Salvation for Dummies

[Scuba]

This discussion thread was locked as off-topic by Sissyk (a host of the General Discussion forum).

[longship]

1. Brilliant!

Love Mrs. Betty Bowers!

R&K

[billh58]

87. +100

The absurdity of organized religion is mainly that the flock don't know that they're being fleeced.

[BlueStreak]

2. I just came home from a Christian funeral

Lovely lady -- smart, talented, caring, not an evil bone in her body. Died suddenly of a heart attack at age 71 when her family had come in for Christmas. Very sad.

Of course the minister gave that usual mumbo jombo about "Lord calling her home ... her peace in heaven for eternity ... she's in a better place ... yadda yadda yadda" But that was only 5% of the message. The rest of the time was spent talking about all the activities she participated in at church, all the worldwide trips the choir had taken, all the parties, all the fun.

I swear almost everybody, in their heart of hearts, knows that the "she's in a better place" line is crap. They belong to church because it is a social club and a very good one. They know that the eternity bit is a just white lies we tell ourselves because it really does make the grief easier to deal with for many people. We are a social species and most people really have a yearning for interaction and friends. And the churches supply that.

I will miss her. I'm glad she made such an impact on so many people. And I am glad she got so much enjoyment from her church club.

[el_bryanto]

3. So almost every believer is essentially a liar?

I'm sorry you don't believe, but really - most of the believers are just pretending to believe? Do you realize how offensive that is?

Bryant

[BlueStreak]

4. The club has its ceremonies and they are OK with it

There's no downside. If it is true, they win eternity. If it isn't well, nobody will know, will they? Meanwhile, they get all the social benefits.

What's not to like?

[el_bryanto]

5. That's Pascals wager - but again your statement is that most believers

or at least those who believe in an afterlife, are phonies and liars? Or did I misread you?

Bryant

[rhett o rick]

6. Pascal's wager applied when those that didnt believe were really on the fence.

Today it doesnt apply to non-believers. How can you tempt someone with something they dont believe in?

Another way to look at it and forgive the terrible analogy. If I told you that 2 + 2 = 7 and you said you didnt believe. And then I offered you $50 to believe. Would that really make you believe?

[el_bryanto]

8. Than why do non-believers go to church, as this person claims?

That's the issue; he's claiming that most church goers are phonies.

Bryant

[MynameisBlarney]

13. I'm a godless heathen, and I go to church for funerals and weddings

but that's it. I've gotten to where I can tune out the all the mumbo-jumbo. But it used to take all my resolve to keep from engaging them in my usual manner.
I do my best to avoid those places like the plague.

[BlueStreak]

20. I would have preferred a wake to a memorial service, but they didn't put it up to a vote

The church was full. You see, that is one of the benefits of club membership -- assurance of a good send-off.

This is really appealing to a lot of people. Personally I try every day to make my mark. When I die, I want to be cremated with the ashes returned to the earth without fanfare. If my friends want to meet in a bar and recall a few of our good times, I would be happy. But I'd rather outlive them.

[MynameisBlarney]

29. I hear ya.

The other blacksheep in my family always have our private wakes for the deceased after the service.

[BlueStreak]

15. They aren't "non believers" They are people for whom the social atmosphere

is very important and they are OK with going along with the doctrine. There is no reason not to -- other than one's own intellectual integrity, which isn't so important to most people.

[el_bryanto]

16. "I think most Atheists can feel the truth of God in their hearts; they just reject it."

I that an offensive statement?

Bryant

[BlueStreak]

21. Not at all. Just silly.

[Gore1FL]

42. Rather depends on how you define "God" n/t

[BlueStreak]

10. I don't have to believe to take your $50. That's the point

I don't have to actually believe beyond any doubt. I just have to believe enough to say what you want to hear. There are no downsides to going along with the doctrine.

[BlueStreak]

9. White lies aren't really lying

"Liar" is such a harsh word. Let's just call it rationalization.

But yes. Fundamentally everybody who partakes is either delusional or else acting very rationally according to Pascal's wager. And I would assert that majority are in the latter category -- i.e. it is a good bet and it doesn't hurt anybody.

The interesting thing is that you can't demand evidence of that because you already admit that evidence is not important to you. You'll just have to accept my proposition as a matter of faith -- or not.

[el_bryanto]

11. Do you have any evidence?

When you say I've already admitted that evidence is not important to me, you mean because I'm a believer?

And I am guessing that since I am asserting I am a believer you would describe me as delusional?

Bryant

[BlueStreak]

18. Not necessarily.

One might be delusional -- believing in spirits without any evidence, or one might just not care that much about the whole dogma thing and be willing to not rock that boat in exchange for the social support and other benefits that church membership provides.

[el_bryanto]

19. OK let me spell this out for you very clearly. I believe in God. I don't go to church for social

benefits; I don't really get any. I go because I believe that is what God wants me to do.

Am I delusional or not?

Bryant

[BlueStreak]

23. Before I reply, answer me this

Do you own a gun?

[el_bryanto]

26. No I'm a pacifist, more or less.

But boy that question is telling.

Go on.

Bryant

[BlueStreak]

52. I diidn't want to irritate you further if you were a gun owner

People of faith are generally no harm -- generally a net plus to society. People of faith with guns -- well, the risk profile is going up there.

[el_bryanto]

56. Shit or get off the pot

By your definition am I delusional or not?

Bryant

[BlueStreak]

59. If you communicate regularly with spirits, yeah, it would seem so.

[el_bryanto]

61. And anybody who believes fits into that category

Unless they are just pretending to believe - so believers are either phonies or delusional.

Fuckin' Atheists.

Bryant

[BlueStreak]

65. Is a person who believes in astrology delusional?

If a person believes that a scrap of paper in a "fortune cookie" is speaking to them personally, are they delusional?

Is a person who fears witches and warlocks delusional?

If a person believes that knocking on wood protects against the fate tempted by the words just uttered, is that person delusional?

In the case of knocking on wood, many of us do that. It is just a ritual that everyone understands and nobody really takes literally. It is only when people start taking these things literally, and acting out that faith that we get into the area of delusion.

[el_bryanto]

73. You've made your point

I think you've been very clear in what you think of believers and I appreciate your honesty.

Bryant

[BlueStreak]

74. What I think of believers

is that they are misguided, but if they do no harm, it is none of my business what they believe. And I would hope for the same in return from them.

The institutions that prey on this natural human tendency to explain that which is not understood -- they are not so benign and I am not so willing to say it is none of my business.

[el_bryanto]

75. Trying to get back to safe ground, eh?

I don't blame you. Mocking religion and churches is safer ground than making fun of all believers.

Bryant

[hrmjustin]

77. Good point.

[BlueStreak]

79. The OP graphic was about the instututions. Jesus isn't here to speak for himself.

They said the Lord's Prayer at that memorial service today. Have you ever noticed that is essentially a loyalty oath to the church enterprise, not to the faith itself?

It is essentially a contract offer. You do these things, and in return here are the benefits that you can get only through our church -- but you must act now ...

[el_bryanto]

82. Like i said I go to church every week; I don't feel extorted

The fact that you look at it this way shows what a distorted childlike view of religion you have.

Bryant

[phil89]

85. Well

you pushed him for an answer and he gave you one.

[hrmjustin]

62. Are you you delusional if you believe in God?

[FSogol]

24. Didn't she say, in her opinion, almost everyone?

You are upset because someone's opinion differs from what you think about Church attendance?

[el_bryanto]

27. She called almost every Christian a liar and a phony

Yes I am offended.

Bryant

[AuntPatsy]

50. Why do you believe God wants you to go to church?

[el_bryanto]

51. Because I have prayed and felt a connection to him; and among other things he'd like me to do

is go to Church.

Bryant

[AuntPatsy]

67. I know quite a few who differ with not only how they perceive God but also what they believe

Their particular God wants from them, it's all about personal needs and or fears is my personal belief, it is factual how and why so many stories ended up in the so called words of God.

How I would more than likely privately view your beliefs in the real world is that you simply need to have a degree of faith in order to feel at ease in a world not so easy to deal with as I view some believers, there are many reasons I believe why people have faith in a deity, one never seen nor proven beyond a reasonable doubt to even ever existed.

I personally have my own beliefs but I honestly do not feel victimized and or insulted if someone fails to rationalize my beliefs which may differ from theirs. I don't understand why those who believe in Gods and or Goddesses allow others to make them feel insulted, I can only assume it is because privately the person feeling insulted may fell a bit wobbly on that faith, when your older it truly should become personal with no need to have validation of said beliefs from anyone other than yourself.

My personal feelings on the subject, could care less if someone called me nutty or whatever word they chose to use.

[snooper2]

34. I would say a good chunk of them are...most people just give it lip service

stupid people have pasted agnostics and atheists as demons for hundreds of years, so those titles don't like to be taken by many.

Most people understand religion is bullshit, but are you going to be the one person in the classroom to say so? Bandwagon affect, fear of isolation, etc. are why different people say "yeah, god, jesabus, Rah Rah Rah"...

You can see in polls year after year their numbers going down though. Now it's becoming more cool to just say "I'm not X religion, I'm just "spiritual, mkay, whatever LOL"


Also, I would say that the ones making a buck off religion know it's bullshit and are phonies. But it pays good! Just ask the Catholic Church!

[el_bryanto]

36. "Most people understand religion is bullshit."

There is is.

Bryant

[snooper2]

37. I should have added "In the Western World"

Most folks in the Middle East actually follow what their holy book says.


When was the last time you saw a news report of a good christian family coming home from church and shooting the neighbor across the street for working on a Sunday?

[el_bryanto]

38. If you think that's what the Bible requires than you really don't know anything nt

[hrmjustin]

39. I was shocked by that as well.

[snooper2]

41. This is getting interesting but I have to go meet a friend to play Golden Tee

just do this..


go to www.google.com

search for-

stupid things the bible says to do




I'll be back later

Pelican Grove Maybe?

[Gore1FL]

43. How do you choose which commandments to follow? n/t

[el_bryanto]

44. There's no commandment that requires you to summarily execute your neighbors

for failing to go to church.

Bryant

[Gore1FL]

47. You might want to re-read Exodus and Numbers. n/t

Edited to correct book of the Bible. I thought it was Leviticus, but actually it was Exodus and Numbers.

[el_bryanto]

49. Point me to the scripture and I'll look it up.

[Gore1FL]

53. OK

Exodus 31:13-17 ESV /

“You are to speak to the people of Israel and say, ‘Above all you shall keep my Sabbaths, for this is a sign between me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I, the Lord, sanctify you. You shall keep the Sabbath, because it is holy for you. Everyone who profanes it shall be put to death. Whoever does any work on it, that soul shall be cut off from among his people. Six days shall work be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of solemn rest, holy to the Lord. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day shall be put to death. Therefore the people of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, observing the Sabbath throughout their generations, as a covenant forever. It is a sign forever between me and the people of Israel that in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested and was refreshed.’”

Numbers 15:32-36 ESV /

While the people of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man gathering sticks on the Sabbath day. And those who found him gathering sticks brought him to Moses and Aaron and to all the congregation. They put him in custody, because it had not been made clear what should be done to him. And the Lord said to Moses, “The man shall be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp.” And all the congregation brought him outside the camp and stoned him to death with stones, as the Lord commanded Moses.

[el_bryanto]

55. OK you've made your point

I'll go start killing my neighbors when I don't see them going to church next sunday. Thanks for opening my eyes.

Fuckin' atheists.

Bryant

[BlueStreak]

58. Don't blame us for what YOUR BOOK tells YOU to do.

[el_bryanto]

60. I blame you for being so stupid and unengaged

That you think this is a good argument against believers.

Bryant

[Gore1FL]

89. It's a worse argument to suggest your Holy book doesn't say things that it says.

I found many parts of your Holy book offensive, too. I quit following it altogether and embraced logic.

[Gore1FL]

88. Not my religion. I rejected it long ago. Don't blame me for it's content. n/t

[hrmjustin]

46. Good question. to me I follow what makes sense and what I think comes from God.

[Gore1FL]

54. Letting your conscience be your guide is an excellent approach.

It's what I do, too.

[brewens]

35. I know I don't know so I also know they don't know. I'll find out when I need to.

As long as I've lived a good life and been kind to people, I doubt I'll have much trouble, without hardly ever setting foot in a church.

[hrmjustin]

7. What an offensive post!

[FSogol]

12. How is Bluestreak's post offensive?

[hrmjustin]

14. 3rd paragraph.

[FSogol]

17. Still don't see what you are getting offended about. n/t

[hrmjustin]

22. Saying believers are not being true.

[FSogol]

25. Didn't she say, in her opinion and almost everyone?

I've known plenty of Church goers who fit Bluestreak's description perfectly.

[hrmjustin]

28. who is she to speak for them?

[FSogol]

30. Did she say she was speaking for you? She stated an opinion.

[hrmjustin]

31. Yes and I found it offensive.

[FSogol]

32. Say hi to everyone at the "Church for the Perpetually Outraged" next Sunday for me.

[hrmjustin]

33. I am Episcopalian so I will miss their services.

[Gore1FL]

45. Not true to reality or to their religion typically.

The Bible conflicts with reality and believers pick and choose what to believe and what to follow based on their non-religious morality.

[hrmjustin]

48. I follow what I think is divinely inspired.

[Vashta Nerada]

64. Your post sums up what church is about.

Thanks for sharing, and sorry about your loss.

[SCVDem]

40. And that my friends

Is why religion and belief should remain a personal matter only discussed among like minded individuals.

I personally find prostyletizing offensive since it calls the other persons belief into question, whether one believes or not.

Christians offend me because they beat you over the head with their bible saying they are commanded to go forth and piss people off.

Generally, no one attacks a quiet religion. It's when they tell others how to live their are problems!

Can I get an Amen?!

[BlueStreak]

57. I can't remember the last time I heard anybody complain about

Buddhists. I'm not great with history, but as far as I know, Buddhists aren't big on cutting off other people's heads or persecuting other people if they don't believe in "true Buddhist things". They are in it for their own personal vision.

On this basis, I find Scientology a lot less offensive and harmful than any of the Abrahamic religions.

[SCVDem]

66. That's usually my line.

Buddhists, Shintos or even the Native Americans and their reverance of natural things which sustain them.

The main point of most religions, looking at you Mormons, is to build up their numbers. Thus all the anti abortion and birth control crap.

How 'bout them Shakers? See what can happen?

[Vashta Nerada]

63. Yep. Pretty much.

K&R

[Glassunion]

68. Yeah!

DU takes one more step deeper into the sewer.

I mean, fuck people who have faith... Right? I mean they are just delusional... Right?

That's what we are all about, us Democrats... Shitting on the faith of others... Right?

Coexisting is bullshit... Right?

We should just cut the subtlety, and come right out and say it like it is... If you are a person of faith, the Democratic party would like to serve your delusional ass some walking papers. However, in order to appear more gentle and tolerant, we just post pictures making fun of your faith and hide behind snide humor that insults our perceived level of your intelligence.

Posts like this make DU suck.

[Scuba]

69. I'll pass your comments along to the Episcopalian Minister who sent me the graphic!

[Glassunion]

70. Cool story bro.

[Scuba]

71. She's my sister.

[Glassunion]

72. Neat!

[BlueStreak]

78. I'm curious why she is in the ministry

She probably isn't at liberty to speak completely honestly about this, one might imagine.

I have always found this church a very odd blend. They seem to be relatively progressive (ordaining women, not hating on gays, etc.) yet its ceremonies/liturgy are almost as traditional as the Catholics. Like Unitarians who just happen to enjoy incense or something.

In my experience it most certainly is not a high pressure church (as in "Gawod is calling everyone to fall on his knees and pray or else be damned to hell&quot . They are much more likely to talk about each person's "own personal spiritual journey on this earth".

Would it be fair to say your sister is very high on service and comfort to the congregation and the community?

[Scuba]

84. I'm not aware of any reluctance on her part as to speaking honestly.

Your last statement is certainly true. She's also even more liberal than I.

[cbayer]

81. I would be interested to know if your sister has seen this thread

and, if so, what she thinks of the responses.

I am also curious as to why you chose to post this in GD (as opposed to Religion or Atheist/Agnostic Group).

[Scuba]

83. I sent her a link but don't know if she's seen it yet.

As for your second question, just laziness.

[cbayer]

86. Thanks. If she does see it, I would be interested in her response.

[Rex]

76. It exposes the truth about religion throughout history?

Yeah, heaven forbid we know anything about history.

[Glassunion]

80. Exactly. And the best way to expose truth is through intolerance.

Because a thoughtful post about the truth of religion throughout history that may spark a cordial conversation, well... is just silly and a waste of time.

Instead it's far better to demean those we disagree with.

[Gore1FL]

90. Faith is believing things without justification. That has elements of delusion to it. n/t

F

[Glassunion]

92. Which is exactly why those of us with an obviously superior intellect must

Point this out and ridicule their faith as mumbo jumbo.

[Gore1FL]

93. Religion is harmful. It needs to be called out.

I don't think believing in a religion makes one less intellectual. One of the greatest human minds ever, Sir Isaac Newton, was a Christian.

In the meantime, religions waste finite resources spreading the failed attempts of iron-age peasants to understand the universe as truth.

[hrmjustin]

91. Love the insults by some in this thread.

[Sissyk]

94. Lock

Discuss politics, issues, and current events. No posts about Israel/Palestine, religion, guns, showbiz, or sports unless there is really big news. No conspiracy theories. No whining about DU.