Pope Francis is warned there may be consequences

[Chrom]

I laughed the other day when I saw that billionaire Ken Langone, stalwart defender of the oppressed and downtrodden rich, had complained to Catholic officials about Pope Francis' commentary about the excesses of modern capitalism. He even went so far as to warn Cardinal Timothy Dolan that certain unnamed wealthy might stop contributing to the church if such commentary continued. In other words ... the pope has been put on notice: Keep talking like this, and consequences will ensue.

The inspiration for Langone's complaint was clearly the recent "Evangelii Gaudium" issued by Francis, in which the new pope condemned an economic system in which "everything comes under the laws of competition and the survival of the fittest, where the powerful feed upon the powerless." Francis also noted the repeated failure of "trickle-down theories, which assume that economic growth, encouraged by a free market, will inevitably succeed in bringing about greater justice and inclusiveness in the world."

"This opinion, which has never been confirmed by the facts, expresses a crude and naïve trust in the goodness of those wielding economic power and in the sacralized workings of the prevailing economic system," Francis wrote.

"While the earnings of a minority are growing exponentially, so too is the gap separating the majority from the prosperity enjoyed by those happy few," Francis observed, using words that perhaps struck too close to home for Langone. "This imbalance is the result of ideologies which defend the absolute autonomy of the marketplace and financial speculation. Consequently, they reject the right of states, charged with vigilance for the common good, to exercise any form of control. A new tyranny is thus born, invisible and often virtual, which unilaterally and relentlessly imposes its own laws and rules."

http://www.ajc.com/weblogs/jay-bookman/2014/jan/03/pope-francis-warned-there-may-be-consequences/

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

1. If the Pope is speaking for God, I hardly think he's the one to worry about consequences.

Seems to me Langone and his ilk ought to start worrying about their immortal fucking souls - those are some consequences, dude.

[cascadiance]

4. Mary Antoinette and her missing head are twisting in her grave when hearing Langone speak...

I think he's forgotten a lot of history of who ultimately will pay the consequences...

[1StrongBlackMan]

8. I was knida thinking ...

"No weapons formed against you ..."

Further, it's a dangerous game Langone is playing ... what if the threat doesn't work? He stops giving and he stops having influence over the message; just when the message is focusing on the poor.

[freshwest]

21. The days of equating everything on the planet as mere profit must end, and soon.

Langone is speaking about buying influence, buying and selling the rights of others, sold to the highest bidder without those who are not able to bid, treating life as a commodity.

Life is much more than that, and Francis is doing the right thing to remind them of it.

Just as Obama has done with the ACA to prove that we are equal.

Great ideals are being presented, but those too invested in the market don't understand that there are many things more important.

[Swede Atlanta]

2. ROFL.......

This man obviously does not know his place..... the Pope is the head of the Catholic Church, is infallible and runs a largely autocratic organization.

The Pope was not criticizing capitalism per se, although the words of Jesus as allegedly reflected in the Bible would suggest he should, but unbridled "greed-driven" capitalism that believes if you give more to the rich benefits will "trickle down" to the rest. It is well known this model does NOT work.

But if Langone is a Catholic and wants to take on the Pope, all the more power to him. The Pope has the power, I believe, to condemn this man to hell. If I were him I would be careful what I wish for.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

5. The Pope doesn't, by himself, have the power to send anyone to hell

(assuming you believe in such a thing in the first place), but when he is speaking ex cathedra, that is, in an official capacity, what he says is supposed to be the word of God, and therefore infallible. Since Evangelii Gaudium was, I believe, such a statement, that would have been God speaking. And if God says greed-driven capitalism is bad, and if guys like Langone continue to disobey God by refusing to give up greed-driven capitalism, well...

Does it feel a little hot, Mr. Langone? Is that sulfur I smell?

[Bluenorthwest]

6. Evangelii Gaudium was not delivered 'ex cathedra', nothing has been since 1950 and only about 7 time

in history.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

7. Interesting. Still, I assume it does carry some weight.

I was under the impression that any statement with an official title, like Evangelii Gaudium, was an ex cathedra pronouncement, but apparently not. Thanks for the info.

Maybe the Pope will be inspired to go all ex cathedra on their capitalist asses if he gets wound up enough about this issue.

[TommyCelt]

27. Quite right...

When you're the leader of a billion+ member faith community, your statements DO tend to carry some weight (whether folks like it or not). But the previous poster is correct...it was not a "from the chair" statement carrying the full authority of the pontificate.

Ex Cathedra pronounouncements are few and far between, and I wouldn't expect many/any from Pope Francis; an unambiguous, absolute ruling leaves no "wiggle room" for his successors. Francis seems to recognize that views and understanding of issues can change.

[Swede Atlanta]

22. Peeps, whether the Pope has the ability to condemn someone to hell or not...

the bottom line is as follows

The leader of a faith community of some several billion people has said that greed as excessively characterized by a belief in trickle-down economics that shows no respect or compassion for the "least among us" is a grave sin and must be corrected

If you are an adherent to that faith tradition the words of the holy father are sacrosanct and are as if they had been uttered by God himself. So protestations and challenges place you possibly at odds with God you know where that gets you.....yes....purgatory watching reruns of Duck Dynasty for millions of years.

[Bluenorthwest]

42. The Bible repeatedly says only God can judge a person. To claim that a man who rails against gay

people has that power is pretty offensive, both Scripturally and secularly speaking. Duck Dynasty has the same views of gay people as Francis, both make horrific accusations about us, both claim to speak for a God whose laws they personally ignore. Same thing.
Jesus said 'sell all you own, give it to the poor and follow me' but Francis is holder of a vast treasure, billions he controls, he does not give it away, nor does he give it to the poor. So his message is a watered down, accountability free version of what Jesus actually told him to do.
The fact is that Francis did not make this or any pronouncement 'ex Cathedra' which is the term used for 'infallible pronouncements'. Such statements are exceedingly rare in his Church.
Facts do matter. The anti gay facts, the facts about statements, the facts about the child abuse, the vast wealth of the Vatican, the fact that they are opposed to birth control, condoms, and choice all count, all of these facts matter very much.
The bottom line is Francis is a bigoted human with absolutely no powers or standing not given to each and everyone under the actual Christian texts. Jesus says no one needs an intercessor, but that all have direct access to the divine. And only God sits in the seat of judgment, not humans.
Claiming that an anti gay cleric can condemn others to hell is vicious bigotry. Those doing this need to consider their actions. Saying that about Pat Robertson would be the same thing. Wrong and mean.

[Cleita]

17. He can excommunicate him in a public and embarrassing way though.

That means he could be cut off from social and other interactions with his cardinal and bishop buddies, not to mention being turned away from entering any church or cathedral. I doubt if the Pope would do such an extreme act but he could.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

24. I'd like to see that. The whole bell, book and candle thing.

"Wherefore in the name of God the All-powerful, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, of the Blessed Peter, Prince of the Apostles, and of all the saints, in virtue of the power which has been given us of binding and loosing in Heaven and on earth, we deprive Ken Langone himself and all his accomplices and all his abettors of the Communion of the Body and Blood of Our Lord, we separate him from the society of all Christians, we exclude him from the bosom of our Holy Mother the Church in Heaven and on earth, we declare him excommunicated and anathematized and we judge him condemned to eternal fire with Satan and his angels and all the reprobate, so long as he will not burst the fetters of the demon, do penance and satisfy the Church; we deliver him to Satan to mortify his body, that his soul may be saved on the day of judgment."

Has a nice ring to it.

[CTyankee]

33. Does it ever!

I wish I could tell people off that way...

[Manifestor_of_Light]

41. Wow! That is very impressive language!!

I should read up on this.

So some rich asswipe doesn't like it because the Pope says we should do the good stuff that Jesus said to do. Guess he ignores the Sermon on the Mount and the parts about feeding the hungry and clothing the naked and comforting those who mourn & so forth.

[MFrohike]

30. Not really

Excommunication is separation from the sacraments, not the community. The excommunicated are still obligated to attend Mass, which means the church cannot turn them away.

[Cleita]

34. Perhaps you are right, but I have seen priests turn away

excommunicated Catholics from Mass (divorced and remarried e.g.) when I lived in South America. Maybe they shouldn't have but they did.

[MFrohike]

36. They were wrong

I don't doubt it happens, but they're in the wrong. A priest who does that should be disciplined.

[Cleita]

37. This one guy also used to turn women away from mass if he didn't like how they

dressed. He was a Spaniard from some strict order that I don't remember, but their discipline didn't even allow them mirrors and other small comforts in their residence. I don't know how they shaved.

[MFrohike]

39. Useless

Unless someone is half or more naked, the priest really has no business policing dress codes. The fact he doesn't like something really isn't relevant to his job. He should have worried about his own vanity, as evidenced by the ridiculous strictness of the order.

As for shaving, I regularly do it without a mirror. I have a routine of how I do it and rely on touch to check for missed spots.

[Bluenorthwest]

3. What Dolan should be worried about instead of money, from Andrew Sullivan:"

"You know where this man is coming from when he dismissed the organization SNAP – Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests – as having “no credibility“. The records from his old diocese in Milwaukee show he authorized pay-offs to child-rapist priests to encourage them to leave the ministry. (In the Catholic hierarchy, you don’t report rapists to the police; you eventually offer them financial incentives to leave.) Nonetheless, at the time, Dolan insisted that these charges were “false, preposterous and unjust,” whatever the records or even the spokesman for his old diocese said. Now, in another piece of stellar reporting, Laurie Goodstein adds more context to this man’s record:


Files released by the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Milwaukee on Monday reveal that in 2007, Cardinal Timothy F. Dolan, then the archbishop there, requested permission from the Vatican to move nearly $57 million into a cemetery trust fund to protect the assets from victims of clergy sexual abuse who were demanding compensation."

http://dish.andrewsullivan.com/2013/07/02/the-final-busting-of-cardinal-dolans-lies/

Odd that the article in the OP frames Dolan as some good guy when he is a known liar serving money hot and hard.

[Live and Learn]

10. I think part of the problem is that the priesthood is like a family.

And family members don't want to believe their loved ones are guilty of crimes.

Plus, it is not in their nature to report to police but to offer forgiveness when permissible in the form of penance. That is the concept of confession.

I don't think we can just assume they were all liars serving money.

[Bluenorthwest]

44. Is that how your family is? Mine sure as hell is not like that. From the NY Times:

"Files released by the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Milwaukee on Monday reveal that in 2007, Cardinal Timothy F. Dolan, then the archbishop there, requested permission from the Vatican to move nearly $57 million into a cemetery trust fund to protect the assets from victims of clergy sexual abuse who were demanding compensation.
Cardinal Dolan, now the archbishop of New York, has emphatically denied seeking to shield church funds as the archbishop of Milwaukee from 2002 to 2009. He reiterated in a statement Monday that these were “old and discredited attacks.”

However, the files contain a 2007 letter to the Vatican in which he explains that by transferring the assets, “I foresee an improved protection of these funds from any legal claim and liability.” The Vatican approved the request in five weeks, the files show. "
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/02/us/dolan-sought-vatican-permission-to-shield-assets.html

Facts matter. Dolan is the sole source for the article in the OP. He is a known, proven liar. It is established that he lies to protect money, assets and future incomes. Thus his word is a dubious testimony. Because facts matter.

[Live and Learn]

59. Actually most people and families would do everything in their power to protect their assets.

Would your family just hand over everything it had? Corporations are notorious for protecting there assets.

I am not trying to defend Dolan. I don't even know enough about him to say one way or another. I just don't like jumping to conclusions about people's motives.

[lark]

20. Not odd at all

Dolan protects the rich and powerful, showing no compassion for the downtrodden or victims, that's very much in line with right wing dogma, so therefore he must be a good guy. Right?

[jtuck004]

9. Huh. Big star, 3 wise men, and a baby Langone in a manger...

I remember when the pope used to speak to God, and then the people. Now Langone thinks HE speaks to the pope, and the pope speaks to the people, and I am guessing God is not even in his picture.

If the Catholics don't make him pay for this, they will lose even more credibility than they already have. I hope they don't think his words are irrelevant, or should be just laughed at, because he has a lot of money to influence things with outside of the church.

Then again, maybe he is more important. I'm sure Catholics will disagree, but he directly controls the lives of a lot of people who listen to him every day, vs once on an occasional Sunday. And if one ignores the very real effect that has on a human brain and behavior, they are just sticking their head in the sand.

He won't worry, and neither would I, about his immortal soul. There is no such thing - it's just pie in the sky. But there is such a thing as making it hell on earth for people like us with less money for the time we have left.

He needs to find out what his billions can buy him.

[WinstonSmith4740]

11. Isn't this the same jerk who perjured himself in his divorce?

I remember reading about this during the campaign...he, along with Mitt Romney, testified under oath about the value of Home Depot stock, undervaluing it to about 10 cents on the dollar, so he could screw over his ex-wife on the settlement. BTW, she then turned around and founded Lowe's, which thankfully gives me the ability to never have to walk into a Home Depot again.

So if I'm reading this right, this asshole Langone is talking about was willing to write a big check to restore a building, but won't raise finger or donate a dime to someone who needs help. Francis gets Jesus' teachings, and it's making the fat cats who have been calling themselves "Christians" look like the greedy, selfish idiots they are. Couldn't happen to a more deserving group of people.

After what happened to the last pope who advocated for the poor (John Paul I), I just hope Francis is watching his back.

[QuestForSense]

13. Yep. The same greedy, selfish idiot. Oh, and "Christian."

[Chrom]

18. this is one entitled asshole

check this out:

As a leader of the New York Stock Exchange, he was largely responsible for the scandalous overpayment of his friend Richard Grasso, the exchange president who received nearly $190 million in deferred compensation when he stepped down. Although New York's highest court eventually upheld Grasso's pay package, it was a perfect example of the unaccountable, self-serving greed of Wall Street's elite.

Anything but repentant following the revelation and repudiation of the Grasso deal by NYSE executives, Langone told Forbes magazine in 2004: "They got the wrong f---ing guy. I'm nuts, I'm rich, and, boy, do I love a fight. I'm going to make them s--- in their pants. When I get through with these f---ing captains of industry, they're going to wish they were in a Cuisinart — at high speed."
http://www.noozhawk.com/article/joe_conason_rich_catholics_threaten_pope_francis_20140102

[Schema Thing]

28. no seriously? HD founder's ex-wife founded Lowes??

[WinstonSmith4740]

55. Should have checked...

that particular urban legend first. Here's Lowe's history http://www.fundinguniverse.com/company-histories/lowe-s-companies-inc-history/

Couldn't find anything about anyone buying it in the last few years. Regardless, I'm glad it exists because it still gives me a reason to not got to Home Depot. I remember the first time I saw them bring down a long established hardware/general store business in North Long Beach about 25 years ago. Drove them out of business, and then left the area with-in a year later.

[Enthusiast]

31. + A shit load! nt

[MurrayDelph]

12. So, Dolan is being told

"nice reconstruction project you have here. Shame if anything were to happen to it."

In other news, Home Depot is going to start selling needle-eye enlargers.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

14. CALL CONGRESS RIGHT FUCKING NOW!1!!!!1!!!!!

IMPEACH THE POPE1!!!!!!!1!!!!!

[rustbeltvoice]

15. God or Mammon

Last edited Fri Jan 3, 2014, 10:49 PM - Edit history (1)

(i posted this on an earlier thread)

Christ was a logician. As Christ logically taught we have only one master: it is God or Mammon. This principle is even taught in some business schools, in that, they acknowledge one can not concentrate on two demands at once. One will be primary.

No man can serve two masters. For either he will hate the one, and love the other: or he will sustain the one, and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon. -- Matthew vi. 23.

===========

This is not the first time we have encountered the threat of not funding work on New York's cathedral. These Catholic churches in this country of the pre-WWII eras were built by the pennies of the poor, and by the labor of the poor themselves. This threat of the rich not to ante up, in one respect, acknowledges the only worth they have to the rest of the community is their wealth. In another, it is a form of extortion, do the things and say the things we want you to do, or we keep the gold.

When people of a modest means complain to a bishop about how they are treated by the church, the bishop doesn't usually kiss their boo-boos. Here in Cleveland, we have an obnoxious, mean-spirited tyrant. Many of us are not surprised by the mistreatment of us by the world, but we expect better from Mother Church. We damn well are not keen on the idea of the church for the rich, and another for the poor.

I remember an old joke: a miserable miser dies and meets St. Peter outside the gate, and Peter as porter of heaven, is also bookkeeper. Peter looks at the account ledger, and says, "it does not look like you did much good for your fellow man while on earth". The miserable miser says, "I gave a bum two dollars once". Peter reaches in his pocket for a $2 bill, and says, "Here is your two bucks. Go to Hell".

[SCVDem]

16. I think the Pope should appoint

A Spanish Inquisition to look into these rich people making these statements!

Because after all, ................................................... (You know!)

[Bluenorthwest]

47. The Spanish Inquistion existed to enforce orthodoxy upon the Muslims and Jews who had been forced

to covert or leave the country under the laws of the time and place. Not really something to wish for.

[SCVDem]

51. Okay, I should have added these

Monty Python reference that "Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!" and a

I thought it went without saying. My apologies if I offended anyone.

[GoneOffShore]

54. I would have said apologies to the sarcasm and humor impaired.

Of course, some people just don't have the cultural references, unfortunately.

[dem in texas]

19. I wish more Christian Ministers would speak the same message

I never have understood why more Christian ministers have not spoken out about the conditions of the poor and how the politicians are treating them. My guess is they are afraid the rich dudes will stop putting money in the collection plate.

[aggiesal]

23. Back when Jesus was 30 years old . . .

Wealthy romans warned Jesus Christ that if he continued to help the poor, their donations would dry up.

"Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."

I guess the wealthy believe they'll just buy their way into heaven.

[polichick]

56. Heaven is a gated community, right?

[MisterP]

25. consequences: they'll never be the same! nt

[abakan]

26. I'm sure the Pope is shaking in his robes...

In fact it is, Langone, who should be shaking. All the Pope has to do is to suggest that maybe Catholics might want to support those businesses who support the (Churches), Popes position on greed. In effect calling for a Catholic boycott of his business...
He may not care about his immortal soul but he cares a great deal about his profit margin....

[Octafish]

29. Child Molestations is OK. But talk about redistributing wealth downward and it's all-out war.

Shows what really motivates the banksters and their owners.

[Bluenorthwest]

46. That about sums up Tim Dolan's actions as well.

Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan of New York authorized payments of as much as $20,000 to sexually abusive priests as an incentive for them to agree to dismissal from the priesthood when he was the archbishop of Milwaukee. Questioned at the time about the news that one particularly notorious pedophile cleric had been given a “payoff” to leave the priesthood, Cardinal Dolan, then the archbishop, responded that such an inference was “false, preposterous and unjust.”

"False, preposterous and unjust" is quite a statement. New evidence from the records, however, show Dolan was at the very meeting the payoffs were agreed to (just as the current Pope was at a meeting that allowed a child rapist to go on to assault and abuse more children). Dolan may recall that lying violates one of the ten commandments (which, for some mystifying reason did not include "Thou Shalt Not Have Non-Procreative Sex&quot . Maybe there's some exculpatory explanation for what appears to be, on its face, a bald-faced and aggressive lie.
http://dish.andrewsullivan.com/2012/05/31/cardinal-dolan-brazen-liar/

[Enthusiast]

32. Kicked and recommended a whole bunch.....nt

[Frustratedlady]

35. I second that emotion.

Even the non-Catholics will be on the Pope's side. The 1% will find out their money doesn't buy them all they think it does. I know I'm certainly not impressed and I'm not alone.

There isn't enough popcorn to last through this show.

[LadyHawkAZ]

38. You know... I don't like the pope

But right now...

GO POPE!

[BarackTheVote]

40. I love Dolan's response /sarcasm

It went beyond what's reported in the OP article of just trying to placate Langone by telling him God loves rich people AND poor people. CNBC actually reported he said, "Well, Ken, that would be a misunderstanding of the Holy Father's message." Longone then went on to claim the Pope wasn't talking about America. Dolan's the one who had better watch his ass. Contradicting the Pope? Watering down his message? I hope some kind of reprisal comes down from the Vatican--Excommunicated? Defrocked? Reassigned to the deepest, darkest parts of the Third World? This challenge, I hope, does not go unanswered.

[reformist2]

43. Cozying up to the rich is one of the biggest problem church leaders have.

Once again, we should be giving Pope Francis props for actually saying what truly "Christian" leaders need to be saying, and making many of his underlings squirm!

[Bluenorthwest]

45. This is a case of two liars, Ken and Tim, both established liars who lie about money and worse:

Files released by the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Milwaukee on Monday reveal that in 2007, Cardinal Timothy F. Dolan, then the archbishop there, requested permission from the Vatican to move nearly $57 million into a cemetery trust fund to protect the assets from victims of clergy sexual abuse who were demanding compensation.

Cardinal Dolan, now the archbishop of New York, has emphatically denied seeking to shield church funds as the archbishop of Milwaukee from 2002 to 2009. He reiterated in a statement Monday that these were “old and discredited attacks.”

However, the files contain a 2007 letter to the Vatican in which he explains that by transferring the assets, “I foresee an improved protection of these funds from any legal claim and liability.” The Vatican approved the request in five weeks, the files show."


http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/02/us/dolan-sought-vatican-permission-to-shield-assets.html


It amazes me that anyone would endorse Dolan, in any context, ever.

[47of74]

58. What I would love for Francis to do is to reassign ol' Timmy

If I were in the Pope's shoes Timmy would be spending the rest of his life working as a parish priest at St. Patrick's Church in Barrow, Alaska. Of course I would have advised him to take plenty of nice, warm clothing along too.

[spanone]

48. the 'good' catholic wealthy threatening to withhold funds....jesus wept

next, the pope wakes up with a horse head in his bed

[openfield]

49. You don't "warn" the Pope

In most of the world, I'd say all of it, it's the other way around.

[SCVDem]

57. Someone should also tell Faux

You've heard Stuart Varney go off on this, right? (Or Beck, Limpbutt, Hannity, et. al.)

Religion is fine to justify their own dogma, but let it turn on them and it's game on.

[tk2kewl]

50. I kinda think he gave Langone the big STFU with this speech:

“It is not a good strategy to be at the center of a sphere,” he said. “To understand we ought to move around, to see reality from various viewpoints. We ought to get used to thinking.”

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024272090

[SCVDem]

52. Not even the Mafia

Pushes around the Pope.

Am I right?

[treestar]

53. The Church as been rich for over 5 centuries

A few millionaires today not giving - drip in the bucket.