basically anything that isn't work related.

What about lesbians? I don't know, are they as afraid to approach women as they would be a man if they weren't lesbians?

What about gay men? Again, I don't know, are they afraid to approach other gay men?

You know what makes people(or straight men specifically) creepy? A lack of practice. A lack of practice interacting with people that you find attractive. Why? Well, you're probably not a great looking guy, which is always the first impression, good or bad. Especially when you're younger, and first begin to develop those social skills. If you do get the practice in developing those skills, then it helps as you get older. If you don't, then you're probably going to be weird, and awkward, and creepy. Even if you don't ogle, or stare, or whatever. You're just going to develop that essence. Then you end up wanting to develop those social skills, don't know how, and that makes you even more creepy, because then you're trying to force interaction with someone you find attractive, which ends up being weird. Then you give up, and you're just that creepy guy that nobody talks to and you're never seen with anyone, which just makes you more creepy.

[Cal Carpenter]

152. I hope you are young

Because if you are older than about 25 and you think your post is true, you may be a lost cause.

In any case, please don't ever try to speak for all men again, because your OP is more shameful than just about anything I've seen on this topic.

[Dash87]

165. .

[url][/url]

[Harmony Blue]

166. I agree 100% with you grahamgreen

until women take the first step to teach their young girls to actively approach men they have no right to make demands or shame men that are trying to forge a lasting relationship with the opposite sex.

I personally have found that their shame tactics no longer work and why they are deeply unpopular now.

[kcr]

200. Have you looked at a calendar lately? Do you know what year it is? n/t

[penultimate]

167. Is someone saying guys are not supposed to ever approach women to ask them out?

I often times see these discussions and it always seems as if the people debating are discussing two different situations. I'm a guy and I notice attractive women and occasionally I might find my eyes track over the cleavage area. It's not intentional, nor do I stare at them. Are there people who have problems with that? If so, I agree with you 100%. However, it usually seems as if people have issues with those creepy people who constantly stare or make lewd comments. Not wanting that type of behavior seems reasonable, in my opinion. As for approaching women to get their phone numbers or asking them on dates, I think it's the same thing with people talking about two different situations. If a person gets the impression that someone is interested in them and they ask the person out, but it turns the other person isn't interested, I don't see the big deal. Are there people who have issues with that, or do they take issues with the guy who just doesn't let up after the rejection? That is creepy and annoying behavior that shouldn't be tolerated.

Are there people who think it's wrong for guy to ever approach a woman? If so, I'd like to either talk to them or see some of their writings/posts.

[boston bean]

206. I don't think you will find any posts that meet the criteria of your last sentence. nt

[Logical]

171. Someone sesiously alerted this. And lost 6-0. Unbelievable. Talkin gabout trying to...

shut down discussion.


At Mon Dec 23, 2013, 02:53 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

Stop with the creep shaming of men, already.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024217568

REASON FOR ALERT:

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS:

This OP is pure flame bait.

It's simply there to piss people off -- If MIRT locks down trolls for this kinda stuff, Why should this be allowed to stand.

It's flame bait.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Mon Dec 23, 2013, 03:07 PM, and the Jury voted 0-6 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: There is a reason we have freedom of speech. Not expressing ourselves is hurtful to ourselves and eventually others. It is also not pure flamebait. I think the alerter knows this and does not want to admit that with out the exaggeration their point falls flat. Say how and where you disagree. Don't try to fight this by making yourself think that everyone agrees with you. That's not fair, just or honest.
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: Are fucking kidding me? I guess people only want one side of this argument! What a worthless post.
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: This has been up almost 2 hours, has 165 replies and 10 recs. While I agree it's there to provoke, it seems like it has an audience...

[rocktivity]

173. Men aren't the cause of creep-shaming.

Creeps are.


rocktivity

[Jester Messiah]

174. Wait, is this Tumblr?

Coulda swore I clicked on the DU bookmark.

[ecstatic]

176. You do have a point. I could never approach

random guys for dates. When I see a guy staring me down and I'm not interested, I avoid eye contact as much as possible to discourage him from trying to start conversation. It can get awkward, but most guys get the point and move on.

Edit: Actually, now that I think about it. Maybe staring too much and mysteriously ending up on the same aisles can be a problem. It happened last night and I do recall being concerned that he might try to follow me home. So I definitely checked my rearview a couple times just to make sure.

[KitSileya]

227. That is exactly the problem.

"Men are afraid women will laugh at them, women are afraid men will kill them." That is the assessment most women have inculturated in them from before menarche - will he get angry, will he lash out if I reject him? If he checks me out, is he one of the leeches I cannot shake? However, if we say that out loud, men (sorry, 'many men' ) get indignant, it's an offense to men. No concern for women, whose life experience this is. Men's offense outweighs women's discomfort and fear and curtailing of how they live their lives.

[ecstatic]

236. I didn't connect the dots at first, because I don't think

I've ever discussed this topic or put much thought into my automatic reactions to certain behavior, but your quote is perfect: "Men are afraid women will laugh at them, women are afraid men will kill them."

I'm laid back and don't have a problem with an initial stare, but if I "coincidentally" end up near the same guy more than twice, and he's staring each time, that's when my "creepy" radar begins to go off.

My advice to well meaning "good guys" would be this: Either make your move/comment the first time you see the woman, or let it go. DO NOT purposely walk near her several times while you work up the courage to approach, because then it becomes a safety issue. As far as prolonged staring, like at a bar or something, it's hard to say. For me personally, the situation doesn't escalate until I've changed locations (within the venue) and I see the same guy (staring at me) again.

[hrmjustin]

178. Some people do not like to be starred at or checked out.

I think people should be condiderate

[Logical]

181. I agree. Most men are not that obvious. And should not be. n-t

[JVS]

239. Some people like to look at whatever they see in public.

If someone doesn't like me looking at them, they can get the fuck away from me.

[hrmjustin]

244. Do you think it is rude to stare at someone when and make them uncomfortable?

[BainsBane]

179. Are you referring to the Indian film?

Because those guys are creeps. They aren't interested in approaching women. Their goal is to intimidate and control public space.
I'm sorry you see yourself as a creep. Perhaps you want to rethink your approach?

[sibelian]

188. Hoo, boy.

I really don't think the average woman is bothered by a nice guy who wants a date. It's primarily the ACTUAL creeps they'd rather got lost.

[Harmony Blue]

197. Attraction is a big part if a person

perceives to be slighted by a person approaching.

[BainsBane]

224. Yes, but if one is unable to distinguish showing respectful attraction

from ogling and harassment, that goes a long way toward explaining issues he might have with the opposite sex.

[geek tragedy]

195. submitted without comment, the rational wiki entry for 'creep shaming'

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Creep_shaming

"Creep shaming" is shaming someone by describing him[2] or his behaviour as "creepy," or in similar terms. Creepy behavior (or men) involve things such as hitting on a woman persistently or disrespectfully, assuming she is looking for attention, failing to read obvious body language (ie., head down, reading a book, listening to music) and trying to start up a conversation, and failing to take "no" for an answer.

However, according to the men's rights activists, misogynists, and other frustrated male cranks who coined the phrase, creep shaming is a weapon that women (or feminists in particular) use to persecute men, and an example of female "privilege." The term is a takeoff on "slut shaming," and is used to suggest that the man is being made to feel ashamed just for being male rather than the specific context of how he has behaved, and that the women shaming him are saying that they don't want men to flirt with women at all. Needless to say, this is bullshit, since the implication is that, um... creepiness isn't bad, or something.

An example of this delusional worldview can be seen in this comment posted on Reddit in 2011,[3] which has since become a popular talking point in both MRA and feminist circles:

“”Creep shaming is probably one of the most insidious and anti-equality things you can do. The ability to label men as "creepy" is just one privilege that women enjoy, and a constant source of fear of ostracizing that all men must fear in our society.

The concept of creep shaming and the baggage that goes along with it is a classical false dilemma — the people who like to throw the term around tend to be bitter, lonely misogynists with a history of constant rejection and a near-total lack of self-awareness, and therefore avoid paying attention to the whole context of what "creepiness" is. The creep shaming meme also ties in with other common ideas among such misogynists, like the pick-up artist view that if your attempts at seducing a chick don't work, there must be something wrong with her and not you. The subtext is that these guys don't want to acknowledge that they may actually have some personality issues to work out before most women will show interest in them, so instead they attack women for, essentially, having standards and an instinct for self-preservation. It's essentially entitled NiceGuyism turned into a debating point.

[grahamhgreen]

204. LOL. Yes, there are creeps. Labeling a male creepy for looking at a girl who has

intentionally dressed to attract men, or who approaches said girl to speak with her, is creep shaming.

Quote, "these guys don't want to acknowledge that they may actually have some personality issues to work out". Of course they have personality issues. The world is filled with socially awkward people. How can they possibly get over their awkwardness if they don't talk to people? Belittling a guy in front of others for simply saying hello because you don't think he's attractive is creep shaming. Calling a guy a creep for looking at a girl in a mini dress is creep shaming. Calling the police on a guy who is following you around after you've told him to leave you alone is not creep shaming. That is all.

[geek tragedy]

207. no one is doing any of the things about which you're complaining.

they're complaining about men behaving like creeps.

No one is saying men shouldn't ask women out on dates. No one is saying men should not notice attractive women. No one is saying men shouldn't say hello to women.

[treestar]

246. Intentionally dressed to attract men

is there some rule you made up to decide that? How do you know what they intend? No woman's clothing entitles you to do or say anything whatsoever.

[Bok_Tukalo]

203. This is epic

<OPE>

[Shankapotomus]

218. .

[Taitertots]

229. But the media has indoctrinated people into believing that socially awkward/introverted is....

unacceptable. In the real world, most of the traits associated with weirdness/creepiness/awkwardness have negative correlation or no correlation to dangerous behavior.

Not to generalize, but my experience has been:
There is negative correlation between long term success in relationships and the initial creepiness of a male partner.

[liberal_at_heart]

235. I do think the men shaming goes too far sometimes, but times have changed. It is not a man's job

to ask out a woman. Women ask men out all the time. Men ask women out all the time. Men ask men out all the time. Women ask women out all the time. It's not anybody's job to ask anybody out.

[treestar]

243. lol is it 1950?

either can approach, ask for dates, etc.

[derby378]

248. ...

[AgingAmerican]

249. I never asked girls for their phone number

I would give them my number. If they liked me, they would call eventually. Of course I didn't do it all the time. Just if I thought she liked me and the situation was right.

Most guys aren't creeps. Most women aren't creeps either.

[we can do it]

250. Stop with the creeping and I will quit with the shaming.

[grahamhgreen]

251. Well, that was fun! Locking... just remember....

Mean People Suck.