Senator Sanders comments on Snowden

[ProSense]

<...>

BLITZER: What about Snowden? Do you think that he committed a crime or he was simply a well-intentioned whistle-blower?

SANDERS: Well, I think what you have to look at is -- I think there is no question that he committed a crime, obviously. He violated his oath and he leaked information.

On the other hand, what you have to weigh that against is the fact that he has gone a very long way in educating the people of our country and the people of the world about the power of private agency in terms of their surveillance over people of this country, over foreign leaders, and what they are doing.

So, I think you got to weigh the two. My own belief is that I think, I would hope that the United States government could kind of negotiate some plea bargain with him, some form of clemency. I think it wouldn't be a good idea or fair to him to have to spend his entire remaining life abroad, not being able to come back to his country.

So I would hope that there's a price that he has to pay, but I hope it is not a long prison sentence or exile from his country.

BLITZER: You wouldn't give him clemency, though, and let him off scot-free?

SANDERS: No. BLITZER: All right, Senator, thanks very much for joining us.

<...>

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1401/06/sitroom.02.html

[MineralMan]

1. Civil disobedience comes with a potential price to pay.

The more important the act of civil disobedience, the higher the price might be. Willingness to accept that risk is part of the equation.

[solarhydrocan]

19. Price to pay for lying to Congress?

So far, zip. Nada. Nothing.

[MineralMan]

22. Total Non Sequitur.

I'm not talking about Flapper at all.

[solarhydrocan]

27. But I am. If Snowden has to pay a price what should happen

to one that broke his oath to tell the truth, and broke his oath to honor the Constitution from "enemies foreign and domestic"?

[MannyGoldstein]

29. The law must apply equally to all

Or it is a farce.

[Le Taz Hot]

2. Disappointing from Sanders.

I hope he's not doing this for political reasons.

[ProSense]

5. Speaking of

"I hope he's not doing this for political reasons."

..."political reasons."

A lucrative fight against ‘Big Brother’
http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/lucrative-fight-against-big-brother

Rand Paul Suggests Snowden And Clapper Share A Prison Cell
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024281235

[Le Taz Hot]

6. Feel free to argue your point directly.

I never read your links.

[ProSense]

7. Do you

"Feel free to argue your point directly. I never read your links."

..."read" my comments?

OK. Rand Paul is exploiting the situation for "political reasons." He believes Snowden should do jail time, and he's using a proposed lawsuit to collect names, email addresses, zip codes and donations.

Those are the details, but I have to say, the text provided in the previous comment should have been self-explanatory regarding "political reasons."

Still, hope that helps.

[ProSense]

8. Question:

"I never read your links."

...did you check the link in the OP to make sure that the text cited is actually at the link?

[wildbilln864]

3. what was Snowden's oath anyway btw?

[Whisp]

9. do we all have to take an oath not to steal?

brb, I'm going to the supermarket, oathless, to steal some juicy rib eye steaks. Have my back, will ya?

[justiceischeap]

10. This is the oath taken by federal employees

"I, (Name), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter. So help me God.”

[wildbilln864]

11. well that's what I thought it should be. Thank you.

And I feel he felt he was doing exactly that. Defending the Constitution.

[justiceischeap]

12. In theory, yes, in legal terms no.

Whether we like it or not, what the NSA is doing is legal, therefore, his speaking out about what was going on was illegal and against the Constitution. It's murky to say the least.

[ProSense]

13. It became

"Whether we like it or not, what the NSA is doing is legal, therefore, his speaking out about what was going on was illegal and against the Constitution. It's murky to say the least."

..."murky" when Snowden fled and went beyond simply questioning NSA overreach related to domestic surveillance.

NYT editor's blog: Snowden’s Questionable New Turn
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023034825

The recent NYT editorial suggested a plea deal to reduce "punishment."

<...>

Considering the enormous value of the information he has revealed, and the abuses he has exposed, Mr. Snowden deserves better than a life of permanent exile, fear and flight. He may have committed a crime to do so, but he has done his country a great service. It is time for the United States to offer Mr. Snowden a plea bargain or some form of clemency that would allow him to return home, face at least substantially reduced punishment in light of his role as a whistle-blower, and have the hope of a life advocating for greater privacy and far stronger oversight of the runaway intelligence community.

<...>

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/02/opinion/edward-snowden-whistle-blower.html

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024263422

[struggle4progress]

14. In Snowden's case, we are discussing Standard Form 312,

the CLASSIFIED INFORMATION NONDISCLOSURE AGREEMENT

Here's a discussion of the non-disclosure obligations that are imposed on security cleared personnel, including the statutory bases

[bananas]

20. And that conflicts with his oath to defend the constitution

any sane person would know that his oath to defend the constitution would take precedence over a non-disclosure agreement.

[struggle4progress]

21. That's a nice story -- but since Snowden first headed to China, where Chinese press reported

immediately that he was providing them with lists of Chinese URLs of interest to the NSA, a fact had instant impact on the Chinese-USA summit held immediately afterwards, perhaps that story could be a mere fairy tale

[ProSense]

4. Kick! n/t

[moondust]

15. Maybe intent matters.

My understanding, potentially wrong, is that he took the job at Booz Allen with malicious intent: to steal documents and knowingly break his oath by publicizing them. In other words, it's not like he stumbled upon some earth-shaking conspiracy in the course of performing his duties in good faith. No, he took the job in bad faith. For what? Revenge? Fame? Cash in on book and movie contracts? Libertarian hatred of "big gubmint"?

[Adrahil]

16. Not to mention....

... in addition to his disclosure of domestic activities, which some could argue is legitimate "whistle blowing," he has released, and continues to release classified information about legitimate foreign intelligence operations.

No clemency.

[NCTraveler]

17. I find myself agreeing with Bernie more than any other politician.

Just as I do here. Very sensible man.

[ProSense]

23. Well, agreeing with Senator Sanders

"I find myself agreeing with Bernie more than any other politician."

...on this issue likely means you're an "NSA apologist and fascist tool."

[ProSense]

18. Kick! n/t

[Number23]

24. 55% of Americans believe that Snowden should be charged and jailed

http://www.washingtonpost.com/page/2010-2019/WashingtonPost/2013/11/21/National-Politics/Polling/question_12503.xml?uuid=CPizkFJqEeOe5iWACG2CVA

It will be the rare politician that supports him going jail free and Sanders is no fool. Clemency appears to be his best offer.

[cherokeeprogressive]

25. "...negotiate some plea bargain with him, some form of clemency." I agree ProSense. Good call. n/t

[baldguy]

26. So, is Bernie Sanders an authoritarian, fascist DINO, now?

[BlueCaliDem]

28. This will not make Snowden supporters who respect Sen. Sanders, happy.

But there's no circumventing the truth: Snowden broke the law, sold out the United States, and should be shown NO clemency.

[riderinthestorm]

30. I'm a Snowden supporter and love Bernie. I think his remarks are just fine

"Plea bargain and some form of clemency".

Why would you think Snowden supporters wouldn't find that reasonable?

[BlueCaliDem]

31. Because from what I've read so far

they want 100% clemency. They believe Snowden's done nothing wrong. In fact, they believe he's some sort of hero.

I believe he has done something wrong, but unlike Snowden, I don't believe he should suffer what he advocated "leakers" to suffer should they be caught back in 2009. Under Duhbya.

However, I believe he should serve time for breaking his Classified Information Non-Disclosure Agreement.

[riderinthestorm]

32. My goal is 100% clemency but realistically he'll be somewhere in Bernie's range.

I'd be comfortable with community service, some kind of negotiated slap on the wrist.

Obama isn't going to be able to grant 100% clemency. I'm realistic about that so do the token thing that Bernie outlines.

Snowden really has done Obama a favor if he'd recognize this gift horse. The NSA was/is out of control. Even Obama admits it. Grab the international discussion by the horns and lead on the issue!

[ProSense]

33. Senator Sanders

"I'd be comfortable with community service, some kind of negotiated slap on the wrist. "

...isn't proposing "community service." I doubt that's going to happen.

So I would hope that there's a price that he has to pay, but I hope it is not a long prison sentence or exile from his country.

BLITZER: You wouldn't give him clemency, though, and let him off scot-free?

SANDERS: No. BLITZER: All right, Senator, thanks very much for joining us.

[BlueCaliDem]

37. It appears that Senator Sanders

is advocating for some sort of prison sentence for Snowden, which surprises me since he's a bona fide socialist. But he doesn't want it to be a long prison sentence, which is fair and in keeping with his socialist views and bona fides.

I guess he knows Snowden had gone too far as well.

I would be comfortable with Senator Sanders' proposal of some kind of prison sentence, but not a long one. But I don't agree that Snowden should be given clemency. Not in a million years.

[FrodosPet]

40. Socialists would never spy on capitalists?

I am no expert on socialism. I tend to not be a fan of the concept, and especially not of of the ways it has been attempted as a singular national economic and political philosophy, but I am not completely dismissing it. I want to make sure I understand this.

It seems to me one of the most difficult parts of governing under socialism would be in dealing with internal enemies. The reality is that all of America is not going to wake up one morning and say "We are all socialists now! That's freakin' awesome!".

Almost every significant size government, of whatever philosophy, will over time embrace authoritarianism. It is repugnant to a freedom seeking spirit, but in practical terms - it gets stuff done. When you work for the government, your job is to know what is going on in order to get stuff done.

I am convinced that the extreme threat posed by militant anti-socialists would inevitably lead to the resurrection of any domestic intelligence activities which might be originally curtailed in the transition to progressive socialism.

But from my understanding, your contention is that socialists are opposed to widespread surveillance based primarily on socialism, and not on other philosophical reasons which are only tangentially related to socialism?

[BlueCaliDem]

42. Never made that claim nor was it my intention if that's your preception

after reading my post.

My argument was about Senator Sanders' well-known view (and dislike) of the unfair American private, for-profit prison system, and that it surprises me that he would even mention "that there's a price that he (Snowden) has to pay, but I hope it is not a long prison sentence."

If Senator Sanders believes that Snowden should even go to prison, considering his knowledge and dislike of our unfair prison system, that says something.

Bona fide socialists don't care for for the unfair American prison system because it's counterproductive for the people. Socialism is all about empowering and creating an equitable society for all people, not just the ones who have money to pay for anything and everything they want.

The American prison system is unequivocally unfair, and the ridiculously long prison sentences that are routinely imposed on people in this country are too long, extremely unhelpful, and provide zero-rehabilitation - just to name a few.

I'm not a socialist, but I agree with them that we need a serious overhaul of our current gulag-style prison system. Yet, in the absence of that reform coming to American anytime soon, it just took me aback that Senator Sanders would even mention any prison sentence for Snowden. He must know something we apparently don't.

[Douglas Carpenter]

34. you know, one does not have to be a lockstep robotic supporter of ANYONE - be it Obama, Sanders,

or Snowden for that matter. I think most people recognize that a sitting United States Senator such as Sen. Sanders or Sen. Wyden or whoever cannot openly advocate breaking the law even if in the same breath they recognize all the good that was accomplished for the cause of freedom by one particular high profile law breaker.

It is actually possible to celebrate the good that Sen. Sanders fights for while also recognizing the position that he is in. It is possible to recognize that Edward Snowden is not a saint and that he did break the law and he certainly doesn't have the same political philosophy as myself - but he also as recognize as Sen. Sanders says," he has gone a very long way in educating the people of our country and the people of the world about the power of private agency in terms of their surveillance over people of this country, over foreign leaders, and what they are doing. "

There is not a political leader or counterculture hero or iconoclastic figure I have EVER come across that I have EVER felt obliged to always agree with on every single point and robotically change my own principles to conform with them. I have never felt toward anyone that I am obliged to either abandon them or unconditionally support them - be it Obama, Sanders or certainly Edward Snowden.

[ProSense]

35. Thanks for sharing that. n/t

[ronnie624]

36. Very well said.

[Cha]

38. Thank you, ProSense..

Snowden committed the crime and has been freaking leaking all over the world. If he doesn't want to spend his entire life in exile then give himself up. No Scot Free for you, Snowden.. so sayeth Senator Bernie Sanders.

[ProSense]

39. :) n/t

[el_bryanto]

41. Seems like a measured response

I like Mr. Sanders.

Bryant