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Jesus Malverde

(10,274 posts)
Wed Jan 15, 2014, 02:11 AM Jan 2014

Indian Police Hold 15 Men for Gang Raping Danish Tourist

Delhi Police detained 15 men for gang raping a Danish national in a part of India’s capital popular with backpackers, the latest incident exposing the dangers for women in the world’s second-most populous country.

The 51-year-old woman was raped at knife-point by a group of men between 5 p.m. and 8 p.m. yesterday in Paharganj neighborhood, Deepak Mishra, special commissioner of the police, said in a phone interview. The area is within 3 kilometers (1.9 miles) of the presidential palace and contains many hotels.

“Police have identified the men involved in the crime and are conducting further investigation,” Mishra said.

The allegation comes amid an unprecedented debate about sexual violence in India triggered by the gang rape and murder of a student in New Delhi in December 2012. Even after lawmakers imposed stricter penalties for men who assault women and established fast-track courts in the aftermath of that attack, India is struggling to tame male attitudes that leave ordinary women vulnerable to attack.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-01-15/police-detain-15-men-for-gang-raping-tourist-in-central-delhi.html

70 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Indian Police Hold 15 Men for Gang Raping Danish Tourist (Original Post) Jesus Malverde Jan 2014 OP
"...Male attitudes that leave ordinary women vulnerable to attack?" XemaSab Jan 2014 #1
It's very revealing. redqueen Jan 2014 #19
the girl that was raped and then burned to death, a male politician tried to make excuses JI7 Jan 2014 #29
For officials on India to have behaved as they did after a diplomat with limited immunity redqueen Jan 2014 #33
SHE HAD A SLAVE! XemaSab Jan 2014 #55
I'm heading that way myself XemaSab Jan 2014 #31
Ha! redqueen Jan 2014 #36
You have no idea XemaSab Jan 2014 #56
That really stuck out for me too. Matariki Jan 2014 #58
Sometimes I wonder what kind of world we live in. Gravitycollapse Jan 2014 #2
India is especially bad right now Warpy Jan 2014 #6
"Eve teasing" Recursion Jan 2014 #9
Arm the women leftynyc Jan 2014 #24
Interesting thanks...nt Jesus Malverde Jan 2014 #57
Looks like women don't need to travel to India by themselves. LuvNewcastle Jan 2014 #3
Well Dorian Gray Jan 2014 #17
It's called Aerows Jan 2014 #26
I understand that Dorian Gray Jan 2014 #40
I didn't make that up; I've seen reports about it. Here's one: LuvNewcastle Jan 2014 #69
This message was self-deleted by its author LuvNewcastle Jan 2014 #68
I wouldn't go to India now Aerows Jan 2014 #25
I really resent not being able to travel where I want because some men can't control themselves Matariki Jan 2014 #59
Who said anything about a "male escort?" LuvNewcastle Jan 2014 #70
Very wierd Egnever Jan 2014 #4
Imagine it was impossible to get more than 5 feet away from other people Recursion Jan 2014 #7
Isn't China like that also? get the red out Jan 2014 #34
That's what I meant about how it doesn't get to why there's rape in the first place Recursion Jan 2014 #67
Imagine you have no prospects of ever getting a date jeff47 Jan 2014 #18
Oh, well, no prospects of getting a date Aerows Jan 2014 #27
Yes, I never knew get the red out Jan 2014 #35
Luckily Aerows Jan 2014 #43
Good thing you didn't bother reading the entire post. jeff47 Jan 2014 #41
My goodness Aerows Jan 2014 #42
Point to where I am minimizing the problem. jeff47 Jan 2014 #47
What's causing these rapes get the red out Jan 2014 #45
No one's saying they are not causing the rapes. jeff47 Jan 2014 #49
How about other countries, first world? get the red out Jan 2014 #51
And where do I say anything about such countries? jeff47 Jan 2014 #52
It's not supposed to excuse it mythology Jan 2014 #62
sounds like a recipe for wars Matariki Jan 2014 #60
Gotta get rid of the "extra" men somehow..... (nt) jeff47 Jan 2014 #61
I was thinking that the 'hawks' in govenment would want to use all that pent up agression Matariki Jan 2014 #63
I was office-stalked and harassed by an Indian man in the US magical thyme Jan 2014 #66
Gang rape happens all over the world. This isn't about Indian culture, specifically. nt redqueen Jan 2014 #20
obviously Egnever Jan 2014 #21
India is simply in the spotlight. redqueen Jan 2014 #22
Note to self, avoid going to India. Beacool Jan 2014 #5
I hope the response to this is like it was two years ago Recursion Jan 2014 #8
Here's an Indian outlet's article on it (avoid the comments unless you have your barf bag) Recursion Jan 2014 #10
there are already prostitutes there JI7 Jan 2014 #11
i'm at the point where i would not care if they had public hangings or beheadings of rapists JI7 Jan 2014 #12
I have no issue with it get the red out Jan 2014 #38
Start with public castrations. Common Sense Party Jan 2014 #53
India's male problem... shaayecanaan Jan 2014 #13
why didn't China have the rape problem ? JI7 Jan 2014 #14
I'm not certain that they don't... shaayecanaan Jan 2014 #15
Kidnapping and forced marriage of young women is fairly common in tblue37 Jan 2014 #23
yes, there is rape everywhere , but the problem seems much worse in india JI7 Jan 2014 #28
Sort of begs the question temporary311 Jan 2014 #46
it is certainly reported on more compared to many countries that don't have free press JI7 Jan 2014 #50
They hate on women Aerows Jan 2014 #30
I agree completely get the red out Jan 2014 #37
"VILE country" shaayecanaan Jan 2014 #65
Its a fairly predictable outcome... shaayecanaan Jan 2014 #64
Holy shit Dorian Gray Jan 2014 #16
Is it the norm in the UK? In France? Here? redqueen Jan 2014 #32
It makes me sick Dorian Gray Jan 2014 #39
Dominque Strauss Kahn has been able to get away with it JI7 Jan 2014 #44
Does India have a Tourist Board or a Chamber of Commerce? lpbk2713 Jan 2014 #48
Oh sh*t DonCoquixote Jan 2014 #54

XemaSab

(60,212 posts)
1. "...Male attitudes that leave ordinary women vulnerable to attack?"
Wed Jan 15, 2014, 02:20 AM
Jan 2014

As opposed to hookers, or poor women, or women who were wearing the wrong thing, or women who were walking down the wrong street, or women who weren't careful with their drinks, or...?

JI7

(89,173 posts)
29. the girl that was raped and then burned to death, a male politician tried to make excuses
Wed Jan 15, 2014, 04:32 PM
Jan 2014

by suggesting she may have been a prostitute.

redqueen

(115,096 posts)
33. For officials on India to have behaved as they did after a diplomat with limited immunity
Wed Jan 15, 2014, 04:55 PM
Jan 2014

was arrested and processed as per policy (objectionable as that policy is), when officials and politicians there say things like that (and so much worse) about actual victims...

It truly should be waking a whole lot of people up. Especially women.

XemaSab

(60,212 posts)
55. SHE HAD A SLAVE!
Wed Jan 15, 2014, 06:24 PM
Jan 2014

I know we're far from perfect on human rights and labor, but SHE HAD A SLAVE!

Did the Indian government really think that we were just going to let that go?

Matariki

(18,775 posts)
58. That really stuck out for me too.
Wed Jan 15, 2014, 06:50 PM
Jan 2014

Pretty disgusting attitude on the part of whoever wrote that, although they probably don't have a clue what the problem is with that wording.

Warpy

(110,900 posts)
6. India is especially bad right now
Wed Jan 15, 2014, 03:23 AM
Jan 2014

because they have a huge surplus of young males with no marriage prospects thanks to a few decades of favoring male offspring and aborting girls--or worse.

Add to that a deep seated misogyny that goes back millennia, and it's a recipe for extreme sexual violence against women.

About all they can do about it at this point is to try to identify the guilty and scoop them off the street. Everything else will take time.

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
9. "Eve teasing"
Wed Jan 15, 2014, 04:10 AM
Jan 2014

That's right, there's a "cute" name for random, pervasive street harassment of women by men in India (particularly in Delhi -- Mumbai, Chennai, Kolkata, etc. aren't nearly as bad). It's constant, and like all systemic assertions of power it very subtly gets under the victim's and perpetrator's skin until people start making excuses for it. (Not that the US doesn't have our own problems about this...)

LuvNewcastle

(16,820 posts)
3. Looks like women don't need to travel to India by themselves.
Wed Jan 15, 2014, 02:28 AM
Jan 2014

If I were a woman, I'd probably avoid India altogether. I don't want to go because of all the filth. They don't practice good sanitation over there, and they piss and shit in public. Fuck that.

Dorian Gray

(13,469 posts)
40. I understand that
Wed Jan 15, 2014, 05:09 PM
Jan 2014

WIth the police letting the aggressors go, I'd think twice as well.

But you didn't talk about the filth and piss and shit on the streets.

LuvNewcastle

(16,820 posts)
69. I didn't make that up; I've seen reports about it. Here's one:
Thu Jan 16, 2014, 04:46 AM
Jan 2014
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002814887


Sixty per cent of the "global total" who do not have access to toilets live in India, and hence are forced to defecate in the open. In actual numbers, sixty per cent translates to 626 million. This makes India the number one country in the world where open defecation is practised. Indonesia with 63 million is a far second!

At 949 million in 2010 worldwide, vast majority of people practising open defecation live in rural areas. Though the number of rural people practising open defecation has reduced by 234 million in 2010 than in 1990, “those that continue to do so tend to be concentrated in a few countries, including India,” notes the 2012 update report of UNICEF and the World Health Organisation (WHO).

...

More than half of the 2.5 billion people without improved sanitation live in India or China. The high figure prevails even as four out of 10 people who have gained access to improved sanitation since 1990 live in these two countries.

“Rapidly-modernising India is drowning in its own excreta,” notes the New Delhi-based Sunita Narain, Director General of the Centre for Science and Environment in a Comment piece published on June 14 in Nature.

Response to Dorian Gray (Reply #17)

Matariki

(18,775 posts)
59. I really resent not being able to travel where I want because some men can't control themselves
Wed Jan 15, 2014, 06:55 PM
Jan 2014

or have some kind of problem with women. I really resent that the answer is "women don't need to travel to India by themselves". Or the only way I can travel to many parts of the world would be with a male escort.

LuvNewcastle

(16,820 posts)
70. Who said anything about a "male escort?"
Thu Jan 16, 2014, 04:51 AM
Jan 2014

I just said "by themselves." Two women, a group of women, a woman and her boyfriend, it makes no difference. But in some parts of the world, a woman is in a lot of danger when she's alone. That's true in a lot of places in the U.S. too, but it's worse in some countries than others.

 

Egnever

(21,506 posts)
4. Very wierd
Wed Jan 15, 2014, 02:31 AM
Jan 2014

I just cant wrap my head around 15 guys getting together to rape someone. I don't understand Indian culture at all. How does it get to the point where that many people get together to do such a thing.

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
7. Imagine it was impossible to get more than 5 feet away from other people
Wed Jan 15, 2014, 04:05 AM
Jan 2014

I mean, literally, everywhere you went, you were always within 5 feet of other people. Bathing. Going to the bathroom. Sleeping. Eating. Working. Walking to work. Every minute, of every day. You still live with your family after you get married, and you will continue to, for the rest of your life. You don't have "private" thoughts or feelings; everybody knows everything about your life all the time.

(That doesn't explain the rape problem at all, but it explains the "gang" part of it: everything that happens in India, at least in the cities, is done by a crowd.)

get the red out

(13,459 posts)
34. Isn't China like that also?
Wed Jan 15, 2014, 04:57 PM
Jan 2014

They don't appear to have the horrific rape problem that India does, at least from what we see reported.

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
67. That's what I meant about how it doesn't get to why there's rape in the first place
Wed Jan 15, 2014, 10:24 PM
Jan 2014

Just the gang nature of it once it happens.

That said, China's rape problem is also pretty horrific, and even less reported than India's.

jeff47

(26,549 posts)
18. Imagine you have no prospects of ever getting a date
Wed Jan 15, 2014, 02:05 PM
Jan 2014

much less have a relationship, get some sex, get married, and the whole 9 yards.

Lots of people in India have selectively aborted and "otherwise eliminated" girls. As a result, today there are too many men and not enough women.

IMO, these events are caused by a hopelessness on the relationship front, coupled with the society's misogyny.

ETA: Post 13 covers this in more detail.

get the red out

(13,459 posts)
35. Yes, I never knew
Wed Jan 15, 2014, 04:58 PM
Jan 2014

Too many men means a vile free-for-all with no expectations of humanity to be placed on anyone, who knew?

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
43. Luckily
Wed Jan 15, 2014, 05:16 PM
Jan 2014

we have some people to "explain" it to us, so that we "understand" that it isn't as bad as it sounds.

jeff47

(26,549 posts)
41. Good thing you didn't bother reading the entire post.
Wed Jan 15, 2014, 05:11 PM
Jan 2014

Or the article in post #13. 37M more men than women isn't a healthy society.

And good thing you invented the word "excuse" out of thin air.

Otherwise it would look like you're just knee-jerking and not bothering to find out what's causing these rapes.

You can't fix what you don't bother to understand. And note that "understand" does not mean "excuse".

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
42. My goodness
Wed Jan 15, 2014, 05:15 PM
Jan 2014

every vile thing in the world that happens, you show up to minimize or "explain" it to the rest of us so we "understand" it.

jeff47

(26,549 posts)
47. Point to where I am minimizing the problem.
Wed Jan 15, 2014, 05:25 PM
Jan 2014

When this kind of imbalance has happened in other places, crime by the SOL men shoots up, including rape. Threatening them with harsher prison sentences isn't going to fix it. After all, China has a similar problem, and they have some extremely harsh penalties for rape.

But hey, I'm sure ignoring underlying causes is gonna solve the problem real soon now.

get the red out

(13,459 posts)
45. What's causing these rapes
Wed Jan 15, 2014, 05:23 PM
Jan 2014

Men are "causing these rapes"; they do not see women as human beings, they see them as property, things. They feel they can do with women what they want, and generally they CAN, with impunity.

India has allowed women to be considered NOTHING by turning a blind eye to this gender ratio problem. Now they don't give a damn about the attitudes toward women that hatred of females has bred into the men. The men want to rape women and feel they have a right.

But MEN are CAUSING the rapes.

jeff47

(26,549 posts)
49. No one's saying they are not causing the rapes.
Wed Jan 15, 2014, 05:28 PM
Jan 2014

Quote where I am saying the men are not causing the rapes.

The men are also not poofing into existence and raping. They are in a massively misogynistic society that has screwed them over with gender imbalance, leading to the anger and resentment that causes them to commit more crimes, including rape. But they are committing the rapes.

You can't fix the men without fixing the society that created them. Because even if you "fix" one man, that society will have created more in the meantime.

get the red out

(13,459 posts)
51. How about other countries, first world?
Wed Jan 15, 2014, 05:40 PM
Jan 2014

India's culture is FUCKED, so far as women go, I will gladly give you that, I believe that no woman should go there as a tourist for that reason.

But there are gang rapes in first world countries also, so it can't always be growing up with your potential mates being aborted or murdered at birth, or that the whole country despises women?

jeff47

(26,549 posts)
52. And where do I say anything about such countries?
Wed Jan 15, 2014, 05:46 PM
Jan 2014

India has a specific problem arising from India's culture. It's created 37M more men than women and is rife with misogyny.

Other countries, including the first world, are about 50%-50% women-to-men. The level of misogyny varies. Gang rapes in those countries are not being caused by a very large gender imbalance.

Since the subject at hand is rapes in India, I'm discussing India's problem.

 

mythology

(9,527 posts)
62. It's not supposed to excuse it
Wed Jan 15, 2014, 07:00 PM
Jan 2014

But there is a distinct sociological history that shows repeatedly, when a society has a gender imbalance of too many men, things like crime and war go up. Trying to understand things is not actually the same as excusing it.

Sort of like if you go to the doctor and say my arm hurts, you need to get to the cause of the pain because that's how you treat the underlying problem. You wouldn't put a cast on somebody with a cut and you wouldn't put antibiotics on a broken bone because it won't solve the problem.

Matariki

(18,775 posts)
63. I was thinking that the 'hawks' in govenment would want to use all that pent up agression
Wed Jan 15, 2014, 07:00 PM
Jan 2014

and also what you said. In the context of previous posts about the gender imbalance creating a class of unemployed and violence-prone young males.

 

magical thyme

(14,881 posts)
66. I was office-stalked and harassed by an Indian man in the US
Wed Jan 15, 2014, 08:10 PM
Jan 2014

He was married with a child. Creepy, hideous man made my working life hell for 8 months.

And at another company where I worked, the founders were a married Indian couple. That man fixated on the HR director. His stalking was so bad that her boss and her assistant worked out a schedule so that the director was never alone when he was in the building. One or the other of them was always with her for her protection. Their entire schedule based on protecting a stalking target. Another creepy, hideous man with zero respect for women.

So for those 2 at least, the prospect of not getting a date was irrelevent to their harassing behavior. Mysogeny, yes.

 

Egnever

(21,506 posts)
21. obviously
Wed Jan 15, 2014, 03:22 PM
Jan 2014

it does seem to be much more common in india though. At least at this level. I doubt in my entire life i have heard of as many gang rapes with so many men imvolved as i have in the past year or two out of india.

redqueen

(115,096 posts)
22. India is simply in the spotlight.
Wed Jan 15, 2014, 04:00 PM
Jan 2014

A few years ago, France was rocked by a trial for repeated gang rapes. It is one of the few countries which counts the number of gang rapes. Most countries don't bother. It's estimated that 25% of reported rapes are gang rapes.

And that's just the reported ones. Think of how many girls and women just disappear. Some are sold to human traffickers, some are murdered. None of it is very big news, for some reason. How many have heard of the gang rapes in France? It is sad to think of the reason we hear more about these crimes when they happen in countries like India, Pakistan, Africa, Brazil, etc.

Racism and misogyny are issues that we can't afford to ignore.

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
10. Here's an Indian outlet's article on it (avoid the comments unless you have your barf bag)
Wed Jan 15, 2014, 04:18 AM
Jan 2014
http://www.firstpost.com/india/51-yr-old-danish-tourist-gangraped-near-new-delhi-station-15-detained-1340725.html

The first thing people say?

"Legalize prostitution. That will solve it."

"No, that won't work... not everybody could afford a prostitute."

Sigh...

JI7

(89,173 posts)
11. there are already prostitutes there
Wed Jan 15, 2014, 05:13 AM
Jan 2014

i don't think it's totally illegal. i think it's considered "decriminalized" at least.

and they still have problems that people claim will go away if it was legal. at an even worse level than places that do make it illegal.

JI7

(89,173 posts)
12. i'm at the point where i would not care if they had public hangings or beheadings of rapists
Wed Jan 15, 2014, 05:16 AM
Jan 2014

i'm not saying i would support it. but i would not feel bad for the rapists .

shaayecanaan

(6,068 posts)
13. India's male problem...
Wed Jan 15, 2014, 05:21 AM
Jan 2014

The authors adopted a Chinese term, guang gun-er (“bare branches”), for unmarried men from age 15 to their mid-30s who have limited prospects for employment. This group, which is larger in countries where sex selection is prevalent, usually “commits the preponderance of violence within a society,” according to the report.

In a marriage market where women are scarce and thus able to “marry up,” certain characteristics of young surplus males are easily and accurately predicted. They are liable to come from the lowest socioeconomic class, be un- or underemployed, live a fairly nomadic or transient lifestyle with few ties to the communities in which they are working, and generally live and socialize with other bachelors. In sum, these young surplus males may be considered, relatively speaking, losers in societal competition.


http://india.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/01/16/indias-man-problem/?_r=0

tblue37

(64,979 posts)
23. Kidnapping and forced marriage of young women is fairly common in
Wed Jan 15, 2014, 04:15 PM
Jan 2014

rural areas of China. Just because the girls are forced to marry their kidnappers doesn't mean it is not rape.

temporary311

(954 posts)
46. Sort of begs the question
Wed Jan 15, 2014, 05:23 PM
Jan 2014

Of whether it "seems" worse because it is, in fact, actually worse, or is merely reported on more.

JI7

(89,173 posts)
50. it is certainly reported on more compared to many countries that don't have free press
Wed Jan 15, 2014, 05:34 PM
Jan 2014

one thing about india is that they are able to get access to media easily. this is why we the rape cases that happen in even poor small villages that seems far removed from the more busy areas can still easily send news of internationally .

but the way i see it is that even assuming the rate was lower compared to many other places, it's still a huge problem within that country.

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
30. They hate on women
Wed Jan 15, 2014, 04:32 PM
Jan 2014

and it is allowed because they hate on themselves. Suddenly it's the woman's fault because she won't "give it up" - not that their government and social attitudes caused this problem.

get the red out

(13,459 posts)
37. I agree completely
Wed Jan 15, 2014, 05:01 PM
Jan 2014

Stockholm syndrome in the women. Inhumanity in the men, the government, and social attitudes.

India is a cesspool of teeming misogyny and human indifference. VILE country.

shaayecanaan

(6,068 posts)
65. "VILE country"
Wed Jan 15, 2014, 07:52 PM
Jan 2014

Well, they'd have to get up pretty early to beat your shithole of a country in the woman-killing stakes.

2 million dead women in Indochina
1 million dead women in North Korea
100,000 dead women in Iraq

but thats okay because it was good noble brown woman-killing by white people such as yourself.

shaayecanaan

(6,068 posts)
64. Its a fairly predictable outcome...
Wed Jan 15, 2014, 07:30 PM
Jan 2014

you have large numbers of men with no prospects for steady employment, marriage, children or property, and therefore no investment in the status quo. It is the recipe for this sort of behaviour as well as many others.

Dorian Gray

(13,469 posts)
16. Holy shit
Wed Jan 15, 2014, 07:42 AM
Jan 2014

this is crazy. Up until about a year ago, I didn't think that this type of violence was the norm in India, but the number of cases that we've heard of is just sad.

Dorian Gray

(13,469 posts)
39. It makes me sick
Wed Jan 15, 2014, 05:07 PM
Jan 2014

to think of any woman attacked or raped. This violently, repeatedly, by any number of attackers is so horrible.

JI7

(89,173 posts)
44. Dominque Strauss Kahn has been able to get away with it
Wed Jan 15, 2014, 05:18 PM
Jan 2014

including in the United States where he raped a maid.

and you had even people on DU try to defend him and claim it is all a Sarkozy conspiracy against Kahn. if sarkozy is so powerful he should have been able to easily use those powers to win re-election.

lpbk2713

(42,696 posts)
48. Does India have a Tourist Board or a Chamber of Commerce?
Wed Jan 15, 2014, 05:27 PM
Jan 2014



It looks like they have their work cut out for them.


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